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Author Topic: Michael Moore is ....
abnormal
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posted 02 November 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People generally call him big and fat. It appears he's also a Busted. In addition to being big and fat he's also a liar.
quote:
I don't own a single share of stock!
filmmaker Michael Moore proudly proclaimed. He's right. He owns a lot, including Halliburton and Boeing.

From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 November 2005 07:41 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On a related note, WorldNetDaily announces:

quote:
Amazon reviewers give 'Marketing of Evil' 5 stars
'Powerful,' 'eye-opening,' 'I have not been able to put this book down'

...those would be the "reviewers" at Amazon.com.

Seriously. I'll wait for credible media to report on this before thinking there's anything here.

[ 02 November 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 November 2005 07:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And I'll move this to ... let's see ...

How about culture. Since Michael Moore is popular culture.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 02 November 2005 07:52 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A story on the right-wing site WorldNetDaily gushing about an attack on an enemy of the Right by a right-wing hack from the right-wing Hoover Institution. Will wonders ever cease?
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 November 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, I thought this belonged in banter. It's from the WorldNetDaily, which, I believe is a news parody site. Isn't it?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 02 November 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually I originally put it in Banter. But if you want the book you can buy it through Amazon - unfortunately they don't show the Schedule D in question.

Since it sounds like that form is a matter of public record does anyone know where to find it? That's be the easy way to disprove the book.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 02 November 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard Tanya Kim talking about this book and accepting its claims as gospel the other day.

While we're on Moore books, here's one that looks pretty good. From the description, it sounds like a balanced approach that examines Moore's good and bad points, yet doesn't buy into the "Micheal Moore is the best thing since sliced bread/Michael Moore is the spawn of Satan" split of opinions that people seem to have of him.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 02 November 2005 08:16 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Question: I suppose that the claims of the book can be assessed on their actual merits. Are they true? If true, does it really represent hypocrisy? And so on.

But, I wonder, why has the poster chosen to lead off with "big and fat", and then again emphasize "big and fat"? How is this relevant?


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 02 November 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't particularily care about whether the figures named are paragons of virtue or not, but of course the author would make a moronic assertion such as:
quote:
He says the dozens and dozens of examples of "liberal hypocrisy" he cites in his book "are of central importance in evaluating the validity and usefulness of liberal ideas."
"liberal"

They keep using this word, I don't think they know what it means.

Yeah, Barbara Streisand's fancy house invalidates centuries of liberal thought. Inconceivable.


From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 02 November 2005 08:36 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In American politics, I try never to confuse true progressivism with celebrity behaviour.

If Moore does own Halliburton stock, that would, in my mind, be shameful. It took me the better part of two years to get my mum to regret buying her shares of Halliburton. I told her if she passed, I would not touch that blood money. She has put it in her will that it will go to a bunch of nuns in Steubenville, Ohio. Whatever.

You DO have to walk the walk as well. I'd be interested in the veracity of these claims.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
FourteenRivers
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posted 02 November 2005 08:38 PM      Profile for FourteenRivers        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It sounds to me like the White House is probably funding all this propaganda...
From: Quebec | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 02 November 2005 08:46 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
People generally call him big and fat. It appears he's also a Busted. In addition to being big and fat he's also a liar. filmmaker Michael Moore proudly proclaimed. He's right. He owns a lot, including Halliburton and Boeing.
Apparently, Noam Chomsky has been working for .... wait for it ... MIT!!! (gasp - say it isn't so). But the 'reviews' for "Marketing of Evil" are truly priceless. I can see why some people think this is a parody site, but no, they're not kidding:
quote:

"Marketers are out to get America's youth, and they'll stop at nothing to do it. In 'The Marketing of Evil,' David Kupelian treats parents to a rare insider look at exactly how our children – and adults too – are being lied to, confused, and seduced by radicals and phony experts. The game's over, folks – the con men have been exposed. I urge every parent to read this eye-opening book."
– REBECCA HAGELIN, the Heritage Foundation

