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Author Topic: Banning women is ok, banning blacks is wrong
J Rebick
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Babbler # 2813

posted 19 July 2002 10:24 AM      Profile for J Rebick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can you believe this! Tiger Woods is saying that its ok for golf courses to ban women from playing.

Woods slammed with women membership issues

I wonder if his tune will change if golf courses return to banning blacks from playing.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: J Rebick ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 July 2002 10:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Woods said he would feel the same way if such golf clubs had no blacks or Asians.

"It's unfortunate," he said. "But it's just the way it is."


What really bothers me about what Woods said is this:

quote:
"It would be nice to see every golf course open to everyone who wanted to participate, but that's just not where society is," Woods said. "If you just pigeonholed this single issue, I think you're not doing justice in the bigger scope, and I think there are a lot of other things that go into it. It's just not that simple."

Does he even know what he means, or is this just bafflegab designed to sound like his position is principled? What does he think we're not "doing justice" to "in the bigger scope"? What is "the bigger scope"? What are the "lot of other things that go into it"? Go into what?

I'm disappointed, but not just in Tiger Woods. His status as a Black/Asian player shouldn't put a higher burden on him to protest misogynist policies. Professional golfers everywhere should have a problem with this.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 19 July 2002 10:58 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Asked whether he was concerned that Muirfield excluded women as members, R&A secretary Peter Dawson said, "We take the Open to the best links in the British Isles.

"We don't regard social engineering as part of our remit," he said.


Ha! The way things used to be, that was not social engineering, nooooo. Changing things -- especially if we lose our privilege -- that would be social engineering!

Yes, Woods is just babbling: is there something he's trying not to say? Are the differences in skill-levels going to come up now? These guys never heard of tennis?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 19 July 2002 11:27 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
His foundation is about poor kids getting to play golf who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to. Obviously its charitable mandate doesn't extend to girls who don't get to play because they're girls. It's about throwing money at a problem, not social change. Real lasting change requires hard work and the courage of your convictions. It requires risk.

Gosh Tiger, it would be 'nice' if everyone could play everywhere. It would also be 'nice' if spineless jerks like you had the balls to boycott events held at male-only clubs. That would send a really 'nice' message that women are valued participants in the sport.

Too bad it's all about the money though.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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Babbler # 1064

posted 19 July 2002 11:53 AM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Real lasting change requires hard work and the courage of your convictions. It requires risk.

And you know, I imagine that there wouldn't be a whole lot of risk in a golfing superstar using a little leverage in a case like this. If Tiger Woods said "I won't play X tournament because the club bars women," I'd bet the club management would swallow hard, dither awhile, defenestrate some of the Colonel Blimps on their board of directors, and then announce that, by gum, the club would now admit women.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
dee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 983

posted 19 July 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. Tiger is in a rare position where if he were to take a stand on this issue, the clubs would have little choice but to follow his lead. The amount of money and attention he brings to the sport is something that no club would willingly want to do without.

It would seem, then, that the problem has nothing to do with the courage to stand up for his convictions but that he has none.


From: pleasant, unemotional conversation aids digestion | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
J Rebick
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2813

posted 19 July 2002 04:53 PM      Profile for J Rebick     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2356

posted 19 July 2002 06:06 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How many gabillions of bucks does Tiger get from endorsing the child-slavery of Nike?

Don't expect this guy to be all liberal and politically correct when it comes to women and golf.

Why should he be so? His talent is whacking a golf ball.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 19 July 2002 07:49 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Earls of Wisdom

''Tiger will do more than any other man in history to change the course of humanity,'' his father, Earl, a retired Green Beret who served two tours in Vietnam, has said. Earl said Tiger would have a greater impact than Buddha, Gandhi and Mandela: ''He has a larger forum than any of them, because he's playing a sport that's international, because he's qualified through his ethnicity to accomplish miracles. He's the bridge between East and West. There is no limit because he has the guidance. I don't know exactly what form this will take. But he is the Chosen One.'' When Tiger met Nelson Mandela, Earl said of the great South African freedom fighter, ''He saw himself in Tiger.''
-- New York Times Magazine, 14 July 02


The complete article can be found here:

(hi 'lance! i joined i joined i joined already. you'll have to coach me on making hyperlinks, though, please; don't know if i did this first one right)


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
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posted 19 July 2002 07:50 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry folks, forgot to add that the NYtimes website in above-cited link requires no-fee registration.
From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 July 2002 08:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's a funny cartoon, J Rebick, but you should probably link to it in the future if it's from a copyrighted source.

Like this.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
anna_c
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2845

posted 19 July 2002 08:20 PM      Profile for anna_c     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm disappointed, but not just in Tiger Woods. His status as a Black/Asian player shouldn't put a higher burden on him to protest misogynist policies. Professional golfers everywhere should have a problem with this.

while i agree that everyone should be disturbed by exclusionary policies (be they racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise), i do think that individuals who have experienced exclusion of one kind may be more sensitive to the presence of exclusion of another kind. so someone who has been the target of racism should, epistemically speaking, be more atune to sexism.


