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Author Topic: Woman may win Indy 500
James
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posted 29 May 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
23 yr. old Danica Patrick is leading the Indiannapolis 500 with less than 20 laps remaining. Would certainly be a milestone if she hangs on.

The annoncer has a disconcerting turn of phrase, however. He keeps saying " Can she turn the trick ?"

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: audra trower williams ]


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 29 May 2005 05:14 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, she was short on fuel, so ended up 4th. But an exceelent accomplishment for a rookie.
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Américain Égalitaire
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posted 29 May 2005 05:37 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Indeed! Way to go Danica!
From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 29 May 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This running of the Indy had more drama than usual - a fun ride.

I liked how Danica refused to get into the "Ain't it neat a girl can drive?" game in the post-race interviews. She referred to the car, to the great crew team, and talked about a couple of mistakes she made (I think she probably should have been penalized for getting into another car and leading to a potentially massive wreck).

Overall, though, great race.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 30 May 2005 02:48 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's a horrible, yet valid, point one of the drivers made before the race. And I could be walking into a fire here, knowing rabble.

One of the drivers said that Dianica Patrick had an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE, because she weighs only 105 pounds (show me another driver who is). Now, all you ex-physics 12 student out there will realize that if you have less weight in your car, you will require less friction force to make a tighter turn, and therefore, you will be able to corner at a significantly higher speed. At first I thought he was just being an ass, but then I saw the race...

Dianica starts midway down the field
Moves into first 150 (?) laps into the race
Pits, stalls, drops to 16th
moves up two 7th, spins out, damages her car, drops back to 10th in the yellow flag.
Moves back up to first as the rest of the racers pit (Dianica refueled earlier)
Dianica loses the lead as she runs out of fuel
She places 4th.

There is no doubt that Dianica is a skilled world-class driver that is very capable of winning the Indy 500. But she was blitzing the field in lap traffic thoughout the race. I wonder how she would have done if she had 150-180 lbs in her cockpit, like every other driver.......


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 30 May 2005 02:51 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting idea, but what's that in percentage difference in mass, overall? If it's only a few percent, I don't think it would account for much free friction.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 30 May 2005 02:52 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So maybe (small) women are better suited for race car driving. So what? Are you saying that men wouldn't take and use every advantage they could get as well?

If it were greater body mass that was needed, people would be arguing the reverse, I'm sure.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 30 May 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe men shouldn't be allowed to play basketball 'cause we're too big.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 30 May 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Being somewhat of a student of racing, the driver who made a fuss about it does have a point, but it isn't about friction. It a funtion of the weight differential itself. And it's fat from trivial. During the running of the Eurpean Grand Prix in the early morning hours yesterday, it was stated that every extrra gallon of gasoline on board (6 pounds) would increas a car's lap time by an average on 1/10 second.

Now, in the Indy series I expect the effect would less significant because the cars themself are bigger and heavier, and there is much less acceleration, braking and tight cornering going on. But still, they are pulling about 4 lateral G's in two of the corners. So, her "hundred pounds less" equate to 400 pounds worth of increased cornering grip, and thus enable either a tighter line or faster midcorner speed.

The rules should be changed to wiegh the cars with drivers.


From: Windsor; ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 30 May 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by James:

The rules should be changed to wiegh the cars with drivers.

To complete the sentence

"now that women are competing."

Do you see the problem here?


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
James
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posted 30 May 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by arborman:

To complete the sentence

"now that women are competing."

Do you see the problem here?


No, because I don't think the "completion" is a given. Other, more credible racing series, such as Formula 1 use the "driver included" standard and I don't think that any woman has ever driven F1.


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arborman
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posted 30 May 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Fair enough.

The driver's argument may be credible, but is she really the first racer to enter that weighed less than average? Why now, and not 5 years ago?


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reverend Blair
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posted 30 May 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The weight issue isn't really valid at all. There have always been big guys and little guys in racing. If you look at the entire history of the sport, the differences have always been there. There is nobody as big as AJ Foyt in the sport anymore, but he competed against other men that were 70 or 80 pounds lighter than he was.

Is it a real problem? Yeah, that's why other series weigh the cars with the drivers in them. Does it have anything to do with a woman entering the sport? No, there have been other women they just weren't so small. Has Robby Gordon got a well-earned reputation as a whiner? Yes.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 30 May 2005 05:45 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a great long response and some workmen in the house blew the electric breaker my computer is hooked up to and it was lost .
My point is essentially supporting arborman's point. Why now is weight an issue? Surely not every male racer is the same height and weight. Does Jacques Villeneuve weigh the same as what's his name Schroeder(?). What about body type , does someone with an extended arm lengh have an advantage? No matter what the physical proportion one still has to have the mental courage to take the corners at the high speeds necessary to win the race.
Car racing is something I don't really care to watch or participate in , god help me going that fast , there is no way I could do it. People are all wired differently though and if some love speed and thoughts of crushed metal and flesh then I don't think that gender should make a difference.
Male jockeys do everything to reduce their body weight before a race , why not male drivers? The criticism seems like a lot of whining just because a woman entered a traditional male role & did very well.

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Jimmy Brogan
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posted 30 May 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Other, more credible racing series, such as Formula 1

Traction control, launch control, automatic transmissions, and grooved tires do not make a series 'more credible'.


