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Author Topic: Is it Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays?
fairydust
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posted 18 December 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have been informed that it is politically correct ( whatever this over used term is supposed to mean) to use the phrase "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". I for one am sick and tired of always having to change our traditions for the supposed offending someone who does not celebrate Christmas. The fact is that the vast majority of people celebrate Christmas in this country, but yet here is another example of the minority imposing their priorities and beliefs on the majority.

If these individuals do not want to participate, that is fine. After all this is a free country. They are free to celebrate whatever religious or ethnic tradition they may want.

Does anyone else on this forum feel the same or are you in agreement with this change?


From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 December 2004 04:17 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I for one am sick and tired of ...

Really tired rhetorical strategy, fairydust.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 18 December 2004 04:24 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but yet here is another example of the minority imposing their priorities and beliefs on the majority

Here is yet another example of knee-jerk bigotry blaming minorities for the faults of the majority.

Who says "Happy Holidays"? You? Your friends? What minorities? It is only commercial enterprises that have worked hard for decades to reduce christmas to a consumerist orgy without any spiritual meaning.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 December 2004 04:28 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Merry holidays, Wingy.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
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posted 18 December 2004 04:34 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Who says "Happy Holidays"? You? Your friends? What minorities? It is only commercial enterprises that have worked hard for decades to reduce christmas to a consumerist orgy without any spiritual meaning.


Exactly. Big business can take their "holidays" and shove it. I'm still wishing people a merry Christmas.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 18 December 2004 04:55 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would anyone really get upset over "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" , does it really matter how people wish you well?
I sometimes wish people a good Christmas or to have a wonderful holiday, either way my sentiment is the same no matter how I express it.
Phrases that don't include the word Christmas recongnize that there are many celebrations at this time of year. There was a great PBS special on just the other night (I came in in the middle of it so I don't know the name) that covered the origins of different customs and ancient concepts of spirituality. The winter solstice has a long history of human celebration long before Christianity made an appearance and almost all of the ancient traditions which predate Christianity have been co-opted by Christianity. If you know someone is a strong Christian or you are yourself , wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" is not going to offend anyone , on the other hand if someone is Muslim or Jewish or you're just not sure perhaps wishing them "Happy Holidays" is just another way of being considerate.
After all if you are wishing good things on someone else it shouldn't be about you , but about them.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 December 2004 05:26 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fairydust, have a horrible Christmas, replete with the misery and hatred that fill your heart.

Oh -- and just to be politically correct, miserable holidays too!


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
fairydust
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posted 18 December 2004 05:29 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WingNut wrote " Here is yet another example of knee-jerk bigotry blaming minorities for the faults of the majority."

No, it is fact and has nothing to do with bigotry. There are many examples in Canada where government and private citizens in their effort to appear unbiased and fair end up trampling on the rights of others.


From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 December 2004 05:31 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RB funny.

Oh, for chrissakes, fairydust: say whatever the hell you want!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
fairydust
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posted 18 December 2004 05:38 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RealityBites have a horrible Christmas, replete with the misery and hatred that fill your heart.
Oh -- and just to be politically correct, miserable holidays too!

I wish the same for you, since from your response you also have the same heart felt sentiments.


From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
fairydust
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posted 18 December 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
skdadl wrote "Oh, for chrissakes, fairydust: say whatever the hell you want!"

I WILL!

I guess if it is NOT in line with your opinions or beliefs and RD's it has no merit or worth. Yet another example of both your narrow thinking.
I await both of your replies. I am sure they will be enlightening. HA!HA!


From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 05:51 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fairydust...hey, have you mailed the lump of coal to the mayor of Denver, as Michelle Malkin has commanded, or have you instead donated (as others have suggested) the cost of a lump of coal (since I've never seen a lump of coal, I imagine it might be a little pricey) and the mailing costs to the local soup kitchen instead in, you know, the true spirit of the season?

...Or are you moved, by the holiday spirit, to share your bitterness and anger instead? Let me know, you big ol' Christian, you.

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 December 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
FD, I wish you the same sort of holiday sentiments that you wish to Carolyn Parrish — twice over!
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 December 2004 06:02 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fairydust:
RealityBites have a horrible Christmas, replete with the misery and hatred that fill your heart.
Oh -- and just to be politically correct, miserable holidays too!

I don't celebrate Christmas myself.

I don't take offense at anyone's good wishes whether for a holiday I celebrate, or one I don't. When it comes to Christmas, I wish a merry Christmas to people when I know they celebrate it.

Since, as you mention, the majority of Canadians celebrate Christmas, it stands to reason that the majority of those individuals wishing others "Seasons Greetings" ALSO celebrate Christmas.

So in other words, some Christians try to be sensitive to others and the end result is that racist assholes such as yourself end up blaming people who had nothing to do with the decision to be sensitive and who for the most part really couldn't give a crap whether they're wished a merry Christmas, a happy holidays, season's greetings or nothing at all.


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Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 06:03 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was at a cologne bar yesterday and bought Hugo Boss, Number 1 (my favourite). The obviously non-Christian sales clerk (she was brown, and had an East-Indian accent)...wished me "Merry Christmas". Boy, did I set her straight. She'll think twice before she ever does that again.

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 December 2004 06:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fairydust:
I for one am sick and tired

I'm sorry you're feeling sick and tired. I hope you'll be feeling better in time to have a happy holiday!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 18 December 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Telling someone to enjoy celebrating a holiday they might not celebrate is the way you want to excercise your "rights"? To what? Be thoughtless?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 December 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Telling someone to enjoy celebrating a holiday they might not celebrate is the way you want to excercise your "rights"? To what? Be thoughtless?

