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Author Topic: Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke dept.
Tolok
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posted 20 February 2004 12:36 PM      Profile for Tolok        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just for the record, Canadians are not humorless. We're humourless, OK? And in case you're planning a trip, jokes in Canada are not illegal. They're just federally regulated. And a good rule of thumb is this: We're not humorless about Anglophone Canada. Want to make a cheap crack about curling, or the queen, or redneck Albertans? Feel free. But we are humorless about Francophone Canada.


quote:
Instead of falling into po-faced whining like the Toronto Star, Britain's Sun ran a picture of two Frenchmen carrying those dinky little male purses they're partial to over there, under the headline: "They Don't Call It Gay Paree For Nothing." Instead of huffing and puffing about "racist filth" like Canadian Members of Parliament, one British MP attempted to introduce the following motion: "This House does not fancy elderly French women." That's the way a mature, confident society deals with such provocations--with cheap jokes and extensive lists of "Famous French Poofs"--not the reflexive cringe that cries "racism" and calls for "hate crimes" investigations.


Heard any really good Canadian jokes lately?

Severe Winter Storm

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Tolok ]


From: Out of Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
FPTP
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posted 20 February 2004 12:49 PM      Profile for FPTP        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyone old enought to remember Andrew "Dice" Clay?
Same story.
Some people complained about the sexism and racism and the defense was "hay it's just a joke."

There's making a funny and original comment about culture, then there's simply laughing at people because you think what they do is funny because you are stupid and insecure.

It's question of maturity, sure. Just like "Dice" Clay, Conan O'Brian's jokes will just fall into the toilet bowl of human history.

A simple guide:
It's not that you can't laugh at homosexuality:
Videotaping or photographing effeminate-looking men and laughing at them is stupid.
Scott Thompson (very gay) from Kids in the Hall as very, very gay Buddy Babylon lampooning homosexual stereotypes is clever.

Or culture:
See: Bolywood/Hollywood.


From: Lima | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 01:11 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well we can all thank ShitSteyn for brightening our day, can we? Mark Steyn never fails to disappoint in making every discussion even more boring and hysterical than it ever could have been on its own. Granted, he does have a certain skill at being able to cast every topic as proof of Canada's utter and hopeless mediocrity, but in the end, all it shows is that he's a fool, a liar and an uninspired, unoriginal writer.

On francophone Canada being off-limits to being satirised, he reveals that he is in fact ignorant or unaware of how that satire is properly done. Codco used to do this hilarious skit satirising MusiquePlus called "PlusMusique" (PlusMusique, PlusMusique, more French music than you ever want to hear!), with a character called Manon Pelletier (...her accent was precisely that of an educated Quebecker speaking English, not the offensive, Blaque Jacques Shelaque crap we usually hear), and just yesterday, I saw a 22 Minutes sketch with Cathy Jones riffing on the PQ's programme to get Quebeckers to have more babies (...Vote Parti Québécois...cheaper tuition and a lot of sex!). This is good satire, and everyone I know (who understands English well enough and isn't a rabid separatist, who, on the whole, wear humourlessness like a badge of merit) finds this kind of satire funny and effective.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
There's making a funny and original comment about culture, then there's simply laughing at people because you think what they do is funny because you are stupid and insecure.

And somewhere in there is "having a hissy because someone chose the second option, the low road".

Was Triumph funny? Not so much.

Was it a tragic incident on a national scale? No.

Did the opportunists, keenly eyeing an open microphone, crawl out to denounce a dog puppet the way one might denounce the opening of an amusement park called "ZundelWorld". Oh yeah.

But on the bright side, at least it allowed Canada to put a real tragedy — Don Cherry's hate speech about visors — behind us for a while and move on.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Newbie
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posted 20 February 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One problem with Conan's material is that in addition to being offensive, it was about stereotypes of FRENCH people, not Quebecers.

