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Author Topic: Abortion issues in popular culture
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 July 2004 02:19 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since the Degrassi thread is now mostly about Degrassi, I thought I'd start another thread to talk about how the right to choose is typically treated in books/songs/movies.

As I started this thread, Brick came on my Launch radio station:

quote:
They call her name at 7:30
I pace around the parking lot
Then I walk down to buy her flowers
And sell some gifts that I got
Can't you see
It's not me you're dying for
Now she's feeling more alone
Than she ever has before

The rest of the song.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Loony Bin
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posted 21 July 2004 02:31 PM      Profile for Loony Bin   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that read "If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant".

There seems to be a lot of anti-abortion propaganda here in Alberta. Never noticed it so much when I was living in Toronto.

It really makes my blood boil.


From: solitary confinement | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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Babbler # 117

posted 21 July 2004 02:35 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
by Sheryl Crow

Hard To Make A Stand song lyrics"

Old James Dean Monroe
Hands out flowers at the Shop-N-Go
Hopes for money but all he gets is fear
And the wind blows up his coat
And this he scribbles on a perfume note
"If I'm not here, then you're not here"
And he says, "Call me Miscreation,
I'm a walking celebration"

[Chorus]
And it's hard to make a stand
Hard to make a stand
Hard to make a stand
Hard to make a stand

My friend, o lawdy,
Went to take care of her own body,
And she got shot down in the road
She looked up before she went,
Said, "This isn't really what I meant"
And the daily news said,"Two with one stone"
And I say, "Hey there, Miscreation,
Bring a flower, time is wasting"

[Chorus]

We got loud guitars and big suspicions,
Great big guns and small ambitions,
And we still argue over who is God
And I say, "Hey there Miscreation,
we all need a revelation"


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
neeuqdrazil
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Babbler # 4643

posted 21 July 2004 02:47 PM      Profile for neeuqdrazil   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ani DiFranco
lost woman song
-for lucille clifton

i opened a bank account
when i was nine years old
i closed it when i was eighteen
i gave them every penny that i'd saved
and they gave my blood
and my urine
a number
now i'm sitting in this waiting room
playing with the toys
and i am here to exercise
my freedom of choice
i passed their handheld signs
went through their picket lines
they gathered when they saw me coming
they shouted when they saw me cross
i said why don't you go home
just leave me alone
i'm just another woman lost
you are like fish in the water
who don't know that they are wet
as far as i can tell
the world isn't perfect yet
his bored eyes were obscene
on his denim thighs a magazine
i wish he'd never come here with me
in fact i wish he'd never come near me
i wish his shoulder
wasn't touching mine
i am growing older
waiting in this line
some of life's best lessons
are learned at the worst times
under the fierce fluorescent
she offered her hand for me to hold
she offered stability and calm
and i was crushing her palm
through the pinch pull wincing
my smile unconvincing
on that sterile battlefield that sees
only casualties
never heroes
my heart hit absolute zero
lucille, your voice still sounds in me
mine was a relatively easy tragedy
now the profile of our country
looks a little less hard nosed
but that picket line persisted
and that clinic's since been closed
they keep pounding their fists on reality
hoping it will break
but i don't think there's a one of them
leads a life free of mistake


From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Primate1
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posted 21 July 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ani DiFranco is pretty overtly pro-choice.

And I remember seeing a Pearl Jam performance where Eddie Vedder scrawled "pro-choice" on his arm.

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]


From: Newfoundland | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Primate1
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posted 21 July 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
As I started this thread, Brick came on my Launch radio station

I had to interpret those lyrics on my grade 11 Literature final exam. Had no idea it was about abortion until then.


From: Newfoundland | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 22 July 2004 02:21 AM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lizard Breath:
I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that read "If it's not a baby, you're not pregnant".

There seems to be a lot of anti-abortion propaganda here in Alberta. Never noticed it so much when I was living in Toronto.

It really makes my blood boil.



With the whole anti-gay marriage thing there, i was starting to notice it seems to be a province with conservative beliefs.

From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 22 July 2004 02:28 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is troublesome that all it takes to get your blood boiling is a bumper sticker that reflects alternative values. It is also not propaganda, it is true.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 22 July 2004 04:01 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hailey

Who are you trying to convince? Do you think your glib one-liners are going to convert anyone on this progressive website to your view? Do you expect a chorus of posts after you saying "Wow, I never thought of it that way. Screw women's rights, I'm a social conservative now! Thanks for your penetrating analysis."

If, on the other hand, you are just here to start fights, why not save us some time, say that now, and we can all ignore you.

Finally, do you accept the premise that you should not be allowed to control what is done with your own uterus? If so, are any of your other body parts up for grabs? I'm willing to tell you what you are and aren't allowed to do with any of the following:

-gall bladder
-small intestine
-knee (left only)
-lungs
-frontal lobe of the brain

Don't worry, I'm both a man AND a Christian, so I must know better than you, right?


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 22 July 2004 04:06 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear JohnUnderscoreD,

Oh, if you weren't already married ...


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 22 July 2004 04:16 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Who are you trying to convince?.... If, on the other hand, you are just here to start fights, why not save us some time, say that now, and we can all ignore you. Finally, do you accept the premise that you should not be allowed to control what is done with your own uterus?Don't worry, I'm both a man AND a Christian, so I must know better than you, right?

I think that most people approach a discussion about abortion with an already formed view so it would be unrealistic to think that most people would change their position on abortion. I don't necessarily think that anyone will change their mind but I also think that part of being a good decent person is speaking up in the face of something you regard as morally evil. Even if nobody changes their mind at least you have not been a silent observer to a wrong.

I am very outspoken in my views but my intention isn't to "pick fights", insult, call people dumb etc.

No, I do not believe that a mother has exclusive right over a womb that is inclusive of a new life. I believe that the rights of both must be considered and that the baby must be protected.

I don't believe that by virtue of your being male or Christian (and I do *not* accept that you are a christian, btw) that you are automatically correct. Nor am I required to submit to you. Even if one were to support biblical submission it is within parental or marital relationships not random male strangers.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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Babbler # 5620

posted 22 July 2004 05:47 AM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't necessarily think that anyone will change their mind but I also think that part of being a good decent person is speaking up in the face of something you regard as morally evil. Even if nobody changes their mind at least you have not been a silent observer to a wrong.

This is actually a good point. I would like to think I am a good, decent person. Therefore, I will speak up in the face of something I regard as morally evil. I find it repugnant that pro-life activists prey on the fragile emotional state of girls and women who are considering abortions. I find it offensive that people like you try to make villains out of victims. I find it downright evil that some people manipulate guilt, confusion, and fear to prevent women from accessing their right to safe medical treatment. I find it hypocritical that to be pro-life, one must care only about the 9 months before conception, and not give a shit about how the baby lives afterwards.

quote:
I do *not* accept that you are a christian, btw

Forgive me, Sister Hailey, for I have sinned. It has been some time since my last confession. In that time, I have transgressed against the 11th Commandment, "Honour Thy Patriarchy". How many Hail Mary's shall I say to atone?

Seriously, if you're that concerned, feel free to report me to the Pope. Once he gets around to excommunicating me, I'll stop calling myself a Christian.

PS I apologize to you all for the slight thread drift. I have no desire to turn this thread into a long-running flame war. Besides, I'm running out of snappy one liners.

PPS

quote:
Dear JohnUnderscoreD,
Oh, if you weren't already married ...

You had your chance!

