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Author Topic: David Frum: Christian Fundamentalist?
jeff house
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posted 11 July 2005 12:39 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Apparently, he thinks belief in Intelligent Design is compatible with belief in evolution. Far worse, though, is the next comment, in which he argues that publiceducation should simply reinforce existing prejudices:

quote:

Whether he personally believes in evolution: "I do believe in evolution."

What he thinks of intelligent design: "If intelligent design means that evolution occurs under some divine guidance, I believe that."

How evolution should be taught in public schools: "I don't believe that anything that offends nine-tenths of the American public should be taught in public schools. ... Christianity is the faith of nine-tenths of the American public. ... I don't believe that public schools should embark on teaching anything that offends Christian principle."


I guess we will need some sort of super-ayatollah who will AUTHORITATIVELY tell us "what offends Christian principle." Goodbye to separation of church and state.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=36lbcs5H7aTsisv%2FkIB4i3%3D%3D

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 11 July 2005 12:44 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would Super-Ayatollah be a cabinet position?
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Sisyphus
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posted 11 July 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well of course, in a truly free and democratic society such as that championed by our Conservatives and the Republicans, we must all vote to find out what constitutes human rights and scientific truth. Clearly, objective verification runs counter to God's will.

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: Sisyphus ]


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skdadl
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posted 11 July 2005 12:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where did you find this stuff, jeff house?
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EFA
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posted 11 July 2005 12:58 PM      Profile for EFA        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since when is 9/10ths of the population Christian?

Drift: I think there's an element of magic to evolution. I wouldn't call it "divine guidance" but I think there's room for a little something. Synchronicity?

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: EFA ]


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 11 July 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Meanwhile, Douglas Fisher that fine 'phobe is touting him as Conservative leader.

quote:
Now let us look briefly at a Tory alternative to put up against the brilliant and sophisticated Michael Ignatieff.

I suggest David Frum. Like Ignatieff, he is a star in the U.S. Like Ignatieff, he is from one of Canada's best-known families, his late mother Barbara a heroine to a generation of Canadians through CBC radio and TV in the 1970s and '80s.

Frum is a formidable debater and every bit as much a global analyst as Ignatieff, and one who has spent even more time examining and advocating conservatively-minded political programs for Canadians. Could he be the Conservative answer to the Liberal challenge posed by Ignatieff?


A slight problem with Fisher's "reasoning." Canadians to whom Barbara Frum is a heroine despise David Frum with every fibre of their being.


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EFA
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posted 11 July 2005 01:15 PM      Profile for EFA        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
A slight problem with Fisher's "reasoning." Canadians to whom Barbara Frum is a heroine despise David Frum with every fibre of their being.

Not me. I adored Barbara Frum and think there's hope yet for her son.


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 11 July 2005 01:17 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, but do you have any justification whatsoever for your hope?
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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 11 July 2005 01:19 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Frum is a formidable debater...

Only if your definition of "formidable debater" doesn't include a reliance on facts.


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EFA
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posted 11 July 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for EFA        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
Yes, but do you have any justification whatsoever for your hope?

Hope needs no justification. But I will say that I once saw Junior being interviewed when he said something like "My mother? Let me tell you about my mother. My mother had absolute faith in people's ability to ...." (Sorry, can't remember the rest nor the context except that it was about glorious free enterprise). At that point, my friend who was watching with me remarked drily "Oh, yeah, I'm sure Barbara was all for axing the CBC."


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fern hill
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posted 11 July 2005 01:27 PM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for my morning giggle. I'm imagining a leaders' debate with Frum, Ignatieff, Duceppe and Jack. Wot fun!
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lagatta
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posted 11 July 2005 01:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We've finally found a genuine self-hating Jew.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 11 July 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

A majority (certainly not nine-tenths) of North Americans may be Christians (in theory), but who says a majority of Christians have any trouble at all with this silliest of issues? David Frum? Thanks, but no.

I enjoyed reading that range of responses, though. Heh. Some of those guys are such snobs -- it must have driven them bananas to have to take the questions seriously.

As usual, I was amused by Buckley, in spite of myself. When asked which disciplines should be teaching "intelligent design," he answered history and etymology.

Good answer, actually.

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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Reality. Bites.
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posted 11 July 2005 02:17 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know how anyone could look at female breasts and male genitals and think we're the product of intelligent design.

"OK, so we'll make this creature that needs to chase things in order to eat, and has to run to avoid being eaten. And then, just for fun, we'll give the creature parts that flop around whenever it runs and make them super-sensitive."

We're the product of intelligent design like New Coke was.


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Betray My Secrets
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posted 11 July 2005 03:06 PM      Profile for Betray My Secrets     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
David Frum would be even scarier as Prime Minister than Doris or Presto.

