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Author Topic: HHHEEELLLPPP!!!!
Zeratul
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Babbler # 1159

posted 13 October 2001 03:27 PM      Profile for Zeratul     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PLEASE HELP! I know nothing about poetry and I need a good one for school if you know a good one I could tell in school please post it here.

Think of me as 19 trillion times confused as this... .


From: Right behind you, with a big knife | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2001 03:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How do you mean "a good one," and how do you mean "need one for school"? Gimme a context, and a level.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2001 03:52 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a great one, no matter the context. I think it has its relevance these days. (Gosh, I hope that bein' Lucid notices me being relevant.)

Dover Beach

Matthew Arnold

1867


1 The sea is calm to-night.
2 The tide is full, the moon lies fair
3 Upon the straits;--on the French coast the light
4 Gleams and is gone; the cliffs of England stand,
5 Glimmering and vast, out in the tranquil bay.
6 Come to the window, sweet is the night-air!
7 Only, from the long line of spray
8 Where the sea meets the moon-blanch'd land,
9 Listen! you hear the grating roar
10 Of pebbles which the waves draw back, and fling,
11 At their return, up the high strand,
12 Begin, and cease, and then again begin,
13 With tremulous cadence slow, and bring
14 The eternal note of sadness in.

15 Sophocles long ago
16 Heard it on the Ęgean, and it brought
17 Into his mind the turbid ebb and flow
18 Of human misery; we
19 Find also in the sound a thought,
20 Hearing it by this distant northern sea.

21 The Sea of Faith
22 Was once, too, at the full, and round earth's shore
23 Lay like the folds of a bright girdle furl'd.
24 But now I only hear
25 Its melancholy, long, withdrawing roar,
26 Retreating, to the breath
27 Of the night-wind, down the vast edges drear
28 And naked shingles of the world.

29 Ah, love, let us be true
30 To one another! for the world, which seems
31 To lie before us like a land of dreams,
32 So various, so beautiful, so new,
33 Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
34 Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
35 And we are here as on a darkling plain
36 Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
37 Where ignorant armies clash by night.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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Babbler # 1331

posted 13 October 2001 03:54 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anything by Margaret Atwood is considered OK because she is Canadian. Try "Ageing Female Poet Sits On the Balcony."

It is about compartimentalization and the Descartes separation of mind and body.

"Two-Headed Poems" it is about keeping a country together made up of Anglos and frogs - and what kind of person it takes to lead such a mismatched country. The last line

quote:
This is not a debate
But a duet
With two deaf singers

I think every body here can tell you what that means.

"A Women`s Issue"

Is about different ways of doing the same thing.

"The Arrest of the Stockbroker"
Is about APEC, Quebec City and WTC all roled into one.

The easiest way to interpret a poem is find a line that sticks out. Interpret that one line. Then interpret the rest of the poem so that it fits in with how you interpreted that first line. It`s cheep and lazy but effective grade wise.

What ever poem you decide on post it here and we will show you a few tricks. For example, with prose you read each line two ways
1) as a line by it`s self
2) as part of a sentence

Example:

quote:
For each child birth they`ll cut her
open, then sew her up

Here they are talking about keeping women faithful, but the consequence is that the hole is too small to give birth - which makes pregnancy less fun than it already is.

quote:
For each child birth they`ll cut her

Looking at this line seperately childbirth becomes a metaphor for new ideas

quote:
open, then sew her up

If something is open close it.


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jared
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posted 13 October 2001 04:18 PM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Tyger (William Blake)

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And What shoulder, and what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
******

Wholly unoriginal and done-to-death, but gimme a break...it's not like I'm an expert or anything. I've just always enjoyed reading Blake, and The Lamb and The Tiger are good starting points. Sorry if you're looking for something more contemporary...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 13 October 2001 04:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
also fun: this is by e e cummings, who doesn't cap his name, or much else.

you shall above all things be glad and young

you shall above all things be glad and young
For if you're young,whatever life you wear


it will become you;and if you are glad
whatever's living will yourself become.
Girlboys may nothing more than boygirls need:
i can entirely her only love


whose any mystery makes every man's
flesh put space on;and his mind take off time


that you should ever think,may god forbid
and (in his mercy) your true lover spare:
for that way knowledge lies,the foetal grave
called progress,and negation's dead undoom.