Now, Audra. Clearly this is a Muslim-Jewish-Atheist conspiracy to further persecute Christians.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 December 2004 06:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
She'll think twice before she ever does that again.


Silly Hinterland. I will not.

I'm about to humiliate you in public by hugging and kissing you and wishing you Merry Christmas just all over the place, yippee!

Worse: from now until Christmas, I am just gonna bombard this board with Christian love. Like, you guys are gonna be so overdosed you will be begging for surcease. (Is that correct usage?)

But until you do: oh, hugs and kisses and maple syrup all over your dear little bodies, and isn't Christmas great? Merry merry.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 06:27 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Then this shall be known as the "Great Christian Christmas Love War" of Babble, 2004, where we all fight to the death to prove we're more capable and deserving of Christian love than all the other godless bastards.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 18 December 2004 06:27 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
The obviously non-Christian sales clerk (she was brown, and had an East-Indian accent)...wished me "Merry Christmas".

There are plenty of brown people with East-Indian accents who are Christians.

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 06:31 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, not this one. She wasn't Christian....I just knew it.

...


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 December 2004 06:33 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Over in the snopes.com forums I found these suggested atheist cards:

"Happy New Year in an Godless, Indifferent Universe!"

"Merry Christmas! Just Another Of 365 Days"

http://tinyurl.com/3j3fm


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 18 December 2004 07:00 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, poor deluded Michelle, can't you see? Those groups are all fronts. It's really the ho-mo-seck-shuals, in league with the Commies, who are coming after Christmas.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Embarassed American
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posted 18 December 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for Embarassed American     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is becoming a major issue here in the US with near fights breaking out among some people who are wished a "happy holidays" i.e. "don't wish me a happy holidays dammit, its CHRISTMAS, the birth of JESUS CHRIST."

I'm serious. As I posted on another thread, people are really getting militant about Christmas displays. A school district in Oklahoma is being blackmailed on not having school funding approved unless they return a Christian religious display back to the school.

There was a song called "Happy Holidays" sung by that ultimate red state country group Alabama! Would they dare sing this in public now?

quote:
Smilin' faces on city streets, crowded shoppers, busy feet
And every smile just seems to say, we're having some Happy Holidays

Twinklin' lights on Christmas trees, kids up on Santa's kneww
Busy lines on telephones, sending a Merry Christmas home

Bells ringing everywhere, season spirit in the air
Up and down the avenue, holiday dreams comin' true

A choir singing songs of cheer, carols we all love to hear
Rudolph with his glowin' nose, lovers under mistletoe

Postman bringin' Christmas cards, reindeer out in the yard
Frosty with his eyes of coal, present wrapped in pretty bows

Sidewalks full of happy eyes, flakes fallin' from the sky
Boys and girls at the big parade to see St. Nick up on his sleigh

The scene is set, it's beautiful, sounds of Peace, Joy and Love
From all of us we'd like to say, have yourself some Happy Holidays



And for cryin' out loud, Americans have been wishing each other Happy Holidays since at least 1942's "Holiday Inn"

What, was Bing Crosby some kind of secular humanist?

quote:
HAPPY HOLIDAY / THE HOLIDAY SEASON (Medley)
From The film "Holiday Inn" (1942)
(Music & Lyrics for "Happy Holiday" by Irving Berlin / Music & Lyrics for "The Holiday Season" by Kay Thompson)

Bing Crosby & Martha Mears - 1942
Andy Williams - 1953
The Manhattan Transfer - 1992

Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
While the merry bells keep ringing
May your every wish come true

Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday
May the calendar keep bringing
Happy Holidays to you

It's the holiday season
And Santa Claus is coming back
The Christmas snow is white on the ground
When old Santa gets into town
He'll be coming down the chimney, down
Coming down the chimney, down

It's the holiday season
And Santa Claus has got a toy
For every good girl and good little boy
He's a great big bundle of joy
He'll be coming down the chimney, down
Coming down the chimney, down

He'll have a big fat pack upon his back
And lots of goodies for you and me
So leave a peppermint stick for old St. Nick
Hanging on the Christmas tree

It's the holiday season
With the whoop-de-do and hickory dock
And don't forget to hang up your sock
'Cause just exactly at 12 o'clock
He'll be coming down the chimney
Coming down the chimney
Coming down the chimney, down!

Happy Holiday
Happy Holiday etc.



From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 December 2004 07:16 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 18 December 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and what about those that dont celebrate Christmas or ANY other religious celebration? i want my happy holiday!
From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 18 December 2004 07:36 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I myself prefer the Feast of Saturnalia.

Apparently is is a festival which combines three different Roman gods, but the named one is Saturn, God of Sowing.

Here is a little greeting:

"May you always have enough, and some to share."
"May you never thirst!"
"Bona Saturnalia!"

and more...

quote:
Saturnalia (from the god Saturn) was the name the Romans gave to their holiday marking the Winter Solstice.

Over the years, it expanded to a whole week, the 17th through 23rd of December.

It also degenerated from mostly tomfoolery, marked chiefly by having masters and slaves switch places, to sometimes debauchery, so that among Christians the (lower case) word "saturnalia" came to mean "orgy."

...The customary greeting for the occasion is "Io, Saturnalia!" — io (pronounced "yo") being a Latin interjection related to "ho" (as in "Ho, there").


So...

Yo, Saturnalia, everyone!