[ 22 July 2004: Message edited by: John_D ]


From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 22 July 2004 09:44 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Therefore, I will speak up in the face of something I regard as morally evil. I find it repugnant that pro-life activists prey on the fragile emotional state of girls and women who are considering abortions. I find it offensive that people like you try to make villains out of victims. I find it downright evil that some people manipulate guilt, confusion, and fear to prevent women from accessing their right to safe medical treatment. I find it hypocritical that to be pro-life, one must care only about the 9 months before conception, and not give a shit about how the baby lives afterwards.

Standing ovation!

(Hey, audra, I know you saw him first and all, but you're engaged. I, mind, am married. Och, the moral quandaries. )

Hailey, it is one thing for you to state or argue your position on abortion. It is quite another to deny someone else's religious self-identification. You going to refuse to accept that I am a Christian too?

[ 22 July 2004: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gentlebreeze
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Babbler # 4562

posted 22 July 2004 10:29 AM      Profile for Gentlebreeze     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I recall an interview with Ben Folds about the subject matter of "Brick". He was very careful to emphasize that it was not an anti pro-choice song, but rather a stictly personal testimony. He explained that he and his girlfriend had been "forced" to have an abortion, and that while it was painful (as the song clearly reflects) he did not regret the choice. Folds seemed concerned that the song might be misused by pro-lifers, and wanted to clarify the matter (at least it appeared that way to me).
From: Thornhill | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
beibhnn
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Babbler # 3178

posted 22 July 2004 10:50 AM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting. I always thought of it as a pro-choice song and never considered another interpretation until now.

But it always makes me a little teary because it reminds me of a very good friend.


From: in exile | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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Babbler # 1873

posted 22 July 2004 11:18 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Hailey, it is one thing for you to state or argue your position on abortion. It is quite another to deny someone else's religious self-identification.

Outreageous indeed. But I suppose if you're going to climb the slippery slope of deciding what others can do with their bodies, you might as well decide what religion others are, or are not, as well. Deciding what is "morally correct" and then unilaterally imposing it on others is the basis of much evil in this world.

Funny how those things work - those who believe they are the most righteous, are actually the least.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 22 July 2004 11:30 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is actually a good point. I would like to think . I find it repugnant that pro-life activists prey on the fragile emotional state of girls and women who are considering abortions. I find it offensive that people like you try to make villains out of victims. I find it downright evil that some people manipulate guilt, confusion, and fear to prevent women from accessing their right to safe medical treatment. I find it hypocritical that to be pro-life, one must care only about the 9 months before conception, and not give a shit about how the baby lives afterwards.


I don't believe that presenting information that is an alternative to prochoice rhetoric is manipulating or confusing. I am not sure why you'd want information to be given from only your perspective and then say you are prochoice.

As well, I want to say that my own life would reflect that I care for children conceived under difficult situations and their mothers long after they are born. Anyone who walks away shortly after the birth is plain wring.

quote:
Seriously, if you're that concerned, feel free to report me to the Pope. Once he gets around to excommunicating me, I'll stop calling myself a Christian.

The Pope has clearly spoken out about the compatability of being catholic and prochoice. Please print out your post, give it to the priest, and ask him whether or not you are eligible to receive the Host. You are not.

quote:
Hailey, it is one thing for you to state or argue your position on abortion. It is quite another to deny someone else's religious self-identification. You going to refuse to accept that I am a Christian too?

If you are prochoice you are not a christian.

quote:
Deciding what is "morally correct" and then unilaterally imposing it on others is the basis of much evil in this world.
I am also apt to impose on people sober driving, not raping women, not assaulting others etc.

From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 July 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you are prochoice you are not a christian.

I am a Presbyterian. We don't care what the Pope says. That's why we're here, actually.

We also don't think it's Christian to tell other Christians that they aren't Christians if they aren't just like us.

btw, why don't you capitalize Christian?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 July 2004 11:47 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you are prochoice you are not a christian.

If you sit in spiritual judgement of your fellow human beings, are you a Christian?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beibhnn
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Babbler # 3178

posted 22 July 2004 11:47 AM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Monty Python thinks Hailey is right:

quote:

Dad: There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons and then,
There are those that follow Mohammud, BUT
I've never been one of them.
I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics
Is they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on,
You're a Catholic the moment Dad came.
Because...

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Children: Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Child: Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Children: Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.

Mum: Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Men: Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
Women: If a sperm is wasted,
Children: God gets quite irate.

Priest: Every sperm is wanted,
Bride & Groom: Every sperm is good,
Nannies: Every sperm is needed,
Cardinal: In your neighborhood.

Children: Every sperm is useful,
Every sperm is fine,
Funeral: God needs everybody's,
Mourner1: Mine!
Mourner2: And mine!
Corpse: And mine!

Nun: Let the Pagan spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill, and plain,
Statues: God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Everyone: Every sperm is wanted,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighborhood.
Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.



From: in exile | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 22 July 2004 11:49 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You mean like this, Michelle?

quote:
Matthew 7

Judging Others

1Don't condemn others, and God won't condemn you. 2God will be as hard on you as you are on others! He will treat you exactly as you treat them.
3You can see the speck in your friend's eye, but you don't notice the log in your own eye. 4How can you say, "My friend, let me take the speck out of your eye," when you don't see the log in your own eye? 5You're nothing but show-offs! First, take the log out of your own eye. Then you can see how to take the speck out of your friend's eye.



From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 22 July 2004 11:51 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 22 July 2004 03:23 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
If you are prochoice you are not a christian.

I'm guessing you mean Catholic. And I'm sure there are quite a few Catholics who are pro-choice, they just keep quite about it. The Pope is getting too old to come to homes and personally tell people they're excommunicated.

Heh. Not to offend anyone that is overly religious here on the board, but I can attest to the fact that in the small town I came from at least, Church was, for a sizeable majority, a place to go so that your neighbours would see you there and not be able to gossip that you weren't "living in sin". The actual underlying beliefs and morals took a backseat for many to what Mr. Smith's wife was wearing.

Actually, even that has slipped away quite a bit, more of a thing to do 20 or 30 years ago. The Church still has a portion of older folk as listed above, but most youngin's don't even go. Nowadays more and more could care less and less what their neighbours think about them. As well they shouldn't.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 22 July 2004 03:32 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please print out your post, give it to the priest, and ask him whether or not you are eligible to receive the Host. You are not.

What if I support the sexual assault of children? Am I off the bread for that too?

Suppose I approved of the exploitation of women? Will I get the stinkeye from the padre for that?

Suppose I'm so bigoted that I believe a tenth of the population to be second-class citizens... is there any possibility of me still calling myself a Christian at that point? Or would the three of these together condemn my immortal soul?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 22 July 2004 03:42 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please print out your post, give it to the priest, and ask him whether or not you are eligible to receive the Host. You are not.

But you might find some Protestants a little more open-minded.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
andrean
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posted 22 July 2004 04:27 PM      Profile for andrean     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is what Consolidated says about it, in a song called "Butyric Acid".

quote:

I want to talk about media distortion,
ad campaign telling lies about abortion
Standing there, call yourself a good Christian,
break your fucking sign because you're causing me friction
Ignorant group Operation Rescue,
if you treat women, then they might even kill you
Randall Terry says they're soldiers of god
if you ask me, I'd say they're smoking much prod
A little advice for the medical students,
(they're) teaching cowardice not medical prudence
Lobbying pressure from the A.M.A. cracker,
(you) don't treat women and you call yourself a doctor
Standing in line, fucking slime with no sense,
two can play at that, start clinic defense,
yelling over me, showing patients no respect,
break for the lane get (an) elbow in your neck

If you don't want a Nazi in your house, don't let one,
(you) Don't know a fundamentalist 'til you've met one
If you've memorized your civil rights, don't forget one,
If you don't want an abortion, don't get one

Marching with your cross and your dead fetus picture,
don't let me see you or I'll jam it up your sphincter
You're lucky that I find violence so heinous,
but my wife and her friends'll put a foot in your anus
Confused sad women still apologizing,
sad fucking bible you're still memorizing,
had to make a choice between god and your sister,
you imitate your oppressor so you dissed her
Even though you told me you had the procedure
just 'cause you're rich and you're white, that freed you,
from the consequence of a child out of wedlock
from the family shame at the congregation potluck
Crazy pregnant woman citing her religion,
the baby's going to die without caesarian section
I won't support scientific intervention
give her the freedom to deal with her actions

if you don't want a Nazi ...

