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Author Topic: "Gary Glitter" arrested on allegations of child sex crimes -- again
Hephaestion
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posted 30 November 2005 09:56 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vung Tau, Vietnam--

quote:
Once the man, known widely by his stage name Gary Glitter, sang to millions, prancing and strutting in his metallic jumpsuits as one of the shining stars during Britain's glam rock era in the 1970s. His pulsing Rock and Roll (Parts 1 & 2), with its booming single-word chorus of "Hey," became a sports-crowd anthem played endlessly in stadiums and arenas.

But Glitter, 61, has fallen a long way since his days as a larger than life pop icon, dogged by rumours of his predilection for very young girls since his conviction in London in 1999 for possessing child pornography.

And now he is sitting in a Vietnamese prison as local authorities pursue allegations he had sex with underaged girls, including a 12-year-old.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
RP.
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posted 30 November 2005 10:32 AM      Profile for RP.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard he might face a firing squad!
From: I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 30 November 2005 10:40 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RP.:
I heard he might face a firing squad!


Well that somehow seems appropriate for someone who has sex with 12 year olds at the age of 61. Too bad Canada wasn't so enlightened.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
The yodelling brakeman
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posted 30 November 2005 02:30 PM      Profile for The yodelling brakeman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I congratulate the Vietnamese on their enlightened policy towards this vile specimen.....maybe they could extradite Michael Jackson to Vietnam?
From: west coast | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 November 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Too bad Canada wasn't so enlightened.

Capital punishment is enlightened?


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 November 2005 02:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Only if you flog the person first. And only if it's someone you really, REALLY don't like.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 November 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I see! I am so totally in dark ages then! I just stone those I don't much like.

Off topic: The song Glitter is most famous for, the sports anthem, isn't played at Leaf games anymore.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Scout ]


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 30 November 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yep, song removed. Gary Glitter is a pig.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 30 November 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Capital punishment is enlightened?


the man is wealthy and 61. He prefers sex with 12 year old girls. we have no therapy to change his desires. so who do we sacrifice him or the girls? Or do we send him to prison to swap stories and teach those with lesser time how to perfect their methods? If he is executed we may teach many other people not to use children as sexual aids. People may stop buying poor children for a few moments enjoyment. What would you suggest?


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 30 November 2005 03:30 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Or do we send him to prison to swap stories and teach those with lesser time how to perfect their methods?

You think that regular fellas are just one good story by some crusty, 61-year old pedophile away from trying it themselves?

I think that's about as realistic as a straight guy "trying" a gay bath house because some gay guy told him it was awesome.

I just really don't think humans work that way. Sure, if you tell me all kinds of good stuff about the Vietnamese place you ate at last week I might try it, but sex with kids?

And what, exactly, do you think the "insider" secrets that Gary might pass on could be? "Buy them candy"?? "Use the fact that you're an adult and they're a kid as an 'in'"??


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 30 November 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

You think that regular fellas are just one good story by some crusty, 61-year old pedophile away from trying it themselves?

I think that's about as realistic as a straight guy "trying" a gay bath house because some gay guy told him it was awesome.

I just really don't think humans work that way. Sure, if you tell me all kinds of good stuff about the Vietnamese place you ate at last week I might try it, but sex with kids?

And what, exactly, do you think the "insider" secrets that Gary might pass on could be? "Buy them candy"?? "Use the fact that you're an adult and they're a kid as an 'in'"??


In most prisons or jails the pedophiles, rapists, and other vermin are housed in seperate quarters, in an effort to keep them alive. Most people in jail think that the death penalty is almost too good for such persons. Having them all together, yes they actually do swap stories, and teach each other ways to practice their perversions. They talk about websites and how to move kiddie porn around the world more safely for fun and profit. But i can see your point, we could simply put then into population and let them be killed, it takes the blood off societies hands, and protects the children we so often fail to protect.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Ichy Smith ]


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 November 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
the man is wealthy and 61. He prefers sex with 12 year old girls. we have no therapy to change his desires. so who do we sacrifice him or the girls? Or do we send him to prison to swap stories and teach those with lesser time how to perfect their methods? If he is executed we may teach many other people not to use children as sexual aids. People may stop buying poor children for a few moments enjoyment. What would you suggest?

That’s your argument? And you call it enlightened? Capital punishment never deters any behaviour. Hence the number of people executed and on death row in the USA. So you won’t be saving anyone by killing a guy like Glitter. You just get to be like any other murderer.

And what the hell do you mean by “sexual aids”?

What would I suggest as opposed to murder? Hmmm. Lock him up in a cell for the rest of his days. Simple. End of story and no need to sink the level of those we abhor.

Lock him up in a psych ward if it’s an incurable condition.

Deprive him of his freedom and the ability to do harm but killing him for the “right reasons” is still murder, state sanctioned revenge camouflaged with a bit of justice.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 30 November 2005 03:51 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Most people in jail think that the death penalty is almost too good for such persons.

Well, that settles it then, lets defer to those we know have bad judgement already on how to deal with other criminals!

quote:
But i can see your point, we could simply put then into population and let them be killed, it takes the blood off societies hands, and protects the children we so often fail to protect.

I don’t think Magoo made the point about putting them in to the GP. That’s you. And the blood wouldn’t be off societies hands, how could be when we would have just selected the executioners.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 30 November 2005 03:52 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:


Deprive him of his freedom and the ability to do harm but killing him for the “right reasons” is still murder, state sanctioned revenge camouflaged with a bit of justice.


Thank you - well said. Could you go over to the capital punsihment thread in the US forum and say the same thing?


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 30 November 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

That’s your argument? And you call it enlightened? Capital punishment never deters any behaviour. Hence the number of people executed and on death row in the USA. So you won’t be saving anyone by killing a guy like Glitter. You just get to be like any other murderer.

And what the hell do you mean by “sexual aids”?

What would I suggest as opposed to murder? Hmmm. Lock him up in a cell for the rest of his days. Simple. End of story and no need to sink the level of those we abhor.

Lock him up in a psych ward if it’s an incurable condition.

Deprive him of his freedom and the ability to do harm but killing him for the “right reasons” is still murder, state sanctioned revenge camouflaged with a bit of justice.



I am assuming you don't know anyone who was raped as a child. such a thing scars the child for life. Often child molesters get into positions where they have power over children. The thousands of victims of the hundreds of pedophile Roman Catholic Priests come to mind. I have known several of their victims. Often the "good works" these people do in their efforts to get into a position of access to children are used as an excuse to spare them harsh sentences. Sometimes a child molester works his way through all the children in a group or neighbourhood. There was recently a case in Niagara Falls where the molester made friends with a young boys single and poor mother, and gradually molested every child in that child's group of friends. He was on Parole when he did it, for the same offense.
The offender had a long trial to prove he was a dangerous offender, and it was very hard for the government to prove although he was known to have molested 20 or 30 boys. Often rapists do not see their victims as children, but simply as things to be used for sexual gratification. In Canada we cannot or do not afford to treat these people. Often on being charged we put them on house arrest and we do a poor job of supervision. Rape of Adults is not seen as a very serious crime in Canada in terms of sentencing, and child molesting is seen as less serious for some strange reason. The priests who destroyed the lives of so many orphans in Canada all got short sentences. What does that say to the victims.
Mr Glitter has been charged with similar offences in Gt Britain, now he has moved to Viet Nam to buy children. He sees them not as tiny little people who are young and must be nurtured, but as meat to be exploited. Bought and sold for his personal pleasure. Of course we need to protect him and make sure he lives a long and happy life.
The lives of his victims are of course of no consequence are they?


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 30 November 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:
I am assuming you don't know anyone who was raped as a child.
I assume that is supposed to "emotionally" incline us toward favouring capital punishment. On a related note, I am assuming that you don't know anyone who was falsely convicted of murder. There have been quite a few of them in Canada, and I would rather that they not have been killed by the state.

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MartinArendt
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posted 30 November 2005 05:22 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is this thread about? Capital punishment, or Gary Glitter?

I'm wondering if this is the right place for this discussion...

At the same time, I'm not sure how much farther the Gary Glitter discussion could go on its own.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 30 November 2005 05:25 PM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
I assume that is supposed to "emotionally" incline us toward favouring capital punishment. On a related note, I am assuming that you don't know anyone who was falsely convicted of murder. There have been quite a few of them in Canada, and I would rather that they not have been killed by the state.

