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Author Topic: Cuba and Free Speech
Sven
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posted 10 March 2006 11:56 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All this ruckus over a little sign?
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 March 2006 11:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Noooooooooooooooo!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 11 March 2006 12:11 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Great, now Spector will be showing up here.

Seriously, while I have repeatedly called for less political repression in Cuba, that country would probably allow a much greater level of free speech if it didn't have a massive, heavily armed nation 90 miles to its north trying to reimpose the pre-revolutionary order by brute force.

And I'll be very interested to see if, should such a government be imposed by American arms, our "Enrique" will be calling for that government to allow free speech.

Given Cuban history, and the historic nature of the Cuban Right(in old Havana AND Little Havana), the answer to that is, "not bloody likely".

[ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 March 2006 12:15 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think this thread is getting a little longish. Perhaps someone should close it up?

What say ye?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 11 March 2006 12:22 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why bring Cuba into this? If anyone's actions are questionable, it's the Puerto Rican authorities, not Cuba.
From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 11 March 2006 12:22 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The sign was as much of a deliberate provocation as if it had been a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed.

I wouldn't try to suppress it in either case.

I believe in freedom of speech, whether in Puerto Rico, or Cuba, or Denmark, or Canada.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 March 2006 12:37 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
The sign was as much of a deliberate provocation as if it had been a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed.

Oh, it was certainly a deliberate provocation. But, then, most political speech probably is.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2006 12:38 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Murdering an idea in Puerto Rico

quote:
On Friday September 23, scores of FBI agents surrounded a house in semi-rural Hormigueros, Puerto Rico. They attacked, and a sniper shot Filiberto Ojeda Rios, the Responsible General of Los Macheteros, a revolutionary organization fighting for the independence of Puerto Rico. Wounded, Filiberto was left to bleed to death before the Feds moved in the next day.

This assassination sparked a wave of protest in Puerto Rico while the standoff was still going on, a wave which has continued to grow in the weeks since. Though some news stories appeared in the US media, they faded fast. In fact, this murder was three stories.


Who is the leader of that icehole ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 11 March 2006 12:39 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who was he provoking to violence? Was he trying to provoke violent towards Castro, or himself? Is either Enrique or Castro a recognized group?

I don't see the comparison between this and say what the Western Standard was trying to provoke.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 March 2006 12:40 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, I'm not sure what your post has to do with the man's sign and the Cuban government's reaction?
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 March 2006 12:42 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Who was he provoking to violence? Was he trying to provoke violent towards Castro, or himself? Is either Enrique or Castro a recognized group?

I don't see the comparison between this and say what the Western Standard was trying to provoke.


I don't know that there was any intention to provoke violence. Unless I saw contrary evidence, I'm assuming that was not his intention. Also, not sure anyone is making a comparison with the WS. I just thought the Cuban government's reaction was interesting.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2006 12:47 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
One of the protesters who showed up in front of the U.S. diplomatic mission in Havana bore a sign that said: "Down with Bush." Star Cuban athletes were among the hundreds of protesters. An official Cuban communique urged the Cuban team to "respond to the provocations with hits, home runs, strikes, outs."

Viva la revolucion!

[ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 March 2006 12:49 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Viva la revolucion!

What are you thoughts about the Cuban government's reaction to the sign?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2006 12:55 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

What are you thoughts about the Cuban government's reaction to the sign?


He can be excused. Enrique was just a lone nut acting on his own - a non-incident.

What's your reaction to the FBI assassinations of the pro-independence activists ?. Thy're an extension of your shadow government, not mine.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 11 March 2006 01:09 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
What's your reaction to the FBI assassinations of the pro-independence activists ?. Thy're an extension of your shadow government, not mine.

I don't know enough about the background of the event to know if there was police abuse or not.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 11 March 2006 01:12 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

Can you be imprisoned in the U.S. for fighting terrorism ? Yes, if you oppose terrorism in Miami.

[ 11 March 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 11 March 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What few people outside of Cuba realize is that to the vast majority of Cubans Castro nothing less than a divine entity that rescued them from american mobsters and a corrupt dictator some 50 years ago. And they have the symbolism to prove it too.

A great many Cubans still recall with awe what happened during Castro's inauguration. The Cuban people were long ago converted to Catholicism and its practices still resonate throughout the Cuban culture. Hence the visit by the past Pope.

