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Author Topic: 25 years of punk
rasmus
malcontent
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posted 19 August 2001 02:49 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the other 70's An article from the Post. Honestly, I haven't read it yet, it doesn't work too well in my browser.


25 years of punk



Any punk fans here?


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 19 August 2001 07:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely... no, relatively. There was (and is) only a small minority of the music I liked. I usually wanted, and want, something more melodic. (To anyone who notices a contradiction with my new-found interest in techno -- tough!)

But the punk spirit, the DIY, who-gives-a-damn-what-THEY-tell-us ideas and practices -- where would we be without that?

By the way, Lester Bangs was calling certain rockers punk in about '71 or so -- the Seeds and Count Five (from '66), the Stooges, the MC5, etc. He even bracketed the Velvets with this crowd, although they were much better musicians. Mostly bands that the Ramones, Dolls, Pistols and so forth looked back to.

Legs McNeil titled his magazine Punk only later -- without acknowledgement, so far as I know.

So by some reckonings it ought to be 35 years of punk. (I haven't read the Post article yet either).

[ August 19, 2001: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
sean s.
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posted 19 August 2001 07:15 PM      Profile for sean s.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In general punk tends to be a lot more thoughtful than the vulgar materialism of Ecko/ Phat Farm/ Triple 5 Soul/ Rocawear hip-hop. But there is some thoughtful, non-materialistic hip-hop (e.g. dead prez).

Smart retailers like the Gap have identified grunge and punk as growing trends, and have now filled their stores with the stuff. However, if what you want is a "used jeans look" I have a hot tip for you - you don't have to get your used jeans at the Gap.


From: montreal | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Liam McCarthy
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posted 19 August 2001 07:56 PM      Profile for Liam McCarthy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The logic in that article is pretty painful. "Something wasn't punk unless someone at the time called it punk." This is like saying the sabre tooth tiger wasn't a cat because no one was calling it that back then. The Sex Pistols have always sucked, and are "The Gap" of Punk. They were a boy band put together by a manager in a fashion not unlike The Back Street Boys. If you want high quality punk go back to its origins in Detroit Rock City. Listen to Iggy Pop, burn the Union Jack, and keep the faith 'cause I don't want it.
From: Windsor, Ont. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
sean s.
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posted 19 August 2001 08:03 PM      Profile for sean s.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Personally I enjoy the Sex Pistols, but to each his/ her own!
From: montreal | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
MJ
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posted 19 August 2001 09:06 PM      Profile for MJ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And, off-topic digression, there's a hell of a lot of thoughtful hip-hop that's been made besides dead prez. Public Enemy, Arrested Development (pop rap, yeah, but thoughtful), Talib Kweli, KRS-One, Black Sheep, X-Clan, De La Soul, etc. etc.
From: Around. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 20 August 2001 10:40 AM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My understanding of music is embarassingly unsophisticated and probably that's what appeals to me so much about punk. A reaction to punk rock is visceral; it grabs you by the guts and shakes you.

Though my Sex Pistols and Forgotton Rebels cassettes now collect dust under the bed, the Clash still inspire me.

NB - anybody in Toronto going to see Joe Strummer & the Mescalaros in October?


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
girlincrisis
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posted 01 September 2001 07:00 PM      Profile for girlincrisis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Who were 'pink' for christ's sake!!
anyone read Dick Hebdgie's work on punk as subculture?? interesting shit...qutie outdated now..but still good.
i looove punk!! from old skool to sk8 punk!!! anger is good.

From: van city | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jared
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posted 05 September 2001 12:46 AM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How could I have missed this thread for so long...

quote:
The Sex Pistols have always sucked, and are "The Gap" of Punk. They were a boy band put together by a manager in a fashion not unlike The Back Street Boys.

I end up getting into this argument every time I wear my Johnny Rotten tee - perhaps that's why I put it on in the first place. As opposed to when my brother wears his Ramones shirt, and is on the recieving end of countless good natured "gabba gabba heys", but I digress. Agreed, Malcolm McLaren formed the Pistols to gain noteriety and promote his clothing boutique. I'd argue, however, that it was noteriety and infamy rather than pure capital nutbar McLaren was seeking (see his campaign for mayor of London last year). Surely he realized that the combination of the initial popular shock wave and undiluted nihlism of his clients could lead only to a short and limited shelf life. If he really wanted to get rich in that era, why not take on one of the countless, chart-topping arena rock bands (you know, the Xeroxed super-rich guys with moustaches). Comparing the Backstreet Boys and Sex Pistols, based solely on how the groups came into being, is specious to say the least. It leaves out both their impact at the time and their legacy years later. The former is little more than an unthreatening, corporate trojan-horse for everything from hamburgers to hair gel. And I seriously doubt that we'll be seeing a Backstreet Boys box set ten years down the line. The Sex Pistols, on the other hand, encapsulated the frustrations and hopelessness of the outsiders in class-conscious British society. Moreover, they were the tonic for the sickening hedonism music fans were obviously tiring of from both disco and the aforementioned cock rockers. Plus, they scared the shit out of the "establishment" (for lack of a less-cliched term). Over twenty years on, the record still sounds great too. Though I wish John Lydon would go into exile or something already ...every time he's on TV with his hair still spiked and green at forty-whatever, I feel the need to take a shower in order to seem clean again. Oh, that's the other point I forgot to touch on above: the Backstreet Boys are hapless pawns of that fat guy. Lydon, on the other hand, is a schrewd businessman, love him or hate him, and wound up doing some decent work with PIL.