It was like going to Wyoming and making jokes about stiff upper lips, cheerio old bean, pip pip, tea and crumpets and Camilla Parker-Bowles, except infinitely more offensive, of course.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 01:35 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In that vein, I've noticed recently that Canadian neo-cons (forever playing to the their own, America-worshipping neo-con audiences) are re-casting francophone Canadians' traditional opposition to fighting British wars as tangential support of the Anglo-American bigoted stereotype that the French are cowardly and surrender at the drop of a hat. This is beyond dumb.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
FPTP
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posted 20 February 2004 01:44 PM      Profile for FPTP        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Re: Canan. The Canadian taxpayer paid for that crap. That's the big deal. That's why it's national news.

We got burned, though, deservedly.

We paid about $1 million and now they're going to do some pseudo-academic study to show that we made the money back in "real media worth".

The whole incident arose from US-worship. If we host a lame latenight filler show then we're a player on the world stage!

We got what we paid for. Conan's jokes should be slammed for being stupid. And the gov't should be slammed for..well being stupid.


From: Lima | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
FPTP
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posted 20 February 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for FPTP        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Also, the fact that Canadians are humourless is clearly false. Look at all the Canadian comedians working down south. Also travelling around world-wide, I've noticed humour is part of our stereotype. Particularly sarcasm which is hard to take if you are humourless.
From: Lima | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 20 February 2004 01:55 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Any time you make fun of a distinct minority, you're treading on thin ice. Especially so in light of Quebec's relationship with the rest of Canada. Just imagine if the skit took place in a predominantly black neighborhood, or Muslim or Jewish one. It also depends on how it's done. Don Rickles for years did ethnic insult humour in nightclubs and on (cable) TV, and was able to get away with it by using a "light" touch. What might be acceptable in stand-up, won't necessarily play as a "skit."
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Just imagine if the skit took place in a predominantly black neighborhood, or Muslim or Jewish one.

I can imagine the variety of actions that could have been taken. It's a good thing I wasn't in Québec City and Triomphe le chien-juron had decided to confront me with his little rant. There'd be one puppeteer walking around now who'd be well aware of just what it is like to have a hand up his back-passage, believe you me.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 February 2004 02:21 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...the Anglo-American bigoted stereotype that the French are cowardly and surrender at the drop of a hat.

These same people conveniently forget about the Brits fleeing the Wehrmacht at Dunquerque. The Germans in May 1940 would have likely defeated any army on the planet with their new tactics.

These bigots ought to visit the Canadian invasion beaches at Normadie, where they'll see monuments to "La Chaudiêre" Regiment. While they're over there they could also check out the many monuments to Maquisards who died fighting the Occupation.

Here's an on-line memorial.

Then there are the cenotaphs from the 14-18 war. The long lists of the dead are particularly sobering.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We got what we paid for.

Well, what exactly did we think we were paying for? Surely we didn't shell out $1M for "funnier jokes"? So if we paid for exposure, we got it. If we paid for publicity, we got it in spades. What do you believe we paid for but didn't get?

quote:
Especially so in light of Quebec's relationship with the rest of Canada.

D'you suppose that someday — maybe not in my life, maybe not even in my children's life — we won't feel the need to tiptoe around Quebec like they're a sleeping bear? I really suspect that half the flap of this incident, and the Don Cherry incident a week earlier, have entirely to do with the fact that the (relatively lightweight) insults were pointed at "French guys". They're not people in a wheelchair, or terminally ill kids, for Gord's sake. Why are they sacred, when I'll bet any one of us could remember a dozen "Newfie jokes" like nothin'.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 03:29 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Magoo, you're trotting out the well-worn accusation that Québec somehow escapes all kinds of criticism regarding its political, social and economic policies (...I suppose I have trouble hearing it, what with all the loud criticism of Québec's political, social and economic policies coming from the ROC and all) or some bitter little voice inside of you is hissing "transfer payments"....(...God help us all!). That's what I understand when I hear "tip toeing around Québec", in any case. Those things have nothing to do with making unfunny, offensive comedy.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 03:39 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, I'm just trotting out my own, unworn assertion that I'm bored of collectively worrying if maybe we've offended them.

I'm just wondering when we can start treating Quebec the same as we'd treat Manitoba, or Ontario, or any other Province. In other words, when do they stop being the special case? When do we get to quit doing penance for not being considerate enough to lose the battle of the Plains of Abraham?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 03:43 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
When do we get to quit doing penance for not being considerate enough to lose the battle of the Plains of Abraham?