Near the end of the inauguration dozens of doves where released into the sky to celebrate this auspicious occassion. But one of the doves did not fly 'up to the heavens' like the others, choosing instead to wheel back and land on the right shoulder of Castro himself.

To the Catholic majority in Cuba this was no less a miracle than if the Virgin Mary herself had appeared and placed her hand on Castro's shoulder. This is but one of the many reasons that, to this very day, the vast majority of Cuban people still revere him as their leader.

What Western leader, or for that matter, what leader of an nation on this planet, can make that claim? What leader anywhere has this sort of approval rating?

Who can argue the incredible successes of his literacy and health care campaigns? What other world leader has been able to so consistently resist the petulant wrath of American oppression and poltiical interference?

In fact, there are far fewer dissenters in Cuba [pop. 10 mill] per capital than in either Canada or the U.S. or pratcially any nation in the world.

Sure there are problems in the country. Where are there not? I for one would unhesitatingly vote Castro as the greatest social minded leader of the 20th and - so far - the 21st century.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 11 March 2006 03:31 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
To the Catholic majority in Cuba this was no less a miracle than if the Virgin Mary herself had appeared and placed her hand on Castro's shoulder. This is but one of the many reasons that, to this very day, the vast majority of Cuban people still revere him as their leader.
I daresay Castro has remained popular for reasons other than just religious superstition. And he has never tried to use religion or that incident in particular to glorify himself.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 11 March 2006 06:13 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Still, it didn't hurt.
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Mr. Magoo
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posted 11 March 2006 06:13 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In fact, there are far fewer dissenters in Cuba [pop. 10 mill] per capital than in either Canada or the U.S. or pratcially any nation in the world.

Despite the government so actively encouraging criticism.


From: ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 March 2006 04:24 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

Oh, it was certainly a deliberate provocation. But, then, most political speech probably is.


Sven, your article only says that "the top Cuban official at the game at Hiram Bithorn Stadium in San Juan rushed to confront the man."

Cuban government officials are not allowed to "confront" people? Talk to them? Express there views?

It is not as if anyone was beaten.

Now, here is a little bit of an experriment for you to try: Go to a Blue Jays game, and take a sign saying "Down with Bush." Five to one you are removed from the ballpark by security.

Sports events are not the place for political expression they will tell you. They will tell you that it is not what you are saying that is important, but that you are disturbing the other fans (sone of whom will no doubt complain) and they will remove you because you are causing a disturbance.

Just try it.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
C.Morgan
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posted 12 March 2006 11:24 AM      Profile for C.Morgan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On the bright side of this, the article showed a link to this site Cuba

I much prefer hearing from people who have risked their lives to leave oppressive communist dictatorships than glazed eyed ivory tower idealists who went on a vacation in Cuba and determined it to be a paradise on earth.

Of course all those people who pile themselves on rafts and try to cross shark infested waters in order to escape Cuba are deluded.

Why is it essential in a communist country that the free emmigration of it's citizens must be halted?

I take the word of people who lived in such misery over those who live in developed countries and are blinded by some romanticized ideal that the failed and brutal system of communism holds any merit.


From: Calgary | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 12 March 2006 12:00 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One would have thought that since the Munich massacre the world had learned to separate sports from politics. Don't you agree, Sven?

Then, as Cueball mentioned, had the sign read "Down with Bush", would the "free speech" rhetoric be spewed or defended, especially by the Police chief ? I think not.

A provocative, misplaced, mean act that should cost the perpetrator to be banned from all sports events.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
C.Morgan
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posted 12 March 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for C.Morgan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So let me get this straight.

Holding up a two word sign makes a person responsible for anarchy at a sporting event.

Publishing a cartoon done in poor taste causes people to riot and burn buildings.

Could you imagine if the man at the sporting event held up a cartoon rather than a text sign?

How far are we going to go in limitting free speech in order to appease the hypersensitive and the violent?


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white rabbit
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posted 12 March 2006 12:18 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:


Sports events are not the place for political expression they will tell you. They will tell you that it is not what you are saying that is important, but that you are disturbing the other fans (sone of whom will no doubt complain) and they will remove you because you are causing a disturbance.

Just try it.


Do you think the same would happen if the message was on a t-shirt?

Interesting about the "causing a disturbance" thing. If a person held up a sign peacefully, and a couple of people shouted at him, who is actually "causing" the disturbance? The guy holding up the sign peacefully, or those who are reacting to it?