RU486, yes I am sir,
Anything to empower women, that's for damn sure
Know what it means when they're bombing all the clinics,
who's going to say get off the fence to the cynics
Harassing g.y.n. with a death threat,
say that you're doing god's work, well, yeah but
Respect women and give her some room,
believe in her rights, stay out of her womb
If you want to see women stop termination,
give her a future and a real education
Do you think women want to kill their own babies?
If you've got your own twisted baggage, then maybe

if you don't want a Nazi ...


[ 22 July 2004: Message edited by: andrean ]


From: etobicoke-lakeshore | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
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posted 22 July 2004 05:25 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Digable Planets "Femme Fetal"
it was 8:49 on a beautiful 9th day of july
there was not a cloud to speak of so the orange sun hung lonely in the sky
i was laying prone in my catbeat home
listening to fine nappy jackie and his jazzcat's horn
sliding in a tape of bird on verve when suddenly rang my phone
hello butterfly a voice said
slip on some duds comb out your fro and slide on down to my pad
the vibe here is very pleasant and i truly request your presence
a problem of great magnitude has arose
and as we speak it grows
damn, what could it be i thought
a juice i bought and rolled on down to her pad
seeing bros i know slapping fives i arrived and pressed G-5
and there was nikki
lookin some kind of sad with tears fallin from her eyes
she sat me down
and dug my frown and began to run it down
"you remember my boyfriend sid that fly kid who i love well our love was often a verb and spontaneity has brought a third
but due to our youth and economic state we wish to terminate
about this we don't feel great, but baby that's how it is
but the feds have dissed me
they ignore and dismiss
and the pro-lifers harrass me outside the clinic
and call me a murderer, now that's hate
so needless to say we're in a mental state of debate"
hey beautiful bird i said digging her somber mood
the fascists are some heavy dudes
they don't really give a damn about life
they just don't want a woman to
control her body or have the right to choose
but baby that ain't nothin
they just want a male finger on the button
because if you say war they will send them to die by the score
aborting mission should be your volition
but if souter and thomas have their way
you'll be standing in line unable to get welfare while they're out
hunting and fishing
it has always been around it will always have a niche
but they'll make it a privelege not a right
accessible only to the rich
pro-lifers should dig themselves
cause life doesn't stop after birth
and to a child borne to the unprepared
it might even just get worse
supporters of the h-bomb and fire bombing clinic
what type of shit is that? orwellian in fact
if roe v wade was overturned would not the desire remain intact
leaving young girls to risk their healths
and doctors to botch and watch as they kill themselves
i don't want to sound macabre
but hey, isn't it my job
to lay it on the masses and get them off their asses
to fight against these fascists
so whatever you decide make that move with pride
sid will be there
and so will i
an insect til i die
rhythms and sounds
spinning around
confrontations
across the nation
your block
my block
dreadlocks
what a shock
land of the free - but not
me

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 22 July 2004 08:41 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you sit in spiritual judgement of your fellow human beings, are you a Christian?

Yes, I am Michelle.

quote:
I'm guessing you mean Catholic. And I'm sure there are quite a few Catholics who are pro-choice, they just keep quite about it. The Pope is getting too old to come to homes and personally tell people they're excommunicated.

No, I mean Christian. The balance of your post is about catholicism so I'll focus on that.

There is no such thing, however, according to the RCC as a prochoice Catholic. Any examples that you give are based on persons self-reports. The very leader of their church would not acknowledge them as Catholics. The Pope isn't going to tell them in person but that doesn't change the facts.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 July 2004 08:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That "you" was a rhetorical "you", btw.

As in, "If one sits in judgement on their fellow human beings, is one a Christian?"


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 22 July 2004 09:25 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

No, I mean Christian. The balance of your post is about catholicism so I'll focus on that.


Ok.

You might want to check the other posts dealing with some of the other major branches of Christianity, I believe both Protestant and Presbyterian were mentioned; I'm not a practising member of the United Church, but I was (kinda, sorta, at Christmas ) raised as one, and I don't believe "we" send you to hell for it either, but I could be wrong.

Then again, if you're a devout Catholic you might want to ignore those other major branches, they and their ideas don't generally sit well with many devout Catholics worldviews

quote:

There is no such thing, however, according to the RCC as a prochoice Catholic. Any examples that you give are based on persons self-reports. The very leader of their church would not acknowledge them as Catholics. The Pope isn't going to tell them in person but that doesn't change the facts.

No, I agree. Nor does it change the fact that if push came to shove, there are more than a handful of Catholics who would likely part company from Mr. Popey. The hardliners in most any Church, but especially the RCC, would very much balk and go into fits over what many "lapsed" members get up to. And probably at what more than a few parishoners do in private as well.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 22 July 2004 09:41 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw a recent report about the Catholic Church...it still remains one of the largest churches in Canada but a whopping 70% of those who call themselves Catholics do not go to Church. Their priests are dying off and retiring much, much quicker than they are being replaced with new blood. It is only a matter of 30-40 years, IMO, before the Church ends up collapsing. Pushing the abortion issue is definitely one way to accelerate the death of the Church.
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Baldfresh
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posted 22 July 2004 09:56 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
^^Yay! A stat. I was too lazy to go and look, but I imagine a similar pattern is present for all the major branches. I know that the Anglicans were in some financial distress in recent years.

Its a no-win situation for them, particularly for the RCC. Even if he wanted to, the Pope couldn't endorse SSM, pro-choice, birth control. It would lose him most of the 30% that still do go to Church - and are thus likely its main economic base. Embracing new ideas gives no guarantee of bringing in the other 70% anyway; there is a growing (and sensible) trend towards spirtuality being something you find for yourself instead of something that gets blared at you from a pulpit from the cradle to the grave.

It's somewhat crude to say, but in many cases old ideas in this world will die when the people who believe most feverently in them do as well.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 23 July 2004 08:13 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

No, I mean Christian.


Please tell me this isn't going to turn into a 'Catholics aren't real Christians' thing.

Last night I couldn't sleep, and wound up watching TV. BBC2 does educational programming between about 2 and 6AM (not quite sure why, but if some kid gets back from the club, puts on the tube and gets knowledge, who am I to complain?). Anyways, I wound up watching part 3 of this:

Alternative Takes

It was, frankly, brilliant. Kids in the, oh, the 14-18 range-ish, talking about peer pressure, safe sex, masturbation, abortion, anything under the sun. One boy was openly out and spoke of how hard that is, another seemed to be trying to figure out where he stood. All of them were refreshingly honest and open and far more real than any television show script could ever be. Unfortunately there's not 'listen again' option.

Edited to fix sidescroll.

[ 23 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]

[ 23 July 2004: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 July 2004 08:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She didn't necessarily mean that, although that's a common sentiment among hardcore evangelicals like some of the people who attend my former church.

She might have just been responding to the question of whether she was narrowing her scope to Catholics, and saying, no, she's talking about Christians as a whole, not only Catholics.

Let's not assume the worst unless someone specifically says it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 10:56 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please tell me this isn't going to turn into a 'Catholics aren't real Christians' thing.