You can quit anytime, Magoo. In fact, I'd recommend it. Good for the soul.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cool! Outta the doghouse finally! So it's okay to say "put some English on your damn signs!" then? Geez. I got a fortune cookie with my lunch today, and it's printed on both sides. English on one, French on the other.

"On vous reconnaitra et honorera comme leader communautaire"

If we go so far as to make sure our Asian fortunes are bilingual, would a reciprocal courtesy be out of the question?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 February 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
al-Q'bong, the Oradour site is also relevant to the Mel Gibson thread - remember that he transposed that Nazi atrocity - burning down the church with the parishioners inside - to the context of the US war for independence, in his atrocious film "The Patriot"?

I have a friend who was a maquisard in Normandy. He is well over 80 now. By the way, though he hid several Jews and fellow partisans sought by the SS, he is, to put it mildly, no friend of the Likhud. Another leftist anti-semite, I guess ...

As for the cenotaphs, it is hard to believe that so many lads ever lived in some of those tiny villages, much less were all killed.

As for Magoo, it is virtually impossible for a unilingual French speaker to find a job other than fruit picking outside Québec. It is about time anglophones in Québec learned to function in the majority language. (A lot of progress HAS been made in that respect).


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda
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posted 20 February 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Brenda     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A few tasteless jokes about Quebec hardly compares to the discrimination of 10's of thousands of ENGLISH only Quebecker's that goes on every day. Who cares?
From: West | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 February 2004 04:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Brenda, there are no longer so many English-only Quebecers discriminating against the majority of the population. It is a whole generation since Law 101 was enacted, and most of them have realised that if they want to live here they will have to work and do business in the majority language.

Discrimination by old-style "Westmount Rhodesians" telling Québécois to "Speak white" may still exist, but it is much, much rarer than a generation ago.

In my neighbourhood the two dominant languages are Italian and Spanish, with a strong emergence of North-African Arabic, and many other tongues.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
FPTP
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posted 20 February 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for FPTP        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Newfie jokes are stupid too. Who says we tiptoe around Quebec? People criticize and make fun of each other all the time. Sometimes people go to far and offend people. What's so hard to believe about that?

If I were to immitate an Albertan by speaking in a caveman voice, that's stupid too. Anyone who laughs is understimulated.

Magoo, you'd argue anything. To reply: we paid for the Conan O'Brian show to come to Canada. $1 million dollar late-night lameness. He did his show exacly like he always does. I expected as much. In principle, we shouldn't give money to Los Angeles.


From: Lima | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 February 2004 04:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...remember that he transposed that Nazi atrocity - burning down the church with the parishioners inside - to the context of the US war for independence, in his atrocious film "The Patriot"?

I didn't see that picture.

I've been inside the church at Oradour. One can see its churchbell, melted into a blob from the intense heat from the fire that killed the women and kids stuffed into the church.

A couple of days ago I asked my friend from Slovakia if Lidice has been left empty like Oradour (although Oradour has been built up outside the original townsite). He said that people still live there.

I finally found out the correct pronunciation of Lidice this week:

Li-deet-se


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 04:57 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm guessing that Brenda's referring to discrimination against, not by, Anglos.

I have absolutely no idea how prevalent that is now, but I know that when Mr. Magoo Sr. was young and growing up in Arvida, it was pretty much a case of having to learn to fight, and be ready to do so every week. He speaks French, but our (real) name is pretty damn Irish, so he and his brother were bullied mercilessly until they learned to slap back.

quote:
As for Magoo, it is virtually impossible for a unilingual French speaker to find a job other than fruit picking outside Québec.

Perhaps, but we've made their life a little easier with regard to fortune cookies, food products, signage, documents, etc. All I'm asking is the same. What's unfair about that?

quote:
It is about time anglophones in Québec learned to function in the majority language.

What's the majority language in Ontario? Hell, I can go to Spadina, or Agincourt, and see Royal Bank signs in Cantonese. Why can't I go to Quebec and see a store sign in English?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 20 February 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sigh. You can, Mr. Magoo. The fact that it has to be in French too doesn't take away from that -- anymore than, say, same-sex couples marrying takes away from heterosexual marriage.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What's the majority language in Ontario? Hell, I can go to Spadina, or Agincourt, and see Royal Bank signs in Cantonese. Why can't I go to Quebec and see a store sign in English?