Actually I knew David Milgaard a number of years ago 23 I think. And I am possibly more aware of the wretched things done to him by the Canadian Government than you are.
We are however talking about a man who rapes children and who has alledgedly committed multiple offenses. On one hand, no I do not believe in the death penalty. The Canadian Justice system is far too easily manipulated, and far too often the subject of police vendettas, ill prepared defense attorneys and weird and hopeless deals from Crown Attorneys. All too often it is used to ruin innocent citizens and to give light sentences to criminals who "co-operate" with the police.

OTOH, I have lived on the streets of Toronto. I worked for a time in pinball arcades on Yonge Streets. I learned about the Pain of children molested by people who passed them around like party favours. And I am aware that because of the danger their crimes put them in, these molesters often get minimal sentences. Canada cannot protect it's children. How often have we heard of a dangerous sex offender being released to a neighbourhood, and then being re-arrested within a few days. If we could force the government to pay for the damage caused by those who are released and offend again, release might be harder to get.
Then I go back to David Milgaards case, where he could not get parole, because he would not confess his guilt. Of course if he admitted his guilt, he would never have been found innocent.
My friends who were molested, were to get payments because of what happened to them. They were offered counselling. But when you have lived with the anger and horror of abuse for most of your life, when your life has been one of few opportunities, low self esteem, drug and alcohol abuse, an inability to trust others and no education, how does a few dollars and some counselling at the age of 50 really make anything better. Imagine knowing that God is a rapist. Imagine knowing that there is no one you can trust. From the age of eight or nine. And then when your abuser is caught, seeing his exemplary record of public service, and his age making the rape of you and your friends worth only a few months of his life.

In Canada there is no will to keep these kind of offenders in prison for long periods of time, as they are problematic. Often the victims of child molesting end up in prison, and any molester is an enemy. If we were able to afford to keep these people in prison for life, that would be fine, but that is not what we do. It is far less expensive to release them and hope that somehow with no money spent, and no treatment, they will be kind enough to not re-offend. It is simply cheaper and less problematic to allow them to rape more children than to bring in the kind of staff that would properly evaluate and treat them for their problems, or keep them until they were not of any threat to the public.

You really only need to spend a little time with some of the victims to know what an evil thing adults using children for sex is. next time you see some grade 7 kids walking down the street, thing of their potential, and then think about the problem some sick child molester may be looking at them too.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 01 December 2005 01:59 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am assuming you don't know anyone who was raped as a child. such a thing scars the child for life

You assume too much and should learn to shut the fuck up. You don't actually know everything.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 December 2005 03:13 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:


I am assuming you don't know anyone who was raped as a child. such a thing scars the child for life.


My wife was raped and beaten repeatedly as a child. And by close family members. To the end of her days, she was an absolute opponent of capital punishment.

Don't presume to speak for the victims of child sexual abuse, friend.

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 01 December 2005 09:49 AM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ichy wrote:

quote:
In most prisons or jails the pedophiles, rapists, and other vermin are housed in seperate quarters, in an effort to keep them alive.

Hmmmm, I wonder how you know this?


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 01 December 2005 10:10 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stupendousgirlie:
Hmmmm, I wonder how you know this?

A lot of people know that, it doesn't make them pedophiles.


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 01 December 2005 10:17 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stupendousgirlie:
Ichy wrote:

Hmmmm, I wonder how you know this?



Because 20 years ago I spent some time in Collins Bay penitentiary. Because I spent 18 months on weekly remands in the Don jail. Because I spent a lot of my life as a have not person, cause I spent some time homeless, and I lived in the world with the victims of the Catholic churches rapists. Because I have seen what damage these people do, I have lived with the misery they create, not simply pontificated about it on a discussion forum. When you have tried to help someone who was raped on a daily or weekly basis from the time they were 7 or 8 and it went on till they got to be too old at 12 or 13 and were discarded like a piece of garbage then get back to me on the subject.

For young men they never ever know who they are, cause often they never had a chance to decide if they were gay or straight, cause some idiot made them into cocksuckers before sex should even have been a big deal in their lives. Do you think forcing children into sex is something the child gets over in an hour? It is always going to be there. It never goes away. And that is what Gary Glitter is again charged with. Ruining the sexual life of yet another child, and we in Canada let it happen over and over and over again. And the progressives ignore what it costs the victim in order to happily pontificate on not being to hard on poor Gary.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
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posted 01 December 2005 10:34 AM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:
When you have tried to help someone who was raped on a daily or weekly basis from the time they were 7 or 8 and it went on till they got to be too old at 12 or 13 and were discarded like a piece of garbage then get back to me on the subject.

You are not the only person in life to have known and cared about and helped people with histories of abuse. YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE.


From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 01 December 2005 10:56 AM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ichy wrote:

quote:
For young men they never ever know who they are, cause often they never had a chance to decide if they were gay or straight, cause some idiot made them into cocksuckers before sex should even have been a big deal in their lives

Some idiot turned them into "cocksuckers" huh? Yeah, sure you help sexual abuse victims....


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 December 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, Ichy has just disclosed to us some things about his past that could give us some insight into why he feels so passionate about this subject. So, while he certainly wasn't very diplomatic about it, let's cut him a bit of slack and not dig in our heels here. He's obviously speaking from a position of pain.

That said, Ichy, the others are right that you're not the only one who has had experiences with jail or sexual abuse, so just as others shouldn't assume you don't know what you're talking about, you shouldn't assume that others might not also have experiences in these areas and might not also feel pain when discussing this issue. Not everyone is as willing to disclose their personal experience, although I appreciate that you've shared yours.

Hopefully we can try to defuse the anger at each other and continue the discussion.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 01 December 2005 11:19 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stupendousgirlie:
Ichy wrote:

Some idiot turned them into "cocksuckers" huh? Yeah, sure you help sexual abuse victims....


As a gay man, I reserve the right to decide what term of heterosexual derision I use to apply to the situation. Often that is how straight male victims of male sexual abuse come to view themselves. It is a horror of their lives, a dirty hidden secret. And it sits inside rotting their lives away. Thanks for letting me explain that.
But could you please talk about that nice Mr Glitter you seem to be trying to defend. Will you be proposing he get the Order of Canada?
I have assumed he bought the 12 year old in Viet Nam, have you no pity for her? How can we solve this if you don't want to execute the perpetrators, Although a life sentence in a Viet Namese jail might be a good sentence except the British will bring the old perv back to England to serve his sentence.

Why isn't Gary Glitter more heinous than Conrad Black? Why are progressives more angry at Lord Black for stealing from his rich friends, than at Mr Glitter for sex with a 12 year old. Progressives on this board might consider the Death sentence for Conrad Black, but never for Gary Glitter. Conrad only stole some money, Glitter and his ilk steal lives. must be some kind of PC thing


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 December 2005 11:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:
But could you please talk about that nice Mr Glitter you seem to be trying to defend. Will you be proposing he get the Order of Canada?

Progressives on this board might consider the Death sentence for Conrad Black, but never for Gary Glitter. Conrad only stole some money, Glitter and his ilk steal lives. must be some kind of PC thing


Listen, you need to knock off this kind of nastiness and baiting. This does not reflect the views of the people in this thread, nor does it make for a productive discussion and you know it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 01 December 2005 11:44 AM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:

As a gay man, I reserve the right to decide what term of heterosexual derision I use to apply to the situation. Often that is how straight male victims of male sexual abuse come to view themselves. It is a horror of their lives, a dirty hidden secret. And it sits inside rotting their lives away. Thanks for letting me explain that.
But could you please talk about that nice Mr Glitter you seem to be trying to defend. Will you be proposing he get the Order of Canada?
I have assumed he bought the 12 year old in Viet Nam, have you no pity for her? How can we solve this if you don't want to execute the perpetrators, Although a life sentence in a Viet Namese jail might be a good sentence except the British will bring the old perv back to England to serve his sentence.

Why isn't Gary Glitter more heinous than Conrad Black? Why are progressives more angry at Lord Black for stealing from his rich friends, than at Mr Glitter for sex with a 12 year old. Progressives on this board might consider the Death sentence for Conrad Black, but never for Gary Glitter. Conrad only stole some money, Glitter and his ilk steal lives. must be some kind of PC thing


You always have an answer for everything Ichy.

I once said you made a racist remark in another thread and you came back with "I can't be racist, I have all these people of different ethnicity in my family".

Make a homophobic remark and whem someone calls you on it yell " I'm can't be a homophobe, I'm gay".

