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Author Topic: Why is it the Labor Party is Australia, but the Labour Party in NZ?
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 29 September 2004 02:00 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've always wondered that.

I found New Zealand to be fairly Anglophile (or Celtophile). Is Australia more Amerophile?

http://www.alp.org.au/

http://www.labour.org.nz/

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:13 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Is Australia more Amerophile?

According to a Kiwi friend of ours, yes. His exact phrase was "Australians have a hard-on to be Americans." Not said so much scathingly, mind you -- he's not that kind of gyu -- as amusedly/resignedly.


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 29 September 2004 02:14 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had heard that, I believe the phrase was 'little America'.

It's ironic, I wonder how much the NZ/Aus relationship mirrors the US/Canada one? Quite a bit, I imagine.


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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, not a bad analogy. Not that I've spent long in either place, but New Zealanders generally seem to dislike being mistaken for Australians, struggle a bit to differentiate themselves from Australians, and like that.
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josh
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posted 29 September 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, one person I know who's been there said that of all the countries he has visited, Australians were most like Americans.
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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd buy that -- at the same time as I'm not really comfortable with notions of "national character" and similar. Do I contradict myself? Well...
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Agent 204
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posted 29 September 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe because they don't want to spell it the way the pommie bastards do.

On the other hand, Australians say "petrol", whereas I've heard that Kiwis say "gas".

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: Mike Keenan ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 29 September 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
'lance, that was the most Canadian answer ever.
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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:38 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Flattery will get you nowhere, big fella -- but feel free to keep trying.

quote:
On the other hand, Australians say "petrol", whereas I've heard that Kiwis say "gas".

You're right. Two weeks driving around the North Island and that difference never occurred to me. Perhaps because I never had to buy "petrol" when in Australia a few years back.


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 29 September 2004 02:41 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Linguistic confusion and inconsistency, hmm? Maybe they are Canadians.
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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My dear fellow. It's not "confusion and inconsistency." It's "a lively and sophisticated eclecticism." Please to note the difference.
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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 29 September 2004 02:52 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We're so post-modern!
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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 02:54 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aaargh. That should be another in the "forbidden words" thread -- and probably is.
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 29 September 2004 03:22 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That goes double for "po-mo".
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Briguy
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posted 29 September 2004 04:44 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yes, not a bad analogy. Not that I've spent long in either place, but New Zealanders generally seem to dislike being mistaken for Australians, struggle a bit to differentiate themselves from Australians, and like that.

Funny, that. I certainly know some Kiwis who feel this way, and some Aussies. But if you put them in a room together, they get along charmingly and tend to bash American policy cheerfully*.

*John Howard is obviously the exception here.


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Hinterland
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posted 29 September 2004 04:46 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was this New Zealand comic who did this bit:

"The Australians claim the New Zealanders are having sex with the sheep.

The New Zealanders claim the Australians are having sex with the sheep.

You know what? I think it's the sheep who are the sluts."


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'lance
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posted 29 September 2004 04:53 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

quote:
Funny, that. I certainly know some Kiwis who feel this way, and some Aussies. But if you put them in a room together, they get along charmingly and tend to bash American policy cheerfully*.

Oh, sure. But then, that unites much of the world these days.

I don't mean to suggest there's a whole lot of antagonism between Australians and New Zealanders. At least if there is I'm not aware of it. From a couple of weeks somewhere you get mostly superficial impressions.


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Hephaestion
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posted 29 September 2004 06:16 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Lord Byron:
'lance, that was the most Canadian answer ever.

Sorry, but I think "the most Canadian answer ever" award has to go to one of Peter Gzowski's listeners from a few years back...

Peter was asking listeners to send in suggestions to complete the phrase "As Canadian as..." (in counterpoint to "As American as mom and apple pie.") He was flooded with responses, but the winning entry was the one that read,

"As Canadian as... possible under the circumstances."

I thought ol' Peter was going to expire laffing right there on-air.

*sigh* I sure miss Peter!

[ 29 September 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Odd similarities in a NZ historical timeline.

1965 NAFTA agreement negotiated with Australia
1980 Social Credit wins East Coast Bays by-election.
1986 Goods and Services Tax introduced.
1995 New political parties form: the Conservative and Christian Heritage parties


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Reality. Bites.
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posted 30 September 2004 01:07 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
*sigh* I sure miss Peter!

Nope, not gonna say a word. Uh-uh. Only gonna get myself in trouble. Not gonna touch that Peter with a ten-inch Pole, and I'm not dicking' around.


Q: Why did the Canadian chicken cross the road?

A: To get to the middle.


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 01:17 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From a history of the NZ parliament.

Many well-known MPs have clearly drunk too much alcohol, including one of Parliament’s longest-serving and best-known Speakers, Maurice O’Rorke. Julius Vogel missed a crucial vote on a motion to separate the North and South Islands into two separate colonies while ‘drunk and asleep’. The alcoholic Jerningham Wakefield was locked in a committee room without liquor to keep him sober enough to vote – but the opposing whip climbed onto the roof and lowered a bottle of whisky down the chimney. By the time the division was called, Wakefield was ‘paralytic’ under the table. Some years later another MP, John Joyce, was also locked in a room by a government whip and plied with alcohol to make him incapable of voting.