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James
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posted 30 May 2005 06:30 PM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyBrogan:

Traction control, launch control, automatic transmissions, and grooved tires do not make a series 'more credible'.


Oh, Mr. Brogan, we are so going to have to do this, but in a different thread.

[ 30 May 2005: Message edited by: James ]


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candle
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posted 30 May 2005 06:50 PM      Profile for candle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by James:

No, because I don't think the "completion" is a given. Other, more credible racing series, such as Formula 1 use the "driver included" standard and I don't think that any woman has ever driven F1.



Giovanna Amati raced for Brabham in the early 1990's. She never qualified for an actual race, however. There have been four other women who have qualified. Lella Lombardi managed to even score 1/2 point in the 1975 Spanish Grand Prix. The others were Divina Galica, Desire Wilson, and Maria Theresa de Fillipis.


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Reverend Blair
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posted 31 May 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My point is essentially supporting arborman's point. Why now is weight an issue?

Weight has always been an issue, and it's valid because it affects both speed and handling of the car. What isn't valid is singling Daneca out because she's a woman and therefore smaller than men. You have to keep in mind that the racing world isn't exactly open-minded though...the IRL came into existence largely because of Tony George's xenophobia.

That being said, I was cheering against her from the start. It had nothing to do with being a woman though, I had twenty bucks on a Penske car winning.


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James
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posted 31 May 2005 01:49 AM      Profile for James        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I too was urging her on throughout; hoping that she would win, half because she was a woman, half because her winning would discredit Tony George who I despise.

The weight thing ? as I've said before, it could provide a significant advantage, but that takes nothing away from Danica's obvious abilitites. And yes, Gordon is a notorious crybaby. But they can silence him and solve the problem by weighing wet, as most series do.


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Reverend Blair
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posted 31 May 2005 03:55 PM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I too was urging her on throughout; hoping that she would win, half because she was a woman, half because her winning would discredit Tony George who I despise.

Well, if you despise Tony George you must be genius...just like me.

Like I said, I bet on a Penske car winning (kind of a weird pool where you picked a car owner instead of a driver, but there's only six of us in it so...). Anyway, I was cheering against anybody not advertising Marlboros.

There is no doubting her talent though. She made a couple of rookie mistakes, but so what? That's why we call them rookie mistakes. She is better than any of the other women we've seen run at Indy, although she does have better equipment than any of them had. Her talent really showed when she rubbed wheels and didn't crash, and when she was in traffic.

I've never understood why there aren't more women in racing. It isn't a sport where brute strength matters and women can handle a car as or as poorly as a man. When you look at CART, the IRL, and F-1, being smaller is an advantage no matter how they weigh the cars because the cockpits are so tiny. There has been a trend towards smaller men for years now. You'd think that women in the sport would be common by now.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 May 2005 04:01 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are women being encouraged, or simply not being actively discouraged? Obviously, there's a difference. I suspect that Ms. Patrick's success will raise the chances that women will be considered more seriously by owners (since they're looking for winners, and if smaller drivers have an edge, sexism will be brushed aside in the pursuit of profits). Of course, the slack-jawed public will have to adjust.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy Shanks
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posted 31 May 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Tommy Shanks     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Reverend Blair said:
Like I said, I bet on a Penske car winning (kind of a weird pool where you picked a car owner instead of a driver, but there's only six of us in it so...). Anyway, I was cheering against anybody not advertising Marlboros.

Woow. Now that's a long shot. Penske never wins, ever. But I guess if one of your drivers can't win at Indy (no matter all his other accomplishments) I guess that evens things out.

quote:
James said:
because her winning would discredit Tony George who I despise

Huh? I can understand Sebastian Bourdais playing the role of discrediter, but wasn't the IRL crafted to give drivers like her a shot? American, go-kart and short-track backgrounds, although she has some additional experience in open wheel racing.

quote:
James wrote:
Other, more credible racing series, such as Formula 1

Haha. You mean the series that, before this year, has been dominated by one team to the point they decided among themselves who would win? And I've had more than one person suggest that you'll see a dramatic resurrection before the year is out that results in yet another championship.


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Reverend Blair
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posted 01 June 2005 01:58 AM      Profile for Reverend Blair   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are women being encouraged, or simply not being actively discouraged?

I don't follow the politics of it as closely as I used to, but my impression is that they are still being actively discouraged, just in more politically correct tones.

quote:
I suspect that Ms. Patrick's success will raise the chances that women will be considered more seriously by owners (since they're looking for winners, and if smaller drivers have an edge, sexism will be brushed aside in the pursuit of profits).

The danger there is that all the women will have to look like Danica. Racing is very much sponsor driven and there are already enough people in the sport for the wrong reasons. I'd hate to see women brought in because of their looks instead of their driving ability. Patrick is there because she can drive, but her looks and the nature of the sport (or the money that pays the bills) could drag in Kelly Bundy clones too.

quote:
Of course, the slack-jawed public will have to adjust.

You do realize that the average IRL fan communicates by farting and dreams of marrying his cousin while voting for George Bush, right? That used to be the territory of NASCAR, but Tony George managed to gut the brains out of open-wheeled racing.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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