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 12 March 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How far are we going to go in limiting free speech in order to appease the hypersensitive and the violent?

As long as we live in the real world. With people who have feelings, emotions and affects and with religious fanatics, free speech fanatics and violence fanatics.

[ 12 March 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
C.Morgan
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posted 12 March 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for C.Morgan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sidra:

As long as we live in the real world. With people who have feelings, emotions and affects and with religious fanatics, free speech fanatics and violence fanatics.

[ 12 March 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]


So as another person here contended, the Christians who found offense with such things as the "Piss Christ" and cartoons in Saskatchewan should have rioted and burned things.

Then they would qualify for those who need to be protected by limits on free speech.


From: Calgary | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 12 March 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I happen to believe it should be permissible for a ball fan in Puerto Rico to take a sign to a ball game saying "Down with Fidel" or for a ball fan to take a "Down with Bush" sign to a Blue Jays game.

Evidently others, like sidra, think that both forms of free speech ought to be suppressed, out of concern for people's "feelings" and "emotions".

Sorry, but that way lies fascism.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 March 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by C.Morgan:

I much prefer hearing from people who have risked their lives to leave oppressive communist dictatorships than glazed eyed ivory tower idealists who went on a vacation in Cuba and determined it to be a paradise on earth.

Yep, there are all kinds of upstanding Cuban expats in Miami selling drugs and organizing terrorist attacks on Cuba and plotting to hijack Cuban passenger jets.

Unlike the American people, C. Morgan, you own the personal freedom to travel to Cuba and see for yourself. Then travel to Honduras and Guatemala and compare experiences. But I doubt you will take yourself up on this offer because I suspect your mouth is bigger than your brain. Go to hell.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 12 March 2006 05:07 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
...C. Morgan, you own the personal freedom to travel to Cuba and see for yourself. Then travel to Honduras and Guatemala and compare experiences...

Or better yet, travel to Canada and compare experiences. Try holding up a "Down with Jack" sign at a CAW rally. Then you will see the true wisdom of the Cuban system.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 12 March 2006 05:50 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's a proper place for people to spout off their political ideology in public ... they're called "free speech zones"! God bless America.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 12 March 2006 06:13 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Evidently others, like sidra, think that both forms of free speech ought to be suppressed, out of concern for people's "feelings" and "emotions".

Sorry, but that way lies fascism.
M.Spector


Regarding the stadium event, I had written that we hoped that we learned from the Munich massacre that sports and politics should not be mixed.

Regarding whatever one can say or write is "free speech", I beg to differ. Fascism ? Is this what you think of the Austrian court's three year prison sentence to British citizen David Irving for violating a law against Holocaust denial ?

[ 12 March 2006: Message edited by: sidra ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 12 March 2006 07:08 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sidra:
Regarding the stadium event, I had written that we hoped that we learned from the Munich massacre that sports and politics should not be mixed.
Dream on. That ship sailed years ago.
quote:
Regarding whatever one can say or write is "free speech", I beg to differ. Fascism ? Is this what you think of the Austrian court's three year prison sentence to British citizen David Irving for violating a law against Holocaust denial?
I don't believe in passing repressive laws that punish people for saying things that hurt the feelings of other people. I reserve the right to offend the sensibilities of others by saying or writing things they don't want to hear or read.

It's called freedom of speech, and it means nothing unless it protects the expression of things that others don't want to be expressed.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 12 March 2006 07:39 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't believe in passing repressive laws that punish people for saying things that hurt the feelings of other people. I reserve the right to offend the sensibilities of others by saying or writing things they don't want to hear or read.
It's called freedom of speech, and it means nothing unless it protects the expression of things that others don't want to be expressed. M.Spector

I already knew this position through your previous writings (above in this thread). You are repeating the obvious.

You are of course free to provide a direct answer or to skate around, M.Spector. What I asked is: Do you consider the sentence meted out to Irving as fascist act ? Do you have one standard for Sidra (your statement "Here lies fascsim) and another for the power that be (skating around the question) ?


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 12 March 2006 08:29 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't really understand why you are so interested in interviewing me about my opinions. Most other people would prefer I kept them to myself.