"Did you ever want to know – I mean really know – how and why America is being transformed from a unified, Judeo-Christian society into a divided, false, murky, neo-pagan culture? Even if you think you know the answers to those questions, in fact, especially if you think you know the answers, you must read David Kupelian's 'The Marketing of Evil.' So clearly does it expose the incredible con game to which Americans have been subjected that it offers real hope – because when our problems come this sharply into focus, so do the solutions."
– JOSEPH FARAH, WorldNetDaily

"Excellent! Simply excellent. If you want to solidify your Christian worldview – or just understand what the culture war is all about – you owe it yourself to read David Kupelian's 'The Marketing of Evil.'"
– DONALD E. WILDMON, American Family Association


C'mon, you can't make this stuff up. Oh, and BTW, does abbie think M Moore is big and phat or what? I get this little inkling from somewheres, I dunno.

[ 02 November 2005: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 02 November 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just hope no one ever finds out all of my hidden weaknesses, foibles and peccadillos. What I've forgotten in my fridge's crisper alone could spell the end of progressivism for decades.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 02 November 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh Emm Gee - this site keeps getting better and better! Heph, heph - look - Activists 'terrorize' ex-'gay' Conference. The Horror! The Horror!
quote:
Enraged homosexual activists, shouting obscenities and chanting "Shut it down," amassed outside a Baptist church in Boston to harass and intimidate attendees of a Focus on the Family conference on recovering from homosexuality through the power of God ... "The anger, rage and hatred were indescribable," said one conference participant, according to a report by the Christian Civic League of Maine. The activists' boisterous chants included, "What do you want? Bigots out. When do we want it? Now," "1-2-3-4 open up the closet door. 5-6-7-8 don't assume your kids are straight,"
oh no, can't type any more, can't stop giggling, gonna pee myself...5, 6 7 8 ...aaaaagh... gotta run.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 02 November 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
posted by Hinterland: I just hope no one ever finds out all of my hidden weaknesses, foibles and peccadillos. What I've forgotten in my fridge's crisper alone could spell the end of progressivism for decades.
What is in your crisper? ... a lost stash of KFC, circa 1999 that has mutated its own strain of avian flu that, once unleashed upon the unsuspecting citizenry, will end civilization as we know it?

From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 02 November 2005 09:17 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would point out to Mr. Kupelian that in his book, like so many other Christian conservatives, he seems to be arguing that the people he wishes to influence are too stupid to be able to tell right from wrong and good from evil anyway - they have had all their moral underpinnings knocked out from under them by 'slick marketing.'

Well geez, since the Holy of Holies in this country is using all available means to sell things, why does the right, especially the Christian right, fulminate about the monster that they tacit support when it comes to Wall Street? I mean how many of these great Fortune 500 companies they may own stock in (gotta protect the nest egg, ya know) ruthlessly market to children?

(psst - hey Kupelian -- its spelled c-a-p-i-t-a-l-i-s-m, played the American way)

So back to the first point, I guess Kupelian wrote his book on a sixth grade comprehension level since the good God-fearing GOP voters in Kansas are so dumbly blinded by slick selling, he'll need to spell it out for them like A-B-C.

And does his audience realise that they are, in essence, being treated like intellectual children by BOTH sides?


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Diane Demorney
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posted 02 November 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Big breath.... come on, you can do it!


Okay, I CONFESS. My great grandfather (on my father's side), back in the day, bought two (2!) city blocks of downtown Glasgow. Oh, the shame... anyway, as you can imagine, there particular pieces of property have since escalated in price. And they have been passed down, generation after generation. Except for the women. According to my ggparent, no women may take hold of such properties. Only their husbands. Well, now it's 2005... my brother (who is a complete financial idiot) is going to run into owning 2 city blocks of downtown Glasgow. It has, for the most part, been a cash cow to our family. Most triumphant. Here is the sticky part. My brother is not the oldest; he isn't even the second oldest. He is the third. Now, when my father passes, how does he deal with this particular cash cow? My father wants to just simply sell it and split it 4 ways. But, according to the original will, the proceeds can only go to the men.

The question: what should my father do?


From: Calgary | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Diane Demorney
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posted 02 November 2005 09:27 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Socialist:
Big breath.... come on, you can do it!