Thanks for pointing out that something I said was unclear. I would absolutely never assume such an ignorant position as catholics are not Christians. I was simply trying to specify I wasn't narrowing my comment to Catholics I meant the christian group as a whole.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 July 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hailey, how open would you be to a friendly conversation with the moderators of the United Church of Canada or the Presbyterian Church?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 11:41 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl,

I don't think anyone linked to the UCC in any way would feel that they could have a positive conversation with me. It's not an organization or a belief system that I acknowledge as christian or value. I would be cordial to anyone that I spoke to but I think that their hearing that would not lead them to be interested in a discussion but what am I going to do - lie?

Presbysterian is a pretty diverse group. I've been to a presbyterian church a few times. Jessica Simpson goes to Belair Presbyterian and she's a very devout christian. I think depending on which subset of the presbyterians, which individual church etc it's a worthy denomination.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 23 July 2004 11:45 AM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thanks for pointing out that something I said was unclear. I would absolutely never assume such an ignorant position as catholics are not Christians. I was simply trying to specify I wasn't narrowing my comment to Catholics I meant the christian group as a whole

But not people involved in the UCC?


From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But not people involved in the UCC?

No


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 July 2004 09:31 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, this is a pretty common view. Someone from my old church, when I told her I was attending a United Church occasionally (this was a couple of years ago) implied that the UCC stands for nothing, have no real belief system, etc.

It's quite a common thing among fundy evangelicals.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
shannifromregina
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posted 23 July 2004 09:33 PM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uhmmm I am so glad that I am not religeous to much contervesy there. However to the people who think abortion is wrong that is fine that is your opionion but what happens after the baby is born and is not wanted? Does is get beat to death because someone couldn't stand the crying or were just to lazy to want to feed the baby. Or better yet the baby gets to be born addicted to drugs or has FAS and if the mother couldn't care less what she was doing to a fetus what the hell makes you think she will be a great parent. Now don't get me wrong I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but for every one who says abortion is wrong then go hold a 2 hour old baby going through with herion withdrawl it is the most shocking and heart wrenching thing you have ever seen and the mother is caught shooting up in the bathroom at the hospital. I know that there is adoption but that is not what this thread is about. So maybe people who get up on their high horse should realize most people do not take abortion lightly and from what I am told they have to go through extensive councilling first. So remeber the children being born who's parents could care less about and see in 20 years where they are.(It probably won't be anyplace good)
From: regina | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 09:48 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but what happens after the baby is born and is not wanted? Does is get beat to death because someone couldn't stand the crying Or better yet the baby gets to be born addicted to drugs or has FAS. I don't think abortion should be used as birth control but for every one who says abortion is wrong then go hold a 2 hour old baby going through with herion withdrawl I So maybe people who get up on their high horse should realize most people do not take abortion lightly and from what I am told they have to go through extensive councilling first.

I think it is very important to support mothers succeed as parents if they choose to have their babies and not relinquish them for adoption although I celebrate adoption as a wonderful choice. I also believe that if we see indicators of child abuse we need to remove children. I have read studies that show that most abused children were, infact, wanted. The issue that led to the abuse was unrealistic parenting expectations not "unwantedness".

Additionally, I don't believe that tearing an unborn child limb to limb is the prevention of child abuse but the ultimate form of it. As well although it is a tragedy for mothers to use drugs or alchol during pregnancy I don't believe that children with FASD are less valuable. I don't believe that extinguishing the disabled is the answer to disability issues.

I spend a lot of time holding babies born following complex pregnancies and I'm familiar with the reality of the neurodevelopmental issues these children face.

Extensive counselling is also not required.

Also if it is not the taking of an innocent human life...if it is a sub human expendable thats worth is contingent upon the emotions of the parents...why not use it for birth control? If it is a nonhuman and expendable that is all that should matter to you - not the reason.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
shannifromregina
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posted 23 July 2004 10:02 PM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IF you are going to quote me then quote me right. And I never said FAS children weren't equal but get real some children are not wanted except that fact. Abortion should not be used for birth control why because I don't think a child should be ripped from limb to limb as you say because someone was to stupid or didn't care to put a condom on. And you never once said if you ever held a crack addicted baby. And yes we should report abuse and help people learn to parent better only if they really want to learn. Is it better for a child to be born to someone who is so drug addicted that they could care less about anything other than the drug, yes it would be adoption would be ideal but usually that does not happen. How many cases of new born babies have been murdered because people did not want them then yes abortion should have been the answer, because now the parents are up for murder ( I don't want another contervesy about this) but I also remember my great grandmother telling my about the women who used to go in the back alley's to have abortions with coat hangers. Yes that would be good to let that happen again.
From: regina | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 10:20 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
IF you are going to quote me then quote me right. ... Abortion should not be used for birth control why because I don't think a child should be ripped from limb to limb...because someone was to stupid or didn't care to put a condom on. And you never once said if you ever held a crack addicted baby.... Is it better for a child to be born to someone who is so drug addicted that they could care less about anything other than the drug....How many cases of new born babies have been murdered because people did not want them then yes abortion should have been the answer.

I'm sorry you feel I misquoted you. I had thought you were suggesting that a child was better off aborted than born with FASD. I misunderstood and I'm sorry.

I have held for and cared for children born following a pregnancy that was inclusive of drugs and alcohol.

The death of a newborn is a tragedy as is the death of an unborn child. I don't believe that it is more of a tragedy because they are bigger and have been here longer. They are both losses. Abortion is never the answer.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 23 July 2004 10:32 PM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

No


hahah... right.

I've had plenty of exposure to the UCC (my stepdad is doing training to go into the ministry there, actually) and the claim that they don't have a belief system and that they don't stand for anything is bullshit. (I'm not saying that you said that, Michelle, just stating my opinion on that claim.)

The united church is heavily involved in social justice and they are followers of Jesus.

I remember hearing that the United Church was the largest of the protestant churches in Canada, and suddenly they aren't Christian.


From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 10:35 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The united church is heavily involved in social justice and they are followers of Jesus.

I remember hearing that the United Church was the largest of the protestant churches in Canada, and suddenly they aren't Christian.


The UCC became non christian in my eyes when they decided that you didn't need to believe in the message of salvation in order to participate in communion and they rejected trinity as a "necessary" belief.

That being said christians could learn much from the social justice features of the church and their efforts in some of those areas. That's commendable.

Good people? Maybe. Christians? Not in my eyes.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 23 July 2004 10:39 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
Good people? Maybe. Christians? Not in my eyes.

Oooh; I've never actually had a chance to talk to a fundy before. I've got a question: is it your belief that non-christians go to hell?


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Amy
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posted 23 July 2004 10:52 PM      Profile for Amy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I don't get why people think they are the arbiters of Christianity... isn't it up to God to decide, like pax and michelle have pointed out?
From: the whole town erupts and/ bursts into flame | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 July 2004 10:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why shouldn't abortion be used for birth control? (I'm not sure exactly what that phrase means anyhow.)

If we support a woman's right to choose abortion on demand, then abortion on demand means that women can have it without having to justify their decision (e.g. "the condom broke" or "the pill failed"). If a woman has total dominion over her body with regards to abortion, then there shouldn't even be a question of WHY she is having the abortion. I should be allowed to have an abortion because I don't happen to like the colour of shoes I'm wearing that day and an abortion might make me feel better about it. (In other words, my reasons don't have to make sense to anyone else or seem justified to anyone else.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 11:26 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oooh; I've never actually had a chance to talk to a fundy before. I've got a question: is it your belief that non-christians go to hell?

Most non-christians will not go to heaven.

quote:
I should be allowed to have an abortion because I don't happen to like the colour of shoes I'm wearing that day and an abortion might make me feel better about it. (In other words, my reasons don't have to make sense to anyone else or seem justified to anyone else.)