Nevertheless, if you insist, I will tell you that I do not consider the sentence meted out to Irving to be a "fascist act". Austria is not a fascist country at the present time. Canada has laws that proscribe something called "hate speech", but Canada is not a fascist country. I do not agree with such laws, but that doesn't make them, or the sentences handed out under them, fascist acts.

I did not say "here lies fascism", despite your use of quotation marks. I said "that way lies fascism," referring to the result at the end of the road if your hostility to free speech were to be applied on a consistent basis by any particular society.

Thank you for your interest.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 12 March 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Interesting about the "causing a disturbance" thing. If a person held up a sign peacefully, and a couple of people shouted at him, who is actually "causing" the disturbance? The guy holding up the sign peacefully, or those who are reacting to it?

Right on WW. Is it possible that humans could ever become responsible for their own emotional outbursts? Or should we always live in fear of such outbursts regardless of what freedoms are sacrificed? Of course, we have always been free to be fearful.

The one that really offends me the most is our war veterans who are barred from voicing anti-war or peace sentiments at war Memorial events. If our veterans have not earned the right to speak out on the subject of war there sure as hell isn't anyone else who has.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
rici
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posted 12 March 2006 08:46 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
I don't really understand why you are so interested in interviewing me about my opinions. Most other people would prefer I kept them to myself.

Not I. I find your opinions interesting. This particular one is one which I share.

I don't think Irving should be in jail, any more than I think creationists should be in jail. But in both cases, I would doubt the sanity of a school board which approved their books as primary texts in a classroom.


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 March 2006 11:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 13 March 2006 12:03 AM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I did not say "here lies fascism", despite your use of quotation marks. I said "that way lies fascism," referring to the result at the end of the road if your hostility to free speech were to be applied on a consistent basis by any particular society.

Thank you for your interest.


I apologize for misquoting you.

Thank you for your answer, though I still do not understand your inconsistency in qualifying my view with one standard and the sentence of the Austrian court with another.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 12:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

Do you think the same would happen if the message was on a t-shirt?

Interesting about the "causing a disturbance" thing. If a person held up a sign peacefully, and a couple of people shouted at him, who is actually "causing" the disturbance? The guy holding up the sign peacefully, or those who are reacting to it?


I am relatively certain, that since GWB is considered to be a respectable person, and that a baseball game a public event, that it would be the one displaying the placard who would be evicted.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bonner
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posted 13 March 2006 12:16 AM      Profile for Bonner        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good post Fidel. Will you be expecting a knock on the door? An Official in your face?

Hmmmnnnh. I don't think I'd try "Down with Fidel", in Cuba.

Though I hear the medical care in Cuba's prisons is first rate. Low infant mortality too.


From: Haven Hotel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 12:22 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sidra:
Regarding the stadium event, I had written that we hoped that we learned from the Munich massacre that sports and politics should not be mixed.

There is no comparison between wearing a t-shirt or sporting a sign that says, for example, "Down with Bush!!" or "Down with Fidel!!" and massacring several athletes for a political cause. It’s not even in the same ballpark, as it were.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 13 March 2006 12:23 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by sidra:
...I still do not understand your inconsistency in qualifying my view with one standard and the sentence of the Austrian court with another.
It's the same standard.

Austria could well become a fascist state again. One of the signs of that happening would be if they took your advice and started sending "free speech fanatics" to prison for offending the "feelings" and "emotions" of others.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 12:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

There is no comparison between wearing a t-shirt or sporting a sign that says, for example, "Down with Bush!!" or "Down with Fidel!!" and massacring several athletes for a political cause. It’s not even in the same ballpark, as it were.


Your ability to state the obvious is remerkable.

But did the Cuban official assault anyone, here in this event which you posted the article about, are you infering that the Cuban official objecting to the sign and speaking with the protestor was a criminal act on the level of "massacring several athletes for a political cause."

It seems to me that you are objecting to the Cuban official exercising his right to freedom of speech, and not only that he was apparently detained by the police for doing so. And you are defending this?

I see that no assualt charges have been laid so we can assume that Cuban official did little more that speak to the person in a loud voice.

What I want to know is why the police intervened and detained the Cuban official for excersing his right to freedom of speech.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 12:32 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
really folks, I don't see how this is an issue of "free speech" ... a private business (the ball park) has every right to refuse to put up with any kind of speech it doesn't want to put up with ... there are political rallies in Canada where people holding up signs against the person for whom the rally is held are escorted out of the building. No one argues this as a matter of free speech ... if the protesters are doing their protesting in a public area and are arrested for their protest, then that's a matter of free speech.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 12:33 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Austria could well become a fascist state again. One of the signs of that happening would be if they took your advice and started sending "free speech fanatics" to prison for offending the "feelings" and "emotions" of others.