Exclaim in typical right wing fashion that " all the baby rapers should be boiled and skinned and then put to death" and when someone said you should rethink your knee jerk attitude to capital punishment because people like David Milgaard exist you come back with "but I know David Milgaard". Like that explains everything.

I thought it before but I'll say it now.

You sir, are a right wing troll and I banish thee to the pits of the dark side.

*mumble mumble incantation*


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ichy Smith
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posted 01 December 2005 11:59 AM      Profile for Ichy Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Listen, you need to knock off this kind of nastiness and baiting. This does not reflect the views of the people in this thread, nor does it make for a productive discussion and you know it.



You are right. I apologize. I am conservative on some issues, but sometimes I just wish there was a sign somebody might catch up on others. It seems so hopeless, no one seems to be thinking about the little girl, or the problems she is facing, and here in Canada, the victims I know got so very little help. I imagine that that 12 year old girl was/is a prostitude, we have them that young in Canada. And we continually victimize the victims.

I read with horror some of the things said about Conrad Black, all he did was steal a few dollars much of which is only on paper anyway, and I am equally horrified by the lack of anger at Gary Glitter.

Outrage, was what I expected. If you see what I mean.


From: ontario | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 December 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Maritimesea:
I thought it before but I'll say it now.

You sir, are a right wing troll and I banish thee to the pits of the dark side.

*mumble mumble incantation*


KNOCK IT OFF. This is my third post to this thread now, telling people to chill out and cut out personal attacks and escalation. That includes you.

[ 01 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 01 December 2005 06:36 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ichy Smith:


But could you please talk about that nice Mr Glitter you seem to be trying to defend.


Ichy, I respect the pain you are feeling and the validity of your experience. But that last post was out of line. Let me say this as calmly as I can:

No one in this thread is defending Gary Glitter.
You don't have to defend that slimebag to oppose the death penalty, anymore than a person would have to be soft on Naziism because they might, due to their feelings on capital punishment, have opposed the execution of Adolf Eichmann.

The issue is the punishment, not the person being punished.

We all agree that Gary Glitter is a blight on the species. That goes without saying.
For myself, I'd like to see him staked to an anthill for thirty years, with the victims of his crime being allowed to come by now and again and pour honey on sensitive parts of his body.
I, and the others on this thread, just oppose capital punishment. OK?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 07 December 2005 01:08 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's the shock, Ichy. To imagine that someone would do this to a child and travel to a country where the laws are not as strictly enforced in order to further satiate his desires is just... words don't express the disgust very well I'm afraid.

I agree, though. Defending Gary Glitter would be the last thing on my mind.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 January 2006 11:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scout:

Off topic: The song Glitter is most famous for, the sports anthem, isn't played at Leaf games anymore.


Well, maybe home games, but I heard it played in the Swamp last night as the Leaves vanquished the Devils.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 02 January 2006 02:18 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glitter pays off the parents

quote:
THE disgraced rock star Gary Glitter could face prosecution in the United Kingdom for the alleged sexual abuse of two under-age Vietnamese girls, The Scotsman has learned.

It also emerged yesterday that Glitter could receive a lighter sentence if prosecuted in Vietnam after it was confirmed that he had paid the girls' families £1,100 each.

The payments are equivalent to about three times the average annual wage in the south-east Asian country.

[...]

Glitter has been detained in prison on suspicion of engaging in obscene acts with a child - a charge punishable by up to 12 years in prison.

But after receiving the money two weeks ago, the girls' families wrote letters to prosecutors asking for the case against the former star to be dropped.

"If we pay the money for the two families, when this case goes to court, maybe Mr Gary will receive a lighter penalty," Glitter's lawyer, Le Thanh Kinh, said. "After receiving the money, they informed the investigation bureau that they don't want to go to court and they want to drop the case."

Prosecutors in Vietnam said the money would have no bearing on whether the case goes to trial. However, the court could consider it as a form of compensation during sentencing.

Nguyen Van Xung, the deputy provincial chief prosecutor, said: "It will not affect the investigation and the trial process, but the court may consider it as one factor to lessen the sentence."

However, under the terms of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, Glitter could be prosecuted in the UK despite the fact that the alleged offences took place abroad.

The act, which allows for suspected paedophiles to be extradited or prosecuted in Britain for sex crimes committed in other countries, was introduced to curb so-called "sex tourism".

The final decision on whether Glitter is prosecuted in Britain would be taken by the National Crime Squad.

No-one was available for comment there yesterday, but a spokesman for the Home Office told The Scotsman: "Where there's evidence of anyone committing child sex abuse crimes abroad, our police can prosecute under the Sexual Offences Act."

Police completed their investigation into Glitter's case this week and handed over their conclusions to Glitter and his lawyer yesterday.

Prosecutors have said they are likely to charge Glitter with engaging in lewd acts with a child, saying there is not enough evidence to prove the more serious crime of child rape, which carries a maximum penalty of death by firing squad.

"The crime of obscene acts with a child is obvious," Mr Nguyen said. "We hope to have the final decision in less than a month."

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the article:

quote:
Prosecutors in Vietnam said the money would have no bearing on whether the case goes to trial. However, the court could consider it as a form of compensation during sentencing.

I'm more inclined to see it as witness tampering, personally.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 02 January 2006 12:44 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It sure conveys the idea that children in Third World countries can still be viewed as commodities to use and throw away.

Glad the last couple of posts got this back on topic. I was rather dismayed by the advocacy of the death penalty and above all by the use of the epithet "cocksucker" ... as if cocksucking were a BAD thing.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 02 January 2006 02:42 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not shocked to learn this perv has paid the families a sum of money and they dropped charges.

There are countries, too many of them, where WE ALL KNOW children are commodities. Pervs from around the globe go there on TOURS so they can indulge their sickness.

And NICE PEOPLE, who know full well there are sections of major cities in these countries where kids of any age are openly offerred, still go and then prate on about the nice beaches and the wonderful food and all these happy, smiling, friendly people who go out of their way to welcome tourists...

god, I begin to detest all tourists!

Nobody has yet said but somebody probably will that this Perv was probably abused and sexualized at a very young age and so is a "victim" himself... I've heard that so many times I don't even gag any more... I don't consider that any kind of defence...if anything it simply causes me to wonder why the adult can't get in touch with or won't remember how painful and horrible the experience was, and then go out of his way to never inflict that on another kid...

I've interviewed these pervs. One of the things I brought away from those excruciating interviews was that many of them are still puzzled, still trying to find out what it is about the experience that was so wonderful the perpetrator, who claimed to love them, would HURT them so badly...and this puzzlement gets twisted into a need to be the perp to find out what the wonderful thing is... which is a simplification of a complex wormsnest of emotion...

I've worked with ,lived with, known, and loved kids and adults who were terribly scarred. And when I say "loved" I do not mean sexual in any way. I'm not going to go into deeply personal stuff but we have a horrible history of adult-to-child sexual abuse in my family. Some of us have entire years of our childhood lost in the fog of amnesia caused by trauma.

I detest the abusers beyond any ability I may have to describe how I feel.

I fully understand and empathise with the impulse to just wipe the bastards off the face of the earth and one of my constant fears is someone will make a move on one of my grand children and I'll wind up in jail for murder.

I know myself well enough to know if that happened I'd head off to jail LAUGHING.

I am not the nice person I aspire to be, I am not anywhere near as nice as I want to be, I try every day to overcome the fury which burns inside me.

And I oppose the death penalty completely.

Over and above all rational reasons to oppose state sanctioned murder there is the belief that IT WOULDN'T HELP THE VICTIM. Or the victim's family. It would just be another example of misuse of power and jesus, they already know the deep and ugly truth of that.

It wouldn't help me. I don't want "Mr. Ellis" to off the fucker. I want to do it MYSELF.

I like the ant hill, but only if you let me strip off some skin.

Except even that wouldn't help the kid and, much as I would burn for revenge, I'd sooner put my energy to helping the kids. Which is why I press, constantly, for more and better social programmes.

In the threads about the Yonge Street shootings and our examination of what makes a young person angry and alienated enough to pull a trigger we did not approach the subject of sexual abuse... but if we look at the stats...then almost half of every "gang" is comprised of kids who have been sexually abused...

and society has NOT provided help for them.

Is it any wonder they go off the rails?

If I, at 67, after decades of soul searching and of reading, researching, writing, and doing whatever I could perceive would be constructive and helpful have a fear that I would gladly slaughter some perv and go to jail laughing...what kind of a snakes nest is behind the forehead of a seventeen or eighteen year old kid who hasn't yet begun to be able to focus on healing?