Okay, I CONFESS. My great grandfather (on my father's side), back in the day, bought two (2!) city blocks of downtown Glasgow. Oh, the shame... anyway, as you can imagine, these particular pieces of property have since escalated in price. And they have been passed down, generation after generation. Except for the women. According to my ggparent, no women may take hold of such properties. Only their husbands. Well, now it's 2005... my brother (who is a complete financial idiot) is going to run into owning 2 city blocks of downtown Glasgow. It has, for the most part, been a cash cow to our family. Most triumphant. Here is the sticky part. My brother is not the oldest; he isn't even the second oldest. He is the third. Now, when my father passes, how does he deal with this particular cash cow? My father wants to just simply sell it and split it 4 ways. But, according to the original will, the proceeds can only go to the men.

The question: what should my father do?



From: Calgary | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 02 November 2005 10:31 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
posted by Canadian Socialist: ... My great grandfather (on my father's side), back in the day, bought two (2!) city blocks of downtown Glasgow. ... And they have been passed down, generation after generation. Except for the women. According to my ggparent, no women may take hold of such properties. Only their husbands. Well, now it's 2005... my brother (who is a complete financial idiot) is going to run into owning 2 city blocks of downtown Glasgow. It has, for the most part, been a cash cow to our family. Most triumphant. Here is the sticky part. My brother is not the oldest; he isn't even the second oldest. He is the third. Now, when my father passes, how does he deal with this particular cash cow? My father wants to just simply sell it and split it 4 ways. But, according to the original will, the proceeds can only go to the men. The question: what should my father do?
He should check if the will can be broken, given that the original terms were set, what? 150 years ago. If that doesn't work, then you will have to marry Michael Moore.

From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 03 November 2005 09:08 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A review, from some poor soul who read "Do as I Say, Not as I Do" My sympathies to the reviewer.

quote:
Less surprising is that Do as I Say includes a number of distortions. Schweizer goes after Ted Kennedy for a tax-shelter scheme concocted by Kennedy's father in 1947, and asserts that Kennedy tries to "avoid" taxes by buying state bonds. What's his point? Liberals who support taxation shouldn't buy state bonds? And nothing is too petty for Schweizer. Harping on Moore, Schweizer attacks him for outsourcing jobs to Canada. Says Schweizer: "For his film Canadian Bacon, he filmed scenes that allegedly took place in the United States in Ontario." But Schweizer's assumption that Moore shot the movie in Canada for cheaper labor is somewhat undercut by the fact the movie is titled Canadian Bacon, not say, Rumble in the Bronx. Perhaps most misleading is Schweizer's claim that Al Franken is a hypocrite because he opposes abstinence-only education programs despite "sen[ding] at least one of his children to a private New York school that boasts an 'abstinence plus' sex ed curriculum." As Franken pointed out to TNR, abstinence plus is completely different from abstinence only, because the former teaches safer sex options which the latter excludes.

Some of Schweizer's examples aren't really hypocrisy even when taken at face value. Why does Michael Moore's supposedly lavish lifestyle make his advocacy on behalf of the poor hypocritical? Coupled with his financial success, Moore's willingness to support politicians who would give some of his wealth to those less fortunate may seem contradictory, but it actually demonstrates his principles -- i.e., a commitment to reducing inequality -- rather than undermines them.

It's only when Schweizer unearths this latter kind of failing that he's on solid ground. Several of his strongest passages involve Moore, who, for example, attacks Halliburton's war-profiteering but nonetheless enables it by allowing his charitable foundation to own significant amounts of Halliburton stock. Still, for the most part, Do as I Say is more concerned with scoring cheap political points by wounding the character of prominent liberals than with exposing any deeper moral rot on the left. Then again, for Schweizer and his ilk, those two things are usually one and the same.


Broken clock syndrome?

Edited to add: Has Moore responded to the Halliburton charge? I'm surprised by it, but it's probably the result of some not-so-sharp investment consultant working for the charitable organization. I doubt that Moore hand-picks the portfolio that his umbrella foundations invest in, and I don't imagine that he'd be happy with that stock choice, once (if) he was made aware of it.