I'd rather learn from one bird how to sing
than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jared
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posted 13 October 2001 04:33 PM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, here's the polar opposite of Blake (for the sake of sheer wackiness). I just read it the other day.

*****
Jesus Was Way Cool (John S. Hall)

Jesus was way cool.
Everybody like Jesus.
Everybody wanted to hang
out with him.
Anything he wanted to do, he
did.
He turned water into wine,
and if he had wanted to,
He could have turned wheat
into marijuana, sugar
into cocaine,
or vitamin pills into
amphetamines.
He walked on the water and
swam on the land.
He would tell these stories
and people would listen.
He was really cool.
If you were blind, or lame,
you just went to Jesus and
he would put his
hands on you and you would
be healed.
That's so cool.

He could have played guitar
better than Hendrix.
He could have told the
future.
He could have baked the
most delicious cake in the
world.
He could have scored more
goals than Wayne Gretzky.
He could have danced better
than Baryshnikov.
Jesus would have been
funnier than any comedian
you can think of.

Jesus told people to eat his
body and drink his blood.
That's so cool. Jesus was so
cool.
But then some people got
jealous of how cool he was,
so they killed him.

But then he rose from the
dead! He rose from the dead,
did a little dance, and went
up to heaven. I mean, that's
so cool. No wonder there are
so many Christians.
*************

If all sermons were like this, maybe I'd still be going to church.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
machiavellian
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Babbler # 1365

posted 13 October 2001 04:41 PM      Profile for machiavellian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My favorite Atwood, and very short (from memory, so line breaks etc may be a little off):

You fit into me/like a hook into an eye/a fish hook/an open eye

Or for another short one, how about the very famous "In the Station at the Metro" by Ezra Pound:

The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.

There are the old stand-bys, William Blake's "Tyger", or "Ode on a Grecian Urn" by Keats.

Personally, I love Sylvia Plath. Some people have criticized her for her use of Holocaust imagery but it always leads to an interesting discussion. "Daddy" is extremely visual and excellent to read orally. Here's the beginning:

You do not do, you do not do
Any more, black shoe
In which I have lived like a foot
For thirty years, poor and white,
Barely daring to breathe or Achoo.

Daddy, I have had to kill you.
You died before I had time -
Marble-heavy, a bag full of God,
Ghastly statue with one gray toe
Big as a Frisco seal

And a head in the freakish Atlantic
Where it pours bean green over blue
In the waters off beautiful Nauset.
I used to pray to recover you.
Ach, du.

Oh, and then there's e.e. cummings. "anyone lived in a pretty how town" is a favorite of mine. Another good one:

kumrads die because they're told)
kunrads die before they're old
(kumrads aren't afraid to die
kumrads don't
and kumrads won't
believe in life)and death knows whie

(all good kumrads you can tell
by their altruistic smell
moscow pipes good kumrads dance)
kumrads enjoy
s. freud knows whoy
the hope that you may mess your pance

every kumrad is a bit
of quite unmitigated hate
(travelling in a futile groove
god knows why)
and so do i
(because they are afraid to love


All of the above are fairly famous, if that's what you are looking for. But I would suggest finding some anthologies and just reading for a while, and picking what really stands out to you.


From: Peace River (no, not actually in the river, silly) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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Babbler # 156

posted 13 October 2001 05:37 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a poem. It goes like this.

There once was a man from Nantucket
HElpdlt n g


From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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Babbler # 1331

posted 13 October 2001 07:01 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
William Blake - as inspired such greats as Northrup Frye (Atwood`s english teacher), Jacob Bronowski, Salmon Rushdie and Jim Morrison. Oh ... "To see the world in a grain of sand."

http://www.pinkfloydfan.net/
Many Pink Floyd lyrics count as poetry.
http://www.proofrock.com/favorite_sites.htm This TS Elliot poem on superficiality is one that I guarantee you will be exposed to.
http://www.pc-works.net/nascitur/atwood.html
And this is a short blurp on Atwood`s personality.

And we Can`t forget Annette Ducharme:

quote:
INNOCENTS WILL RISE

There is something very sad about the smile on a clown
Bring cheers of laughter ringing from the crowd
Little child don`t worry anymore
The Jester`s there to make you laugh
The knave to brave the storm

One day the Innocents will rise
Waving their hands across the skies
The open skies
The angle cries

There is something very weak about the strongest of men
There`s something in the fall that makes you rise up again
Cheers of laughter now ring from the clown
When the highest on the mountain has the furthest to fall down
ect.