From: montreal | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 July 2002 08:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I agree, anna. I guess I was just thinking that it might actually be racist to put a larger burden on Woods than other players to object. It does amaze me that he wouldn't be sensitive to this kind of issue. But then again, I have noticed that there are a lot of men who are very lefty when it comes to certain kinds of oppression, but are so threatened by feminism that they refuse to support it.

Considering that Woods is, as Arch has pointed out, chief spokesperson for child slavemasters everywhere though, I doubt he has much of a social conscience anyhow.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
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Babbler # 2883

posted 19 July 2002 09:19 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I doubt he has much of a social conscience anyhow.

I seem to recall that he also crossed the figurative picket line in shooting tv ads during the bitter SAG strike - along with Liz "strike? what strike?" Hurley.


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 20 July 2002 11:21 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
individuals who have experienced exclusion of one kind may be more sensitive to the presence of exclusion of another kind

As far as i know, there is no historical, psychological or social basis for this assumption. We who dislike all prejudice would like it to be so, but it just isn't.
An awful lot of people who came from poverty and 'made good' (got rich) have nothing but scorn for those who are still poor. A lot of women who achieved success treat their female employees like dirt. A lot of people who have been oppressed turn right around and oppress someone else when they get power.

One either cares about the big picture, or doesn't, regardless of race, gender or ethnic origins. So, maybe the kid isn't the next messiah.... write him off and keep the faith anyway.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 20 July 2002 12:36 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I go along with that. He is up there and doesn't want to lose it.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 20 July 2002 12:47 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Professional golfers everywhere should have a problem with this.

We... are... talking... about... professional... GOLFERS...

Personally, I'm more like to look to professional wrestling or crop-circle carving for deep cultural theory and leaders for social emancipation.


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 July 2002 12:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
True, scrabble. One part of me says, ooo-wee, yeah, let's fight for the right of upper class women to pay astronomical fees that only they and very rich men can afford, so they can join the most exclusive golfing clubs in the world.

On the other hand, if what I've heard is true, and all the major financial and business decisions are made in old boys networks at places like country clubs where women are excluded - well, that's a problem.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 20 July 2002 01:17 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks Michelle. You're right, of course.

But I was commenting more on the idea of holding professional golfers up to a higher moral / ideological standard, rather than their specific responsibility to fight for the rights of all golfers to have equal access.

Oh gawd - and we're still talking about pro golfers...

Say, it's a gorgeous high clear sun-dappled day with cool ocean breezes. Whyn't you all come on over to our house, and we'll have froufrou-drinks on the deck?


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 20 July 2002 01:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice to meet you, scrabble. Don't mind if I do.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 July 2002 02:08 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
On the other hand, if what I've heard is true, and all the major financial and business decisions are made in old boys networks at places like country clubs where women are excluded - well, that's a problem.



Not really. Best I can tell old girls from the same class share pretty much the same interests and priviledges (sans the odd golf club) as old boys. I don't think we could expect the old girls to make decisions much different than the old boys.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 20 July 2002 02:58 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
hi 'lance! i joined i joined i joined already. you'll have to coach me on making hyperlinks, though, please; don't know if i did this first one right.

Looks great to me, scrabble. (To the rest of you: while scrabble has been lurking for months, I've been exhorting her to start posting. A gentleman is discreet about such things, but let's just say we have a ... history, and leave it at that. )

quote:
Say, it's a gorgeous high clear sun-dappled day with cool ocean breezes. Whyn't you all come on over to our house, and we'll have froufrou-drinks on the deck?

An excellent invitation, y'all. scrabble and her RFL* have a beautiful deck, and house to match.

(*Reason-for-living)


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 20 July 2002 03:17 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
scrabble and her RFL*

That's wonderful! What breed of puppy?

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 20 July 2002 04:10 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, a very large cat named Gigi, who weighs as much as our two together, but is not fat.

Oh, and some guy, too.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 July 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ha! You're being baptized by fire, scrabble. Welcome aboard!

quote:
I don't think we could expect the old girls to make decisions much different than the old boys.

You're probably right - which brings me back to my first point, that it's not at the top of my feminist agenda to make sure that very rich women can join exclusive private clubs.

Probably Liberal Feminism with its mostly upper-middle to upper-class following is the best example of rich women trying to join the old boys' network, not to open it up to everyone, but so they can have the same power to wield over the masses.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 20 July 2002 08:39 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you. Where are you all, anyway? The icecubes are starting to melt out here. Mint julep, skdadl? Freshly-squished lemonade, Michelle?

quote:
A gentleman is discreet about such things

*Since when* have you been passing yourself off as anything other than the dissolute cross-dressing wastrel of lubricious good looks that you are? And what was all that with the cowboy hat?? Come clean about *those heels,* 'lance, honey.

Harumph. I thought all that with the elbow-length (third) gloves and scones was just for play.


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 20 July 2002 08:48 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...not to mention the gap cords...
From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 July 2002 12:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, scrabble, don't mind if I do!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 21 July 2002 12:34 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
*Since when* have you been passing yourself off as anything other than the dissolute cross-dressing wastrel of lubricious good looks that you are?