Of course we get angry. We are all of us walking bundles of scar tissue and when we learn of another kid who has been sexualized by what we see as a monster those scars itch, then burn until we are FRANTIC. And when we get frantic we cannot think, we can only react.

I tell my kids and my grandkids that some people got a "genetic pool" and we got a septic tank but we can do better, and overcome it. I tell them they have personal responsibility NOT to drown in shit...especially not the shit someone else dumped.

Passion has a way of deforming things, and when we feel passionate about something, we are not who we would prefer to be. Let's , please, each of us, cut everyone else a bit of slack here.

The anger comes from a place of deep pain and from a place of helplessness. Those who care the most know there is no way they can stop this horror and no way they can reach out and help heal all of the tender-fleshed sufferers. And that adds to the pain.

And it is from that pain that my opposition to child pornography grows. I've seen what Project "P" has archived. And to me, those images are seared on my mind, my heart and my soul. To me, those aren't "ciphers" being used and abused. I am cursed with the kind of empathy which sees my grand daughters in the hands of the monsters.

And , frankly, I think it makes me more than just a tad crazy.

But in our exchanges with each other can we please be a little bit kind? Can we remember the passion grows from agony. And can we try to be a bit healing to each other.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 02 January 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:

I'm not shocked to learn this perv has paid the families a sum of money and they dropped charges.

There are countries, too many of them, where WE ALL KNOW children are commodities.



Countries like the United States? Not to be a smart-ass (that's *not* my intenr here) but how is what Michael Jackson did -- paying off the parents/family -- any different?

And yes, I know Michael Jackson was not convicted of any crime. Neither was OJ. (And before anybody gets going on *that*, no, it's *not* a "race thing" with me; it's a *money* thing -- the rich get away with it.)

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 02 March 2006 04:51 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gary Glitter goes on trial in Vietnam on child molestation charges

quote:
(Vung Tau, Vietnam) - The trial of former British rocker Gary Glitter opened Thursday on charges that he molested two underaged Vietnamese girls at his seaside rental home in southern Vietnam.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 02 March 2006 12:11 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Three to seven years isn't enough. And it shows how casually sexualization of a child is treated, how unimportant it is in the eyes of those who make the laws and decide on the sentences.

In Canada when Robert Noyes was finally convicted of multiple counts of sexual interference with students at schools where he had taught, the public disclosure of sexual abuse of kids was recent, and still shocking. Noyes got a very stiff sentence.

That was close to 20 years ago and now the sentences are much lighter because we are "used to" this kind of charge.

Gary Glitter is rich, he can bribe guards, he can have decent food brought into the prison... his time in jail won't be as bad as most peoples' time... and we would probably all be quite glad to crap on his head.

What about the "nice" men who go to Thailand, the Phillipines, Korea, Viet Nam as tourists and amuse themselves repeatedly while there by renting the soft flesh of children? Then come home and continue their respectable middleclass lives, unspat upon, unshat upon?


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
kimmy
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posted 02 March 2006 12:54 PM      Profile for kimmy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Prison would be devastating punishment for Gary Glitter. If the other inmates didn't beat the crap out of him for being a pedophile, they certainly would once they found out he was the guy who sang that annoying sports arena song.
From: Awesometon, Alberta! | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 02 March 2006 10:07 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He's pretty clearly a hopeless case - how many charges has it been since 1999, which of course was only the first one to be discovered? How does a society deal with such a man, a man who will offend again, without losing our own humanity?
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 03 March 2006 12:09 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By locking him up and throwing away the key.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 03 March 2006 12:12 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, that's it - you let him out, he does it again. Clearly, it's out of his control, so it does seem like our only option is to keep him permanently confined.

I wish there was a better solution, but I don't know what else there is for someone like Paul Gadd.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 03 March 2006 12:37 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't have the numbers right at hand here, but the recidivism rate for sexual abusers of children is positively shocking. I'm afraid there IS only two "cures" -- permanent incarceration, or death.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 03 March 2006 12:50 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CBC Radio is reporting that Glitter has been convicted, and sentenced to three years.
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 03 March 2006 01:18 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gary Glitter convicted. Sentenced to 3 years, but...
quote:
Glitter will reportedly be eligible for parole one year from when he was first detained.

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 03 March 2006 09:34 AM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't have the numbers right at hand here, but the recidivism rate for sexual abusers of children is positively shocking. I'm afraid there IS only two "cures" -- permanent incarceration, or death.

Aren't statements like this usually a lightning rod for many babblers? I'll just stand back and watch.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 03 March 2006 09:51 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ok - I'll bite.

I think the more precise way to put that is that we don't know what is going on in the minds of pedophiles (as seldom do they) and we don't know how to treat them, so locking them up is the best we can do at present.

I don't think that the recidivism rate is 100 per cent, actually. I wonder if anyone has the stats?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 03 March 2006 10:11 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't have time to really get into it just now 'cause I'm going out, but I'll post these links which can at least give some idea of relative stats. There are some programmes which can be described less as treatment than helping a pedophile control behavior. How well it works depends on a number of factors, largely the degree to which psychopathy is present.

From the John Howard Society

And this one.

[ 03 March 2006: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 03 March 2006 01:30 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think the more precise way to put that is that we don't know what is going on in the minds of pedophiles (as seldom do they) and we don't know how to treat them, so locking them up is the best we can do at present.

I will bite as well perhaps even a bit deeper

I believe this is very true, I don't know how much research has gone into understanding pedophiles or their experience this is probably true of anyone who comes under the clinical gaze of psychiatry or abnormal psychology. If you start from a position of objectification and pathology it is unlikely you will learn much about the person other than looking to varify your assumptions.

In terms of "treatment" the dominant paradigm is that "treatment" entails the clinicain doing something to the "patient" in order to change their behaviour. This approach is by nature coercive and engenders resistance and conflict it is antithetical to the empathic , non-judmental and caring approach that is involved in building a therapeutic relationship and change. For this reason alone 'treatment" is unlikely to work.

That is not the only reason there are also not a lot of therapists interested in or able work with pedofiles. It is admittedly difficult to form an empathic, caring and non-judgemental relationship with someone who has engaged in horrific actions.

By interesting coicidence there is a relevant article in today's Guardian

quote:
At the heart of all our fears about paedophiles - the monstrous, hypersexual, modern-day bogeymen - is the assumption that they are incurable. The belief informs public policy and police strategy, and fuels parental panic. But in Angus's case, he says, it simply wasn't true.

"It's completely possible, 110% possible, for someone dealing with this issue to sort it out in a way that allows them to have a normal, ordinary, boring life, the same as any other responsible adult. To be safe around kids in any situation that could arise; to be no different from anyone else. That is wholly possible. Of course it's curable. I was sorted a long time ago. And that's what we should be trying to do," he says.



here

From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 March 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't know how much research has gone into understanding pedophiles or their experience this is probably true of anyone who comes under the clinical gaze of psychiatry or abnormal psychology.

There has been a ton of research done on pedophiles, pedophilia and the associated crime of incest. To date there has been no consensus as to what outward characteristics a typical pedophile has, in short, no set profile exists. There is much to show that a pedophile is not likely to change their sexual preference, perhaps they can modify their thinking patterns enough to get by without too much notice. They also have a very high recidivism rate and often receive little to no counseling nor jail time.

Pedophiles are generally not likely to just change their ways. Perhaps they may be able to modify their behaviour through changing the way they think of and view children, and that will not be applicable for the majority. Personally, I would not sacrifice my children (if I had any) to prove the behaviour modification theory.

A pedophile can and does look like anyone. Pedophilia crosses race and age, class and educational level. They use the following as their rationale for abusing children:

1) It's only wrong because society says it's wrong
2) Children are very sexual, they want it
3) They are 'helping' the child to become more aware.
4) Some are just sadistic assholes

I'm not happy to know these things. It's not fun knowing that there are a shot load of mainly men out there who are attracted to children. And it is not fun knowing there is no way to determine who they are.

In terms of treatment, obviously some treatment is better than others. Some have thought about and tried chemical castration. That works only as much as people are willing to monitor the intake of the medication. Incarceration alone most certainly doesn't work. Behaviour modification may work to an extent, but who knows how much a pull sexual attraction has over a superficial understanding of what's right?

Anyways, a good movie to watch about this is The Woodman with Kevin Bacon.