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 December 2004 07:39 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I'm 100% atheist and of Jewish descent and I say Merry Christmas and I am happy to have people say Merry Christmas to me. In fact I celebrate Christmas in my own way. I send cards, I exchange gifts with friends and family, I make a turkey and I enjoy carols by candle light.

One thing I find absurd is how people in their efforts to bend over backwards to be "politically correct". Will try to equate Hanukkah with Christmas - as if it was the Jewish equivalent of Christmas. In reality Hanukkah is one of the most insignificant holidays of Jewish year. It would be on a par with some little known Christian day like Septuagessima. In Israel it isn't even a stat holiday!!

Let Christmas be Christmas. I like the lights, the music, the parties. It all give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I think that while Christmas may have some vague origin as a Christian religious event, I think that in Canada at least it has been effectively de-Christianized. Most of our observations have NOTHING to do with what supposedly happened in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. Do you think they decorated pine trees with tinsel in the Middle East?? Do you think that having a roly poly man in a red and white suit is part of the gospel? What does exchanging gifts have to do with it? What about Christmas songs like Jingle Bells and Frosty the Snowman etc... that sing about climatic conditions that are non-existent in Bethlehem?

Instead of people being such sticks in the mud - why don't they get a life. We shoudl all celebrate Christmas as an aspect of North American culture that has virtually zilch to do with religion. Most of the ways in which we celebrate it are quite secular and/or pagan in origin.

If everyone, regardless of religion or lack therefore, wpould happily say Merry Christmas, put trees, exchange gifts etc... it would help to DE-Christianize the holiday even more and make it possible for everyone to feel included in this lovely holiday.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 18 December 2004 07:43 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was kinda leaning toward promoting Festivus, but fuslim has sold me on Saturnalia.
From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 07:49 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, well...If you're serious about Festivus, Oldgoat, you've got to start a thread about the "Festivus Airing of Grievances". I've got a few. Although, I'm more than willing to add to the celebration of Festivus the "Silence from the Hinterland" tradition as well.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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posted 18 December 2004 07:52 PM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i , in fact, do not care if anyone says Merry Christmas or Happy holidays, i am just glad to get a break from school.

[ 18 December 2004: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 18 December 2004 07:58 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Right on babblerwannabe! Its like when I was kid, I said I don't care what you call, as long as I get presents!

Some people need to get a life. When people say "Merry Christmas", about 99% of the time, it is people who are just innocently offering good wishes for the festive season and they don't mean it in a religious way at all. It is said in a spirit of goodwill and generosity and that's all that matters. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

What will it be next? You sneeze and someone says "Bless you" and then you go apeshit because you are atheist and their comment is offensive?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Joe
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posted 18 December 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for Joe        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think fairydust should celebrate Kwanzaa instead. I think that celebration would be right up his/her/its holiday alley.

quote:
The inventor of the holiday was one of the few black "leaders" in America even worse than Sharpton. But there was no mention in the Times article of this man or of the fact that at that very moment he was sitting in a California prison. And there was no mention of the curious fact that this purported benefactor of the black people had founded an organization that in its short history tortured and murdered blacks in ways of which the Ku Klux Klan could only fantasize.

From: City | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 18 December 2004 08:15 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unlike that lengthy string of morally unblemished popes, priests and others, I guess...
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 18 December 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This "fear of Christmas" is a phantom menace conjured every year so that certain crybaby Christians can adopt victim status and model a pained expression over the sad fact that not everyone around them isn't carrying on like the Cratchits. This thin-skinned grievance-collecting gives birth to all sorts of urban legends and rumors about big institutions being hostile to Christ's birthday, such as the one that swirled on WOR radio last week about how Macy's employees had been instructed not to say "Merry Christmas!" to shoppers. A fiction that was put to rest when the host hit Macy's website and saw its "Merry Christmas" greeting, and Macy's employees chimed in over the phones to say there was no such policy. To read conservative pundits, you'd think everybody was wishing each other Happy Kwanzaa! and averting their eyes from oh so gauche Nativity scenes. I've got news: Even here on the godless, liberal Upper West Side, people wish each other Merry Christmas without staggering three steps backward, thunderstruck and covered with chagrin.

James Wolcott


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 18 December 2004 10:40 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Québec, it is quite common to say "Joyeuses fêtes" as well as the Noël schtick - and I believe that predated modern multiculturalism, as New Year's Day was the big celebration here until fairly recently.

Skdadl, why would you want to be deliberately rude to someone you know is not a Christian and does not celebrate Christmas?

By the way, Hinterland, there are millions of Christians in South Asia. There are also people of various South Asian origins who have converted to Christianity here, and not a few who have sought refugee status on that very basis.

Renzo reminds us all that it is a bloody cat-hating religion.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 18 December 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joyeuses fêtes is actually quite common outside Québec, surprisingly. It encompasses "Merry Christmas and Happy New Year" and a general well-wishing for the entire holiday season. People in Ontario and Acadie use it quite often, as in other, non-Québec areas of Canada as well.

quote:
By the way, Hinterland, there are millions of Christians in South Asia. There are also people of various South Asian origins who have converted to Christianity here, and not a few who have sought refugee status on that very basis

My wish for you Lagatta, this Christmas, is a deeper appreciation of nuance and sarcasm, to counter your unfortunate tendency to lecture people about things they already know.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 19 December 2004 12:10 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Merry Christmas.

On the other hand, if I know I'm talking to an atheist, happy winter solstice.