Why do you think Austria could well become a fascist state again? Are their elections trending that way? I don't follow Austrian politics too closely so I would be interested to know.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 12:35 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
really folks, I don't see how this is an issue of "free speech" ... a private business (the ball park) has every right to refuse to put up with any kind of speech it doesn't want to put up with ...

That's absolutely correct.

I think what's interesting is the Cubans getting all riled up with the speech in the first place.

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 12:39 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not like a USian would ever get riled up if someone insulted their pig shit leader.
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 12:43 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Not like a USian would ever get riled up if someone insulted their pig shit leader.

He's attacked verbally and graphically daily (hourly? continuously?) all over the world. I'm not aware of anyone getting "riled up" about that free political expression. And, certainly not to the degree that Cuba monitors and bans free speech.

What's your point?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 13 March 2006 12:45 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bonner:
Hmmmnnnh. I don't think I'd try "Down with Fidel", in Cuba.
You might also want to avoid displaying in the United States of Amerikka an anti-war t-shirt or a pro-peace t-shirtor an anti-Bush bumper sticker.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 12:56 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
You might also want to avoid displaying in the United States of Amerikka an anti-war t-shirt or a pro-peace t-shirtor an anti-Bush bumper sticker.

As the CNN story says about the t-shirt, “House rules bar demonstrations in the galleries.” Doesn’t matter what is being protested. People here anti-Bush and anti-war t-shirts here all of the time. It’s not an issue.

With regard to the pro-peace t-shirt, I’ve got a couple of comments. First, the mall’s stupid, from a public-relations perspective alone to do something like that. Second, if the court determines that the mall is a “public space”, the t-shirt wearer will (and should) win. If the court rules that it is not a “public space” but private property, the mall can limit whatever speech it wants on its property.

I see anti-Bush bumper stickers daily here in the Twin Cities. The bumper sticker incident you linked to was regarding a private event. Again, they were probably stupid to get up up-tight about that, but so it is.

So, those three incidents really don’t paint an accurate picture of the freedom people have here to dissent and protest.

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bonner
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posted 13 March 2006 12:59 AM      Profile for Bonner        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
M. Spector:

Did any of those people go to jail?

José Orlando González Bridon, leader of the Confederation of Democratic Workers of Cuba, an unofficial union, was sentenced to two years of imprisonment in May for "spreading false news." The charges stemmed from an article he published on an Internet site in August 2000 that criticized local police for negligence in the death of another labor rights activist. In November 2000, shortly before he was detained, González Bridon took part in a protest rally in which he and other dissidents chanted "Down with Fidel!" as they symbolically buried the Cuban constitution and penal code in small coffins. Prosecutors had originally requested a seven-year sentence for González Bridon. Although they reduced their petition to one year, the trial court added a year to the sentence after finding him guilty. Later, on appeal, the sentence was cut back to a year. González Bridon was released on conditional liberty on November 22, three weeks before the expiration of his sentence. (Cuban law allows for conditional liberty contingent on good behavior after half of a prisoner's sentence has been served.)

quote:
Another person who left prison slightly early was Julia Cecilia Delgado, released on October 19. Delgado, an independent librarian and president of a nongovernmental group, had been serving a one-year sentence for "disrespect." Delgado was one of about two hundred people who were detained in early December 2000, in a wave of arrests probably meant to discourage public gatherings on December 10, International Human Rights Day. Pro-democracy activist Angel Moya Acosta, prosecuted at the same time, was believed to be finishing his one-year sentence in December.

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Bonner ]


From: Haven Hotel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 01:00 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

He's attacked verbally and graphically daily (hourly? continuously?) all over the world. I'm not aware of anyone getting "riled up" about that free political expression. And, certainly not to the degree that Cuba monitors and bans free speech.

What's your point?


"free speech zones" mean anything to you?
Sure the USA has "free speech", just as long as it's not done somewhere people might actually hear it.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 01:05 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

"free speech zones" mean anything to you?
Sure the USA has "free speech", just as long as it's not done somewhere people might actually hear it.


What's silly is your comparison of the USA with Cuba. Cuba doesn't even have "free speech zones".