Re: intelligent hip-hop. Nobody forget my favourite, Philadelphia's Roots! Or Del the Funky Homosapien.

It's disturbing in the extreme to see the "punk" label being bandied about so brazenly in this day and age. Loud, fast, and snotty does not a punk record make. It's all about making the power's that be uncomfortable, and this radio-friendly sludge of today simply doesn't pass muster. To me, something like Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On" is far more punk than a sky-high stack of Blink 182 records.

"I'm not much like my generation;
Their music only hurts my ears."
-Kasey Chambers

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Jared ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 05 September 2001 02:35 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jared, you are an extremely articulate writer. Keep going!
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 05 September 2001 02:04 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Re: intelligent hip-hop. Nobody forget my favourite, Philadelphia's Roots! Or Del the Funky Homosapien.

And my one-time favourite, sadly defunct after one album: the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy.

Disposable they proved to be, I guess.

"Hypocrisy
Is the greatest luxury
Raise the double standard!"


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
MJ
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posted 05 September 2001 02:24 PM      Profile for MJ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Word on the Roots, Jared.
From: Around. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 05 September 2001 04:52 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ditto.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
girlincrisis
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posted 05 September 2001 10:05 PM      Profile for girlincrisis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Del fucking rocks!
From: van city | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 05 September 2001 10:28 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And I seriously doubt that we'll be seeing a Backstreet Boys box set ten years down the line.

I'm afraid that's wishful thinking. As a middle aged punk-turned-geezer witnessing the rise of 80's nostalgia, I can tell you that there's more Abba than Ramones around, more Cher and Elton John than Blondie and Iggy, and far more kitsch than classics.

In summary, the Backstreet Boys will be haunting you for the rest of your life. Trust me on this.

[ September 05, 2001: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 06 September 2001 01:40 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I can tell you that there's more Abba than Ramones around, more Cher and Elton John than Blondie and Iggy, and far more kitsch than classics.

Yeah, but that's good. See, when all this garbage is revived us geezers can look all disgusted and say "bah, I couldn't stand that stuff then and I don't like it now. Real music was like..." and go on about Iggy, still feeling like we have our edge.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 29 September 2001 08:29 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The best punk band is old school american, the dead kennedy's. dead prez and the coup are the only two hip hop bands i like besides rage against the machine and red dagger. The only problem with punk is that there aren't any socialist groups that get their name out.There used to be tonnes of little bands that followed the marxist view.
The scenes really died up here, we get a couple mixed genre shows a year in sudbury.

From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jared
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posted 01 October 2001 01:08 AM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There used to be tonnes of little bands that followed the marxist view.

I hear you, but there still are (well, if not full-on Marxist, at the very least genuinelly socially conscientious). Many websites and print 'zines (which I suppose would be harder to come by outside of a major center) are a treasure trove of info. My suggestion is just keep your eyes open and stay the hell away from the beaten path; it's worked for me alright.

Here's the real problem: the gradual "frathouse-ification" of the punk moniker has rather unfairly lumped the true purveyors of the sound in with the wannabe mallrats.

*edited to add* Does anybody else see the beautiful irony in the Pennywise tune "Fuck Authority" becoming a summer commercial radio staple? Sorry for the digression, but commercial radio is my mortal enemy.

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jared ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 01 October 2001 09:18 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only socialist punk I've heard of is The Strike and I'm not too crazy about their sound, surprisingly i've found a lot of radical hip-hop but no punk. If all my friends who played instruments hadn't took off I might start up a band again (the greatest thing about punk is that everyone can participate, that and the zine culture it invented.)Of course I don't think I'd be brave enough to take to the stage now that I've quit drinking.
From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 01 October 2001 09:25 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The only socialist punk I've heard of is The Strike and I'm not too crazy about their sound, surprisingly i've found a lot of radical hip-hop but no punk.

