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Author Topic: Sicko
clockwork
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posted 01 July 2007 10:41 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So first half, so good. Moore's public policy indictment is pretty much on target. And it's easy to buy his thesis that it persists because of the massive political contributions by insurance and drug companies.
...
The U.S. system differs for a lot of reasons, and the insurance industry is only one of them.

SIcko critique in Slate

For the uninitiated, I have a love/hate relationship with Moore.

I thought this movie went more back to his Roger and Me roots (powerfully critical social commentary through examples) but also doubled up on the propaganda theme readily apparent in the movies he did that I didn't like (F9/11).

I almost cried at this movie. I also would like to think I can critique the Slate critique intelligently (harhar). But I start this thread because I liked the movie and I didn't like the propaganda and in rebutting the propaganda, I link the Slate article for a start.

edit: The health care aspect almost seems tangential to his main point (which I almost agree with) that the US system of government is fubared.

[ 01 July 2007: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 03 July 2007 02:09 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm a big fan of Moore going all the way back to Roger and Me, TV Nation, etc.

Sicko is one of his most effective works. In recent speeches, Moore has been pretty much channeling Tommy Douglas!

I never quite understood Michael Moore haters. Many of whom that describe themselves as Liberals have made it a personal mission to take down this unique rabble-rousing filmmaker who has done more than any one singular individual to popularize documentary films in the contemporary era.

Canadians that hate him strike me as either neo-conservatives who hate his adulation of a particularly Just Society-flavoured Canada or "high-minded" society types who can stand his populist shtick or knit pick at his use of Canada as a positive example for the US.

In fact, I would go so far to say that Moore is one of our modern heroes whose stunts gladden the heart by taking down the rich and powerful as opposed to the other way around for most of our corporate media.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 03 July 2007 02:55 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I spoke with a man who had seen Sicko and he said there were standing ovations. I was told this is his most powerful work yet. I am definitely a fan and I will be seeing this one.

Ceti - agree with you 100 percent re: right wing haters.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
peacenik2
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posted 03 July 2007 05:15 PM      Profile for peacenik2        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I saw Sicko on the weekend - it's powerful!
His stuff just gets better (I really don't know why people nitpick his work so much) I too agree with ceti, I really can't think of any modern day figure, who has the potential (within a large audience) of cutting through the mind-numbing propaganda we're fed.

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Scott Piatkowski
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posted 03 July 2007 05:45 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
saskganesh
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posted 03 July 2007 06:27 PM      Profile for saskganesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
because he's a sloppy journalist and a creative film editor. because he doesn't usually encourage dialoque, only more polarization. and because he has a love affair with Canada, which is sweet and stuff, but it gets kinda embarassing when he gets his facts wrong.
From: regina | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 03 July 2007 06:51 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To answer that critique, he's a documentary filmmaker who seeks to entertain, not a "fair and balanced" reporter who rambles interminally like they do on PBS.

I'm not sure where he has been sloppy either. Check out any news program these days, and they're a lot worse. He is polemical, but that's his right, and that's what the US needs, not another dissembling weak-kneed Liberal who gets bulldozed as a matter of course on cable debate shows.

Granted, Fahrenheit 911 was not his best work, but still it was powerful enough to win at Cannes.

Check out TV Nation and Awful Truth on YouTube.

He's also great in front of a live audience.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 03 July 2007 11:58 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have a question...

Micheal Moore in Cuba, in front of the Cuban firefighters, differs significantly from the Soviet era propaganda film he showed because... ... ...

Like the Slate commentary I posted agrees with, his critique of the American health care system is bang on, whatever. Did anyone not notice that the Cuban firefighters were not at attention during the filming? Moore narrated that those firefighters were indeed at attention. Did anyone else not notice the whole Cuban thing seemed...maybe.... staged (like some Soviet propaganda film of yore)? Was that not a politically staged event, maybe? A tool of the regime in Cuba, one might arguably say?