Busted! Ah well... if you'll forgive the lapse into grade-four wit, scrabble: it takes one to know one.

(Michelle: This is scarcely a baptism-by-fire. We've had this act running since we were roommates, nigh on eight year ago, b'gum. Take no notice).


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 July 2002 12:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Woo-hoo! "Lubricious"! That word really, ah, has an effect, does it not? It just so sounds like what it's supposed to be -- or so I've been told.
I'm so glad scrabble has showed up. And I'm all ears.

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 21 July 2002 07:33 PM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes, I agree, anna. I guess I was just thinking that it might actually be racist to put a larger burden on Woods than other players to object.

And I, Michelle, agree with you.

I also agree that golfers aren't exactly at the vanguard, as it were, of social change. There are many places that are defacto male dominated which are much more problematic IMO. In particular, we could start with supposed "progressive" organizations.

Nice to meet you all, BTW. New here, just trying to find my way around... ttfn...


From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 21 July 2002 07:59 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome to babble, adlib!

To re-digress a little: say scrabble, since when is being a

quote:
dissolute cross-dressing wastrel of lubricious good looks

(even granting the justice of that description)

incompatible with being a

quote:
gentleman

...hmmm? Riddle me that!


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
adlib
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2890

posted 22 July 2002 12:42 AM      Profile for adlib     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
^ Indeed. All the drag kings I've known have been perfect gentlemen.
From: Turtle Island ;) | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 July 2002 09:44 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hi adlib! Welcome to babble!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scrabble
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2883

posted 22 July 2002 03:45 PM      Profile for scrabble     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
adlib and I just got back from the orientation. adlib seems to be a natural, whereas I got turned around and ended up at some weirdass tea-party. Again.

quote:
Riddle me that!

Took a few hours, my darling. I was beginning to wonder what *could* be the matter - heat getting you down? I would have thought, my dear colonel, that having served in old injah would have inured you to such gentle beatings from the sun.

*Ahem*

Anyway, so Woods got some instant karma for his amoral compass. Check out this a/p story where they help beat the crap out of him:

In the Woods: Tiger hits pro low

quote:
July 20, 2002 | GULLANE, Scotland (AP) -- The collapse was so brutal and so complete it was hard to believe it was really Tiger Woods under the swoosh. This kind of thing was supposed to happen to those who play against him, not the great man himself.

In a cold, biting rain on the Scottish coast, the facade that Woods carefully built though his domination of the majors didn't just crack. It crumbled, along with his chances to win golf's Grand Slam.

Just when it seemed no one would challenge Woods on his way to history, Scottish weather and Woods' own stunning ineptness combined to all but end his bid for all four major championships in one year.

The conditions were miserable, but so was his game. For the first time in his professional career, Woods couldn't even break 80.

On his face, there was a look of bewilderment, as if Woods couldn't believe this was happening to him. The faces of the fans were likewise frozen in shock -- and not just because they were so cold they could hardly move.

(snip: weather spirits agree he's been a bad boy)

Almost on cue, as Woods stepped up to the first tee holding an umbrella, the weather went from dreary to dreadful. So did his mood as he took out a 2-iron and promptly hit it so far right he was almost past the knee-deep rough next to the East Lothian tourist bureau's visitors tent.

(snip: blow hard)

"It was just blowing so hard out there it was just difficult to stand. The ball was oscillating, the rain blowing."

(snip: not even pseudo-zen)

Woods rolled his eyes in frustration after missing a rare birdie putt on the ninth hole to shoot 42 on the front. On the next hole, he slammed his club on the ground in disgust after having to hit out of the rough once again.

Just when he thought nothing more could go wrong, it did. After hitting it into a greenside bunker on the 13th hole, Woods took a big cut at the ball, only to see it hit the sodded front of the bunker and fall back into the sand.

(more unfathomable golf jargon snipped)



Must I say here that I DO NOT FOLLOW golf? That for fun, my RFL* (see above) will occasionally goad me into a rant about the inanity of golf, the insidious poisonousness of golf courses, the plaid pants, the Big Berthas?

However, the CBC is reporting today on how that Gretzky fellow's enthusiasm for golf and photo-ops is whacking the sh*t out of draght-stricken farmers.

Guess we should stop picking such easy targets for disapprobation.

*gasp*

'lance! Get your strong, manly hand OUT of there! What *could* you be thinking?! For shame. I have never owned a pink angora sweater, no matter what the lovely Maria's recollections. I thought I'd set her clear on this particular topic: it was silver-lining-grey.


From: dappled shade in the forest | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 22 July 2002 03:50 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You still didn't answer my question, scrabble.

quote:
I have never owned a pink angora sweater, no matter what the lovely Maria's recollections. I thought I'd set her clear on this particular topic: it was silver-lining-grey.

(psst... scrabble... no fair to other babblers, referring to stuff out of email...)


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 July 2002 06:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In a cold, biting rain on the Scottish coast, ...

Just when it seemed no one would challenge Woods on his way to history, Scottish weather and Woods' own stunning ineptness combined to all but end his bid for all four major championships in one year.


Claymore! Well done, Scotland!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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