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Bonner
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posted 13 March 2006 01:07 AM      Profile for Bonner        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"free speech zones" mean anything to you?
Sure the USA has "free speech", just as long as it's not done somewhere people might actually hear it.

Ha ha. It's all over no yards. If there is a more fatuous commentator than you around, no yards, they are deserving of a prize . No? I guess you will accept it yourself. Don't be modest.


From: Haven Hotel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 01:42 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

What's silly is your comparison of the USA with Cuba. Cuba doesn't even have "free speech zones".


Yeah, that's the way to spin it ... let's pretend "free speech zones" actually mean your country has "free speech".

quote:
Bonner said:

Ha ha. It's all over no yards. If there is a more fatuous commentator than you around, no yards, they are deserving of a prize . No? I guess you will accept it yourself. Don't be modest.


Thanks for the nomination ... it means a lot coming from an expert in the field such as yourself.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 01:58 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Yeah, that's the way to spin it ... let's pretend "free speech zones" actually mean your country has "free speech".

Let me ask you a quick question: Is the right of free speech in the USA closer to that found in Canada or Cuba?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 13 March 2006 02:06 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bonner:
Did any of those people go to jail?
None of those people was actively working for the overthrow of the government of the United States, so no, they didn't go to jail.

But their right of free speech was denied. Evidently that doesn't bother you.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 02:36 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

Let me ask you a quick question: Is the right of free speech in the USA closer to that found in Canada or Cuba?


Let's see ... that would depend where you are practising your "free speech" ... if you practise it in the "free speech zone", then it is closer to Canada, in that nothing will happen to you, although you won't be heard by your intended target ... if you attempt to practise it outside of the "free speech zone" you end up in jail, so in that case it is closer to Cuba.

You see, in Canada, we can protest in an area where our PM is likely to see us protest ... quaint and outdated I know, but we like tradition up here ... hell, the Queen is still the head of state in this country.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 March 2006 02:44 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

Let me ask you a quick question: Is the right of free speech in the USA closer to that found in Canada or Cuba?


Yep, free speech doesn't mean a whole lot in the States unless you pay for it. It's why a moron and some rich people spent the Republican party war chest on TV ads to appeal to and instill fear in the minds of American voters. The more money the rich have in the U.S. the freer they are at the expense of the many.

How free are the two million African-American's who can't vote in that country's elections?. In Cuba and about 80 other countries, everyone has the basic human right to vote in elections, except in the U.S.A.

And while we're at it, how free is the largest incarcerated population in the world ?. The USA warehouses more poor people in private-public gulags than any other country on earth!. The U.S.S.A. imprisons black people at six times the rate of the most overtly racist nation in the last century - South Africa. Freedom in the U.S.A. is an illusion, Sven.

Uncle Sam's infant mortality rate is tantamount to planned and enforced infanticide in a first world nation. Where are the rights of all those American's whose right to be born is cancelled by for-profit, free market health care ?. They haven't even said their first words yet, fcs.

And tell Uncle Sam to stop torturing people and get the hell out of Guantanamo and Iraq. Then we'll take you seriously in a discussion about freedom of any kind.

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 02:45 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Let's see ... that would depend where you are practising your "free speech" ... if you practise it in the "free speech zone", then it is closer to Canada, in that nothing will happen to you, although you won't be heard by your intended target ... if you attempt to practise it outside of the "free speech zone" you end up in jail, so in that case it is closer to Cuba.

You see, in Canada, we can protest in an area where our PM is likely to see us protest ... quaint and outdated I know, but we like tradition up here ... hell, the Queen is still the head of state in this country.


No Yards, have you ever been to the US before? Or, do you get your images strictly from TV? I've spent a lot of time in Canada and the countries are a lot closer than you might like to admit.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 02:52 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fidel, you win a gold star for sneaking in "infant mortality" into that last post.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 March 2006 02:58 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nobel prize winner, 110 British MPs demand liberation of the Cuban Five

quote:
Nobel prize winner, Harold Pinter, 110 MPs, Ken Livingstone, Mayor of London and 15 trade union General Secretaries are among 10 000 British names on an open letter sent by the UK Cuba Solidarity Campaign to the US Attorney General calling for the immediate release of the Cuban Five.

These signatures join other 10 Nobel Prize Winners and more than 5 000 intellectuals, Amnesty International and the US National Council of the Churches of Christ, who also claimed about the Five.