Or The Guess Who`s "American Woman."


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 13 October 2001 08:25 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm rather ordinary in my taste in poetry. I like story types, and traditional structure, so it's little surprise that classics like Alfred Noyes' "The Highwayman" and Robert Service's "The Cremation of Sam McGee" and "The Shooting of Dan McGrew" are amoung my favorites.

"And still of a winter's night they say, when the wind is in the trees/ and the moon is a ghostly galleon, tossed upon cloudy sees/ when the road is a Gypsy's ribbon, over the purple moor/ A highway man comes ridding, ridding, ridding/ a highway man comes ridding up to the old in door."

One day, I'll meet a special lady who will listen to me recite that from memory, all twenty three stanzas.

"Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold, it stabbed like a driven nail"

Oh, that is soooooo Canadian.


"Were you eer out in the Great Alone, when the moon was awful clear,/ And the icy mountains hemmed you in with a silence you most could hear"

Oh man. It doesn't get better.


I like this snippet from Lord Macaulay's "Horatius at the Bridge"

"Then out spake brave Horatius,/ The Captain of the Gate:/ 'To every man upon this earth/ Death cometh soon or late./ And how can man die better/ Than facing fearful odds,/ For the Ashes of his fathers,/ and the temples fo his Gods?' "


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 13 October 2001 08:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just make sure it doesn't rhyme. You lose marks if it rhymes.

(That's why I'll never be able to appreciate real poetry. I only like the stuff that has a cadence and rhymes.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 13 October 2001 08:39 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is more modern poetry that strikes me sometimes. Once and a while, I can get a Rilke poem, so I'm not entirely a Poetry Philistine.

Here is one by Richard Outram, "Bedroom":

"Light, by stealth, at last has occupied
The citadels and forests thus made plain
The intricacy frost has ramified
Our mingled breath condensed upon the pane.

Of simple glass that keeps us from the night;
And in which after dark, returned by chance,
Darkened reflection offered us the sight
Of all our naked likeness at a glance.

I waken, still enamoured, given pause
By you, my deeply sleeping wife,
The certainty of death, as a lost cause,
The luminous unlikelihood of life."

Some of my fondest memories are laying awake, in the after glow of love making, watching moonlight through the venetian blinds play across the naked, sleeping body of my ex...and this poem takes me back there.


This one, by Sharon Olds, just plain blows my mind:

"The Takers"

"Hitler entered Paris the way my
sister entered my room at night.
Sat astride me, squeezed me with her knees,
held her thumbnails to the skin of my wrists and
peed on me, knowing Mother would never believe my story. It was very
silent, her dim face above me
gleaming in the shadows, the dark gold
smell of her urine spreading through the room, its
heat boiling on my legs, my small
pelvis wet. When the hissing stopped, when the
hole had been scorched in my body, I lay
crisp and charred with shame and felt her
skin glitter in the air, her dark
gold pleasure unfold as he stood over
Napoleon's tomb and murmured, This is the finest moment of my life."


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 October 2001 08:41 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoa. That second one was somewhat disturbing. Zeratul, I dare you to read THAT one in class. I was out with a friend from school last night, and she told me that in her highschool (which was Catholic), she read a Margaret Atwood poem to the class for a similar assignment, and it was somewhat...explicit. She said her teacher wasn't very impressed, and told her, "I wish you had consulted me before reading this poem." Heh. Shake'em up, Zeratul.

[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 13 October 2001 09:00 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My Eldest wanted to do a book report on "The Story of O". I have kicking around. She was interested in it because it is fairly short.

I told her that it was okay with me, but I added that it would be the most memorable book report her teacher was ever likely to hear.

After a brief and very general discussion of the book, she declined.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 13 October 2001 09:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
HA! Can you imagine THAT?

And why doesn't it surprise me that you have a copy of The Story of O kicking around? Hee hee.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pankaj
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posted 13 October 2001 09:18 PM      Profile for Pankaj   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This one by Walt Whitman is one of my very favorites. And poetry, what a worthy subjet.
http://lotus-medicine.com/pages/es-whitman.html

From: London, ON | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zeratul
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Babbler # 1159

posted 13 October 2001 09:25 PM      Profile for Zeratul     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I should do this everytime .