Since Muslims recognize Christ as a prophet, are they offended at being wished Merry Christmas?

God rest ye merry, everyone.

(As in "God bless you" to someone who has done something praiseworthy -- a felicitous but totally non-denominational turn of phrase.)


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 December 2004 12:18 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As we say in Sweden:

God Jul och Gott Nytt Ar


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 December 2004 01:16 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There are many examples in Canada where government and private citizens in their effort to appear unbiased

What private citizens? Private corporate citizens, maybe?

Look, I don't say "happy holidays" and neither does anyone I know. Who invented Santa Claus? Was it a minority? Is it minority children all lined up in the malls to sit on Santa's lap and tell him their christmas wishes? Is it minorities in the malls forgetting the spirit of christmas (giving expensive store bought items) to threaten with death someone who might have stolen their parking spot? Is it minorities all rushing out on boxing day to those very same malls that had them all stressed out in the lead up to Christ's birth? Is it minorities who all gave up the sabbath to fill the malls every Sunday because, geez, six days of shopping just isn't enough?

You know what I am sick and tired of? I am sick and tired of people who surrendered their heritage, their culture, their faith and their soul for shiney trinkets and who then want to place the guilt of being empty vessels with a plastic past and a ready-make future --availabe on any store shelf in the colour of your choice!-- on people who arrive here never having had a say or an impact on that personal decision.

And what has every Muslim, Jew, Bhuddist, etc ... ever said to me this time of year? Merry Christmas.

It is quite possible that the minorities, who often arrive hoping to preserve their traditions, culture and faith, better understand the importance of the Christmas tradition and its real meaning and purpsoe than anyone who would falsely blame them for having lost it.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 02:55 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A whiskey for WingNut, barkeep! Put 'er on my tab!
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 19 December 2004 03:44 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
EA, I am not surprised to hear about this becoming a major issue in the US. We should note, I think, that this is not the first ugly Christmas-related controversy to rear its head in the United States. With that in mind, and with all the seriousness the way this thread was started deserves, I proudly present...

A Brief History of Political Controversies Surrounding Christmas in the United States.

1911 - In their first recorded Christmas based decision, the US Supreme Court votes to break up Santa's monopoly on gift-giving, the Standard Gift Company. For the first time, Americans were permitted to give gifts to each other.

1917 - By executive order of the Wilson administration, the carol "O Tannenbaum" is briefly replaced by "O Freedom Tree".

1923 - Santa calls in strikebreakers after a 6 week long job action by underpaid elves. The resulting melee results in the deaths of 5 elves and Polar Guardsman, a tragedy still remembered every year by the elves. Boycotts of Christmas by both the IWW and the AFL mean gift giving occured in fewer American homes than any Christmas before or since.

1932 - The North Pole officially withdraws from the League of Nations after it is criticised for annexing Chanukah. The Hoover administration temporarily withdraws its polar ambassador to show its displeasure with Generalissmo Claus (as he was then styled) but tensions are quickly resolved.

1941 - Despite opposition from isolationist Republicans in Congress, Santa is granted Lend-Lease aid to upgrade his sleigh to a B-2 bomber. English and Russian children are showered with morale-raising gifts, while German and Japanese children receive ordinance instead.

1952 - Rudolph the Red Reindeer commits suicide in a D.C. hotel, mere hours before he was scheduled to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee. (Later historical revisionism changes his name to the "Red Nosed Reindeer") Santa is also suspected of Communist sympathies, given his willingness to give presents for free to poor and rich alike. However, he is later cleared when it is discovered his activities are actually a scheme to raise brand awareness for clients as diverse as Coca-Cola, the Milk Marketing Board, and the Reindeer Herder's Association of Greater Lapland.

1962 - After Santa begins delivering presents in Cuba on Christmas Eve, the CIA becomes aware of the gifts and orders Claus to remove them. He refuses, and a tense standoff is ended on Dec. 28 only after a compromise solution offering US development aid for Santa's Workshop in return for the withdrawl of the gifts based just 90 miles from American shores.

1970 - Polar-American tensions had been building for years, due to a long standing demand of the Nixon administration that Santa divert all presents bound for North Vietnam. Santa finally capitulates to the demand in August, but does not seriously crack down on elves who create intentionally defective toys for American kids in protest. The quality of gifts from Santa is the lowest in almost 50 years, and Americans remain, on the whole, anti-Christmas for most of the 70's.

1983 - The recovered reputation of Santa in the US in the early eighties is lost, when the head of Christmas Inc. is found coked up in the men's room of a trendy North Pole nightclub. With support from Mrs. Claus, Santa goes through rehab and remains drug free for several years.

1997 - The launch of e-gifts.com, an interactive website offering business-to-Christmas support services, enrichens several mid level elves who worked together on the start-up. The company, with revenues of 4 dollars on the year versus
over a billion dollars in expenses, trades at well over $150 a share for most of the year and takes much of the luster off the "old economy", "bricks and mortar" Workshop. Oh, and as for those elves who started the company, toss them a quarter when you see them sleeping outside your neighbourhood liquor store.

2003 - A visibly drunk Santa exposes one of his huge man-boobs during a performance of "God Bless America" at a regular season baseball game in Seattle. Santa and ESPN are fined $500 000 for the incident. The Mariners lost to the White Sox 5-2.

2004 - Republican lawmakers propose a constitutional amendment, preventing anyone from "making the Yuletide gay" or "donning now their gay apparel". As of press time, the amendment looks likely to pass.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: John_D ]


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lacabombi
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posted 19 December 2004 03:45 AM      Profile for lacabombi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Merry Chirstmas is what I say to my Christian friends, neighbours, acquitances, clients etc..