Rob Miller, Director of the CSC said: “The fact that 110 MPs have already signed this letter in such a short space of time is a testament to the strength of injustice felt throughout Britain about this case.”

An Early Motion in support of the Cuban Five introduced in the House of Commons in 2002 was signed by 112 MPs, including Robin Cook, the former UK Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House of Commons.


American gulags for torture at Guantanamo are the biggest threat to human rights on the island of Cuba.

Viva la revolucion!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 03:07 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Viva la revolucion!

"But what have the Romans ever done for us?!"

--John Cleese character in "The Life of Brian"


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 March 2006 03:09 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Fidel, you win a gold star for sneaking in "infant mortality" into that last post.


We can be sure that if free market health care was producing positive results other than over-bloated CEO salaries, big business would never let us hear the last of it.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 March 2006 03:13 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

"But what have the Romans ever done for us?!"

--John Cleese character in "The Life of Brian"


Slavery and circus maximus are out of style in the U.S. and Italy, Sven. Not counting hockey or football.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 03:37 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

"But what have the Romans ever done for us?!"

--John Cleese character in "The Life of Brian"


You still haven't explained why the Cuban official at the game was detained by police.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 10:02 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

No Yards, have you ever been to the US before? Or, do you get your images strictly from TV? I've spent a lot of time in Canada and the countries are a lot closer than you might like to admit.


Yeah, sure, we are exactly the same, except for all the things being mentioned here, but which you don't seem to want to hear.

So yes, discounting all the differences we are exactly the same.

And yes, ignoring all the similarities of US and Cuban restrictions on free speech, the USA is completely different

What next? Are you going to demand that I ask questions with out using the words "who, what where, when, why, how, or the "question mark"?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 13 March 2006 10:42 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
And yes, ignoring all the similarities of US and Cuban restrictions on free speech, the USA is completely different

If you are convinced that free speech in the USA is akin to the complete lack of it in Cuba, no amount of rational discussion will change that. Please continue living in your dream world.


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 10:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Mr. Freedom and Democracy! Please explain for me under what charge the Cuban official was detained under?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 10:45 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Puerto Rican police quickly intervened and took the Cuban official -- Angel Iglesias, vice president of Cuba's National Institute of Sports -- to a nearby police station where they lectured him about free speech.


Why?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 March 2006 10:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One guy holds up a sign that says something. Another guy goes to say something back to him.

One of them is detained. Why one and not the other?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 March 2006 12:04 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Clearly the first guy, the one with the sign, doesn't need any elementary introductions to the idea of free speech, while the guy trying to prevent him from displaying the sign could clearly use to be taken to school.

If it's any consolation, moving the entire event to Cuba would certainly get the turn-about you crave, with the "lecture" on speech possibly including some incarceration or a beating.


From: ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 13 March 2006 12:30 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why does this deserve so much attention when Cindy Sheehan's ejection at a Washington event for wearing a t-shirt warranted barely any?

Clearly what is an abuse of free speech is in the eye of the beholder ... or ideologue.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 13 March 2006 12:40 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The reactions are so dissimilar that it's almost like they happened in two different countries.
From: ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°`°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř,¸_¸,ř¤°°¤ř, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 01:03 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
The reactions are so dissimilar that it's almost like they happened in two different countries.

Two different countries? Yeah, sort of like how the Yukon and Canada are different countries.

Different reactions? Hardly.

When government officials get involved in restricting speech, as happened in both cases, then I think we have an issue.

The guy with the sign was exercising his free speech, the Cuban was exercising his right of free speech to express his opinion on the sign. The stadium was exercising their right of free speech and ownership to pick whatever side it felt like supporting ... the police though were not exercising any right at all in holding the Cuban to lecture him on "free speech". If they wanted to lecture the Cuban, then they could have taken off their uniforms and exercised their personal right of free speech as private citizens and made the point they wanted to make.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lailai
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posted 13 March 2006 10:11 PM      Profile for Lailai     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Words have always been mightier than the sword. That is why education is so important for people of all classes etc.
From: King City, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 13 March 2006 10:20 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
You see, in Canada, we can protest in an area where our PM is likely to see us protest ... quaint and outdated I know, but we like tradition up here ...
I can tell you haven't been on a demonstration for many years, if ever.