[ 03 November 2005: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 03 November 2005 09:28 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This sounds like a severely low-brow version of a much better book: Intellectuals by Paul Johnson.

Mind you, Johnson does a real number on Marx, Russell, Sartre and Chomsky, digging up all sorts of gossipy dirt. But at least it's kind of fun in its pomposity.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 03 November 2005 11:15 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can someone explain the hypocrisy of Chomsky's anti-Pentagon stance? Taking military money, and criticizing military performance, seems to me to be admirable. The author makes his bloomer because he sees the Pentagon as an agent of imperialist ambitions, and not in the "peace" business at all.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stupendous-Girl
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posted 03 November 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for Stupendous-Girl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What is in your crisper? ... a lost stash of KFC, circa 1999 that has mutated its own strain of avian flu that, once unleashed upon the unsuspecting citizenry, will end civilization as we know it?

I believe he is allowing his carrots to "go bad" and will then unleash them on an unsuspecting population in a bid for developing a Thousand Year Carrot Reich.

Ughhhhhh, I need to eat something. I believe I am hallucinating again.


From: Alberty - Land of the Ralph-Bucks | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 03 November 2005 09:37 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a mutual fund. I always put the prospectus in the recycle bin without reading. I just might have a little Halliburton too.
From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 04 November 2005 10:30 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know my mutual fund is Halliburton-free. It's been performing terribly.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 05 November 2005 12:05 AM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
I know my mutual fund is Halliburton-free. It's been performing terribly.
I don't know, I'm running an on-line stock market simulation, and Haliburton has only gone down since I bought some out of curiosity. My ludicrously expensive Google stock is paying off hugely though . . . in imaginary money

From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 08 November 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to the NYSE, Halliburton is up to 59. Last November it was at 35. That's not too shabby. You must've bought it when it reached 70 a couple of months ago.

Link (this may not work)


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Woodford
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posted 23 November 2005 02:03 AM      Profile for Woodford     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Michael Moore's work he is very one sided.... except his arguments don't include lies. He does his research and presents it in an appealing way.

He does present facts... of one side.


From: st john's | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
letitbleed
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posted 23 November 2005 03:42 AM      Profile for letitbleed        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We could argue forever on the validity of Moore's work. A good anti-film to watch as a companion to Fahrenheit 911 is "FahrenHYPE 911" which demonstrates the out of context, selective background of Moore's assertions. Believe it or not.

Leaving that issue aside, none of you should believe that Moore is an avg man standing up for the avg guy. It is one big marketing gimmick. Moore lives in an expensive Park Avenue apartment where his neighbours are wealthy bankers and executives; his children go to the best Manhattan private schools (along with the wealthiest people in NY) costing about $50K a year. And Moore pays for the best private medical care than money can buy.

I have nothing against capitalists, socialists, left, centre left people making money in any legitimate way possible. And I don't doubt that Moore cares to some extent about the plight of his country. But, I think that extent only goes as far as promoting his movies and DVDs, that is his own pocketbook. Since 911, what have you seen Moore doing useful for the avg guy? Does he volunteer any time to a food kitchen? How much of his considerable net worth does he donate to the poor? Just watch, he'll crank up the PR machine for his new movie on US pharma companies. Moore's work is no more than goofy, wacky entertainment. Seen in that light it's harmless.

I have more respect for those who volunteer at homeless shelters or any other charity on a regular basis. Selfless volunteerism, not celebrity showmanship is the foundation of civility in our society.


From: vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 23 November 2005 04:58 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Since 911, what have you seen Moore doing useful for the avg guy? Does he volunteer any time to a food kitchen? How much of his considerable net worth does he donate to the poor? Just watch, he'll crank up the PR machine for his new movie on US pharma companies. Moore's work is no more than goofy, wacky entertainment.