The majority language in Ontario is English, Magoo, regardless of the signs you see on Spadina. And I've heard plenty...PLENTY of bitching in Toronto about signs being only in Chinese. What is wrong there? Do people need signs to find their rear-ends or what?

But I'm only half-kidding. In a perfect world, Magoo, we'd have signs in everyone's language, or we'd all speak each other's language and there wouldn't be a problem. We also wouldn't be dealing with centuries of language marginalisation that was only addressed in the 60's. Anyway, you're arguing this issue the way you argued the affirmative action one; not from a practical point of view, but on a theoretical basis, and well, it's not as fun as you might think.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 05:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
you're arguing this issue the way you argued the affirmative action one; not from a practical point of view, but on a theoretical
basis, and well, it's not as fun as you might think.

Really? I see it as exactly the opposite. If the ideas in a discussion have merit, they'll have merit in the abstract too.

On the other hand, the "practical" point of view too often seems to boil down to "well, never mind if it's contradictory, inconsistent, or illogical, my way is the only practical one, so let's have a one-off just this once".

What's the "practical" take on the language issue? For most Canadians it's English and French, everywhere in Canada, no special exceptions.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 05:28 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Really? I see it as exactly the opposite. If the ideas in a discussion have merit, they'll have merit in the abstract too.

Says you. We're not talking about the nature of God here, we're talking about public policy that leads concretely to manifestations in the real world (...such as the presence or absence of bilingual signs). Anyway, why am I arguing this? There are bilingual signs all around me here, which is waaaaay more than I can say for the rest of Canada. Although it is better than it used to be, particularly in Ontario.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 05:50 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
We're not talking about the nature of God here, we're talking about public policy that leads concretely to manifestations in the real world (...such as the presence or absence of bilingual signs).

True enough. The "practical" response may, for many Francophones, be "Quebec is a French speaking minority in Canada, and our unique language and culture need to be protected".

Before taking that at face value, I'd try to apply the abstract elsewhere. In this case, I might ask "If unique languages and cultures must be protected, and if Francophones truly believe this, did they apply it to, say, Natives in Quebec?"

If so, then perhaps the practical response has merit. If not, then perhaps the "practical" response is nothing more than ethnocentrism propped up by lofty ideals.

Personally, "my Canada includes Quebec", but as I say, I'm kind of tired of acting like we're one misstep away from pissing off the separatists and seeing Quebec run away from home with a little satchel on its back.

Wanna enjoy this great big cultural melting pot along with the rest of us? Great. Welcome aboard!

Wanna enjoy all of the benefits of such, while maintaining that your culture, unique to all of the many cultures in Canada now, deserves some kind of special legal protection, lest it have to change and adapt like everyone else's? Well, therein lies my issue.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, wherein lies your issue is that you include too many things in one post for me to respond to adequately. As for this:

quote:
Before taking that at face value, I'd try to apply the abstract elsewhere. In this case, I might ask "If unique languages and cultures must be protected, and if Francophones truly believe this, did they apply it to, say, Natives in Quebec?"

...that question can be asked about the treatment of native languages anywhere in Canada, and the answer is dismal. I wouldn't try and accuse Québec of hypocritically claiming some sort of moral exceptionalism when the situation is bad everywhere. Why do you bother doing that, Magoo?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 20 February 2004 06:07 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why do you bother doing that, Magoo?

Because while you're quite right — the rest of Canada forced their euro-"culture" and language down the throats of Natives wherever they found them, Quebec is the only province to turn around and argue that their language and culture are special, and need special protection.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 06:18 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Quebec is the only province to turn around and argue that their language and culture are special, and need special protection.

Well, if the Manitobans want to protect the Manitoban language, and the Albertans want to protect the Albertan language (...officially known as Neuhochklein), they are more than welcome to. Or did you mean something else by that?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 20 February 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, if the Manitobans want to protect the Manitoban language, and the Albertans want to protect the Albertan language (...officially known as Neuhochklein)...