But really thanx everybody.


From: Right behind you, with a big knife | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 14 October 2001 08:30 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Years ago, in my early on line days I used to hang out in a chat room for literature.

We'd get kids coming in to the "room" and they'd quite often be looking for help with book reports etc.

I'd often give the basic plot to "Gilligan's Island" for requested information on literary classics.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 14 October 2001 08:42 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now is that nice?
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 14 October 2001 09:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This wonderful poem runs on a deceptively cosy laundry metaphor:

quote:

LOVE CALLS US TO THE THINGS OF THIS WORLD

Richard Wilbur

The eyes open to a cry of pulleys,
And spirited from sleep, the astounded soul
Hangs for a moment bodiless and simple
As false dawn.
Outside the open window
The morning air is all awash with angels.


Some are in bed-sheets, some are in blouses,
Some are in smocks: but truly there they are.
Now they are rising together in calm swells
Of halcyon feeling, filling whatever they wear
With the deep joy of their impersonal breathing;

Now they are flying in place, conveying
The terrible speed of their omnipresence, moving
And staying like white water; and now of a sudden
They swoon down into so rapt a quiet
That nobody seems to be there.
The soul shrinks

From all that it is about to remember,
From the punctual rape of every bless`ed day,
And cries,
"Oh, let there be nothing on earth but laundry,
Nothing but rosy hands in the rising steam
And clear dances done in the sight of heaven."

Yet, as the sun acknowledges
With a warm look the world's hunks and colors,
The soul descends once more in bitter love
To accept the waking body, saying now
In a changed voice as the man yawns and rises,

"Bring them down from their ruddy gallows;
Let there be clean linen for the backs of thieves;
Let lovers go fresh and sweet to be undone,
And the heaviest nuns walk in a pure floating
Of dark habits,
keeping their difficult balance."

(Things of This World, 1956)



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 14 October 2001 03:27 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anything by Robert Frost is good...
From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 14 October 2001 05:02 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Show us the poen you decide on and we`ll help. Best to pick a poem which alludes to an issue you know something about. Just don`t make the same mistake Cathy Holden made when she was talking about how the poem represented the resurrection of Christ, but accidently left out the "resurr" part.

quote:
Just make sure it doesn't rhyme. You lose marks if it rhymes.
(That's why I'll never be able to appreciate real poetry. I only like the stuff that has a cadence and rhymes.)

It`s because prose (and to a lesser extent prose poems) are all supposed to represent human alienation in the modern world - which is seen as more intellectual for some reason. If it`s strictly prose, the lines are so linear that they remind me of people lining up on the esculator leading to nowhere and then dropping of the edge into oblivian - which I guess represents how disconnected with ourselves and the world we are expected to feel. Most of the prose I actually like would fit into the category of prose poems because they maintain the interconnectedness of real poetry.

There is something primitive about real poetry in that it contains the cycles of nature and the feeling that everything repeats itself in different manifestations. It`s just that there has been so much simplistic ryming peotry written that teachers tend to dismiss all of it as symplistic. (Leaves out "Casey at the Bat" a a possible choice - or BTO`s "Bases are loaded and Casey`s at bat - time to change the batter. - or "My boy`s in the Big League")


quote:
Zeratul, I dare you to read THAT one in class. I was out with a friend from school last night, and she told me that in her highschool (which was Catholic), she read a Margaret Atwood poem to the class for a similar assignment, and it was somewhat...explicit. She said her teacher wasn't very impressed, and told her, "I wish you had consulted me before reading this poem."

To ban Atwood in a Canadian school! Which one was it? The one where she finds a new use for door knobs or the one with the line "You`ll notice what they have in common is between the legs." Usually you don`t read the poem, you hand out copies to the students before starting your talk on it. As long as it is clear from your speach that you didn`t choose the poem for shock value but because it raises an issue or an idea you believe to be very important - there should be no problem.


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 14 October 2001 06:11 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
(chuckles) No, it wasn't nice, but niether was it wise to come to a place and basically say to a bunch of readers "hi, I'm too lazy to read a dusty old book because I want to get back to Super Mario, can you guys do my work for me?"