You could always look up the Mekons, a Manchester band. Dunno if they're still going, but they were as of a couple of years back, battered but unbowed after 20 years.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
girlincrisis
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posted 02 October 2001 07:16 PM      Profile for girlincrisis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jared-i dunno if i totally agree with what you were saying about the 'authentic' punk versus the 'fratboy' punk. look at Green Day..they certainly DID NOT start out that way...neither did Pennywise...these groups have been co-opted by corporate media and like every other facet of sub-cultural movement, politics and style, it has been commodified to the point where all we see (or i should say, I SEE as a woman) is this correlation between 'punk' and (male) aggression. the politcs don't mean shit!
yes, it is rather ironic that Pennywise had a 'commercial' hit "fuck authority" (personally i don't buy their albums anymore), but they have obviously become complacent with that very system that seeks to only look at their value in terms of capital gain and profits (ie. record sales)....
personally, i have much more respect for those groups that have chosen quite adamantly to REMOVE themselves from this process of corporatization, like Bikini Kill. this does not mean that the media and music industry won't find 'copycat acts' or attempt to categorize their messages. ey, i could go on here..maybe i'm just throwing out random ideas on this topic, hoping to facilitate some discussion because i see this as very problematic.
interestingly enough, i was watching Next TV i think it's called on City the other night and they had a segment on teens as consumers in a commdified culture and the problems that martketers had in trying to pin them down as a homogenous group that could be easily accessed and thus targeted for cultural consumption. the best line that i heard went to the effect that they'll never be able to do it because teens will search for that which is not easily duplicated, so to speak. they are in precarious place in their lives where they are seeking out their 'differences'...sense of identity and so forth.
i think this relates to the notion of 'punk' as we see it in it's commodified form, such as the t-shirts that say PUNK across the front....sorry, i'm really digressing here but i am extremely fascinated with this topic...i mean, does the kid that wears that shirt any less 'punk' then the guy who wears the Mohawk or espouses DIY ethics? my 'punk' may be different from someone elses 'punk'...
please respond!!!!!!

From: van city | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 02 October 2001 07:56 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
no matter what you will be assimilated, quicker than ever nowaday's according to naomi klein's book no logo.I won't say that pennywise isn't punk (but they deserve it for doing a lame beachboys cover) nor rancid, gob, nofx or any other band on a major label. I'll just won't feel represented by their expresion regardless of what genre they like to put themselves under the local scene is always going to be the best anyway , even in a crappy little town like sudbury one can find some hard rocking mutants and they didn't get that way from any t-shirt or mowhawk.
From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Liam McCarthy
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posted 02 October 2001 09:00 PM      Profile for Liam McCarthy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You're looking for socialist punk/oi bands? check out:

Angelic Upstarts
The Blaggers
The Clash (I know, I know, they don't exist anymore)
The Dils (with songs like I hate the Rich and Class War, you can't go wrong)
DOA (Vancouver's own)
Dropkick Murphy's (Sing Loud, Sing Proud)
Oi Polloi (well they're anarchists but close enough)
The Oppressed
Redskins (not really punk but hey)
SLF (OK maybe they just rock, most of their songs call for peace in Northern Ireland)

Wow maybe you're right. I can't think off the top of my head of many new lefty punk bands. Then again I'm out of touch and I listen to a lot more Cash and Social D these days.


From: Windsor, Ont. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
machiavellian
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posted 02 October 2001 09:29 PM      Profile for machiavellian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know, it's the undertone of aggression that kind of bothers me - I'm married to a reformed (sort of) punk and there's a lot of anger and hatred in a good portion of the genre and its fans. I'd rather be at a rave feeling the love than slam-dancing (or rather, moshing, as the 90's have it) any day - too many angry young men. Ouch.

Punk - emphasis on rebellion and individualism good. Violent tendencies - bad.

And the modern "happy" punk bands...well, they seem kind of generic. At the moment I prefer electronica, Bjork, and I still love Depeche Mode.

(PS Kick-ass video - "We Come 1" by Faithless - "I am the left eye, you're the right - would it not be madness to fight").


From: Peace River (no, not actually in the river, silly) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 02 October 2001 10:20 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think you've been in too many mosh pits, I've seen a lot more caring at a local show (when a big guy like myself falls down because of an even bigger guy even a twenty pound girl will give me a hand up so that i'm not trampled on) than I would anywhere else.Theres a lot of caring and kind heartedness that I really respect about my fellow mutants at a punk rawk show, or anywhere they may be found, when i used to smoke they'd be the most likely to give you their last dart, for example.
P.S thanks for the list of bands, i'll look them up.a few other examples of punk kindness.
most shows are run to just break even here in sudbury with discounts for those who bring canned goods. Tonnes of kids volunteer to take your coats, load/unload equipment etc and miss out on the show for the benefit of others.Half the punk rock scene has been cleaning up downtown creeks and what not and been trying to keep sudbury activists out of jail for being in the same place as the police in quebec city by raising legal funds.Theres a lot of love it's just not directed at racist's and all things oppressive.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: bandit ]


