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Skdadl, what I meant was that the "objective" part was old. It stems from Orwell's description of pacifists in WWII as being "objectively pro-fascist." It was brought back after 9/11 by rabid neo-cons to denounce anyone who would question Bush's policies. Some have also described Ralph Nader as being "objectively pro-Bush."

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That terminology erects a paranoid category of thought-crime -- that is, someone critical of my view (on whatever) is not just disagreeing with me about the effects of my position; he is slyly claiming to know something about what is going on in my head, and nothing I can say -- short of agreeing with him, of course -- can acquit me of that charge.

It is circular and paranoid and hallucinatory, and of course we all know where such rhetorical games led in, eg, the Soviet Union, where political dissenters were often diagnosed and incarcerated as mentally ill.

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Hitchens, by the way, used to pour scorn on such rhetorical manoeuvres. But in the last three years or so he seems to have entirely forgotten his former pretensions to intellectual rigour.

[ 05 September 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]

But that is an excellent and clear example of the problem. The vast majority of pacifists in WWII would have been strongly anti-fascist, and in fact it is hard for me to imagine a pacifist fascist, certainly of the Nazi variant.

Even if one thought that their position was wrong, that it would help the enemy cause, one would still have to accept at face-value their self-identification as anti-fascist. We can say that we believe that someone like that is wrong, but we can't logically say that she is pro- something else that she hates. It is just that she also hates war, as much or more.

[ 05 September 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]

To be serious, Mandos, I do not think that it is the Trotsky in their pasts that makes the neo-cons scary. The philosophy that attracted them most deeply was elitist and openly prescribed dishonesty and deceit, presumed to be justified if one was destined to be a Master of the Universe.

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Originally posted by nonesuch:
Without some force to moderate their actions, there won't be any world left to own.

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