-----

"Primitive" poetry is difficult to write, I think. It is not easy to rhyme without resorting to "moon/june" insipid ryhmes, (just listen to ANY song by "Styx") and keep the rythm, and still manage to say what it is one wanted to say.

These old poems were worked on and worked on. In the end they may read so smoothly and flawlessly that it gives the impression they just flowed from the authors quill naturally, but I really doubt this to be the case.

I think rhyme and such were thrown away because poets got lazy.

oh oh....... assumes fetal position in anticipation of a sound drubbing.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
JCL
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posted 14 October 2001 08:06 PM      Profile for JCL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What about some poetry from the bathroom stalls?
From: Winnipeg. 35 days to Christmas yet no snow here. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 14 October 2001 08:35 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What about some poetry from the bathroom stalls?

How about the famous one we all know about user-fees - "Here I sit broken hearted." - and the lament afterwards when you apply it to healthcare - I`d rather be sitting in the emergency room with heartburn than die at home from a heart-attack.

OK for bathroom poetry

Read while using an outhouse:

quote:
Roses are red
Toilet seats are white
If you had Exlax
You`ll be here all night

By Paul Fraypond (sp?)

quote:
Excuse me for my ignorance
I knew it wasn`t smart
But if it were the other end
It would have been a fart

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: vaudree ]


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 22 October 2001 12:42 AM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Zeratul,

How did it all turn out?


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zeratul
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posted 22 October 2001 04:49 PM      Profile for Zeratul     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I picked Tyger Tyger and no one not even the teacher understood it!
From: Right behind you, with a big knife | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 22 October 2001 05:25 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Did he who made the lamb make thee?


Ever listen to ACDC?
"If you made the devil and the devil made you
Who becomes the devil and who made who"

You know that Tyger is a metaphor for something frightening - possibly to do with the industrial revolution or with copper and other metals. Seems like a smelting process with hammers and everything. This stuff would have been big in the industrial revolution when he wrote.

quote:
When the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,

If you`ve taken about Vikings you know that Thor is the God of lightening and that he had a hammer - but Blake seems to weaken this by the use of spears for lighting. The spears seem to be a weaker more primitive form of the hammer.

Together this gives me an idea of an industry versus nature contrast where we have become the beast. Who did this beast slaughter - all you left-winged history buffs?

Anybody else with a possible interpretation?

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: vaudree ]


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 23 October 2001 10:39 AM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tyger Tyger can also be seen as a fractured fairytale of "The Jungle Book." In the original story we knew two things about Shere Khan:
He hated humans.
He feared fire.
In Blake`s version the tyger and the fire merge to become an even more frightening and terryfying entity. Doesn`t disqualify the previous premise of the Tyger as being some sort of man hating machene.

And who is the lamb but Mowgli - the innocent unncivilized human coming to the city as a result of the enclosure movement.

OK it turned into the same thing, but someone else must have an interpretation.

Stop looking for how it should be interpreted and look for how it can be interpreted and you`ll find it easier.

If we can make the speach of a Cretien or a Bush meaningful - how much harder can this be?


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Doug
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posted 23 October 2001 10:05 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That, or it's just about some sicko who decided to torch the zoo.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 24 October 2001 10:55 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That, or it's just about some sicko who decided to torch the zoo.


This is one of those times where it is more fun to take you seriously. I haven`t thought of looking at it from the old "the tyger is also being consumed/the tyger is also enslaved" approach, but now that you mention it I see it.
quote:
What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

Chains and bars are both symbols of imprisonment.

Have you looked at the definition of tiger yet - there is one that reminds me of Margaret Thatcher. Picture it now - the iron lady in the concrete jungle.


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machiavellian
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posted 25 October 2001 03:58 AM      Profile for machiavellian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have read that William Blake was also basically a Gnosticist, and one aspect of Christian Gnostic belief (and this is very simplistic) is that the god of the "Old Testament" is a different god than that of the gospels -an evil god - perhaps the creator of the Tyger.

So that AC/DC quote pretty much explains how Blake's religious beliefs could relate to "Tyger".

Didn't Northrop Frye write a whole book on Blake? Or am I confusing him with someone else?