It's just barely within the ever-elastic bounds of possibility, Hinterland. People (including some on these very boards) have argued that British Columbia constitutes a distinct society -- one characteristic of which is, it's said, is the historical Chinook trade jargon.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 February 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think Boydfish is gearing up to protect Chinook Jargon (...let alone non-trade languages still spoken by real people) when he talks about the Canadians

Edited for the sake of harmony.
Edited again; fuck harmony.

[ 20 February 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 20 February 2004 06:35 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shhhhh... I was trying to avoid saying that name...
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 20 February 2004 06:38 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually there are many francophone Québécois - not a few unilingual - with Irish, and Scottish, names. Such as the recently deceased Claude Ryan. Blackburn is a very common (francophone) name in the Saguenay region.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 20 February 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
A few tasteless jokes about Quebec hardly compares to the discrimination of 10's of thousands of ENGLISH only Quebecker's that goes on every day. Who cares?

And exactly what discrimination are you talking about?


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 20 February 2004 09:13 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Actually there are many francophone Québécois - not a few unilingual - with Irish, and Scottish, names. Such as the recently deceased Claude Ryan. Blackburn is a very common (francophone) name in the Saguenay region.

My francophone mother's family has quite a few O'Rourkes. My Scottish-Irish father never succeeded in persuading them that O'Rourke was not in fact a French name.


From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brenda
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posted 23 February 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Brenda     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by clersal:

And exactly what discrimination are you talking about?



Federal gov. positions in Quebec only require English speaking people to be bilingual. Unilingual French persons are hired and promoted faster than bilingual english persons. Also my hometown is in a small english town in Quebec. A while ago the hospital hired a pure french receptionist that couldn't speak a word of english. Kind of hard to get an ambulance when someone is having a heart attack when the person doesn't understand the area language. It took 6 months to get her replaced. Only a few years ago some ex/current FLQ members tried to take a bus up there to protest that the sign laws were not being enforced well enough in this town. Luckily for them the QPP turned them back about 30 miles from the town. Also if your parents can't proove they went to an english school somewhere in Canada, their kids will have to go to a french school, no choice. I forget the hockey player that played for the Canadians, he was from the US, and they wouldn't let him put his daughter in an english school, so he quit and went and played for another team. This is just a sample of some of the discrimination.


From: West | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sara Mayo
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posted 23 February 2004 05:13 PM      Profile for Sara Mayo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also if your parents can't proove they went to an english school somewhere in Canada, their kids will have to go to a french school, no choice.

That is a really important law, which is widely hailed in Quebec as the biggest step to stop the decline of French in Quebec. It's too bad some Americans or British immigrants don't want their children to learn in a French environment, but the benefits of the law are too important to ignore.


From: "Highways are monuments to inequality" - Enrique Penalosa | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brenda
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posted 23 February 2004 05:28 PM      Profile for Brenda     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sara Mayo:

That is a really important law, which is widely hailed in Quebec as the biggest step to stop the decline of French in Quebec. It's too bad some Americans or British immigrants don't want their children to learn in a French environment, but the benefits of the law are too important to ignore.


Who benefits from this? The poor kid that can't speak english by the time he is 16 is going to be confined to Quebec for the rest of his life. The only benefit is the ideal of a distinct society. You would hardly think such a glorious and distinct society would have to force it own people to comply, for fear of it's destruction? (I know I'm oversimplifying the situaltion)


From: West | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 23 February 2004 05:32 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The poor kid that can't speak english by the time he is 16 is going to be confined to Quebec for the rest of his life.

I'll let you know the minute I ever come across a Quebecker with anglophone parents who was educated in French yet can't speak English. I'll be rushing to agree with you the second that happens, Brenda.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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Babbler # 370

posted 23 February 2004 05:46 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Also if your parents can't proove they went to an english school somewhere in Canada, their kids will have to go to a french school

Well it seems to me that parents would be ecstatic in having their kids able to read and write in two languages. I certainly was and am.

When I sent my kids to school, many, many years ago I had to fight to get them in a french school as we were not Catholic. In reality it wasn't that hard as I threatened to sue if they didn't let my kids in. I scared the shit out of the Principal.