I initially cringed when I saw your post and I think that it might last several hours even but...you are at least honest. I realize many women see it as a trivial experience and their greatest interest is who will pay the bill. Sometimes I forget that and it's a good reminder.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 23 July 2004 11:36 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
I initially cringed when I saw your post and I think that it might last several hours even but...you are at least honest. I realize many women see it as a trivial experience and their greatest interest is who will pay the bill. Sometimes I forget that and it's a good reminder.

I think you'll find any woman who's ever had an abortion will cringe at what you just said, actually. I'm guessing that for most the issue of having an abortion or not is taken about as seriously as you take your faith. Michelle's comments weren't meant in a glib manner, only to try and express that it's none of anyone else's goddamn business what she (or other women) do with their bodies.

As to

quote:
"Most non-christians will not go to heaven."

Ah well, fuck it. Heaven for climate, hell for company.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 23 July 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Where do most of the non-Christians go, Hailey? And why do some of the non-Christians go to heaven?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 23 July 2004 11:41 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
And why do some of the non-Christians go to heaven?

*cough*bribe St. Peter with a fiver*cough*


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 July 2004 11:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, Hailey, I could never have an abortion myself. I've known that about myself ever since I was pregnant with my son. I also know other women who would never have a child and would feel no qualms whatsoever about having an abortion.

I know what I wrote was flip; however, it was an exaggeration in order to demonstrate that if women truly have the right to control their own reproductive system, and the right to abortion on demand, then they shouldn't have to have a "good reason" - or indeed, any reason at all - to abort, and their decision should never be questioned. If I want an abortion, it's nobody's business but my own.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 23 July 2004 11:53 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Murray McLauchlan has a great song called "Louisa Can't Feed Another Child" (Midnight Break, 1985). Can't find the lyrics online but the main refrain goes...

    "Those people on the sidewalk
    Marchin' with their signs
    They mean nothing to Louisa
    She can't feed another child..."

From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 23 July 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm guessing that for most the issue of having an abortion or not is taken about as seriously as you take your faith.

I think there is probably a pendulum of seriousness that this experience is offered. I just always forget that not everyone views it as the tragedy that I do and some *not all* assign a very low level of importance to the whole experience.

quote:
Where do most of the non-Christians go, Hailey? And why do some of the non-Christians go to heaven?

Most non-christians go to hell. Please keep in mind that I see that as a place that is without God. I don't see it as a place of torment or punishment. It is the absence of God alone that makes it hell.

Non christians that have developmental disabilities or mental handicaps that impair them from making a decision or children will automatically go to heaven. Persons who have not had an opportunity to discern matters of faith and draw conclusions will not be prevented from going to heaven.

quote:
I also know other women who would never have a child and would feel no qualms whatsoever about having an abortion.

I forget that and need reminders about those women. I tend to only have relationships with women who would focus on it as a tragedy. Persons who would casually abort are outside of my social circle so it's helpful to be reminded of that population.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
shannifromregina
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posted 24 July 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for shannifromregina     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dear Hailey,
Thank you for apoligizing. I just want it to be said any child should have the chance to have a good life including FAS, disabled children so on so on. And I want you to know that I was totally against abortion since I could remember until someone casually remarked about how a mother said nothing to the child except how much she hated having to have him and wished he was dead. So I just think if you resent the child that much to wish it dead then for sure abort or if you know you are not capable of loving a child because when you have a child that child is first and foremost before anything else.Then abort( adoption,adoption,adoption) but some people do not see that. And I want to go on record to say yes some people use it a birth control and all I have is disdain for that. After the first abortion you should by then now how to prevent it. Even if it takes together a condom, depo, the sponge and the pill ( which probably shouldn't be used with depo) you get the drift because if that was me I would be doing everythign to prevent an unwanted pregancy to begin with not afterward.


P.S so if us all non christians don't go to heaven then how does John Edwards stay in business
(just trying to lighten the mood a little)


From: regina | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 July 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Most non-christians go to hell.

Thank you for that answer, Hailey. By the way, my faith teaches that the above statement is a sin.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 12:43 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thank you for that answer, Hailey. By the way, my faith teaches that the above statement is a sin.

Heck, I already make enough mistakes in my own faith and now I'm violating others

Well thank you for sharing that with me.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 July 2004 12:46 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Anytime.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 24 July 2004 01:56 AM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One more bit of song, since this thread has quite a few already:

If God controls the land and disease,
keeps a watchful eye on me,
If he's really so damn mighty,
my problem is I can't see,
well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?
Well who would wanna be?
Who would wanna be such a control freak?

Yeah, nothing to do with abortion. But we've drifted somewhat mes amis, yes we have.

Edited to add: Well, upon looking, it seems more like just Hinterland and I (well, me first, but propah grammar places him in front ) started drifting and trying to discuss meta-issues with Hailey. Heh. Still a great song.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Baldfresh ]


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 24 July 2004 02:49 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since all my fave pro-choice songs have already been posted, I figure I'd post one usually perceived as anti-abortion. Enjoy, Hailey:

quote:
THE SEX PISTOLS - BODIES

She was a girl from Birmingham
She just had an abortion
She was case of insanity
Her name was Pauline, she lived in a tree

She was a no one who killed her baby
She sent her letter from the country
She was an animal
She was a bloody disgrase

Body, I'm not an animal
Body, I'm not an animal

Dragged on a table in factory
Illegitimate place to be
In a packet in a lavatory
Die little baby, screaming

Body, screaming fucking bloody mess
Not an animal, it's an abortion

Body, I'm not animal
Mummy, I'm not an abortion

Throbbing squirm
Gurgling bloody mess
I'm not a discharge
I'm not a loss in protein
I'm not a throbbing squirm
Ah!...

Fuck this and fuck that
Fuck it all and fuck the fucking brat
She don't want a baby that looks like that
I don't want a baby that looks like that
Body, I'm not an animal
Body, an abortion

Body, I'm not an animal
An animal
I'm not an animal.....
I'm not an abortion.....

Mummy! UGH!


On the other hand:

quote:
Women have the right to have abortions. Period. This is somewhere where no one should interfere. It should never be considered illegal, but then you shouldn't be able to get yourself into that position in the first place. It's only ignorance and lack of education about contraception that leads to these disasters. -- John Lydon, 1992

From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 03:02 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We are exchanging competing points of view through music?

http://members.aol.com/journeywithsue/Page34.html


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rabelais
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posted 24 July 2004 08:18 AM      Profile for Rabelais     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to be a rabid anti-choicer when I was growing up, mostly because I grew up in a Catholic household where the opposite point of view was never even considered. I watched that Degrassi episode and I shook my head at the "poor decision" that Erica had made, and I hoped that when I was a doctor I'd have the courage to "help women make the right choice".

Then I grew up.

I split from the Catholic church long ago, though I still go with my parents sometimes when they come over for Easter or Christmas. The pope lost me long ago, and last year, when everybody's favourite Bashin' Bishop, Fred Henry, wrote that polemic about Chretien going to hell because of gay marriage, I wrote the bishop who'd confirmed me and told him that I was so disguted with the perversion of democracy that Henry had perpetrated that I wanted to be voluntarily excommunicated.

And as for abortion, now that I'm in medical school? I went to the lecture that we had on reproductive choices, and one of the dates that my partner and I went on last year was to a bake sale for Medical Students For Choice. I look back on how I thought back then, on my hope that I could "convince women to make another choice", and I realize that I'd be a pretty crappy doctor if I did that because that's not my job.

I don't plan on performing abortions when I'm practising, though I think it's important that I learn how. That way I'll be able to present the information fairly, and if the scenario arsies that I'm practising in somewhere remote and there's no other alternative, that I would be able to perform one for women who might otherwise have that choice unavailable to them.