Oh man. You couldn't be more wrong. Moore would be wasting his time and talent with every hour he spent in a soup kitchen. He does far more good poking holes in the delusions of the Great American Mythos, delusions that allow the poverty and injustice to continue. Unlike almost all other political media, Moore's work is widely seen and talked about. His contributions are huge and they promise to just keep getting better.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 23 November 2005 05:12 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I would note that Michael Moore's famous Oscar speech, for which he was hung, drawn, quartered, burned, crucified, and then hung some more and drawn and quartered again, is now the majority opinion in the United States of America:

quote:
We live in a time where fictitious election results give us a fictitious president. We are now fighting a war for fictitious reasons.

That's what sticks in the craws of those in the shrinking ranks of the Bush-Uber-Alles crowd: most Americans have shifted to Moore's viewpoint (even those who may not particularly like him personally).

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: beluga2 ]


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
letitbleed
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posted 23 November 2005 05:26 AM      Profile for letitbleed        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only delusion is believing Moore is doing anything substantial about poverty and injustice other than making sure he is rich and not impoverished. He's a talented satirist, live performance artist and sharp businessman, but a spokesman for your causes? What's he done lately? A guy that lives his Park Avenue lifestyle has no empathy with your plight. He hasn't lived in Michigan in years so what does he know about the working man.

Bashing Bush is easy these days and many blame Moore's performance during the election as one of the causes of Kerry's defeat. Fine, if he's a muckraker and troublemaker, but really, you ought to look at his lifestyle and stock portfolio and ask yourself if he's just taking you for a ride. He lives as well as the corporate greedheads you detest.

There are so many more social activists and charity workers who demand much more credit than Moore.


From: vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 23 November 2005 08:41 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Leaving that issue aside, none of you should believe that Moore is an avg man standing up for the avg guy. It is one big marketing gimmick. Moore lives in an expensive Park Avenue apartment where his neighbours are wealthy bankers and executives; his children go to the best Manhattan private schools (along with the wealthiest people in NY) costing about $50K a year. And Moore pays for the best private medical care than money can buy.


I assume that you have proof of Mr. Moore's address, and his children's school grades.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 23 November 2005 08:41 AM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, please. The man's a filmmaker, not a saint. He makes films that point out some ugly things, and he does it extremely well. That doesn't mean he has to take a vow of poverty.

Honestly.

Look at anybody who makes films on that scale, doc or drama, and you'll see a comfortable living. This is like saying that because Bruce Springsteen sings songs about regular working people, he shouldn't live like a successful recording artist. Dream on.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 23 November 2005 09:28 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by letitbleed:
... his children go to the best Manhattan private schools (along with the wealthiest people in NY) costing about $50K a year.

Not quite.

Mr. Moore has only one child; her name is Natalie, and she's 24 years old. She graduated from Sarah Lawrence College in 2004.

Tuition at Sarah Lawrence that year was pricey, $32,416, but comprable to most of the Ivy League.

quote:
He still has the same friends and wife, producer Kathleen Glynn, he had as a nobody. Moore drives a minivan at his home north of Flint and a Volkswagen Beetle when he's at his place in New York -- evidence that he hasn't gone all fancy.

Still, he acknowledges that wealth offers certain advantages. "I get to live on the Upper West Side and send my daughter to a good school." Daughter Natalie Moore just got her master's degree in women's history from Sarah Lawrence College. "And she's only 22," her dad brags.


[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5062

posted 23 November 2005 09:54 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by letitbleed:

Bashing Bush is easy these days and many blame Moore's performance during the election as one of the causes of Kerry's defeat.

Bashing bush was always easy, because only morons or the brainwashed could have ever been fooled by that stupid turd.

The rest of your post was equally vacuous, but I just don't care enough to comment further.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4748

posted 23 November 2005 10:04 AM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
the term "bashing" sounds like an innocent victim getting beaten and hurt, like "gay bashing" Discussing the deceit of a politician is hardly the same thing.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3322

posted 23 November 2005 10:15 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My objection to Moore isn't his real or imagined hypocracy, it is that he isn't actually a progressive.