[ 11 July 2005: Message edited by: Betray My Secrets ]


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johnpauljones
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posted 11 July 2005 03:08 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
not to belittle the importance of the thread but should the thread title not be changed since Frum is not Christian.

I am not trying to split hairs but can a non-christian be a christian fundamentalist?


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 11 July 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
David Frum is a genius, a true debating champion, and intellectual force to be feared by we on the left.

With Frum at the helm, the tories would surely sweep to power and become Canada's natural ruling party.

We should all be very afraid. This could be the end of progressive politics in Canada.


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jeff house
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posted 11 July 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. Johnpauljones, it hasn't escaped me that Frum is Jewish. But when he says stuff like this:

quote:
I don't believe that public schools should embark on teaching anything that offends Christian principle."

then he seems a lot like a Christian fundamentalist to me.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
historymove
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posted 11 July 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for historymove     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
David Frum is Jewish - but that's irrelevant.

The main thing is that he is a hardcore right-wing Zionist who supports every right-wing policy that the Israeli Likud Party makes - even if it is a bad policy for the people of Israel.

If you wanna get a glimpse into his radical ideas and his ultimate goal of wanting the U.S. to wage wars to protect Israel (under the cover of a 'War on Terror'), read "An End to Evil", which is co-authored by Frum.

Quite the frightening book! He is such a neo-con idealogue!


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 11 July 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Once Canadians get a look at the that evil spawn of Barabara Frum who literally is a George Bush ass licker they will run for the hills.

Canadians do not like immoral neo-cons who sent poor minorities to war to Iraq while their evil spawn attend keg parties and ride SUV's.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 11 July 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
With Frum at the helm, the tories would surely sweep to power

I presume you are jesting, given the fact that the Reformatories have zero hopes of winning anything.

But,do you think it would matter to the Canadian electorate that David became a citizen of the United States in 2002?


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Sisyphus
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posted 11 July 2005 05:59 PM      Profile for Sisyphus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But,do you think it would matter to the Canadian electorate that David became a citizen of the United States in 2002?

My guess is that Tommy_P wouldn't think it would make his prospects any worse than they currently are.


From: Never Never Land | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 11 July 2005 11:50 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember reading somewhere that David regards his native country as a sort of pathetic lost cause. Many Canadians would say the feeling's mutual.

Yeah, he'd be great leadership material. The chickenhawk braying, the bush toadying, the arrogance of inherited privilege ... I can just see him connecting so well with ordinary people.

Bring him on.


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 11 July 2005 11:56 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Didn't David Frum come up with the phrase "Axis of Evil"? I thought I heard that somewhere. One of Bush's top speechwriters or something.

Poor Barbara. It's my nightmare to think that someday I could raise a child like David Frum. Can you imagine?

"I had such hopes for the boy! He could have done NGO work! He could have joined Greenpeace! He could have been such a mensch! Now, he wants to be a corporate lawyer and vote Republican! Oy! (spits) I have no son!"


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Briguy
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posted 12 July 2005 08:22 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
David Frum is a genius, a true debating champion, and intellectual force to be feared by we on the left.

With Frum at the helm, the tories would surely sweep to power and become Canada's natural ruling party.

We should all be very afraid. This could be the end of progressive politics in Canada.


Tommy, your sneakiness knows no bounds. Go post this on The Dark Site.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 12 July 2005 10:33 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Didn't David Frum come up with the phrase "Axis of Evil"? I thought I heard that somewhere. One of Bush's top speechwriters or something.

IIRC he was one of Bush's speechwriters until his equally loathsome partner Danielle Crittenden began loudly claiming (at cocktail parties, by e-mails, and such) that her genius hubby wrote that and she was so gosh-darned proud of the lunk. (I know, polishing a turd and all...)

Soon after, like the next day, he was fired.

It wouldn't hurt, every time the toady reared up on his hind legs and bleated, to keep bringing this up.

I don't think he actually wrote it.


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No Yards
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posted 12 July 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
She bragged at coacktail parties and to her father, the Toronto Sun's Peter (the rascist hate monger) Worthington, who then bragged about it in the newspaper, after which Frum was canned.

Frum supposedly came up with the Axis of (terror I think it was,) but the consensus was that it needed to be more "biblical", so "evil" replaced "terror".

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 12 July 2005 12:17 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frum strategic genius can also be seen in his attempts over the years to "unite the right".

I believe he was one of the big backers of a conference of righty-biggies about five years ago; he certainly used his rostrum in the National Post to push the idea.

Basically, they would count up the Reform vote, and add it to the Tory vote, and, voila!!! a majority government.

It was always a pretty simplistic concept. Present
circumstances suggest that until the hard-right "Reform" types are placed far on the back-burner, this party is going nowhere.