What I do plan on doing, should a woman come to my office and ask for information on abortion, is to make sure that she's making the decision freely, that she understands what the procedure involves and the potential risks (by which I mean the potential risks with taking any drug or undergoing any surgical procedure), and then giving her the contact information she needs, with the intent of following up on her care the next time she visits my office. I feel like I should make sure that she knows the alternatives (though I'd be hard pressed to believe that she hadn't considered them already). I still feel like my job is to "help my patient make the right decision" but nowadays, that means giving my patients the information that they need, refusing to judge them for making the decision that they feel is best for them, and respecting them enough to presume that the choice they make is the one that makes the most sense for them.

I still wish abortion didn't have to happen. But I also wish heart attacks and cancer didn't have to happen. Any my first loyalty has to be to my patients, and I hope that I can be the sort of doctor who's respectful enough to trust my patients to make the best decision for them.

Whew, that was long and rambling. I did mention Degrassi, though.


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 08:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This point of view really bothers me:

quote:
It should never be considered illegal, but then you shouldn't be able to get yourself into that position in the first place. It's only ignorance and lack of education about contraception that leads to these disasters.

Even if we live in a utopia where everyone has enough money to raise children, and everyone has access to birth control, there will still be a need for abortions. Because some women will get pregnant (if the birth control doesn't work) and want abortions.

I heard this during the NDP leadership debate as well, a year and a half ago. Every leadership candidate talked about "eliminating the need for abortions" by making it so women wouldn't be forced financially to choose abortion. Which is a big sissy cop-out. Even if every woman is rich, there are going to be women who don't want children, or don't want children RIGHT NOW. And those women don't have to have financial excuses. They get abortions. Period.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mhandel
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posted 24 July 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for mhandel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hailey, what do you think of Latin American Liberation theologists? Do you consider them Christians? Do you consider the (ones who called themselves Catholic) Catholics?

"The first theological reflections that were to lead to liberation theology had their origins in a context of dialogue between a church and a society in ferment, between Christian faith and the longings for transformation and liberation arising from the people. The Second Vatican Council produced a theological atmosphere characterized by great freedom and creativity. This gave Latin American theologians the courage to think for themselves about pastoral problems affecting their countries. This process could be seen at work among both Catholic and Protestant thinkers with the group Church and Society in Latin America (ISAL) taking a prominent put. There were frequent meetings between Catholic theologians (Gustavo Gutiérrez, Segundo Galilea, Juan Luis Segundo, Lucio Gera, and others) and Protestant Emilio Castro, Julio de Santa Ana, Rubem Alves, José Míguez Bonino), leading to intensified reflection on the relationship between faith and poverty, the gospel and social justice, and the like. In Brazil, between 1959 and 1964, the Catholic left produced a series of basic texts on the need for a Christian ideal of history, linked to popular action, with a methodology that foreshadowed that of liberation theology; they urged personal engagement in the world, backed up by studies of social and liberal sciences, and illustrated by the universal principles of Christianity...."

http://www.landreform.org/boff2.htm


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 09:36 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I spend a lot of time holding babies born following complex pregnancies and I'm familiar with the reality of the neurodevelopmental issues these children face.

Hailey, I'm about to ask an impertinent question, and you have every right to refuse to answer. But since you're already said that much, would you mind telling us what you do, precisely -- that is, in what context are you caring for babies with neurodevelopmental issues?

As it happens, I have a semi-personal, semi-intellectual interest in the psychology of caregivers. I observe professional caregivers every day and have been a voluntary one myself. It is exceptionally -- intense? -- work, no question, and I am often thinking and wondering about the widely different effects that it has on different people. It tends to make crusaders of many of us -- I'm no exception -- although the crusades, curiously, go off in such different directions.

Sorry for the drift, but I am interested.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 12:23 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hailey, I'm about to ask an impertinent question, and you have every right to refuse to answer. But since you're already said that much, would you mind telling us what you do, precisely -- that is, in what context are you caring for babies with neurodevelopmental issues?

I am in the final stages of completing my Bachelor of Science in Nursing. During the component of the program where you attend at the hospital I went to pediatrics. Part of my experiences stem from there. I'd rather not specify which hospital.

Additionally, I have had two experiences where I met people (not at work, that would be a boundary violation but in volunteer or other settings) with untimely pregnancies who needed some support, assistance, and friendship after the baby was born. One woman had a child that was already born and she was feeling more overwhelmed than she expected. The other woman was well into her pregnancy and elated at being a new mother despite all of the social circumstances that surrounded her. When I realized the extent of her difficulties I made a special effort to continue to reach out to her. She was using drugs and alcohol throughout her pregnancy. (As an aside she never considered abortion and was enamoured with the idea of having a baby, one of her deficits is she is challenged to have a realistic view of parenting. So this is not a case of a woman who was denied an abortion. This was a PLANNED pregnancy).

Due to drug use she delivered early. Her child was born at 28 weeks, has ROP, was on oxygen for the early months of life, takes phenobarb to control seizures, was NG fed in the early months, and still has some gross and fine motor delays. He has classic features of FASD. This combined with a maternal report of substance abuse has allowed the doctors to confirm this disability as a factor in his life as well. it is suspected that he will have cognitive deficits as a result of this disability.

Part of his early intervention programming involves the need to do many home-based exercises. His mother's ability to attend to these things consistently is suspect so I make a conscious effort to go over 2-3 times a week. I help her out with his programming, offer to take care of him for a few hours, and try to offer her emotional and practical support as well.

As well, my own sister had severe health problems during her pregnancy and the baby was born early. The baby does not have FASD but the baby has difficulties related to being born early. That situation I just can't get into too much.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 12:48 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rabeleis,

We will never disagree on this issue. But, just to address a few things

1) I respect people who disagree with the church and choose to *leave* it as a result. I think that's more admirable than people who remain with all of their differences and try to pretend as if their thinking is a reflection of doctrine. That is an irritant to me of great magnitude. I respect the character that it took to leave.

2) You said you "grew up" and became prochoice. If that's your assessment of your own movement to a a philosophy that included abortion as a valuable asset to society then that's fine. If, however, it's an inference that anyone who isn't prochoice just hasn't "grown up" yet that's a bit of an insult. You don't know people's life paths and how they got where they did.

3) I view the unborn child as one of the patients that a doctor has and I would not allow care to be performed on me by a prochoice doctor.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Hailey. I admire you. I disagree with you about many things, but you write of the extremely demanding work that you do with almost no trace of caregiver ego, which I think is remarkable.

I think a lot about what happens to us when we take on these responsibilities. I don't have many conclusions to draw, except I am constantly warning myself against becoming a zealot. Struggling constantly against disease and death can have that unfortunate effect.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 12:58 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think people can disagree about topics even as volatile as this one and still identify other things that I can share a common view on.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 01:04 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But you still won't let me call myself a Christian, Hailey; and you still can't see that that is insulting to moi.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 01:08 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you still won't let me call myself a Christian, Hailey; and you still can't see that that is insulting to moi.

Well, I don't mean to be insulting and I feel badly if your feelings are hurt but I can't lie...that's what I think.

Doesn't mean you are not a person with good qualities, a good person, blah blah...but I have a non-inclusive definition of what a christian is.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 01:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'sokay, Hailey. I'm tough.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 01:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And after all - she can't stop you from calling yourself a Christian - she's just not going to call you one, that's all.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 24 July 2004 01:41 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WWJCAC?

Who Would Jesus Call A Christian?


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 01:51 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, we know that he was fond of sinners but had very low tolerance for the money-changers in the temple.

He was also irritated by loud and self-righteous prayer, and taught us when we pray to say, Lord, be merciful unto me, a sinner.