Among more recent incidents involving excessive alcohol consumption, one in January 1958 is both entertaining and might well have had political significance. After Robert Macfarlane, about whom Martin is quite uncomplimentary, had been made Speaker, Opposition leader Holyoake took charge of the Speaker’s liquor cabinet and ‘began pouring generous drinks’. One Labour MP passed out, removing the new government’s one-seat majority during the debate on its £100 tax rebate. Fortunately several National MPs were similarly incapacitated, although Labour still nearly lost the first vote when Warren Freer, who was in the shower, failed to hear the division bells.

An early Speaker, David Monro, on one occasion had the clock put back to delay the rising of the House, which would have prevented the third reading of a government bill designed to facilitate the alienation of Maori land.

Henry Sewell, whose journals proved ‘an indispensable source for the formative years of the House’, once tried to manhandle an opponent, James Mackay, out of the chamber. Mackay defended himself with ‘his trusty umbrella’ and finally escaped by climbing over the rail into the strangers’ gallery. Some years later, Vincent Pyke threatened Seddon with his walking stick but struck another MP by accident before being hauled – still shouting – out into the lobby.

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


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Hephaestion
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posted 30 September 2004 02:59 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
golly! One or two of them fellers might have been able to keep up with Sir John A., eh?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edited to add:

*snerk* x 2 at RB

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My favourite.
'Mackay defended himself with ‘his trusty umbrella’ and finally escaped by climbing over the rail into the strangers’ gallery'

Why does that sound like a great lost Avengers episode?


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'lance
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posted 30 September 2004 03:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder if their fondness for the bottle resulted in some geographical confusion?

quote:
1965 NAFTA agreement negotiated with Australia

Not only ahead of their time, but positively out of their hemisphere.


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 03:10 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great, not only do we get screwed by NAFTA, it's sloppy seconds from the kiwis and diggers.
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'lance
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posted 30 September 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Diggers" is a new one on me. In Australia I heard "daggo," as in "daggo hat" -- that broad-brimmed affair with the dangling corks (which I'm sure no-one has worn in generations).

But that doesn't refer to all Aussies -- I think city people (or maybe all non-farmers) use it to refer to rural or anyway farming people. A person will say of someone else "he's such an old dag," meaning a hick, or even a crude racist.

(Supposedly the word has nothing to do with "Dago," but instead refers to the little balls of, uh, shit that collect on the matted hind-quarters of sheep. Sheep-shearing's not necessarily a nice clean sort of job).

quote:
My favourite.
'Mackay defended himself with ‘his trusty umbrella’ and finally escaped by climbing over the rail into the strangers’ gallery'
Why does that sound like a great lost Avengers episode?

It does, though something tells me a tipsy New Zealand parliamentarian would be nothing like as suave as Patrick Macnee.

My lord, I've just realized -- our Kiwi friend is called Mackay, and some of his family have been in politics. In fact he's cousin to a guy who was a Cabinet Minister back in the 80s and early 90s. Obviously it's a common name, but I wonder if Umbrella Mackay was an ancestor.

quote:
Maybe because they don't want to spell it the way the pommie bastards do.

In both Australia and New Zealand I sensed a little residual hostility towards the English -- judging by toilet graffitti, anyway. Not really sure why. Memories of Gallipoli can't be that long.

[Edit to change "British" to "English" in that second-last sentence].

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 03:45 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I imagine it's not just Galipoli, but also an imperial residue. Perhaps something to do with having large Scots and Irish populations? We all know how they feel about their Anglo cousins.
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'lance
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posted 30 September 2004 04:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I imagine it's not just Galipoli, but also an imperial residue. Perhaps something to do with having large Scots and Irish populations? We all know how they feel about their Anglo cousins.

True. But then lots of English-speaking Canadians (not only them of course) are descended from Scots and Irish immigrants*, yet I've never noticed that much Anglophobia among most of them.

(*Ahem. Or are Scots or Irish immigrants, of course...)

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 04:05 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That is true. Perhaps we transferred all our reserves of distaste and annoyance to the Americans?

On a slightly more serious note, I know there is a lot of residual anger over the way the Antipodean countries felt they were treated in WWII, which led to the transference of allegiance (at least in Australia's part) from the UK to the US.

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


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'lance
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posted 30 September 2004 04:06 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They make convenient targets, don't they, the poor dears.

Edit:

And of course -- comically enough -- lots of those Scots- and Irish- descended Anglophones ended up referring to themselves as "English" and inveighing against the "French" -- mostly themselves descended from Bretons, Gascons, or whoever.

Edit again:

quote:
On a slightly more serious note, I know there is a lot of residual anger over the way the Antipodean countries felt they were treated in WWII, which led to the transference of allegiance (at least in Australia's part) from the UK to the US.

That's interesting. What were the causes of this anger, particularly?

[ 30 September 2004: Message edited by: 'lance ]


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Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 30 September 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The collapse of the British position in the Far East following the fall of Singapore left Australia (and to a lesser extent, NZ) exposed to a threatened Japanese invasion. With the concurrent (albeit temporary) collapse of the British position in Libya, the British were not able to support Australasia in its moment of greatest need. It was felt that Britain had abandoned its imperial responsibilities by favouring the defence of the Middle Eastern oil supply over her colonial children in the South Pacific. The fact that the UK didn't want to return the bulk of the Australian and NZ Armies from Egypt fuelled this.
In the interim, the US saw Australia as a convenient base of operations against Japan for General MacArthur and stepped in as Australia's new white knight. Since then, Australia has looked to the US for military allegiance.

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'lance
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posted 30 September 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah. Much is explained.

Back to silliness:

I've heard that the Australian nickname for American troops was "seppoes." This supposedly came from rhyming slang for Yank -- "septic tank."


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