I have locked horns regarding this issue with community agencies management when I was at their employ. They (White Christians) wanted to apppear "inclusive", for their own personal interests and ambitions, that is.

Not one Muslim, Jew, Hindu or any of the many faiths, and no atheist, within the community that I have known for twenty years has even expressed any objection to being wished "Merry Christmas" nor have they shied away from saying "Merry Christmas" to others.

This non-sense of "offending" or "fear of offending" non-Christians is a rhetorical scam used by some to prop up their own career prospects. Hey, they are "inclusive", multiculturally sensitive ! Mon oeil !!


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 04:01 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
John_D:

You *sleigh* me!!

Can I steal that and send it on to all my pinko, commie fellow-travelling friends? (w. credit, of course!)

They'll LOVE it!

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 December 2004 04:01 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I ain't much on religion but I'll turn the other cheek here and wish everyone a "Merry Christmas" in honour of a li'l baby who grew up to set an example of anarchist socialist humility to us all.

Peace on earth, goodwill to all men (and that means females too, so don't get started).


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 19 December 2004 04:10 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyone should feel free to distribute that little history lesson, so long as there is some attribution for my intellectual property/wasted time.


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 19 December 2004 04:37 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I too find it annoying that saying the word Christmas is apparently so offensive that it has to be avoided at all costs -- if someone wished me a happy Hanukkah I wouldn't be offended -- I don't even celebrate it but if it was genuine I would appreciate the sentiment (not that I necessarily even look Jewish). And let's not forget that the '12 days of giving' are just such a tradition after all that it just makes sense to avoid the word Christmas....But then again what we're 'celebrating' in stores and under our tree's isn't really all that Christ related anyways. So this basically is a generaic commercial holiday designed to make us buy stuff. So I think ppl should call it annual gift giving day -- and leaves all the other holidays including Christmas alone. Maybe make Annual Gift
Giving day December 27th eh? Or to get it over with earlier and make it the 22nd?

*Yes, yes if we are celebrating it of course*


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 19 December 2004 05:07 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gift giving was a part of Saturnalia, as well as drunken debauchery.

Those Romans knew a thing or two about having a party.

Hi Yo, Saturnalia


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2004 05:41 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hinterland, your comment was gratuitous and uncalled-for. But I guess it is just part of the general zizanie developing on this board for some reason. We all seem to be sniping at each other.

Ironically, I could make the same comment in spades about what you said about l'Acadie, franco-Ontarian communities etc. Saying something was or is a practice in Québec does not mean it is not a practice elsewhere in the world. I was merely talking about where I live.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 19 December 2004 08:48 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred Day:
Merry Christmas.

On the other hand, if I know I'm talking to an atheist, happy winter solstice.


All in all, I'd prefer the Merry Christmas. Winter solstice signifies the start of 3 months of misery to me. (I hate winter)

Sort of like wishing me a "Happy Funeral" or "Festive Enema."


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kittielungs
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posted 19 December 2004 10:04 AM      Profile for Kittielungs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I always go with Merry Christmas. That's what I was raised with, though we were not an overtly religious family. I thought that it's the government that shouldn't be pimping one religion over another? Since I'm no government, I'll say what I like. If it harms someone for them to hear me wish them a Merry Christmas then they are the ones with the problem not me. Imagine shitting your pants should someone say Happy Hanukkah.

I try to keep in mind that I should be working at having a good time with people at this time of year. Everyone, I meet I smile and try to get atleast a smile out of them. Like putting aside all the griping and frustration that is built into this season, and just trying to be nice and friendly, and share a laugh or two. That I can do with anyone and no one's religion has to suffer for it.

Merry Christmas you Babblers.


From: Middle window, third little minnow on the left | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 December 2004 11:05 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't thinkyou are doing your Jewish friends any great favours by saying "Happy Hanukkah". It is a very insignificant holiday that barely registers in Israel. It only gets played up in North America because it occurs around the same time as Christmas.

If you really want to be inclusive towards people you know who are Jewish (who actually celebrate holidays - which I don't). Ignore the Happy Hanukkah crap and instead at the appropriate times of the year wish them Happy Passover or Shana Tova. Those are actually important holidays that are much more on a par with Christmas or Easter.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2004 11:17 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I concur. I have several Jewish friends in different European countries (most non-observant, but a few are) and none of them celebrate Hannukah either for religious reasons or as a family tradition, except one who was originally Canadian - he does some of the Hannukah stuff for the benefit of his daughter, whose mum is Sephardic - Moroccan. She views it as a North American holiday.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 19 December 2004 11:18 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But that is the entire point behind "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holiday's" isn't it? I mean, if Hanukkah is raised to the same status as Christmas then Jewish people too can experience the joy of rampant consumerism where children are showered with excess to the point where they have no gratitude or appreciation as one gift is the same as the last and is just added to the pile as their parents make snide asides with regard to how much they spent and the cheap thing they got in return and teenagers enter into raucous tantrums because their parents gave them the $69 MP3 player instead of the $369 i-tunes player. Ah, Christmas ... only six shopping days left ...

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 19 December 2004 11:34 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
fairydust said:
quote:
I have been informed....
....that would be a first.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joe
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posted 19 December 2004 12:31 PM      Profile for Joe        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfred Day:
Since Muslims recognize Christ as a prophet, are they offended at being wished Merry Christmas?
Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet, not as Christ. No other religion recognizes Jesus as Christ.