Plus, y'know, that other prayer.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, and don't even get him started on that whole "woe to the scribes and pharisees" kick.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 02:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I've got no patience with the Pharisees m'self, but watch it with the cheap shots about scribes, eh, Michelle?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 02:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Woe!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, do you think that we are being ... irreverent?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 02:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not at all. We're being very devout, quoting section and verse, etc.

The "woe to the scribes and pharisees" rant is probably one of my most favorite passages in the whole Bible, both testaments included.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rabelais
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posted 24 July 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for Rabelais     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Rabeleis,
We will never disagree on this issue. But, just to address a few things

1) I respect people who disagree with the church and choose to *leave* it as a result. I think that's more admirable than people who remain with all of their differences and try to pretend as if their thinking is a reflection of doctrine. That is an irritant to me of great magnitude. I respect the character that it took to leave.


Thank you(I presume you mean "agree" up above there; that threw me for a second). That compliment does sound a little backhanded, though; my mother, for instance, remains a strong Catholic even though she profoundly disagrees with its stance on homosexuality. 91% of Catholics believe in birth control. I think there's an argument that they're courageous, too, for thinking for themselves within a structure that still has some meaning to them.

quote:

2) You said you "grew up" and became prochoice. If that's your assessment of your own movement to a a philosophy that included abortion as a valuable asset to society then that's fine. If, however, it's an inference that anyone who isn't prochoice just hasn't "grown up" yet that's a bit of an insult. You don't know people's life paths and how they got where they did.

More the former than the latter. When I turned eighteen, my positions on pretty much everything started tilting left. I really do think that was part of the natural course of my evolution as a human being, to be honest.

quote:

3) I view the unborn child as one of the patients that a doctor has and I would not allow care to be performed on me by a prochoice doctor.

How would you ever know? It's not like we wear buttons announcing ourselves. I think you'll find, more and more, that many physicains in Canada are pro-choice, and many that enter medical school anti-choice start to see things from a different perspective once they start encountering patients. (Totally anecdotal, mind, but that's been my experience). But that's totally your choice. If you were my patient, and you told me that you couldn't let me be your doctor because of my beliefs, then I'd probably shrug and make sure you knew where to go to find a more suitable phyiscian. You always have the right to switch doctors.


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 03:21 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rabelais,

Thanks for your post.

My comment wasn't intended to be backhanded at all. It was sincere.

quote:
How would you ever know? It's not like we wear buttons announcing ourselves... If you were my patient, and you told me that you couldn't let me be your doctor because of my beliefs, then I'd probably shrug and make sure you knew where to go to find a more suitable phyiscian. You always have the right to switch doctors.

How would I know? Do I strike you as a quiet demure subtle girl? I'd ask!!!

When my sister was ill I would not allow a prochoice physician, including a resident, near her. It caused some waves, definitely, but it was her request. Particularly when I have a baby I will ensure that the doctor is prolife. I am not sure I batted 100% with my sister and her requests but I did my best.

And, really, I wouldn't expect you to do more than shrug. I wouldn't say it expecting someone to go "Well, I'll be prolife then". When I asked the doctors I got a variety of different responses ranging "how is that relevant" to "I'm not answering that" to an actual candid reply. I only had one physician have a childish temper tantrum in response.

It was never about convincing anyone to have a different point of view. It was always about advocating to have a certain type of physician and a certain style of care.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 24 July 2004 04:29 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"It was never about convincing anyone to have a different point of view. It was always about advocating to have a certain type of physician and a certain style of care."

Then this should apply to those who feel they need an abortion too. By the way, Pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean fully supporting abortion without reservations. I'm pro-choice, though I wish fewer women felt that this is their only alternative. I don't agree with using scare tactics and forcing women to remain pregnant against their wills.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't agree with using scare tactics and forcing women to remain pregnant against their wills.

Without apology I believe that abortion should be illegal and that women should be supported only with the decision to carry the pregnancy to term. Abortion should be restricted to rare life saving instances.

I agree, however, that there is *some* element of truth that *some* prolife people in the community use scare tactics. I can't support that.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 05:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Without apology I believe that abortion should be illegal and that women should be supported only with the decision to carry the pregnancy to term. Abortion should be restricted to rare life saving instances.

Command the waves, Hailey.

It astounds me, truly it does, that people can ignore all the historical knowledge we have -- from anthropology, which tells us that women of every time and every culture have always sought abortions, whatever the laws or customs or religions, many dying in the attempt, of course; or from the history of the Christian church, whose leaders only decided to criminalize abortions in the C19, the Pope having decided to be infallible only at about the same time.

The truth shall set you free. Or not, if you're determined not to look. But keep your cookie-tongs off me.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Command the waves, Hailey.

It astounds me, truly it does, that people can ignore all the historical knowledge we have -- from anthropology, which tells us that women of every time and every culture have always sought abortions, whatever the laws or customs or religions, many dying in the attempt, of course; or from the history of the Christian church, whose leaders only decided to criminalize abortions in the C19...The truth shall set you free. Or not, if you're determined not to look. But keep your cookie-tongs off me.


Don't know what command the waves or cookie-tongs mean, sorry I am quite aware that thus far we have not yet achieved a time when some women did not use their power over the unborn to try to end their lives. I see that as tragic. I also recognize that it makes it a huge barrier to ever accomplishing that in the future, I realize the odds are against those trying to protect the babies. It may not be feasible to end it within my lifetime.

I don't know that it not being feasible within my lifetime to end their demise means that it's perfectly okay and we should just "shut up" about it. I mean we have not, thus far, managed to have a world where women are not raped yet I haven't said "well, rape is always going to happen so who gives a shit lets just accept it". You have to fight wrong things even if your odds are poor.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But sometimes, Hailey, when you discover at the last moment that you have been on a crusade that everyone else considers murderous, that you alone, enraptured with the purity of your own thoughts, have not noticed what violence you are doing to real human beings ... sometimes, Hailey, you look in the mirror and see who the real enemy of humanity has been all along.

Google "command the waves." Google also "Robespierre" and "Jacobin."


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But sometimes, Hailey, when you discover at the last moment that you have been on a crusade that everyone else considers murderous, that you alone, enraptured with the purity of your own thoughts, have not noticed what violence you are doing to real human beings ... sometimes, Hailey, you look in the mirror and see who the real enemy of humanity has been all along"

Certainly, if you or anyone believes that I am a murderous person or that I'm violent you have the right to speak up but beyond that also the responsibility. I can respect that you disagree with me and that you do that with a clear sense that you are right. I don't fault you for that.

I think that if you knew me though you would not feel comfortable portraying me as terrorist like, violent, or an enemy of humanity although I am sure you would not be more likely to agree with me. But, that's speculative on my part you might meet me and continue to see me as truly evil.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2004 05:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
But sometimes, Hailey, when you discover at the last moment that you have been on a crusade that everyone else considers murderous, that you alone, enraptured with the purity of your own thoughts, have not noticed what violence you are doing to real human beings ...

I agree with your point of view on the issue, skdadl, but I think this is a poor argument, if only because everyone doesn't consider the pro-life position to be murderous - it's an issue that is deeply divisive, with lots of people on both sides.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 24 July 2004 05:53 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
It astounds me, truly it does, that people can ignore all the historical knowledge we have -- from anthropology, which tells us that women of every time and every culture have always sought abortions, whatever the laws or customs or religions, many dying in the attempt, of course; or from the history of the Christian church, whose leaders only decided to criminalize abortions in the C19, the Pope having decided to be infallible only at about the same time.

The truth shall set you free. Or not, if you're determined not to look. But keep your cookie-tongs off me.