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: machiavellian ]


From: Peace River (no, not actually in the river, silly) | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
vaudree
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posted 25 October 2001 12:38 PM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Didn't Northrop Frye write a whole book on Blake? Or am I confusing him with someone else?

Yeah, among others.

The thing with poems and government policy and anything else we give birth to is that no wonder what we originally intend for them they seem to have minds of their own. Think of government policy as an elephant baby and the party leaders as blind men.

For those who have never read Frye, I`ll sum up his writing style:

"This is your brain on Frye
This is your brain with two slices of bacon and toast"

(based looosely on the fried egg "this is your brain on drugs" commercial.


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skdadl
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posted 25 October 2001 12:53 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frye's first book was Fearful Symmetry (1948?).

It's challenging for high school, Zeratul, but maybe you'd like to have a look. I think that Frye had a Peculiar Empathy with Blake, given his talent for -- what? -- holistic vision? being able to think about both the union of opposites and the tension between them at the same time?

But it takes a long (dry) time to learn that from Frye, longer than it does from Blake. It would be interesting to follow up machiavellian's comment about Gnosticism. What you will find at once if you get a Blake collection is the interplay of opposites in his mind -- innocence and experience, eg (his most famous collections of poems are called Songs of Innocence and Songs of Experience ), the ole' good 'n' evil, of course -- those kinds of opposites.

However deep into Blake anyone ever gets, most of us still fall back on the power of the images and the way they form and re-form associations among themselves. Being mystified can be a good place to start, eh?

[ October 25, 2001: Message edited by: skdadl ]


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vaudree
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posted 26 October 2001 01:25 AM      Profile for vaudree     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the purpose of us groping blind, Blake just happened to be the latest elephant. It could have been a law, a speach, or research data that we were interpreting. About Frye, I liked some of his ways of creating perspectives. For example, looking at what it meant in it`s own time and what it means in our time. I also like his concept of relevance.

More familiar with "The Great Code" actually if one wants beginner Frye "On Education," even with it`s anti-American slant is probably best.

quote:
However deep into Blake anyone ever gets, most of us still fall back on the power of the images and the way they form and re-form associations among themselves. Being mystified can be a good place to start, eh?

Sort of like seeing the world in a grain of sand or like having kiliadiscope eyes? It`s fun that with every new perspective a different aspect of the poem becomes highlighted and a different portion becomes background. Sort of like a God`s eye view watching Able and Cain - each seeing only a small but different fraction of the whole and pretending that his fraction was everything and that his brother did not know what he was talking about. (I`m assuming they had a few verbal differences before it got violent).

My problem is when the teacher figures that there is only one correct way of interpreting anything - now that is mystifying in sort of an impossible way! I try to avoid getting teachers like that.

quote:
Northrup Frye's Concept of Relevance

Relevance implies a relation to something else, but the question of what relevance is relevant to is often not raised. It seems to me obvious that any subject taught and studied is a part of the whole of human life, and its relevance is to that wholeness. There is no such thing as inherent or built-in relevance; no subject is relevant in itself, because every field of knowledge is equally the centre of all knowledge (135).

It has often happened in the sciences that a new discovery, even a new invention, seems to be of no immediate practical use. But fifty years later it may turn out to be exactly what that science is then looking for. Similarly, it has been noted many times that what poets have seen in any given period becomes what the whole world is doing fifty or a hundred years later (190-1).


The last quote, I think, is a reference to Blake - or maybe an early premoniton concerning his price student "Margaret."

quote:
I think that Frye had a Peculiar Empathy with Blake, given his talent for -- what? -- holistic vision? being able to think about both the union of opposites and the tension between them at the same time?

Do you share that vision?

Actually the trick is that for two thing to be opposites they must have something in common - even if that "something" is just the criteria that deemed them thus. That criteria only focuses on one quality or set of qualities and ignores everything else.

quote:
What you will find at once if you get a Blake collection is the interplay of opposites in his mind -- innocence and experience,

But note that while Blake deals with opposites, he seems to prevent these "opposites" from becoming polarised. What keeps popping into my head is some poem of his about a peeble and a stone commenting on love but his line: The best wine is the oldest; the best water is the newest" captures this lack of polarization.

Have you ever seen Northrup Frye`s description of his perfect student? According to the definition he gives - well you know he taught Atwood.


From: Just outside St. Boniface | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged

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