I went through an extremely long and emotionally trying period while doing a Criminology paper on pedophiles. As a person who has been a victim of pedophiles, and as a researcher of this issue, I don't lay out much hope for them in terms in recovery (if that can even be a realistic objective to reach).

Edited to add, I am not at all advocating for detah penalties or anything, and as a victim I have tried very hard to figure out how to deal with them and how I feel about them in a community, etc. I am not for the branding and stigmatizing of an individual (like postering notices everywhere) on an intellectual level, although on a gut level I am. I don't know what a correct mix is between an individual's need and right to get on with their lives, and the right of parents to know who is amongst them. I try hard to be open-minded and not retalitory but that is a hard one.

On a related topic - guys who troll Thailand for child sex - disgusting worthless pigs.

[ 03 March 2006: Message edited by: Stargazer ]


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 03 March 2006 08:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good post.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 03 March 2006 08:32 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the question should honestly be asked should there be these mediated sexual rules to begin with. People like Kinsey, Foucault, and Paglia have asked these questions. Why is it that when children were the freest they had ever been, there was adult/child sexuality. Some places where it still exists are the low lands of New Guinea. The countries with looser laws between adults and children(japan and scandenavia fr instance)tend to have lower instances of sexual assualts on children. Reified taboos do knock common sense sometimes.

People forget that children/adult relations in general are not reciporical. From that is it anywonder that the sexual relations between the 2 are opressive.

Beyond that contraversial point, I do think Glitters anthem should be played at the ACC due to the fact that music transcends the people who make it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 March 2006 08:41 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where do you get the idea "children were the freest"? What does that mean exactly?

I'm not sure where you're going with this and I don't think I like it.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 03 March 2006 08:51 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm relating to hunter-gatherer band societies of course. Good old fasion pre-history. I probably shoudn't have used the word freest anyway.

I think it can be said that in those societies the relations between adults and children were as close to reciporical as had ever been.

Sexuality as such is a social practace as far as I'm concerned. If the social sphere defined by openly uneven relations between adults and children, expect if to show up with in sexuality(whether legal or not)

You have to ask why is it that where the taboo is the strongest(ie social conservative structures like the catholic church) the assaults on children is also strongest, where as places like Japan or further yet more primitive societies, the result is the opposite.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 03 March 2006 08:54 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Pre-history" seems like a ridiculously eurocentric and, dare I say, liberal concept. Who are we to say what counts as History?
From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 03 March 2006 08:59 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
True history is contingent. I suppose I should say HIStory.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 03 March 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly. HIStory. His story. I would suggest we have no fekkin idea what a "hunter gatherer" society was actually like. Most of them did not leave libraries.

I do know that in the pre-contact First Nations society they had a particularly effective way of dealing with the rare person who sexualized kids.

They went out at low low tide and dug a hole in the sand into which they placed a cedar post. To this post they tied the proven offender. Then they let the tide come in and the entire population sat and stood on the beach while the wretch apologized, begged, pleaded, promised...and eventually gurgled and drowned.

There was no recidivism rate and as everyone was on the beach and observed and heard the penalty, there were very few incidences of child sexualization.

We don't live in some idyllic mythologized "primitive" society. We live in the time in which we live. So does Gary Glitter.

If sexualizing of children was truly harmless we wouldn't have the heartbreaking fall out from it that we have. Of COURSE children are curious. My grand daughter Lilli is almost eighteen months old, a tan skinned blonde haired very tiny joy. She is fascinated by fire. We don't let her play with fire and if anyone tries to hand her some fire I guarantee them an ass kicking. Lilli will put anything bright and shiny in her mouth. So we make sure there aren't any bright shiny choke-ables within her grasp.

It's called parenting.

I'm sure there are sicko's out there who might well look at Lilli...or four year old Emily... or five year old Joan... and start to develop a stiffer. Well, best keep it to yourself and stay away from my treasures because I really am fed to the teeth with the excusatory blether and bullshit.

When and if you ever go back in a time machine to a peaceful, idyllic, utopian hunter gatherer time I'd bet my best pair of blue jeans you'd find swift and sudden reaction to the idea of fucking children. Like a slit throat or an opened gut.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 03 March 2006 09:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:
I do know that in the pre-contact First Nations society they had a particularly effective way of dealing with the rare person who sexualized kids.

They went out at low low tide and dug a hole in the sand into which they placed a cedar post. To this post they tied the proven offender. Then they let the tide come in and the entire population sat and stood on the beach while the wretch apologized, begged, pleaded, promised...and eventually gurgled and drowned.

There was no recidivism rate and as everyone was on the beach and observed and heard the penalty, there were very few incidences of child sexualization.


Wow. George W. Bush couldn't have said it any better.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 03 March 2006 10:22 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well Ann, societies are different, my example of the
inhabitants on New Guinea is a contrast, and there are others. Also was this punishment within the band or due to external contact. The studies that deal with the issue as far as I know have figured prominantly in hunter-gatherer societies(which I never classified as idyllic).

And as far as 5 year olds go, I doubt there is any society that condones sex with people that young for obvious phisiological and psychological reasons. However when it comes to the civilized construct of the child it has been done in a completely paternalistic fasion in so much that the possibility of a reciporical relationship between an adult and a child is considered impossible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Accidental Altruist
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posted 03 March 2006 11:22 PM      Profile for Accidental Altruist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:
However when it comes to the civilized construct of the child it has been done in a completely paternalistic fasion in so much that the possibility of a reciporical relationship between an adult and a child is considered impossible.

Reciprocal in which ways exactly?


From: i'm directly under the sun ... ... right .. . . . ... now! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 03 March 2006 11:28 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all I think it important to be clear that to understand pedophiles does not mean to forgive or condone or excuse their actions nor does it dismiss or minimize the pain horror or trauma of their victims. I do believe that our understanding of how their minds operate and how they experience themselves in the world is inadequate. I also believe it is necessary to understand these thing in order to work towards genuine prevention and protection of victims

quote:
There has been a ton of research done on pedophiles, pedophilia and the associated crime of incest.

There is an extensive canon of psychiatric literature on a number of subjects that does not mean it is of value or helps us understand anything any better, most of it is simple minded. As understandable as the rage and desire for revenge may be , I think it is important to move beyond that if we wish to protect children or anyone vulnerable. This is a complex issue that requires a humane response brutal revenge not only endangers those who are innocent but it also does not prevent other brutalities.

quote:
I do know that in the pre-contact First Nations society they had a particularly effective way of dealing with the rare person who sexualized kids.

They went out at low low tide and dug a hole in the sand into which they placed a cedar post. To this post they tied the proven offender. Then they let the tide come in and the entire population sat and stood on the beach while the wretch apologized, begged, pleaded, promised...and eventually gurgled and drowned.


...and so what of those who were sexually abused and traumatized in residential schools and then went on to abuse their own children, would this be your response?

...and what of those abused over years and then groomed to become perpetrators themselves how do we respond?

Do we respond the same way to all sexual violence to respond this way to all manners of violence.

[ 03 March 2006: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 03 March 2006 11:31 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On an emotional and intellectual level obviously. In some cultures children mature faster and overall have better motor skills then children in this society who go through all the pedegogical manufacturing consent. It is in these circumstances that adult/child sex might be more consensual.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 04 March 2006 01:12 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
“Robert” was released from a Canadian penitentiary in 1994. He had a very long history of assaulting little boys. He was fearsome. He embodied the stereotypical image of the ham-fisted monster hiding behind telephone poles, waiting to snatch an unsuspecting child. The research tells us few such offenders lurk in our midst, but Robert (not his real name) was one of those few. The sentencing court had not declared Robert a dangerous offender. Had it done so, he would have remained in prison indefinitely. Soon, however, he was to be released, and everyone who knew him dreaded the day.

An alternative Circle of Support and Accounability

quote:
Once the two had met the threats subsided, and the neighbor left saying he would leave Robert alone so long as he kept his part of the bargain—no more victims. Robert has now been in the community for more than 11 years, with no subsequent offending behavior.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 04 March 2006 04:00 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice story N.R. Kissed, but hardly indicative of the truth. Dismissing research isn't really a good way to make your point either. If you had read up a few more posts you would see that no one is advocating brutality towards offenders. I'm sorry, but I shed no tears for these predators. Not a one. You go on to say, would we have pity for an offender who was molested as a child? Yet another fallacy. Most of these men were NOT molested as children. And what of women N.R. Kissed? Why are they not molesting children at even remotely the rate men are when they have been the majority of the victims? What is your reason for that. Sorry, but research, and a lot of it, has been done, and many of it very good methodologically, as well as thorough.