Indeed; and similar logic applies not just abortions, but pretty much every manner of prohibition concerning what are essentially matters of personal choice: sexual orientation, drug use, prostitution. Moral highground or not nothing has changed in the past couple of thousand years, and isn't likely to anytime soon. (well, things have progressed in some places, somewhat . . .)

You can have hookers, or you can have hookers getting themselves beaten by pimps and picking up diseases.

You can have junkies, or you can have junkies living on the streets and getting AIDS from dirty needles.

And as to sexual preference . . .heh. If Hailey sticks around its going to be fun to see Heph and a few others have "words" with her . . ..

But whatever your "moral" stance, people are going to do whatever they want, because its their lives. Its just a matter of how much pain the bullshit laws we have in place happen to cause for our "moral highground".


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
John_D
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posted 24 July 2004 06:05 PM      Profile for John_D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since the topic of medical ethics and abortion has come up in this thread, I thought I'd mention the Cider House Rules. I thought it brought up some interesting points about how the ethics change for a doctor if abortion is illegal. If abortions are banned, then even a pro-life doctor has to consider that if they won't provide a safe and competent abortion to a woman who wants one, she will almost certainly get an unsafe abortion from an incompetent provider. In trying to save the life of the fetus, the doctor may well be condemning the mother to death, or to a loss of her fertility. Sort of makes "Do no harm" a much harder basis for decision-making.
From: Workin' 9 to 2 in the 902. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 06:06 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And as to sexual preference . . .heh. If Hailey sticks around its going to be fun to see Heph and a few others have "words" with her . . ..

Sexual preference? I'm not thinking that's been a focus of much of what I've said. Are you suggesting you think I'm against same sex marriage or something? I'm not. I'm a total liberal on that. I don't know who Heph is. I am not sure what you think he'd say to me. But, if it's about sex....i really can't see me discussing sex in any kind of questionable way with men I don't know.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
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posted 24 July 2004 06:09 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If abortions are banned, then even a pro-life doctor has to consider that if they won't provide a safe and competent abortion to a woman who wants one, she will almost certainly get an unsafe abortion from an incompetent provider. In trying to save the life of the fetus, the doctor may well be condemning the mother to death, or to a loss of her fertility. Sort of makes "Do no harm" a much harder basis for decision-making.

Cider house rules is a movie made by prochoicers and they chose a manipulative plot line. No genuine prolife physician would provide a woman with an abortion. Could a prolife person become prochoice? yes, I've seen it happen. Could a genuine prolife person kill a baby? N-e-v-e-r. And no physician is condemning a mother to death, she is making her own set of choices. The only physician taking an active role in death is the one performing the abortion.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 24 July 2004 06:47 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haily what is it exactly you think a prochoice doctor will do to you?

I can tell you what a prolife one did to a friend I had.

She had a terrible time with her first pregnancy, almost died in fact and was told she was not to try to have more children.

After her horrible experience her hubby decided the right thing to do would be to go get snipped. They waited the correct amount of time had the green light that he was shooting blanks and lo and behold he wasn't.

She went to the doctor in town, who was pro life, and was told that it was her responsibility to carry the fruit of her husbands loins ( yes his actual words) to term. That god would take care of her and that should she die her husband could always marry again.

She was unable to secure an appointment within the first three month time period. Having assumed she had a flu or other illness,due to the fact they were told he was safe.

In any case at 5 months into the pregnancy her health failed, the baby had to be delivered by emergency c section, both lingered close to death for sometime.

There was no need for this to have ever happened.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5864

posted 24 July 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:

Sexual preference? I'm not thinking that's been a focus of much of what I've said. Are you suggesting you think I'm against same sex marriage or something? I'm not. I'm a total liberal on that. I don't know who Heph is. I am not sure what you think he'd say to me.

My apologies; you're not as fundamental as some other fundies I've heard of, then, if you have no issues with gays + lesbians. Heph is a vocal supporter of gay rights on the board, that's all. So I guess no online shouting matching between you + him then, eh? Ah well . . ..


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Zahid Zaman
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posted 24 July 2004 06:53 PM      Profile for Zahid Zaman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not counting many of today's estranged youth who end up getting pregnant in the middle of high school and end up ruining the rest of their lives because they couldn't get an abortion. I can understand what pro-life folks have against abortion but there should lawfully be a period during which a pregnancy can be aborted.
From: Mississauga/Waterloo, ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 24 July 2004 06:53 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My apologies; you're not as fundamental as some other fundies I've heard of, then, if you have no issues with gays + lesbians. Heph is a vocal supporter of gay rights on the board, that's all. So I guess no online shouting matching between you + him then, eh? Ah well . . ..

I can understand thinking that as the most common view in the fundamentalist circles is that gay and lesbian relationships should not be formalized within marriage. My own view is unique within those circles, I realize that. I just figure as long as they are not making same sex marriage mandatory that it's really not a big concern to me

I think that what adults do is really up to them. Leave the babies alone and we can all get along


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 24 July 2004 06:59 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
what is it exactly you think a prochoice doctor will do to you?
I can tell you what a prolife one did to a friend I had.She had a terrible time with her first pregnancy, almost died in fact and was told she was not to try to have more children.
After her horrible experience her hubby decided the right thing to do would be to go get snipped. They waited the correct amount of time had the green light that he was shooting blanks and lo and behold he wasn't.She went to the doctor in town, who was pro life, and was told that it was her responsibility to carry the fruit of her husbands loins ( yes his actual words) to term. That god would take care of her and that should she die her husband could always marry again.She was unable to secure an appointment within the first three month time period. Having assumed she had a flu or other illness,due to the fact they were told he was safe.In any case at 5 months into the pregnancy her health failed, the baby had to be delivered by emergency c section, both lingered close to death for sometime. There was no need for this to have ever happened.

I simply do not want to financially or morally support someone who is prochoice by patronizing their business.

With my sister there were lots of practical reasons to not want a prochoice doctor. We had nightmarish experiences with prochoice doctors.

Beyond that depending on what the issues were I would simply not trust the physician. If I were pregnant I would not feel that he saw the baby and I as equal patients and that he would always regard the baby as a subhuman expendable. I would have images of him going into one operating room and completing an abortion and then coming and examining me. If he just aborted a baby of a similiar gestation how can I truly believe that he regards my baby as a precious child that should be saved at all costs? He wouldn't and doesn't. I just want care from someone with a similar value system and I think I have that right as a patient.

If I was a mother taking in her young baby to a doctor it would bother me on many levels. I would just feel that this person felt fundamentally different about children and when their worth began. As the years unfolded I would worry that if he remained my child's doctor that he would deal with sexuality, birth control, and pregnancy issues differently than I could support.

I'm sorry that your friend had such a difficult experience. Yes, it was avoidable. She was entitled to better medical care. As well, she should have been a better advocate for herself. I can't justify anything that happened to her.

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]

[ 24 July 2004: Message edited by: Hailey ]


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 25 July 2004 02:05 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can't justify anything that happened to her.

But you will justify making it 100% certain that it'll happen to hundreds, thousands, millions of other women just like her.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hailey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6438

posted 25 July 2004 02:24 AM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But you will justify making it 100% certain that it'll happen to hundreds, thousands, millions of other women just like her.

Uhhh...well...abortion was *legal* when this happened...so lets not present this as a "back alley butcher job" or something...secondly, this is about medical incompetence...it is also about a patient ignoring *classic* pregnancy symptoms and delaying getting medical attention...and it's about following medical instructions following surgery. There are a wealth of things that went wrong here.

I would support this woman's right to have a tubal ligation or for her husband to have a vasectomy. I would absolutely see part of the responsibility of having one of those procedures is following all medical requirements.


From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 25 July 2004 12:08 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too long. Thank god.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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