From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 02 October 2001 10:59 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd so much rather be stomping around angrily at a punk (or more likely in my case) industrial show or night than experiencing fake rave-love. So far as I've seen and heard, the love runs out when the E does.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 03 October 2001 10:51 AM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you want to feel the love get "chickenshit conformist like your parents by the dead kennedys". It's sort of the anti-trend song that agrees with you to some extent and really put's his finger on why the 80's scene died and why punk gets a bad wrap.
Good old jello predicted it in the 80's and really cared about change. His music as a whole is more funny than it is angry.Nowaday's he does really funny and inspiring political spoken word, DOA by the way is on his alternative tentacles album.

[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: bandit ]


From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
girlincrisis
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posted 04 October 2001 01:44 PM      Profile for girlincrisis     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
bandit-so, you find that turning to the 'local scene' is a way to find community that adheres to your own beliefs and sense of identity? interesting...as someone who has been very involved with various aspects of independent mediums (through zines and affiliations with 'local musical groups') i find this can be problematic also. what kind of 'scene' are you talking about? i don't wanna generalize here, but i have found that at the local you can have a lot of elitism and politics around who can be a 'member' of that local scene...that is why part of me had to break free from sub-cultural communities because there were too many silent rules...
and is there anything inherently WRONG with assimilation? i know you said that that will happen anyway..are you suggesting that there is a relationship between them? that you can function ethically in between somewhere?
i also find your statements about local scenes somewhat problematic in that you seem to be suggesting that there is something more 'aunthentic' about punk at this level..i don't think that is necessarily true. i could be simplifying here..at any rate...this is an interesting discussion...

From: van city | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 04 October 2001 01:57 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE TURN THAT GODAWFUL NOISE DOWN!!!!

thank you.


From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 04 October 2001 02:09 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Someone playing Britney Spears a little too loudly at your house Dawna?
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 04 October 2001 02:40 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
'Hit me baby one more time!'

Nothing is worse than hearing that covered at a Persian restaurant while waiting for the real entertainment - the belly dancer.


From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 04 October 2001 02:42 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I once saw the Crash Test Dummies perform a cover of Hit Me Baby One More Time. It was TOO funny.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 04 October 2001 02:49 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya, well, pass the kebab.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 October 2001 03:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Dawna, that wasn't 1001 Arabian Nights that you went to, was it (at about Steeles and Yonge)? I went there once and really enjoyed it. They didn't cover any Britney Spears when I went, though. Incidently, the belly dancer was fabulous. Somehow, the idea of punk being performed in popular Persian music form really tickles my funny bone...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
guy cybershy
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posted 04 October 2001 05:27 PM      Profile for guy cybershy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If any of you would like to hear some punk rock with a leftist bent I would suggest the Gang of Four's "Entertainment", which still sounds as good as it when it was released more than 20 years ago.
From: Calgary | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
bandit
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posted 04 October 2001 09:35 PM      Profile for bandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
girlincrisis-It doesn't really adhere to my beleifs since many are anarchists and I kind of found the ideoligy a bit too utopian.Nor does it reflect my Identity because I gave up the mowhawk, and began tucking in my wallet chain years ago and dress pretty non- generic.I'm into the tunes and the atmosphere and regardless of ideology there are some extremely thoughtful and thought provoking people at the shows.
as for iletism or silent rules of who can and cannot take part in the scene I wouldn't agree at least in sudbury. My personal definition is who ever takes part beyond the spectator level is part of the said scene. If you volunteer yourself to the local scene than your in my good books. I think the only illetism their would be is when bands or whatnot have this "whats in it for me" attitude. I was quite upset when some jerks were concerned about getting paid after a low turnout and refused to play when the kids organising were already in the hole $500 for the hall, they said "screw you" and began letting in anyone who came for free and the other groups played without a fuss.we just hold these things to keep us occupied no one can be expected to break even half the time and when they do people usually get in for free once they break even if it isn't a charity show.
I'm unsure what your asking me with the assimilation question if you could better explain it to my simple mind I'll gladly respond.
as for the local scene being more authentic, maybe not but I know that my money is going towards something more meaningfull than a big record label or some one person who may not need it, local goes either to more shows that we all enjoy or to a local charity like canned food drives, university radio, or whatever. I know how as soon as some bands can afford to shower their called sell outs, but my beefs with those who don't lift a finger besides to make their public image look better (rancid for tibetan freedom,etc).
personally if your band has nothing to say than I have no use for it, that's why I got into punk in the first place.Thanks for your response, I rarely get one when I post. I guess people don't want to dignify my dumb posts with an answer or something (theres a lot of smart people here).

From: sudbury | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

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