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Author Topic: The most over-rated 'artistes'.
Erik Redburn
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posted 15 February 2007 07:02 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't want to spam the board, but here's another pressing issue that's been nagging at me lately. There are just sooo many mediocrities out there who are treated like Gods by some 'art' critics but look like nothing but pretentious hacks to the likes of me. Like Where exactly did directors like Bergman or Fellini get their reputations, other than constant references by Woody Allen? (who hasn't made a good film himself since Bullets Over Broadway...)

Personally I think they're responsible for every bad 'art' film made by undergrads in the last forty years. (any fans out there please don't take it personally...sometimes what looks cutting edge at nineteen doesn't look so hot at thirty nine. All just in fun anyhow) The worse one of all has to be Andy Warhole but I don't know if anyone takes him seriously anymore -including himself, most likely. Anyone else have a personal "favourite" they'd like to add to the list and why? (or one they're brave enough to defend?)

[ 15 February 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


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Stargazer
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posted 15 February 2007 07:49 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I love Woody Allen. I think he's a genious and I have to say that his latest movies have been much better than his mid movies. Of course, his earliest ones are still my favorites. I love his books, because they make me laugh out loud (we have similar senses of humour). I really respect the fact that he writes, directs and does the screen play for all his films and I like the thought he puts into his characters. I love his over the top neurotic craziness, because that reminds me of me too and I find it endearing while most everyone else finds it annoying.

Okay, so over-rated painters, IMHO, are the Group of Seven. There isn't much I can say except - mediocre.


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Sven
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posted 15 February 2007 07:56 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Woody Allen is a genius and I totally agree with your assessment that his recent films have been much better than most of his films in the 1990s.

Sleeper is, IMO, one of the funniest movies ever made. Annie Hall, Manhatten, Crimes and Misdemeanors, and Husbands and Wives (although the latter is from the early 1990s) were just fabulous.


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jas
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posted 15 February 2007 08:04 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:

The worse one of all has to be Andy Warhole but I don't know if anyone takes him seriously anymore -including himself, most likely.

I doubt whether he ever took his films seriously. PS: He is dead, you know.


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Papal Bull
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posted 15 February 2007 08:27 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't say enough good things about Warhol, actually. After seeing the Cronenberg curated exhibit at the AGO I became quite interested in Warhol's work and developed a more mature taste in art. It was an evolution from opposing everything after the Baroque period to really enjoying the joys of contemporary artists.

But I hate Beck, I mean, I don't know if he is considered an artiste, but I hate every single one of his albums more than the last. I mean I'd even rather listen to Rush than Beck.

ETA:

quote:
Like Where exactly did directors like Bergman or Fellini get their reputations

Ummm...Seventh Seal and many other great films for the Ingmar. Federico made La Strada and gained a lot of prestige for writing for Marc'Aurelio satirical paper.

What a weird, Amero- and Hollywood-centric comment to make. That's like saying Kurosawa only had a good reputation because of the Magnificent Seven and A Fistful of Dollars.

[ 15 February 2007: Message edited by: Papal Bull ]


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Erik Redburn
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posted 15 February 2007 08:44 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jas:

I doubt whether he ever took his films seriously. PS: He is dead, you know.


I know, just being a bit too sly myself I guess. I doubt Warhol ever took himself seriously no, but I still hate what he did to the modern art scene. Don't get me wrong about Woody tho, I love the guy too, thought 'Play it again Sam' was one of the funniest ever, even liked Stardust Memories. (most critics panned it) Has he done any really good ones in the last ten-fifteen years though?


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Papal Bull
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posted 15 February 2007 08:50 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Curse of the Jade Scorpion was pretty good.
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Erik Redburn
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posted 15 February 2007 08:57 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One I haven't seen, maybe I should take it out sometime. I'll never pay for another Fellini though.
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Erik Redburn
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posted 15 February 2007 09:35 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And should say I'm no fan of no-brow Hollywood fare, most films I've liked recently seem to be coming from Latin America and Asia now. Gong Li is a true babe. Bergman's Seventh Seal was good, but IMO most of his films spent Way too much time on obscure 'symbolism', were way way too Serious and humourless and Intellek-shwal, and frankly, really very boring. Fellini IMO was just weird with his attraction to human grotesques, and Never goes to any point that made it worth the long waits. Kurosawa was great in his way, Ran was a true beauty, Kagamusha better, but not exactly original. I liked Truffault's Jules et James. That I could understand.

Don't let me interrupt the flow though, mostly want to see what other 'high brow' material is thought overrated. Must be other contrarians here who like a bit of plot, characterization and believable dialogue too.

[ 15 February 2007: Message edited by: EriKtheHalfaRed ]


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-=+=-
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posted 15 February 2007 09:44 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't say I really pay attention any more to who is considered an "artiste".