I think the difference in salutation might have something to do with a rural vs. urban split. I was on a conference call last week and was struck by the difference between those saying Happy Holidays (mostly from Toronto) and those wishing a Merry Christmas (mostly from smaller cities) in spite of the fact that there were non-Christians on the call.


From: City | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 19 December 2004 12:55 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
pogge's quote above has the catchy phrase, "crybaby christians."

frank rich in the nytimes (login: babblers8, pwd: audrarules) highlighted the other day that:

quote:
You'd think peace might reign in a nation where there is so much unanimity of faith. In Newsweek's "Birth of Jesus" holiday cover article — not to be confused with Time's competing "Secrets of the Nativity" cover — a poll found that 84 percent of American adults call themselves Christian, 82 percent see Jesus as the son of God, and 79 percent believe in the Virgin Birth. As for "The Passion of the Christ," it achieved the monetary landslide of a $370 million domestic gross (second only to the cartoon saviors Shrek and Spider-Man).

What is this about? How can those in this country's overwhelming religious majority maintain that they are victims in a fiery battle with forces of darkness? It is certainly not about actual victimization. Christmas is as pervasive as it has ever been in America, where it wasn't even declared a federal holiday until after the Civil War.

What's really going on here is yet another example of a post-Election-Day winner-takes-all power grab by the "moral values" brigade. As Mr. Gibson shrewdly contrived his own crucifixion all the way to the bank, trumping up nonexistent threats to his movie to hype it, so the creation of imagined enemies and exaggerated threats to Christianity by "moral values" mongers of the right has its own secular purpose.

The idea is to intimidate and marginalize anyone who objects to their efforts to impose the most conservative of Christian dogma on public policy. If you're against their views, you don't have a differing opinion — you're anti-Christian (even if you are a Christian).



From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 19 December 2004 12:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Skdadl, why would you want to be deliberately rude to someone you know is not a Christian and does not celebrate Christmas?

I was not being deliberately rude to "someone."

I was writing directly to Hinterland, employing a facetious tone, as is our wont in exchanges of this kind. I would never insult Hinterland; or, let me precise that: I would only insult Hinterland in the ways that I'm pretty sure he enjoys being insulted.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 19 December 2004 02:03 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Can I steal that and send it on to all my pinko, commie fellow-travelling friends? (w. credit, of course!)

But check out John_D's profile. His credit charge may be 5.25% compounded semi-annually.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 03:18 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 19 December 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Happy Holidays leaves a bland taste in my mouth, so when I know people of different faiths I wish them their relative holidays. My Muslim friends are wished a [insert new word here every year] Ramadan, Happy (c)Hanukah, or whatever they celebrate. Of course, the whole Merry Christmas shtick is now for friends and family.

I simply give Atheists and strangers "season greetings" because last year when I wished an unknown person a "merry Christmas" on Christmas eve, I was given a bloody nose and called a "fucking Christian pig".

quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
Gift giving was a part of Saturnalia, as well as drunken debauchery.

Those Romans knew a thing or two about having a party.

Hi Yo, Saturnalia


And so did the Vikings!


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 December 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Merry Winter Solstice Greetings (Said to be appropriately nondenominational by an astronomer. )

To lagatta: skdadl and Hinterland were being smartasses. I can be a bit literal-minded as well and have occasionally fallen into the trap of interpreting someone as being serious when they were not; we're all human, and we all make mistakes. Let not a mistake be a ruiner of a funny event.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 19 December 2004 05:07 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh yes, doc, I do understand that. I'm not so much literal as bruised by childhood teasing, being a bit of an outsider - then in adolescence under hippiedom I was admired greatly for being an artist, but the sting never goes away. I suppose I was emoting (not thinking): fuck! What if she starts doing that to me...
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sine Ziegler
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Babbler # 225

posted 19 December 2004 05:35 PM      Profile for Sine Ziegler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I still write my christmas cards for people at work with either " Seasons Greetings" or " Happy Holidays". I am a christian but I don't want to flaunt my christmas traditions in the faces of the many different people I work with from diverse cultural backgrounds. This is, however, only the workplace.

With friends I will give out Merry Christmas cards and share in christmas tradition.

The only thing that bothers me is that public schools, as far as I know, don't learn christmas songs and have christmas trees at school. Why can't they have all the different cultural songs and trees and whatnot?


From: Calgary | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 19 December 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Because the other ones aren't in any way comparable to Christmas. There are a couple of Chanukah songs, but as Stockholm and Lagatta pointed out, it's a very minor festival. There's no way it could avoid coming across as patronizing.

For what it's worth, the website of the Toronto District School Board refers to Christmas Break, Good Friday and Easter Monday.

I also noticed that Canadian Tire, The Bay and Zellers all mention Christmas prominently on their websites.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Embarassed American
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posted 19 December 2004 07:15 PM      Profile for Embarassed American     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
John D -- thanks I got a good laugh out of that!

I don't know how much of Canada got to see Mystery Science Theatre 3000 but this thread reminds me of this little ditty "Merry Christmas: If That's OK":

[On the Satellite:]

MIKE: Hi folks. Welcome back to the satellite. As a special treat Crow, Tom and I have written and are going to perform an original Christmas carol.

CROW: Mike, it's not just for Christmas. It's for holidays of all faiths.

TOM: Yeah, & don't call it a carol because Carol is a woman's name and we want this song to be all-inclusive.

MIKE: Right. Why don't you hit it Cambot.