Vigilante, to me what you are posting is some sort of excuse, or reason, or at least a warped logic that says sex with kids is okay. Well it's not. As Anne said, we are not hunters and gatherers and I sure as hell have no idea what that type of society is like or what attitudes they had towards pedophilia. But I do know this is the year 2006 and pedophilia has wreaked havoc on many, many lives and caused terrible destruction. There is no excuse, nor reason, for a person to take their sexual fantasies out on a child. I cannot believe we are hearing this shit.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Accidental Altruist
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posted 04 March 2006 04:27 PM      Profile for Accidental Altruist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stargazer, I am assuming you are referring to Vigilante's claim that there are circumstances where "adult/child sex might be more consensual."

I'm very dismayed by this statement as well. Didn't know if I should ask for further clarification for fear of drawing out something ugly. I didn't want to assume we're hearing justifications for pedophilia but that's the sense I'm getting. I am hoping that Vigilante might tell us exactly what is being implied and (hopefully) let us know we're way off base in our readings?


From: i'm directly under the sun ... ... right .. . . . ... now! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 04 March 2006 05:03 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure I should perpetuatet the topic seeing as you two don't seem so open but why not.

Star my views on sexuality as such are in no way reified as the dominiant dicourse wants us to believe. There is always context and difference.
I know what harm has been done to children, I do not however divorce it from the greater context of how we treat children in general. I desire to challenge all power and domination and that includes what happens to children in all kinds of levels including sex. What I ultimately want is reciporical relations for all of us, no more ageism. From this social agency where children are more autonomous and have more direct control of their existance, it is not hard to preclude the possibility that adult/child sexuality might happen in a non-opressive way. Again and it can't be said enough, sexuality is a social practice. It reflects the good and bad of what we do to each other. As for it being 2006, yeah ah know, and I also know that the taboos and constructs we've built up around children up to this point have not exactly helped them or us very much.

AA let's just say that pedophilia in my view is in some bad need of deconstruction. If there can be mutual enjoyment between adults and children then who am I to care.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2006 05:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, Vigilante, I'm sorry, but this is getting waaaay too creepy for my liking. I realize that social norms are different in different cultures (and had been different in the past in our own society) and that people have been (and still are in other societies) considered adults at much younger ages than is acceptable in our current, western society. I know that there are countries where people as young as nine are considered ready for marriage and sexual relations if they've hit puberty.

However, this is not one of those societies, and in those societies (both in the past, and where it's currently practiced now), that sort of thing comes at an extremely high price for mostly girls and women, a high number of which certainly do not consent to sexual relations and marriage at such a young age.

It sounds fine to say, let's stop infantalizing our youth, but if that means you're claiming that adults and children should be able to have "mutual enjoyment" of sex together, then you're going to have to find another place to advance that position. It's not happening here, sorry. It's nowhere near a progressive position - there are power relations involved that make the sex non-consensual even if the victim feels pleasure. This isn't the NAMBLA discussion forum. This is a firm line. If you cross it again, you will be gone.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 March 2006 05:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Holy crap. You've posted about this before and been warned about it before, a quick google search tells me.

I'm sorry, Vigilante, but you've been warned, and now you're gone. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in this thread, thinking maybe you were just talking about different ages of consent in different societies, but I think along with that other thread, it's uglier than that.

[ 04 March 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pimji
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posted 04 March 2006 05:41 PM      Profile for Pimji   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm glad this thread got resurrected. This is actually an old story regarding Gary Glitter. He has also been deported from Cambodia a few years back for the exact same crimes.BBC Glitter deported from Cambodia

CBC also used his song as a theme for the promo girl. I emailed them and didn’t get any kind of response. I still wonder if the CBC had to pay a royalty to glitter for using his material?

To the credit of the Bush admin, despite the fact they outright murder children with their war policy, they did actually start prosecuting their own citizens at home for crimes against children in other countries.


From: South of Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 04 March 2006 06:02 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Nice story N.R. Kissed, but hardly indicative of the truth.

It is not just a story and it is true. The outcome research into Circles of Support and Accountability have been so positive that the model is now being adopted and studied internationally. As the article stresses it is not a program just to make offenders feel good the intention is to avoid reoffending especially amongst those designated as high risk.

quote:
Dismissing research isn't really a good way to make your point either.

I have never made a secret of my contempt for psychiatric "research" on these boards and I have gone into endless details and analysis in defence of my critique on other threads I am not going to do that here. There are actually overarching methodological and epistemiological problems in all clinical areas and social sciences in general. I do not claim to be an expert on pedofiles or those who engage in child sexual assault. I do know two things to be true though.

1)The majority of those who abuse children are never caught or identified so research will therefore not be representative.

2)The vast majority of clinical research treats subjects as objects therefor the value of data concerning thoughts, feelings, motivations and behavioural causation is to me somewhat suspect. Even qualitative research should be treated with suspician if a degree of trust does not exist between researcher and subject.

It is also worth noting( as the story in my first link suggested) that not all of those who are sexually attracted towards children act on those impulses. It is certainly worth knowing the differences between those who act and those who don't.

quote:
If you had read up a few more posts you would see that no one is advocating brutality towards offenders.

I was responding specifically to Anne's post which to me looks like advocating brutality.

quote:
I'm sorry, but I shed no tears for these predators. Not a one. You go on to say, would we have pity for an offender who was molested as a child? Yet another fallacy. Most of these men were NOT molested as children.

Firstly I am not suggesting anyone has to feel sorry for or pity for perpetrators especially not survivors of abuse. I also acknowledge it is instinctive,to respond with horror and loathing to people who engage in such brutalities, however, I also believe there is something beyond our instinctive response that needs to be recognized in order to work for prevention.

Secondly if something is rare it does not make it a fallacy. I never said all perpetrators were previously victims, however, it is not uncommon for perpetrators to force victims to participate in the abuse of others. This is a phenomena that is quite well documented. I was asking Anne how do we respond to these people.

Child abuse sexual and others can also be seen at high rates amongst traumatized communities. Abuse carried out by survivors of horrific abuse at residential schools was higher than that of general populations. Do we view that as being the same as abuse in the wider populations?

quote:
And what of women N.R. Kissed? Why are they not molesting children at even remotely the rate men are when they have been the majority of the victims?

I don't have know the answer to that question but it certainly would not be "my reason." What is clear to me is that women survivors of abuse both sexual and physical have a higher likelihood of ending up being subsequently abused male victims (Not all) have a higher likelihood of being abusers. Why is that I do not know ?

I would like to be clear again that I am not defending the actions of abusers. The majority of clients that I see in my work are the survivors of childhood abuse sexual, physical and emotional. I do however, do not believe that people are just born evil and brutal, I believe with better understanding we can prevent someone from engaging in brutalist to begin with and also prevent others from reoffending. So in response to the original statement yes there is more we can do than lock them up for life or kill them.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 04 March 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not suggesting we stake people out at low tide and watch them drown as punishment for sexual abuse of a child. I'm tired of the too often unchallenged Hollywood version of the happy hunter-gatherer society where odd things seem to be tolerated and encouraged. I don't think such societies existed, and if they did I doubt they lasted long. That particular punishment was, as I wrote, pre-contact. And from all accounts at that time the incidence of sexual abuse of a child was very low. There were puberty trainings and rites which had to be met before the child, male or female, was considered to be "ready" for sexual activity, and most of the training revolved around pregnancy, child birth and parenting. Then, when a baby was born, the grandmother and aunties did most of the "rearing", the mother breast fed, the father contributed to the extended family. It was felt parents were too emotionally attached to their kids and "identified" with them too much to remain balanced in most emotionally charged situations.

Whatever-however-that was whenever, and today is today and here and now is here and now.

And yes, Residential School has had a horrifying effect on people and the Residential School Syndrome manifests in ways to make you weep and puke and what has THAT got to do with anything we were discussing here?