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Tommy_Paine
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posted 12 July 2005 12:21 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How do you live with that? A speach writter fired by George W. Bush.
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Contrarian
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posted 12 July 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What Frum came up with was "axis of hate" which Bush changed to "axis of evil"; but being economical, he saved "hate" for other use, as in the moronic "they hate us for our freedom".
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mary123
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posted 12 July 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
How do you live with that? A speach writter fired by George W. Bush.


How do you live with that? A speech writer fired by George W. Bush.because his moronic wife couldn't keep her big, fat mouth shout. She sure seems like a wonderful and discreet asset to that marriage.

edited to correct the original quotes spelling errors that I only noticed after I posted.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 July 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
double post.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 July 2005 03:42 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is it with these neo con types who think because they've lived in the United States, they need to come back to Canada and save us. Please we are doing just fine in Canada.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: mary123 ]


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mary123
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posted 12 July 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mary123:
[QB]


How do you live with that? A speech writer fired by George W. Bushbecause his moronic wife couldn't keep her big, fat mouth shout. She sure seems like a wonderful and discreet asset to that marriage.

edited to correct the original quotes spelling errors that I only noticed after I posted.


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arborman
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posted 12 July 2005 03:48 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I didn't know it was possible to get fired by Bush. Doesn't he reward medals for incompetence?

Was Frum somehow competent or something? That would have had him weeded out in no time.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 July 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am trying to edit my original post but the software seems to keep adding posts instead.
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skdadl
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posted 12 July 2005 03:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
mary, are you clicking on the pencil icon? That's your edit function. Don't click on the quotation marks: that will repeat the post in a new post.
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Geneva
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posted 12 July 2005 04:11 PM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
he was misquoted! (2 items down, July11 entry):
http://frum.nationalreview.com/print/

Did that mean therefore that I did not believe in the theory of intelligent design?

I said that if he were asking whether I believed that God had guided the process of evolution, yes, I believed that too.

Then he asked me about whether I thought evolution should be taught in public schools. Here's the answer that he quotes in his survey:

"How evolution should be taught in public schools: 'I don't believe that anything that offends nine-tenths of the American public should be taught in public schools. ... Christianity is the faith of nine-tenths of the American public. ... I don't believe that public schools should embark on teaching anything that offends Christian principle.'"

Two ellipses in three sentences should stand as a warning to the reader that there's funny business going on here. Those are my words all right - but they are not words given in answer to the question in italics. They are answers to questions posed later in the interview, when Adler embarked on a very argumentative and tendentious line of queries about who should decide what gets taught.

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 13 July 2005 08:38 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
don't believe that anything that offends nine-tenths of the American public should be taught in public schools

I never did think he was stupid enough to believe in intelligent design. However, he is stupid enough to think that popularity contests should drive school curriculae, if this quote is accurate (and even Frum admits that it is). Remind me where he earned his teaching degree, again?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 13 July 2005 08:48 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
thread drift: Scopes Trial / Evolution / Creationism debate timeline: http://tinyurl.com/75sc8.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 16 July 2005 03:31 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
David Frum is a genius, a true debating champion, and intellectual force to be feared by we on the left.
With Frum at the helm, the tories would surely sweep to power and become Canada's natural ruling party.

We should all be very afraid. This could be the end of progressive politics in Canada.


I will be more afraid of killer bees sweeping into Canada then I will be of David Frump becoming Prime Minister.

I am more afraid of Mars smacking into the Earth than I am of David Frump becoming Prime Minister.


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 16 July 2005 05:43 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Go ahead, make my day.
From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 17 July 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
She bragged at coacktail parties and to her father, the Toronto Sun's Peter (the rascist hate monger) Worthington, who then bragged about it in the newspaper, after which Frum was canned.

Frum supposedly came up with the Axis of (terror I think it was,) but the consensus was that it needed to be more "biblical", so "evil" replaced "terror".

[ 12 July 2005: Message edited by: No Yards ]


Didn't Frank magazine usually refer to her as "snaggle-toothed harpy" or something like that?


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 20 July 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
David Frum is an American!!!! Isnt he????


There is NO Canadian in him anyway. He is more American then Canadian.


Where was he born? Was he born in the US and immigrated here years ago then went back to the US to live?

There is NO way he could have come from Canada!!!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
clandestiny
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posted 20 July 2005 10:34 PM      Profile for clandestiny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
barbara frum once referred to arabs as 'ciphers'...saying their (arab people(?))opinions on the arab israel confict counted for nothing...this was back in the 80's, though i forget the context, the show etc....mrs frum was discussing arab israel conflict with someone when she dropped that little politically incorrect gem (and the cbc tucked the indiscreet comment away, unlike some people's comments)
does anyone here remember that?

From: the canada's | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged

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