Also Brenda I do believe that you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Now as opposed to 30 40 years ago a lot of english people are speaking french, I am talking about people my age because of our children. I am delighted that I can now speak two languages. I couldn't 40 years ago.

I worked primarily in french, and living in a small northern community have run into absolutely no problems. Or no problems that could not be handled.

As for your 'Pure french receptionist' I find this just a scritch hard to believe as AMBULANCE is the same thing in both languages. Perhaps she was just a lousy receptionist.

You are right Sara this was an important law and it is a shame that not more people take the advantage of having two languages.

Brenda just before you jump and say that then all French people should go to english schools. French is a much harder language than English and you must remember that Québec is surrounded on all sides by english speaking people.

Just to add:

quote:
Who benefits from this? The poor kid that can't speak english by the time he is 16 is going to be confined to Quebec for the rest of his life. The only benefit is the ideal of a distinct society. You would hardly think such a glorious and distinct society would have to force it own people to comply, for fear of it's destruction? (I know I'm oversimplifying the situaltion)


The poor kid watches American movies, plays on his computer and I'm sure by the age of 16 could be dumped in a 'pure' English town and would do just fine.

You are not only oversimplifying the situation, I don't think you understand much about Québec.

[ 23 February 2004: Message edited by: clersal ]


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 February 2004 05:57 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
but the benefits of the law are too important to ignore.

Besides propping up a culture artificially, what exactly are the benefits? Seems to me that the law saying "Speak French, or else" is both the law that may save the French language in Quebec, but was also the law that buried Native languages 50 years ago.

I guess the question that's on my mind is "How important is it to artificially protect a culture and language of a population that has no reservations whatsoever about imposing that language and culture on others that don't want it?"

And while it's obvious that changes in language and culture shouldn't happen under violence (such as when we took over Canada), is it necessarily wrong when cultures evolve under natural social forces?

France is a bit the same way it seems. Any hint of "English" encroachment sends them running to draft new protectionist laws, and yet it wasn't that long ago that they were in Vietnam, forcing their language and culture on people who already had one of each. How can you say, with a straight face, that your language and culture are irreplacable, sacred and need protection, when you're perfectly willing to use it to demolish another?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 23 February 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How can you say, with a straight face, that your language and culture are irreplacable, sacred and need protection, when you're perfectly willing to use it to demolish another?

Oh dear Mr Magoo. English is far from being demolished.

As for the native languages, agreed. Not only the languages but the culture. I hope that the native people will somehow be able to preserve their languages. As for their cultures, I am less less hopeful.
We humans are a bloody bunch.


From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 February 2004 06:14 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wilful destruction of Aboriginal languages, and in many cases of Aboriginals, occurred throughout Canada and indeed throughout the Americas. It is no more pronounced in Québec than in Ontario and the West.

Indeed, as a result of the "flag wars" and the quarrels between francophones and anglophones, Québec has one of the best records in terms of preservation and recovery of Aboriginal languages.

With the Baie James and Ungava development in Nunavik (Northern Québec) the Québec government attempted to rename Inuit and Cree communities that bore English names, with French names. The Native people would have nothing of that and nowadays the communities bear Inuktitut and Cree names.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 23 February 2004 06:22 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe. But we, not necessarily just Québec screwed up their culture. Bringing back native names makes us feel good.....
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
FPTP
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4780

posted 23 February 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for FPTP        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Talk about getting off topic! Can anyone explain to me why discrimination by anyone of anyone excuses immature tasteless jokes by anyone?

Certainly there are language and ethnic problems and bigotry isn't monopolised by anyone.

In light of this, Conan-type jokes about anyone should be discouraged.

(please no postmodern replies asking who "anyone" is)


From: Lima | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 23 February 2004 06:34 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thread drift is a Babble special. Agreed with what you posted. Is that a postmodern reply? What is a postmodern reply? Sounds, um, er intriguing?
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 23 February 2004 10:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So here I am in the middle of the Prairie, growing up anglosasky pure laine, then I meet this French girl, we have kids, who start out unilingual francos - I don't speak English to them for years, now they even correct my speech, I've become a French citizen...

I can't imagine the hardships that anglos in Québec must face.

I got assimilated into French and I'm surrounded by English!


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 23 February 2004 11:12 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It really is sad.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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