Cuban doctors are exported to Venezuela for oil and a lot of the commentary I've read said that has a negative effect on the Cuban health care system.(arguable statement, yes)

Having said that, though, I was blown away by the Pataki comment he included in his film. Moore was trying to show that insurance companies do the utmost to disqualify a person from coverage and he quotes Pataki as saying "we will give relief if x, y, z, xx, yy, zz conditions are met", with stipulations in regards to the rescue workers that helped out at ground zero. To me, that was one of the most powerfully critical footage Moore could have shown. Pataki wasn't disqualifying 9/11 heros per se from the fund, as opposed to justifying that help to 9/11 heros is in the interest of his base that didn't want to spend a dime on those that helped save lives on 9/11.

I'm still pissed off at his outright call to revolution.


But that is me.

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 July 2007 12:18 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Cuban doctors are exported to Venezuela for oil and a lot of the commentary I've read said that has a negative effect on the Cuban health care system.(arguable statement, yes)

Cuba trains doctors for other countries as well. There are hundreds of U.S. medical students accepting six years of free medical training in Cuba each year. Most of those black and Hispanic American students can't afford to access the handful of mainly white medical colleges in America.

I don't think there was nearly a brainwashy-Orwellian pee-you steaming pile factor as, say, a Radio Free Europe broadcast into former communist countries, or a CIA-Radio Marti propaganda broadcast into Cuba today. They wouldn't have dared explain how tens of millions of Americans have been uninsured or underinsured and can't afford to see a doctor on a regular basis.

Moore was just telling the truth about the hypocrisy surrounding free market health care in the U.S., the most expensive medical system in the world delivering the worst national health statistics compared to 30 or so other countries with socialized medicine.

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 04 July 2007 05:40 AM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I speak to Cubans all the time, and can tell you that they all think it is harder to get a doctor's attention in Cuba now that so many doctors are "exported".

By and large, the exportation is a positive thing, though, because it brings doctors to areas far more underdeveloped in health care than is Cuba.


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Nanuq
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posted 04 July 2007 05:23 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Moore was just telling the truth about the hypocrisy surrounding free market health care in the U.S., the most expensive medical system in the world delivering the worst national health statistics compared to 30 or so other countries with socialized medicine.

Not all socialized health systems. In the same WHO report that Moore quotes in placing the US at Number 37, Cuba is placed at Number 39, Canada at 30, and the UK is at 18 (France is Number 1). Moore never mentions that. Moore was also kind of misleading over wait times which tend to be better in the US than in Canada. And the Cuba footage was pure propaganda since you can pretty much better that the average Cuban doesn't get that kind of red carpet treatment. Personally I'm more impressed with filmmakers who try to present a balanced picture rather than ones who distort the facts along political lines (and yes I'm including CNN and CBS there).


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 04 July 2007 08:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nanuq:

Not all socialized health systems. In the same WHO report that Moore quotes in placing the US at Number 37, Cuba is placed at Number 39, Canada at 30, and the UK is at 18 (France is Number 1).


I don't think the sick 9-11 workers who received medical attention in Cuba would rate the U.S. health system that high. Infant mortality rates in some parts of the U.S. are comparable with third world countries, especially among black Americans and ethnic minorities in general. Here's a sobering report from 2002:

“More die in for-profit hospitals, study says” Authors say bottom line means more than hiring talent

quote:
Hospital deaths would increase by as many as 2,200 a year if Canada introduced U.S.-style private for-profit hospitals into the health-care system, a new study suggests.

The results should send a sobering message to those advocating private-sector solutions for Canada's healthcare system, said lead author, Dr. Philip Devereaux, a cardiologist at McMaster University.

"(Alberta Premier) Ralph Klein has indicated at the last premiers' conference, that he did not think that the public cared who delivered their care as long as it remained government funded," he said.

"Our research suggests that in fact the public should care."


Looks like capitalism and health care don't mix well. Capitalism realy is the kiss of death.

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 04 July 2007 09:59 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nanuq wrote:

quote:
In the same WHO report that Moore quotes in placing the US at Number 37, Cuba is placed at Number 39, Canada at 30, and the UK is at 18 (France is Number 1). Moore never mentions that.

Hold on a second. I haven't seen the film yet, so I can't comment on Moore's take.

But I'm questioning what WHO report is being quoted, since the one I recently read says shows Cuba has better service, lower infant mortality, far more accessible medicines and many treatments than in the US.

World Health Organization's Health Systems Assessment in 2000

Cubans have to worry a bit less about this:

gouging the US patient.