Certainly in my grandmother's day sixteen was not unusually young for a girl to be married, and even pregnant. And there aren't many sixteen year olds today who would seem ready for the responsibilities because life is more complex and challenging and we DO keep our kids dependent. My grandfather was putting in a full shift in a coal mine before he was ten years old, surely to god nobody is going to suggest that kind of thing for a child today? (well, except the BC LiEbrals who think a kid should be able to work at age twelve. But we know about the LiEbrals, eh?). My father was working in the coal mines when he was twelve and a half; his dad had to go before a judge and get a special permit but he had no trouble getting it and Matthew followed John into the pits. I have grandsons older than that and the idea of them trudging off to a ten hour shift makes me shudder! What was, was. And aren't we trying to improve life for everyone? Then why start going on at any length let alone great length about some Clan of the Cave Bear idyllic sexual phantasmagorica? They lived less than thirty years for crimeny sake! Half of all pregnancies resulted in death for mother and child. And someone thinks this was a good time?

sheesh!

Or do some people just want to pick nits and quarrel?


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 March 2006 06:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I also am a bit bothered by the tone and attitude taken towards offenders since I last read this thread. I'm no expert on pedophilia (well: I'm no expert on anything), but I'm really nervous about gut reactions that get entire communities on the road to tarring and feathering.

Above all, though, I'm disturbed that otherwise enlightened people would put unquestioning faith in any kind of social-scientific research. "Dismissing" research is not the same thing as questioning it intelligently, and there is something disturbing about the sudden emotional intensity that critics like N.R. Kissed arouse when they are just raising serious questions about social science, which is demonstrably not a science.

Psychiatry and psychology may be useful tools for us, but they are pretty primitive at the moment. Brain science is primitive at the moment, as any serious neuroscientist will cheerfully admit to you. And all those disciplines have been used in the past, the relatively recent past, to do horrible things to people considered deviant, some for serious reasons, some for extremely bad reasons.

It shocks me that these warnings have to be given, actually.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 04 March 2006 06:27 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the record, I thought I had banned Vigilante for the earlier infraction. I mean, I meant to. I must have had too many tabs open and forgot. How creepy. Sorry, all.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 04 March 2006 06:37 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What tone skdadl? I have based my topics on both quantitative and qualitative research and I do not think sociological research is not research at all, so we come from different views. If you read my post, where I specifically said I was a victim of pedophilia, and that I an no advocate for brutal retaliatory methods and that I was just as confused as the next person, then you'd know and understand the position I come from.

I'm not quite sure why your method of science is better than mine, or anyone else's who has based theirs upon qualitative science, and it is science, for what other methods are there to get at what's going on in the mind and not just focusing on synapses, etc.? Much of sociology, as well as native culture, is dug out via qualitative/narrative research. I do not find that any less valid than any other research method.

In regards to this entire thread, I find it odd that you spoke of nothing relating to that creep Vigilante, yet you have come out to speak against me and what I have spoken of. As well, you might notice that N.R. Kissed comes by his conclusions based upon, it looks to me, narrative (qualitative) research, yet you say nothing about that.

You seem to expect me to have some type of ability to divorce myself from my and others, lived experience because it's not 'scientific'. Well I am a human being. Do I have compassion for pedophiles? No. Can I try to understand why it is that they do and are this way? Yes, and as I have pointed out in almost every post, I try very hard to. Yet me, a victim of this very topic, is being painted as unscientific and in some type of attack mode. I beg to differ. I have a huge heart, and a huge ability to not only forgive, but to understand, thus the reason I chose pedophilia as my topic matter.

I have nothing else to say on this subject. I guess I expected something more but thanks anyways.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 March 2006 06:44 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Stargazer, I think that you're misreading me, although explaining myself is way beyond my capabilities right now.

Recognizing that both social science and much of medicine are arts rather than sciences does not devalue them. The most troubling parts of those disciplines have arisen in the past from our deluding ourselves into thinking that we possessed certain scientific knowledge (see lobotomies, all kinds of dangerous drugs, sterilization, etc).

But that doesn't mean they offer no valuable knowledge.

I was not making an attack on your personal testimony, Stargazer, which I would credit and support from now til Doomsday.

But I would do the same for N.R. Kissed.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 04 March 2006 07:23 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks skdadl, as would I.

I think there is an area that has to be open for dialogue, but the pace in which we differ (N.R.Kissed seems to have no faith in any research) is a fairly big one. I believe what he says of his experiences with these men, but the bottom line is, he isn't these men, and he really can't understand what they think or feel, any better than I or the thousands of other people who have tried.

Honest, watch The Woodsman with Kevin Bacon. It is by far the best attempt to get at what it means to be a man convicted and guilty of molesting children and what he goes through to try to change. The movie is reality plus, and I think it is a fair movie. If you do watch it, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

*Hearts* to you skdadl, for I know you meant no harm.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 March 2006 07:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*Hearts* and hugs and kisses to you, Star.

And thank you for coming back.

I just think a lot about our brains is all. I worry about them. I find so few answers to my worries that I can believe in.

And I feel for the people who are out there in no-man's land. I really do. I have no idea what to do about this, except I think that we have to measure our reactions of shock and anger against the sensations of the void that come to all of us.

Human consciousness is a great mystery, sometimes glorious, but often ... not.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 05 March 2006 01:17 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I think there is an area that has to be open for dialogue, but the pace in which we differ (N.R.Kissed seems to have no faith in any research) is a fairly big one. I believe what he says of his experiences with these men, but the bottom line is, he isn't these men, and he really can't understand what they think or feel, any better than I or the thousands of other people who have tried.

I am not dismissing all research nor am I saying only qualitative research is valid. I am questioning some of the conclusions that certain types of research arrive at and the methodology used and the manner in which flawed research can still lead to the establishment of orthodox beliefs. It is on the basis of much flawed clinical research that I am raising questions. I still believe there is much to be understood and previous research always needs to be reviewed.

In terms of "treatment" I firmly believe that anything that is forced is bound to fail. So it would be accurate to say that pedofiles fail to respond to forced treatment and that could lead to a conclusion that life-time incarceration or death might seem the only answer.

Let me also be clear that I do not work with or at least I have yet to work with a perpatrator(even more specifically I have never worked with an acknowledged perpetrator). I do work with victims of all manners of childhood trauma, including many survivors of childhood sexual abuse. So I am no way minimizing the pain, horror ad devastation that they experienced. My work also involves validating and acknowledging rage that survivors suppress and frequently turn inward. I never encourage or expect survivors to forgive or even understand their perpetrator(s)because honouring and validating their anger is more important. So my own experience is with the victims of trauma. My clients are both male and female, although predominantly female. One of the reasons that I get upset when I see the term "untreatable" is because that term has frequently been given to those who have experienced trauma and recieved labels such as Borderline Personality Disorder. It is my work with such people labelled as "untreatable" that has led me to question such labels. Clinians have historically dismissed and ignored trauma histories.

I also know that men are often deeply uncomfortable sometimes almost incapable of speaking of their own histories of trauma. On that basis I would think the number of abusers with trauma histories is likely an underestimation.

My reflections on sexual abusers actually originally came out of an instinctual revulsion to working with them and an exploration of those feelings and reflecting on how I would work with such a client. This is an ongoing process. I have worked with clients that have histories of being physically abusive and that still makes me uncomfortable to be honest. My reflections have also been based on spiritual refections of compassion not that I make any great claims for myself but I do believe I need to find compassion somehow for those who have engaged in horrific acts.

I still believe though that perpetrators are responsible for their actions and need to take responsibilty. I repeat that I am not making excuses.

I also believe that Gary Glitter(finally back on topic)deserves to be incarcerated he demonstrates clearly that he does not take responsibility for or feel remorse for his actions and that makes him dangerous.

I also think what Vigilante was saying is beyond creepy, I was getting that sense at the same time hoping he wasn't going there. That sort of non-sense is dangerous and is used by people like Glitter to rationalize their behaviour.

If we wish to speak of culture I think it's important to acknowledge the creepy and disgusting manner in which children are sexualized and commodified in popular culture.

[ 05 March 2006: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 05 March 2006 01:28 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And yes, Residential School has had a horrifying effect on people and the Residential School Syndrome manifests in ways to make you weep and puke and what has THAT got to do with anything we were discussing here?

I raised this point because there are some (not you or anyone else on this thread) who would lump all those who abuse children together disregarding any context.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 05 March 2006 05:49 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Earlier in the thread someone asked the very valid question why, when females are by far more often the victims of sexual abuse, females are not the main perpetrators of it, if, indeed, the abused become the abusers one would think women would be far more apt to be predators.