The internet has completely cut out any intermediary of criticism. Mostly I haunt the torrent tracker sites, and just go by word of mouth.


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Stargazer
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posted 16 February 2007 05:02 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Coffee and Cigarettes, a supposed art film which is incredibly boring and completely vacuous. A bunch of celebrities in a coffee house drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. I love artsy films, but this was just terrible.

Sven, Play It Again Sam is hilarious. As for Woody's recent films I'd go with Small Time Crooks, Match Point and Scoop.

Warhol was interesting, but I think, judging by his massive diaries, which I read, he is very very shallow. Not a big fan of his movies, except for "Flesh For Frankenstein". Joey Dallesandrao wel.......yummy! Totally overrated - "Flesh"


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Catchfire
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posted 16 February 2007 07:22 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Coffee and Cigarettes, a supposed art film which is incredibly boring and completely vacuous. A bunch of celebrities in a coffee house drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes. I love artsy films, but this was just terrible.

Testify, Stargazer. Testify.

Re: Fellini. It's the "Nirvana Effect." For every Nirvana, there's a hundred Silverchairs. Even Woody Allen can't live up to his own billing. Sure, Match Point was "pretty good." But Manhattan and Annie Hall were fucking masterpieces.

quote:
Sick Boy: It's certainly a phenomenon in all walks of life.
Mark: What do you mean?
Sick Boy: Well, at one time, you've got it, and then you lose it, and it's gone forever. All walks of life: George Best, for example. Had it, lost it. Or David Bowie, or Lou Reed...
Mark: Some of his solo stuff's not bad.
Sick Boy: No, it's not bad, but it's not great either. And in your heart you kind of know that although it sounds all right, it's actually just shite.
Mark: So who else?
Sick Boy: Charlie Nicholas, David Niven, Malcolm McLaren, Elvis Presley...
Mark: OK, OK, so what's the point you're trying to make?
Sick Boy: All I'm trying to do is help you understand that The Name of The Rose is merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory.
Mark: What about The Untouchables?
Sick Boy: I don't rate that at all.
Mark: Despite the Academy Award?
Sick Boy: That means fuck all. It's a sympathy vote.
Mark: Right. So we all get old and then we can't hack it anymore. Is that it?
Sick Boy: Yeah.
Mark: That's your theory?
Sick Boy: Yeah. Beautifully fucking illustrated.

From Trainspotting (1996) [a.k.a. "merely a blip on an otherwise uninterrupted downward trajectory"]

[ 16 February 2007: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


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oldgoat
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posted 16 February 2007 07:27 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
After seeing the Cronenberg curated exhibit at the AGO I became quite interested in Warhol's work and developed a more mature taste in art.

Yeah, I had never paid much attention to Warhol beyond knowing the he had really encouraged Lou Reed back in the day. I went to see the exhibit at the AGO with my kid who knows a fair bit about him, and came away a lot more interested.


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oldgoat
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posted 16 February 2007 07:39 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ya wanna know who's a totally overrated fine artist? Thomas Kinkade, that's who.

I happened to wander into his gallery in Yorkville, where one would expect a certain level of artistic gravitas. He has galleries all over. What a schlockmeister! I wouldn't single him out if he stuck to selling his stuff in malls. He'd be close to the top of the heap in terms of that ilk. Or maybe calenders, or the sort of greeting cards you send your grandmother.

What bothers me is his pretentiousness. "The Painter of Light" he calls himself. (caps his) Renoir and Rembrant yes, but not him. Truly, the man could teach Madonna a few things about self promotion.

Banal crap.

edited to add: oh yeah, as I was walking through the gallery, a salesperson was following me along talking about him like he was the new Van Gogh, and asking me about my house and talking about where things might go in it. I think she got paid by the square meter of material she sold.

[ 16 February 2007: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


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dgrollins
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posted 16 February 2007 07:58 AM      Profile for dgrollins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:

Okay, so over-rated painters, IMHO, are the Group of Seven. There isn't much I can say except - mediocre.



Thank you---When it comes to art, Iím pretty much a know-nothing hack. I like what I think is pretty, basically. That said, Iíve never Ďgotí the Group of Seven (and felt guilty about it...does it make me a bad Canadian) I've always thought their contemporary Emily Carr was much more talented--there is just something striking about the simplicity of her work.

But, what do I know...like I said...hack


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jas
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posted 16 February 2007 08:24 AM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
Ya wanna know who's a totally overrated fine artist? Thomas Kinkade, that's who.

Can you call him a fine artist? He's a commercial artist and makes no bones about it. I don't think we could call him over-rated, because he's not even on the scale. He doesn't even rate.


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Martha (but not Stewart)
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posted 16 February 2007 08:40 AM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
Ya wanna know who's a totally overrated fine artist? Thomas Kinkade, that's who.