Let us all now sing
Our praises to the Lord today
Although you may not share
Our belief system
Which is perfectly O.K.

CROW: Maybe you worship an abstract being
That is kind of vague.
Or maybe you just
Worship a guy
Who's name is Greg.

TOM: Perhaps your religion doesn't
Include a time called Lent,
But whatever your religion
Is, we support you one hundred percent.

MIKE: So sit around the fire
And have a chestnut roast,
Or raise a glass in toast
To "Happy Days" Donny Most.

TOM: But if you prefer to eat
Indian food on Christmas day
I can only shrug my shoulders
And say "Namaste"

[spoken] Namaste!

CROW: Personally I prefer,
Turkey, gravy and salad
But lets never forget
All cultures are valid.

MIKE: So let's have peace on earth
And cut out all the bull.
Let's have a holiday season
That's multi-cultural.

CROW: If there's one point
We'd like to make
With this festive holiday song,

TOM: It's that Christmas comes just once a year
So for a few days
For crying out loud

ALL: Can't we all just get along?

MIKE: Hey that was actually pretty good.

TOM: That was great. It was lovely...

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: Embarassed American ]


From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 19 December 2004 08:03 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hephaestion - Normally I charge 5.25%, but for you, I'd knock it down to 4.5%. You're killin' me here, though. This is coming out of my pocket. If it was anybody but you, no way they get this deal. Seriously. This is some grade A satire here, and you're getting it at cost. Can't go lower than that, my friend. Don't tell my wife I offered this deal, she'll think I'm crazy. There's no profit in this for me... damn, 4.5%! Can't believe I'm doing this, you're gonna owe me for this Heph, ol' buddy.

Tell you what. Still not convinced? I'll throw in the undercoating for free. I wouldn't do that for just anyone, either. Take some time, think it over. There's free coffee in the lobby if you'd like some.


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 19 December 2004 08:24 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I simply give Atheists and strangers "season greetings" because last year when I wished an unknown person a "merry Christmas" on Christmas eve, I was given a bloody nose and called a "fucking Christian pig".

Well, that's definitely over the top!!!

Oh yes, the Vikings partied hardy, and who could blame them. Once the sun stopped dropping, and started rising again, those in the North had something to celebrate. Perhaps more than most.

Seems that Christmas is more of a northern celebration. Far as I know, there were no comparable celebrations in the southern hemisphere.

A Viking Christmas Poem

'Twas the night before Christmas and all through the Hall
Not a creature was stirring, not warrior nor thrall.

And I in my armor, my shield and my helm
Was drunker than anyone else in the Realm.
I staggered upstairs and fell into bed
While four quarts of mead were ablaze in my head.

Then up from below came the sounds of a brawl
So I grabbed up my axe and ran down to the Hall.
I missed the last step and crashed down in a heap
Thinking, "Why can't those low-lifes downstairs go to sleep!"

When what to my wondering eyes should appear
But two brawny strangers, wielding mallet and spear.
I said to myself, "We'll soon have them beat!"
Then I noticed ten warriors laid out at their feet.

I gave out a yell and leapt into the fray...
I'll always regret my poor choice of that day.
For the one laid his hammer to the side of my nose
And up, up, up to the rafters I rose.

Then came a lone frightened voice from the floor,
"Those are no mortal warriors -- that's Odin and Thor!"
Then they looked at each other and they said, "Battle's done.
Now they know who we are, it no longer is fun."

Then Thor raised his hammer, and his elbow he bent,
And with a loud crash, through the ceiling they went.

I crawled through the Hall and flung open the door,
Not really sure that I'd seen them before.

The snow bathed in starlight, the moon like a glede,
I saw them ride off on an eight-legged steed.

And I heard them exclaim, 'ere they flew out of sight,
"TO HELA WITH CHRISTMAS, WE JUST LOVE A GOOD FIGHT!"

quote:
In Scandinavia...The most important of the three celebrations was Yule (Jól) or Hökunótt, "mid-winter night,"...

Now there's something I didn't know. The word Yule is of Scandanavian origin. Apparently means fun and party.

[ 19 December 2004: Message edited by: fuslim ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 19 December 2004 08:32 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A bit more on the Viking Yule celebration

quote:
And a key part of "drinking Jul" - today as in the year 1000 - is brewing special Christmas beers.

In Norway alone there are more than 50 kinds of Juleoel, or Christmas beers, ranging in strength from 4.5 to 9.9 per cent alcohol, brewed just before the holidays each year. They are darker and more flavourful than regular beers.

In Viking times, Helge Soerheim said, people thought drinking themselves into a stupor on holiday beer and other alcoholic beverages would create a euphoric connection with supernatural forces. And failure to get drunk at a Viking feast was an insult to the host, implying that his alcohol wasn't good enough.


"No officer I haven't been drinking, I've been establishing a euphoric connection with the supernatural...hic"

quote:
Even after Christianity made inroads, brewing Jul-time beer remained a serious matter. In medieval times, every farmer was required to brew Christmas beer or risk fines and worse.

"Everyone had to make two batches of Christmas beer a year, one for themselves and one for guests, or be fined three riskdollars," Olaug Flakne, 31, Norway's only female brew master, said, referring to the currency of that day.


This just keeps getting better...

quote:
Not everyone is happy about the connection between Christmas and the brewing of beer. In the 1960s, the Christian Sobriety Society demanded that the name Juleoel, or Jul Beer, be banned.