I suspect part of the reason would be the lack of physical equipment. And I would suspect another part of the reason would be there isn't the centuries of "art" depicting women being sexual with very young males, whereas we're drowning in shit which shows men with girls. I think of my own absolute disgust with a CBC mini series about the "home" children and how one of the characters was an orphan girl of perhaps eleven who was placed with a family headed by the actor RH Thomson. His wife was "sickly" and couldnt' care for the kids, and this immigrant girl had to take over as caregiver. And at the end of the mini series the girl has been with the family a couple of years, the sickly wife dies, and the character played by RH Thomson then MARRIES this girl, who couldn't have been more than thirteen or fourteen...I was absolutely horrified!

And I wonder, too, about the dynamic of "forgiveness". And I have seen women "forgive" adult men who had abused them when they were kids, and then not only "forgive" but actually do it in such a way they as good as made their own kids available to the abuser... I suspect the ratio of abused-become-abusers is the same, but women do it in different and less quickly identifiable ways.

We don't "know" much of anything, really, about pedophiles, and we're a long way away from overcoming our squemishness about the subject. I try very hard to attempt to stay open minded and I try to understand and I am certainly very aware of the Residential School syndrome and the devastating impact it has every day on every reserve in the country. And I am repeatedly disappointed in my own reaction because I know, the way I know tomorrow will come, that if anyone should be so unwise as to try anything creepy with any of my grandchildren I will explode and "violent" won't even begin to describe my behaviour.

I know from where that violence will come. It will come from the hole which has wiped several years from my memory. I do not have to know the particulars to know that kind of amnesia is the result of repeated trauma, usually of the worst kind. I have absolutely no interest in swimming in "pain pools" to try to "get in touch with" any of it. Sufficient for me to recognize the black hole is there, and why.

And I have let some of whom I feel suspicion know that I am not sane when it comes to protecting my treasures.

And to make them as safe as I can, I try hard to research, to stay in touch with people who know more about just about anything you'd care to name than I do, and I try, very hard, to teach the little ones how to stay safe in a world which sometimes seems pretty fucking ugly.

But they walked over to visit me today, with their dad, and they rode their birthday bikes back. "It's a real long walk, Grandma."... tomorrow dad will walk back while they ride their bikes here. They're much safer on the bikes in the trailer park than over in "the valley" but I do wish you had all been able to see the faces as they set off for the first time on the big adventure of a bike ride all the way home! One is four, the other five. And they were off to cycle the known world. Safe with dad. "We'll be real real careful, Grandma. I promise." (they've just learned what a promise is so everything gets promised right now.)

And I look at them and I absolutely can not, no matter how hard I try, understand the sort of mind set that would find anything at all sexually enticing in such innocence. And yet I know many do.

And until we have a better alternative, I'm all for locking them away from the tender fleshed. Feed them, give them TV to watch, a library to read, medical care, treat them decently but for the sake of the kids, don't let them out again.

Sorry, that's the best I can manage for them.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 05 March 2006 07:46 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anne, I have long admired the writing work that you have accomplished over the years. And I cannot help but sense that the fuel for much of your creativity and imagination and originality comes from that black hole in your memory. So much of what you say and how you say resonates with me. On the street where I grew up, a whole family of girls were sexually abused by their father, his brother and the parish priest. When, years later, I met one of the younger sisters and she told me what happened to them, I knew that I knew that something evil was happening in the basement of that house. I played with the daughters, the oldest was one year ahead of me in school. Even as a child, I found the dad repulsive and never, never went into the cellar. But then, I was raised by a half-crazy mother who was that way because she had been abused as a child and she installed in me a radar or antenna that went on alert whenever I felt the approach of this kind of evil and she gave me the permission to trust my instincts.

About why it appears that a lesser number of female survivors of childhood abuse become themselves abusers, I would offer the opinion that some of it has to do with socialization. It seems "easier" for girls to grow up into female victims, and boys to become male agressors, what with all the institutions that implicitely or explicitely support such behaviours.


From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 05 March 2006 08:18 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Typically, women internalize hurt and pain, and take it out on themselves - anorexia, self-mutilation, drug-overdoses. men typically take it out on others - abuse, aggression etc. I think it does have to do with socialization. Women are taught to internalize, that anger is not becoming. men are taught that anger/aggressiveness is a trait to be admired.

I agree that some women may not get caught but I do not agree that women offend children at even remotely the levels men do. In my entire live I have been the victim of so many un asked for sexual abuses and assaults and not one, not one of them, came from a woman. All of them came from men, from the first idiot flasher with candy when I was 5 up to the rape in May 2004. Yes this is personal stuff and I realize that sometimes this is frowned upon or perhaps I seem to be attempting to get pity. I assure you this is not the case. I believe that men, even men who do not abuse but participate in a culture that condones abuse, must be aware of what those actions can do do a child, or a woman.

It's the same way I feel about violent sex scenes in movies. The way rape is generally portrayed in movies is only up to the point where we can see, or know, that real harm will come to this person. We are then cut to the next day. I had a huge argument with a male friend of mine, who thought it was sick that a particular movie I had rented showed such extreme pain and degradation being done to a female victim. He could not understand why that was there, and he was extremely uncomfortable.

I was pleased that he was uncomfortable, and asked him why that was so. In point of fact, he didn't want to know the actual brutality done. He was happier with the Hollywood version of rape. Well too bad. He watched a woman being so grossly victimized and I was glad that he saw it. Glad he saw the sheer brutality and glad he saw what a horrific and devastating effect that rape has on women in real lived lives. It sure changed his mind regarding just how rape effects women (and men who are raped). I think men need to know just what the victim feels like. I am not a defender of making rape pretty for those with sensitive eyes.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 05 March 2006 10:05 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh God, sex in film and TV. I wrote a script for CBC TV drama, "A Matter Of Choice" and had hell's own time getting the script through the levels of (invariably male) ditherbabble.

So we're sitting in a very nice restaurant, with the actor we desperately hoped would agree to take the lead role and her agent suggested there was a huge flaw in the script because I had made no attempt at all to show anything from his point of view, and had given no hint as to "why" he ... and I somewhat brusquely said I didn't care what his motivation was, I was sick and tired of hearing the rapists mother blamed for toilet training him too early.

Dead silence. I thought oh fuck, now you've done it, all these nice city people are going to be "shocked and appalled".

And that totally gorgeous actor, Roberta Maxwell, grinned from ear to ear, leaned over, patted my arm and said and I quote, "Right on, Sister".

Then we had to fight like fury to ensure that the rape scene NOT be made milder, nicer, more acceptable.

And if that wasn't enough, we had to fight to keep the scene where she is in the bathtub, scouring her skin. Maxwell nearly scraped holes in her own flesh doing that one.

Sometimes I would wonder if all the fighting was worth it. Wouldn't it be easier to just... but I had a great producer, a genius director, and a true talent for a lead actor and we made it and I'm still past proud and all the way to egotistical about what we managed to get on screen and into living rooms.

Nothing pretty. Nothing romantic or erotic or titillating or...

I've seen rape survivors immediately after they were able to escape. Women whose faces will never again be the same, women for whom plastic surgeons will do the best they can but ...

and then people wonder why I go absolutely snakeshit when someone starts talking about the erotic wonderfulness of porn.

Well, sometimes it just seems a tad "much", you know? Just a tad "much".

I appreciate very much the support I received in response to my previous post. Ever have the feeling if they took away our scars we'd have little left to hold us upright?

An otherwise very nice male reporter, assigned to do an interview, asked me, in all seriousness, what it was had made me such a committed feminist. Is there, he asked, one seminal experience.

And all I got out of my mouth was "seminal?", and then I was out to lunch, howling with laughter, unable to do anything except expose my coal town roots.


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
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posted 06 March 2006 01:23 AM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you for the reference, Anne. Years ago, I when that production became available on VHS, I used it a lot to launch discussions about acquaintance rape. Recently I looked for it in the NFB catalogue and I was furious not to see it there (because of course, it was made by the CBC!). I particularly remember Roberta Maxwell - memorable for her role as Jack's mother in Brokeback Mountain and Lucille Poncelet in Dead Man Walking. She did justice to your script. I still remember the bath scene where she scours her body with a nail brush - it conveyed the need to remove every surface that came in contact with the rapist's malevolent touch.
quote:
posted by anne cameron: ... I wrote a script for CBC TV drama, "A Matter Of Choice" ... And that totally gorgeous actor, Roberta Maxwell, grinned from ear to ear, leaned over, patted my arm and said and I quote, "Right on, Sister".

Then we had to fight like fury to ensure that the rape scene NOT be made milder, nicer, more acceptable.



From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged

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