All organized protests against the PM are now routinely confined and diverted away from within half a kilometre of wherever he happens to be, by barricades and police in riot gear, so that he never is "likely" to see them.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 March 2006 10:34 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's for your own protection:

Actually, there still is a difference, the barricades may be up, and they sure do try to keep the PM away from large organized protests (rather than the other way around,) but the biggest difference is that a Canadian doesn't have to have their t-shits examined for political messages in order to stand on the side of the street on the PM's route, and if you happen to get through to within eyesight of the PM with a protest poster, you don't go to jail for exercising your free speech outside of a free speech zone.

And it's not all just about protesting the PM vs the President ... the president doesn't have to be in the saem country, let alone the same city in order to be forced to protest in "free speech zones" ... the protest doesn't even have to be about against the President.

[ 13 March 2006: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 March 2006 12:37 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
If it's any consolation, moving the entire event to Cuba would certainly get the turn-about you crave, with the "lecture" on speech possibly including some incarceration or a beating.

It's possible I suppose, but I think you'd have a lot more to fear from cops in say Guatemala or Belize or Haiti or Honduras or even Houston, Texas, just a few days drive from the Central American holiday getaways along the Pan-Am Highway. Amnesty says some of the jails in Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras have children comingled with adults and held without being charged of a real crime for months on end. By all means, don't buy any grass while you're tooling around down there. Hephaestion posted a story recently about Guatemela's 'feminicide' and complicity of the cops in that banana republic. Really Magoo, you should go to Guantanamo and ask to see the children they have locked at "X-Ray" or the gulag for torture that has no name. Double-dare you to stroll up to the gates at Gitmo in sandals and raybans and ask to use the facilities.

quote:
Anti-Bush Protester Sues Houston Cops
A man arrested in downtown Houston last year for carrying a sign criticizing President Bush filed a federal lawsuit Wednesday, accusing police of violating his free-speech rights.

Chris Kelly, 43, is suing officer David Weaver, 37, 10 unidentified officers and an unidentified supervisor for arresting him and issuing a misdemeanor citation listing his offense as "Carrying a poster bearing the legend 'No more Bush-it.' "

Kelly, who said he was a salesman before becoming disabled, said Wednesday that he was surprised the officers appeared unaware of the constitutional right to free speech.

"I thought that police officers would be the first ones instructed on understanding that this is one of the gifts our country gives us," he said.


So there we have it - apparently it's legal to protest Fidel in the U.S., but they've got to cough-up money and fight for the right to protest the head chickenhawk and war criminal.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 16 March 2006 02:09 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow. I've just come home from a flight from Havana. Turned on the computer to read some babble before turning in and see the same sad people predictably siding with the Bushies whenever Cuba is mentioned.

I'm too tired to debate much right now but I have to say that of all the postings its clear who have seen the real Cuba are not the ones portraying it as some island prison versus the "free" US.

As Fidel wisely said, maybe if some of you armchair capitalists actually travelled and met with real people in other countries you would see what misery exists in more "free" societies like Mexico, Jamaica, India, Honduras, etc.

Of all my visits to Cuba, I have to say that I have never seen such strong support for the Revolution and their belief that they really are making an alternate to a failing capitalist system. One just has to look at their neighbours in Latin America to see that they are increasingly voting for the Cuban "prison" model over the American "free" slavery one.

How depressing to come back and find our society still locked in the same battle over our need to change to a kinder boss instead of a fundamental shift in getting rid of our corporate bosses altogether. Now that would be truly revolutionary!

Hasta la victoria siempre.


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 17 March 2006 03:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes worker, why jump off the bandwagon against Cuba?. We can be sure that something is rotten about multi-party democracy not so far from Cuba and around Central America.

Viva la revolucion!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
a lonely worker
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9893

posted 18 March 2006 01:43 AM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Fidel, this thread has grown pretty quiet.

Who knows, maybe they took your advice and actually went to see for themselves what a "free" Honduras or Columbia looks like and how happy their oppressed poor people really are. I hope they didn't walk alone in the slums.

In the meantime I encourage everyone else to go to Cuba. Leave the beach resort, check out the universities and actually meet the real people.

It really is the most amazing place when one compares it to it's "free"quently supressed neighbours.

Besides, I couldn't think of a country more deserving of our support for their dedicated struggle against imperialism (I wish we had more people in Canada with their courage to do this as well).


From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged

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