The national brewers' association, however, successfully countered that Jul has nothing to do with Christmas or Christianity but stems from Viking times.


Why am I not surprised by the 'Christian Sobriety Society'?


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 19 December 2004 08:39 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In Norway alone there are more than 50 kinds of Juleoel, or Christmas beers, ranging in strength from 4.5 to 9.9 per cent alcohol, brewed just before the holidays each year. They are darker and more flavourful than regular beers.

in england, they're nicknamed "winter warmers" -- i've been having (hic) a few bottles this weekend (hic) of (hic) double chocolate stout.


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 19 December 2004 09:01 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's past time to proclaim the new Holy Trinity:

Santa, Rudolph, and the Spirit of Profit.

quote:
It might interest people to know that one of the countries in the world that makes the biggest deal about Christmas is - JAPAN! Where less than 1% of the population is Christian! I'm told that if you walk down the Ginza in Tokyo at this time of the year you will be greeted by the most garish neon Christmas decorations anywhere on earth replete with Santa Claus, Christmas trees and fake snow etc. . . - and all these Shinto Japanese people happily wishing each other "Merry Christmasu."

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 December 2004 09:24 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How many people here were aware that in Japan (1% Christian and about 99% Shinto) Christmas is a big deal and all over Tokyo there are Santa Claus figures, fake snow Christmas trees and gift exchanges!

We shoudl just be like the Japnaese and just take whatever we find appealing about any holiday no matter what its orgins.

In fact, in Japan, the "in" thing is to have a Shinto birth ritual, a Buddhist funeral (or is it the other way around) and now the new trend is to have a Christian wedding!

Way to go Japan! maybe they will start having Bar Mitzvahs as a coming of age ritual!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 09:27 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, nonaddictive, gender neutral, winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most joyous traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, and with respect for the religious persuasions of others or their choice not to practice a religion at all; a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the generally accepted calendar year 2005, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions have helped make our society great, without regard to the race, creed, color, religious, or sexual preferences of the wishees.

(This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others.)


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 19 December 2004 10:02 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:

A Viking Christmas Poem

[...]

Now there's something I didn't know. The word Yule is of Scandanavian origin. Apparently means fun and party.


Soooo.....shouldn't it be a Viking YULE Poem?


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
gula
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posted 19 December 2004 10:47 PM      Profile for gula     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can anybody tell me how Saint Nikolaus aka Santa Claus moved from the 6th of December to Xmas. And whtever happened to the angels who used to bring the presents.

Sorry but I cant find the question mark on a spanish key board.


From: Montréal | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 19 December 2004 11:53 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Way to go Japan! maybe they will start having Bar Mitzvahs as a coming of age ritual!

It is already happening in some rich European and American families, the big thing for non-Jewish boys is to get a Bar Mitzvah.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 December 2004 12:16 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you're not Jewish can't you just make it a jazzed up Confirmation?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 20 December 2004 12:21 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well the typical bar mitzvah is only slightly more inappropriate for non-Jewish boys.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 December 2004 07:55 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Papal_Bull:
It is already happening in some rich European and American families, the big thing for non-Jewish boys is to get a Bar Mitzvah.

What?? I've never heard of that! (Of course, I don't come from a rich European or American family, either.)

That's really weird. How do they prepare for it - Hebrew school for Goys?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 December 2004 08:15 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
That's really weird. How do they prepare for it - Hebrew school for Goys?

Grim[ace] and bare it...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
yankcanuck
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posted 20 December 2004 08:34 AM      Profile for yankcanuck     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dormy:
[QB]Muslims recognize Jesus as a prophet, not as Christ. No other religion recognizes Jesus as Christ.

Hmm... maybe I listen to too much late night radio, but I recall that Jesus is believed to have travelled to India with his little brother, where he was recognized as a great spiritual leader, was entertained by royalty and did much work in "missing years". Indian Buddhists have kept record of this. They called him "Issa Buddha". When Jesus left India, he reputedly said. "I must go to Jerusalem and die now"... at which his hosts were distraught.


From: What wisdom can you find that is greater than kindness? | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 December 2004 08:43 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
re: Jesus and his little brother...

You are aware of what they called the house, outbuildings, yard and surrounding area where Joe, Mary and the boys lived...?

The Messianic Complex


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Embarassed American
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posted 20 December 2004 08:44 PM      Profile for Embarassed American     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
re: Jesus and his little brother...

You are aware of what they called the house, outbuildings, yard and surrounding area where Joe, Mary and the boys lived...?

The Messianic Complex


Hmm. I thought that was THIS place:

[ 20 December 2004: Message edited by: Embarassed American ]


From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
canadianpatriot
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posted 21 December 2004 02:22 AM      Profile for canadianpatriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember buying some Bagels at a neighbourhood Jewish bakery and the Cashier wished me a happy haunukah.
eventhough i am not
so you see it works both ways.

From: National Capital | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 21 December 2004 02:32 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

What?? I've never heard of that! (Of course, I don't come from a rich European or American family, either.)

That's really weird. How do they prepare for it - Hebrew school for Goys?


I've got no bloody clue. Chances are they just hold a party with gifts and a few yarmalkas (sp?) and call it a Bar Mitzvah.

I love watching quick little serials on CityTV in the morning before school.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
fairydust
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posted 21 December 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WHEW!! Such a firestorm.
From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
fairydust
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posted 21 December 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for fairydust     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh! I almost forgot, MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR to all. Here's wishing EVERYONE has a good holiday how ever they choose to celebrate it.
From: everywhere | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged

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