In fact, Kinkade is not "overratted" since the critics correctly hate his work. Kinkade knows this, and even takes pride in it: "The critics may not endorse me, but I own the hearts of the people."


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oldgoat
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posted 16 February 2007 08:42 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps, but I had the impression he was selling himself as a fine artist. I know lots better commercial artists.
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oreobw
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posted 16 February 2007 08:51 AM      Profile for oreobw     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Re directors...

Woody Allen - A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy is one of my favourites.

I also like a lot of the late forty's stuff such as To Have and Have Not (Howard Hawks) African Queen (John Huston) and some of John Ford's stuff.

Not exactly art house films but lots of fun to watch especially now that more and more are becoming available on DVD.

I guess anything that is film noirish or has Bogart in it is good with me.

[ 16 February 2007: Message edited by: oreobw ]


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jas
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posted 16 February 2007 08:53 AM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
Perhaps, but I had the impression he was selling himself as a fine artist.

I think you're right, but he's also aware that he's not recognized in the fine art world. "A genius ignored", I suppose.


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oldgoat
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posted 16 February 2007 08:56 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Speaking of Woody Allen, my favourite of his is Broadway Danny Rose. A delightful and modest little film, but a real gem. It had one of the funniest scenes ever. There's a shootout in a warehouse belonging to a circus. A helium filled truck gets hit and all of the dialogue and shouting starts to happen in a high squeaky voice.
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oreobw
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posted 16 February 2007 09:09 AM      Profile for oreobw     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wasn't aware of Broadway Danny Rose. I just looked it up on Amazon. Sounds good.

Also, it costs only $12.78 on DVD. I'll include it the next time I order some DVDs.

Thanks for mentioning it.


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Papal Bull
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posted 16 February 2007 10:31 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...Wait. What? Not liking the Group of 7? That's not even worse than not enjoying Robertson Davies. All through high school they were one of the few things that actually kept me interested in Canadian cultural quirks in lieu of the broader sort of "global citizenship" thing that seems to be going on with a lot of other young people.
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Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 16 February 2007 10:36 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I feel sorry for those that don't 'get' the Group of 7, and even more sorry for those that feel they must denigrate what they don't understand.
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dgrollins
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posted 16 February 2007 10:43 AM      Profile for dgrollins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:
I feel sorry for those that don't 'get' the Group of 7, and even more sorry for those that feel they must denigrate what they don't understand.

I hope that's not directed at me. Because then I would reply that I feel sorry for those that can't appreciate that art is subjective.


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quart o' homomilk
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posted 16 February 2007 11:45 AM      Profile for quart o' homomilk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
steven spielberg anyone? never understood the hype, myself.
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Stargazer
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posted 16 February 2007 11:49 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
LTJ, I majored in Fine Art and Art History in Uni. Believe me, I got the Group of Seven alright. I just never got how they were such apparent geniuses. Re: Emily Carr, spot on. Her work was much more palpable for me.

There are so many other Canadian artists who just never got a chance due to the fact that when Canadian art is discussed, it is almost exclusively about the Group of Seven. Paul Kane is widely overlooked. As are many amazing female artists.

[ 16 February 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]


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Papal Bull
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posted 16 February 2007 12:03 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by quart o' homomilk:
steven spielberg anyone? never understood the hype, myself.

Same here. Jurassic Park was cool when I was a kid, but I went back and watched it recently. Not particularly good.

Likewise he has a destructive tendency to ruin his own films. Something that he shares with George Lucas.


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Stargazer
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posted 16 February 2007 12:20 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
George Lucas - totally over-rated.

I prefer Peter Jackson, even before his LOTR stuff. For fans of horror/gore Bad Taste was quite good.


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laine lowe
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posted 16 February 2007 12:44 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mel Gibson
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Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 16 February 2007 01:05 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
LTJ, I majored in Fine Art and Art History in Uni. Believe me, I got the Group of Seven alright. I just never got how they were such apparent geniuses. Re: Emily Carr, spot on. Her work was much more palpable for me.
The Group of Seven represent the first uniquely Canadian art movement - a movement to which Carr was a contemporary, and in which she is recognised and played a part, though she was never a member (nor was Tom Thomson).
quote:
In the 1920s she came into contact with members of the Group of Seven (artists) after being invited by the National Gallery of Canada to participate in an exhibition of Canadian West Coast Art, Native and Modern. She travelled to Ontario for this show in 1927 where she met members of the Group, including Lawren Harris, whose support was invaluable. She was invited to submit her works for inclusion in a Group of Seven exhibition, the beginning of her long and valuable association with the Group. They named her 'The Mother of Modern Arts' around five years later.