Moore belongs to that peculiar American brand of liberalism that is in practice indistinguishable from the right. They may go on and on about the excesses of capitalism, like GM's destruction of Flint while making huge profits, but they don't see it as a structural problem with capitalism itself. Similarly, they claim to oppose the overt fascism of the Republicans, yet engage in the same behaviour themselves given the chance. Remember Kerry's "the wrong war at the wrong time" (implying that there is always a right war, as long as American imperial ambitions are protected).

Then there is the unquestioning worship of all things military, such as the oft-heard and belaboured "we support the troops, just not the war" garbage from liberals like Al Franken and his colleagues. They may say the rape of Iraq was illegal, but still want to see the troops well-protected and well-equipped as they go about their rampage. The connection between US soldiers and war crimes seems to escape them. The American Liberal doesn't want the soldier to as much as break a nail when they use thermobaric bombs against civilian populations.

They don't object to war crimes as long as the crimes are committed by a Democrat, such as the sanctions and bombing of Iraq and Serbia by Clinton. They don't have a problem with Pax Americana when it's their boy doing the damage. Tellingly, they don't even have a problem with a Republican destroying a helpless country if they convince themselves of the justness of it. So we get the strange support for the assault on Afganistan. On the one hand, they know Bush lied about the war on Iraq, yet on the other believe everything the Bush administration tells them about Afganistan's alleged attack on them. The evidence for Taliban involvement in 911 is as solid as yellowcake, yet what passes for the left stand lockstep with the right when it comes to bombing Afgan wedding parties.

In the partisan atmosphere of the US, if Kerry had won, the Moores, Frankens, and Stewarts of the US would be the ones explaining away torture and murder, and the Limbaughs, Hannitys and O'Reillys would be the ones screeching for impeachment.

Other than that, I think the real objection to Moore by the right comes down to basic economic competition. He is Pepsi to their Coke, Wendy's to their McDonands, CNN to their FOX. To both, a member of the public isn't a citizen, he or she is a consumer, first and foremost.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 23 November 2005 12:49 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with the people above who said that Michael Moore's job is to be a filmmaker, author and general gadfly... not to be a saint. That said...
quote:
Originally posted by letitbleed:
blah blah blah ... Since 911, what have you seen Moore doing useful for the avg guy? Does he volunteer any time to a food kitchen? How much of his considerable net worth does he donate to the poor? ... blah blah blah
quote:
Originally posted by letitbleed:
blah blah blah...What's he done lately?... blah blah blah
Of course, the gold standard test for determining whether something happened or not is whether or not letitbleed has heard of it. And when he does hear of it, of course this letter and the efforts referred to by it will be dismissed as mere grandstanding:
quote:
Tuesday, October 4th, 2005
One Month in New Orleans

Friends,

My staff has been down in New Orleans and on the Gulf Coast for nearly a month now setting up and running our own relief effort with Veterans for Peace. The overwhelming response from so many of you has directly affected the lives of thousands of people. Here's what we've been able to do with your help:

** Over 500 tons of food, water, clothing, medical supplies, baby products, feminine hygiene products, cleaning supplies, power tools, and a boat and trailer for reaching those still flooded by water have been distributed directly to those in need

** Over 10,000 aid packages have been sent by you via UPS and FedEx to our camp and distributed

** Over two million dollars in donations, food, water, and supplies have been sent and distributed

** Tractor trailers, dozens of 20 foot trucks, six school buses, and other vehicles arrived loaded with supplies. Most stayed on to help distribute donations

** Over 200 chainsaws, 100 generators and 2,000 gallons of bleach have been distributed

** Doctors, physician's assistants, nurse practitioners, psychologists, registered nurses, LPNs, paramedics, emergency medical technicians, and social workers have volunteered from across the country and joined forces with us to create several mobile medical units providing prescription medication, first aid supplies, diabetic testing equipment, insulin and tetanus shots for those digging through the rubble of their homes

** People got in their cars and drove from 37 states to work with us in our camp

But beyond all these statistics are the personal testimonies of what my staff has experienced. Electricity was provided to a family whose young son suffers from Cystic Fibrosis, allowing him to continue his treatment until electricity in his neighborhood was restored. A 60 year old woman on a respirator was found, still in her home despite a gaping hole in the roof. We patched the roof and gave her food and water. Supplies were delivered to the Houma Indians, who had received no help (not even a visit) from the Red Cross or FEMA. A roof was put on their Cultural Center in Golden Meadows and a generator was provided to keep a years supply of seafood from spoiling in the sun. A man in Lefitte was found sitting on his porch, the house surrounded by four feet of water. A canoe-load of supplies was paddled to his doorstep by two of our volunteers. New Orleans evacuees joined our efforts. They served as our guides, leading us through now decimated communities and taking us to the areas of greatest need.