I’m no apologist for the Cuban government or its overall economy. But credit must be given where it’s due.

quote:
Moore was also kind of misleading over wait times which tend to be better in the US than in Canada.

Again, I don't know what Moore says about this in the film. I have heard criticisms that he paints too much of a nice picture of the current state of Canada's health system.

Having said that, however, it is not accurate to say that wait times are better in the US than Canada.

First, that depends on what health insurance plan you are on. The general rule is, the more you pay, the less you wait—although even there the caveat is, especially with those odious HMO plans they have, you don’t get to pick the doctor and have no say in the treatment you get (if the HMO bosses decide you should even get treated).

Overall, according even to the corporate apologist mag Business Week, wait lists in the US are overall longer than here or in most other industrialized economies.

US wait lists longer than in most industrialized countries

Second, and more prophetically, for the almost 50 million people who have no health insurance, and additional 50+ million with inadequate health insurance, the wait list is pretty much close to infinite.

I don’t know what Moore says about these matters. But the fact that Cuba, an almost Third-World like country with a relatively tiny economy, provide the same or better health care than the biggest meanest “superpower” (that’s a laugh) on Earth is truly a telling fact about the US economic model.

The question is why. Here’s some possible reasons in the US:

Corporate Insurance Lobby Influence over Congress

The Pharmaceutical Industry

Report: US citizens pay more for health care and get less (than just about everybody else)

NAFTA's Bitter Pill

Even Costa Rica and Sri Lanka get a better deal than US

Bush Looks to weaken Union Health Plans to pay-off Insurance Lobby (even what workers get from the private sector is too good now).


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 05 July 2007 12:18 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steppenwolf Allende:
I don’t know what Moore says about these matters. But the fact that Cuba, an almost Third-World like country with a relatively tiny economy, provide the same or better health care than the biggest meanest “superpower” (that’s a laugh) on Earth is truly a telling fact about the US economic model.

I think what's remarkable about Cuba is that they have produced first world results with regard to literacy, health care, and medical research that Canadian and American scientists and academics have described as world class.

Embargo has cost Cuban economy $86 billion dollars in lost trade since 1960

Cuba leads in sustainable development WWF

quote:
UNESCO
Cuba - although one of the poorest countries in Latin America - shows the best results in basic education. And by a long shot. Scoring 350 points (around 90 per cent correct answers), Cuba is 100 points ahead of the regional average. Argentina, Chile and Brazil follow, with scores close to 250 points. The lowest results were in the Dominican Republic and Venezuela.

quote:

OAS Study:
[In 1956] Over two-thirds of wages were spent on food. In 1956, a family of 6 persons could spend only 17 cents per person on food. It is not surprising that malnutrition was widespread (60% in rural areas) and that the average weight of the agricultural worker was 16 lbs. below the theoretical average and that his height was less than the Cuban average...

Foreign observers agree on the progress made in lowering the incidence of malnutrition in Cuba. . . . malnutrition in Cuba has fallen from a pre-revolutionary level of 40% to a current level of less than 5%."...Source


UN official: Cuba has solved its energy crisis without sacrificing its environment

Achievements of the Revolution

[ 05 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 06 July 2007 02:01 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I saw it last night. I thought it was excellent.

One question. Is the French healthcare system really as great as it's portrayed by Moore?

And how does Britain's compare to Canada's in terms of quality?

ETA: I guess that makes two!

[ 06 July 2007: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


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Fidel
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posted 06 July 2007 03:25 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:

And how does Britain's compare to Canada's in terms of quality?

How did reforms for neo-Liberal Capitalism work in Pinochet's Chile ?. Britain's was a more robust economy than 1970's Chile, so the neo-Liberal voodoo did a lot of damage, but there weren't riots in the streets or nearly as much soup kitchen capitalism allowed to take place post-Maggie.

Death by a thousand cuts 2003

Warning over infant mortality gap 2006 Maggie what have you done?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 07 July 2007 01:11 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the progression is natural. From good (Canada), to better (UK), to the best (France), and then a completely shameful comparison to their mortal enemy (Cuba). With a study guide, what you may not hear in the movie, you can actually read up on.