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Papal Bull
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posted 16 February 2007 02:32 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Peter Jackson achieved film perfection with Dead Alive/Braindead in 1992

"I kick ass in the name of the Lord"


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siren
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posted 16 February 2007 03:31 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lard Tunderin' Jeezus:

... She was invited to submit her works for inclusion in a Group of Seven exhibition, the beginning of her long and valuable association with the Group. They named her 'The Mother of Modern Arts' around five years later.


From whence does this quote originate? I had the impression that Carr was rather marginalized by the Group of 7.

Most over rated artiste -- Isabella Rossellini. I always want her to be sooo good, even saying her name is an excercise in high brow culture.

Yet, well, see The Saddest Music in the World. Although I am still thinking about it all these years hence.


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Catchfire
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posted 16 February 2007 04:35 PM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know what you guys are talking about. I fucking love the group of seven.

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Stargazer
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posted 16 February 2007 04:48 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 17 February 2007 07:01 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't that the one the Seven Samurai's was ripped off from?

Really have to ask though, were Spielberg and Lucas ever really thought of as artists by anyone either? Warhol at least tried to push the envelope a bit.


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Papal Bull
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posted 17 February 2007 08:06 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
George Lucas was an artist to me until Star Wars I
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-=+=-
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posted 17 February 2007 08:27 PM      Profile for -=+=-   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:
Isn't that the one the Seven Samurai's was ripped off from?

Really have to ask though, were Spielberg and Lucas ever really thought of as artists by anyone either? Warhol at least tried to push the envelope a bit.


Kubrick admired Spielberg.


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Erik Redburn
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posted 17 February 2007 08:43 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Spielberg is a good technician. And I guess he's had a few good moments, I thought Poltergeist was a lot of fun first time I saw it. Jaws One made me leap out of my seat a couple times, back when those cheesy "surprises" were relatively new. Never thought of him as an artist though. Maybe there's no meaningful definition for that either though. Spielberg probably did more to make Hollywood movies (mediocre as they always were on average) all about big budget Effects than anyone else. (I kinda liked Starwars when I first saw it PB, but we were all abit younger back then. )

Nother fine artist I thought overrated was Tony Only. Not much sympathy for his mini-tax revolt either.


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jas
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posted 17 February 2007 10:46 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by EriKtheHalfaRed:

Nother fine artist I thought overrated was Tony Only. Not much sympathy for his mini-tax revolt either.

You mean Toni Onley? Funny you mention him, as he definitely came to mind when you started this thread (but I don't like to be mean). Yes, his misty, "west coast" layered pastel landscapes (late '70's early '80's?) used to irritate me, probably because they became his trademark for a while, and as such became gimmicky and generic - and too open to parody - to my uninformed artistic sensibilities. But apparently he does do other stuff.


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jas
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posted 17 February 2007 10:51 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to wonder about Jackson Pollock, too, as in, how hard could it be to throw splashes of colour onto a large canvas? I withhold judgement for the time being however, until I become a little better informed in these matters.
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Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 18 February 2007 09:15 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by siren:

From whence does this quote originate? I had the impression that Carr was rather marginalized by the Group of 7.


Wikipedia: Emily Carr

[ 18 February 2007: Message edited by: Lard Tunderin' Jeezus ]


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Merowe
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posted 18 February 2007 12:16 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
I used to wonder about Jackson Pollock, too, as in, how hard could it be to throw splashes of colour onto a large canvas? I withhold judgement for the time being however, until I become a little better informed in these matters.

I understand Pollock might come across like that, and personally I've never much warmed to him either BUT I have come to respect what he was about. I'm a practicing artist myself, more conservative than him I suppose, but over the years I've come across colleagues who I respect who have a real passion for him. They've brought me round some. His stuff isn't much in the eye-candy department, it moves more along Duchampian/intellectual lines with I think a big spiritual component. He was pretty heavily into certain American Indian philosophical systems and perspectives and this shaped his work. There was a fascinating article in Scientific American a few years back that analysed Pollock's work vis fractal geometry and the results were amazing. Far from being the apparently completely random non-patterns they appear to be, in fact the pieces they studied displayed a correlation to fractal geometry that could not have been accidental; his works displayed a scalable symmetry, a one inch square displayed the same structure as a one foot square and a one yard square etc....Which suggests he knew what he was about, and what he was up to was identifying those aspects of the real world that Mandelbrot didn't reduce to his fractal mathematics for another twenty years.

Interesting, no?


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 February 2007 08:12 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's certainly an angle on Jackson Pollack I never heard before. He did have a good sense of overall design (or at least I always thought) and put some of himself into his work, but I'd thought the stuff was supposed to have just burbled up from his subconscious somewhere. Maybe that was just the popular theory when Freud and Jung were favourites among art historians. But how come people keep saying they used to think the same...until they became "more sophisticated"?
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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