You can read more of these in the diaries posted here.

The harsh truth that I must report to you is that the federal government and Red Cross relief efforts are still a disorganized, embarrassing mess with little or no help reaching most people – this more than a month after Katrina. It is the freelance guerilla efforts like ours that are getting through. We aren't waiting for approval and we aren't stopping. We will make sure Bush and Co. pay for their failure later, but right now hundreds of thousands are homeless, hungry and in need of medical attention. And the rest of us have a responsibility to help them.

We have joined forces with S.O.S. Katrina, an organization that began as a temporary coalition of pre-existing community organizations that is doing amazing work with volunteers. They have become, with your help, a bright light offering immediate relief to the families who have lost everything. Find out what S.O.S. Katrina and other similar relief groups need, right now, from you.

The relief effort's base of operations has moved two hours away from New Orleans to a more permanent location where there are reliable communication lines, shelter and a staging area for the distribution of supplies.

Thanks again, everyone, for lending a hand. We won't give up and we know you won't either.

Yours,

Michael Moore
[email protected]
www.michaelmoore.com


Feel free to browse through the 200+ pages on the Michael Moore site that make reference to Katrina relief efforts, although I'm sure that the aid to hurricane victims that Michael Moore and his organization have provided, coordinated and supported is completely dwarfed by what letitbleed has accomplished for the needy.

Now, I'm not sure what else (other than Katrina relief) Moore has done for the poor, or how much of his own money he gives to charitable efforts, but I won't be stupid or disingenuous enough to claim that it doesn't exist just because I don't know about it.

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 23 November 2005 01:07 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
Then there is the unquestioning worship of all things military, such as the oft-heard and belaboured "we support the troops, just not the war" garbage from liberals like Al Franken and his colleagues. They may say the rape of Iraq was illegal, but still want to see the troops well-protected and well-equipped as they go about their rampage. The connection between US soldiers and war crimes seems to escape them. The American Liberal doesn't want the soldier to as much as break a nail when they use thermobaric bombs against civilian populations.

Just because we know that American soldiers are committing war crimes does't mean we should turn a blind eye to soldiers being put in harms way, which is what's happening here. There's no reason to not keep these people safe. After all, many of them are in the army because of economic reasons. Remember the scene in Farenheight 911 where Moore shows the recruiters going to the mall? He mentioned that they have a tough time with the wealthier kids, so that's effectively sending poor people off to be blown up.

As for your ridiculous claim that these "liberals" would be supporting Clinton's such escapades? Moore was very critical of the Democrats in the run-up to the 2000 election (in which he voted for Nader, who has incidentally repeatedly called for troop withdrawl fairly early on, an action which would have prevented both deaths of American soldiers and war crimes) and was also critical of the Kosovo bombing campaign, which happened again under Clinton's watch.

From what I've seen, American "liberals" don't particularly like the Democrats, they simply choose them over the Republicans believing the Dems won't be as bad, and the Dems take their votes for granted. (Gee, which Canadian party could we be talking about here?)


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
retread
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9957

posted 23 November 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In Moore's case, any hypocracy on his part (ie owning Halbuton shares) stands out because of his attacks on the hypocracy of others. Human nature being what it is, I suspect everyone is right ... Moore is right in pointing out republican hypocracies, conservatives are probably right in pointing out Moore's hypocracies (which are probably on the same level as all of us non-saints).

The difference is, Moore isn't an elected official - his hypocracies are something he has to live with (just as we all have to live with our own), but don't really effect his country. People can pay attention to or ignore Moore as they wish; the same cannot be said of Bush and congress.


From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 23 November 2005 02:32 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But there's no evidence he owns Haliburton stock; there's just a report on a neo-fascist website.

That's how these guys operate; lie, and then watch as the lie becomes a hazy half-truth, discussed as if there might be something to it.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
waffler
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11017

posted 23 November 2005 04:56 PM      Profile for waffler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wasn't it Goebbels who said the bigger the lie the better.
From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
moderatsaklart
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10912

posted 23 November 2005 06:24 PM      Profile for moderatsaklart        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by waffler:
Wasn't it Goebbels who said the bigger the lie the better.

I wonder if Moore knew that?


From: gaia | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
jas
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9529

posted 23 November 2005 08:54 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moore selects facts and presents them persuasively, like any good propagandist will do. Moreover, he does it in a way that appeals to a large chunk of mainstream America. He's like the 'Roseanne' to Noam Chomsky's ...uh.. someone help me out here ...'Fifth Estate' (let's say). His contribution to mainstream American thought at this juncture in history is invaluable, not in the least part because he's reaching mainstream America. To suggest that his time would be better spent serving in a soup kitchen is utterly ridiculous and sounds a lot to me like envy. Letitbleed (and the others here who would deny Moore the fruits of his success), are you also suggesting that you would respect Conrad Black, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch "more" if they gave up their enterprises to work in soup kitchens? What the hell, then, is your point? And do YOU work in a soup kitchen? If you don't, why NOT?? And do you respect yourself less because you don't?

PS: That said, I would hope that fame and fortune do not go to his head - a fate that seems almost unavoidable for those who succeed in the world of American pop culture.

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: jas ]


From: the world we want | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 November 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Oh man. You couldn't be more wrong. Moore would be wasting his time and talent with every hour he spent in a soup kitchen.

Exactly. Fighting for social justice is just as important (and possibly moreso) than propping up status-quo charity systems.

However, I also agree with every word of Jingles' post above.

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ghost of the Navigator
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11029

posted 24 November 2005 10:15 AM      Profile for Ghost of the Navigator        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
In addition to being big and fat he's also a liar.

He endorsed the Libranos over the NDP in the 2004 election, so can anybody be all that surprised?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 24 November 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ghost of the Navigator:
He endorsed the Libranos over the NDP in the 2004 election, so can anybody be all that surprised?

I remember (and can find) stories where he warns people against election the Conservatives, such as this one, but I can't find any where he even mentions the NDP or endorses the Liberals.

quote:
In an interview with Ben Mulroney of CTV's etalk Daily while promoting his new film Fahrenheit 9/11 during a mid-June visit to Toronto, Moore said: "This guy (Harper) wants to take a big pair scissors and snip away your social safety net in a far greater way than what your dad was up to."

Mulroney's father, Brian, was the Progressive Conservative prime minister from 1984 to 1993.

In a June 23 interview with journalists, Moore said: "What I hope that Canadians will get out of this is to get people out to the polls to make sure Mr. Harper does not become your next prime minister." Asked why, he said, "Because we're trying to get rid of our conservatives."


Indeed, the tin-foil hat rag "Toronto Free Press" quotes him as attacking the Liberals as well:

quote:
"I can’t believe that you guys would think about going in that direction, when we’re (emphasis added) trying to get out of that direction," Moore told Toronto Star entertainment scribe Peter Howell

Nor do the Prime Minister Paul Martin-led Liberals escape the wrath of this ugly American. If it wasn’t for them, you see, there wouldn’t have been a chance for Canada to go Conservative.

"They moved to the right (under Martin), which then validated the right."


[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: RealityBites ]


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 24 November 2005 12:25 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
However, I also agree with every word of Jingles' post above.

I don't. Jingles glossed over the danger that soldiers, real human beings, are facing in Iraq while talking about war crimes. Jingles also typed nonsense about guys like Moore would be okay with such atrocities if a Democrat did them, after which I pointed out that Moore was critical of the Dems in 2000 and of the Kosovo bombing campaign. He didn't have anything good to say about Clinton until last hear; that's how bad things were under Bush. I found Jingles' post to be rather sanctimonious.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged

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