There's a great site that brings together a full spectrum comparison: Perrspectives on US Health Care

As for the Cuba clip, that's actually the most moving part of the film for me. That a country that has been so vilified and besieged by the US for nearly five decades, could still provide quality health care for its people and for the people of the world.

Here's a useful antidote to progressive Cuba bashing which is really quite tiresome.


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 07 July 2007 01:39 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Why are so many progressives and liberals taken in by even the most outrageous falsehoods about Cuba? Why do they often accept uncritically the line of the Miami and Washington reactionaries about Cuba when they doubt almost everything else from these sources? Possibly some are tired of nay-saying all the conventional wisdoms. They do not want to appear “hard-line” or “ideological,” and rejecting Cuba is a cheap and easy way of being a little more mainstream

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 07 July 2007 02:52 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ceti:
I think the progression is natural. From good (Canada), to better (UK), to the best (France), and then a completely shameful comparison to their mortal enemy (Cuba). With a study guide, what you may not hear in the movie, you can actually read up on.

Is the British healthcare system superior to the Canadian?


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Max Bialystock
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posted 07 July 2007 02:58 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

How did reforms for neo-Liberal Capitalism work in Pinochet's Chile ?. Britain's was a more robust economy than 1970's Chile, so the neo-Liberal voodoo did a lot of damage, but there weren't riots in the streets or nearly as much soup kitchen capitalism allowed to take place post-Maggie.

Death by a thousand cuts 2003

Warning over infant mortality gap 2006 Maggie what have you done?


Thanks Fidel that is helpful


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 07 July 2007 11:24 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't believe Moses Han of Toronto is too high on Canada's health care system overall right now. If Moses were in Cuba, or had Moses lived in the former USSR, he would have had access to basic dentistry. This is the kind of bullshit that makes us realize capitalism does not work for too many people. "No more replastering, the structure is rotten." - Paris '68
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 16 July 2007 09:42 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moore tears CNN a new one over their factual inaccuracies and unwillingness to apologize. Then he tears CNN a new one for misleading the American public into the war in Iraq by cheerleading for Bush and blowing him kisses instead of asking the difficult questions. I love this guy.

quote:
Moore: I'm about to become your worst nightmare. 'Cause I ain't ever going away. Not until you set the record straight, and apologize to your viewers. ....

I won't waste your time rehashing your errors. You know what they are. What I want to do is help you come clean. Admit you were wrong. What is the shame in that? We all make mistakes. I know it's hard to admit it when you've screwed up, but it's also liberating and cathartic. It not only makes you a better person, it helps prevent you from screwing up again. Imagine how many people will be drawn to a network that says, "We made a mistake. We're human. We're sorry. We will make mistakes in the future -- but we will always correct them so that you know you can trust us." Now, how hard would that really be?


Moore gets annoyed ...

quote:
We are now going to start looking into the veracity of other reports you have aired on other topics. Nothing you say now can be believed. In 2002, the New York Times busted you for bringing celebrities on your shows and not telling your viewers they were paid spokespeople for the pharmaceutical companies. You promised never to do it again. But there you were, in 2005, talking to Joe Theismann, on air, as he pushed some drug company-sponsored website on prostate health. You said nothing about his affiliation with GlaxoSmithKline.

Clearly, no one is keeping you honest, so I guess I'm going to have to do that job, too. $1.5 billion is spent each year by the drug companies on ads on CNN and the other four networks. I'm sure that has nothing to do with any of this. After all, if someone gave me $1.5 billion, I have to admit, I might say a kind word or two about them. Who wouldn't?!


Isn't CNN the network that misrepresented the Iranian nuclear power program as a nuclear weapons program and had to apologize before being allowed back into Iran? Yup, that's the network.

quote:
Moore: P.S. If you also want to apologize for not doing your job at the start of the Iraq War, I'm sure most Americans would be very happy to accept your apology. You and the other networks were willing partners with Bush, flying flags all over the TV screens and never asking the hard questions that you should have asked. You might have prevented a war. You might have saved the lives of those 3,610 soldiers who are no longer with us. Instead, you blew air kisses at a commander in chief who clearly was making it all up. Millions of us knew that -- why didn't you? I think you did. And, in my opinion, that makes you responsible for this war.

Mikey rips 'em a new one. And then he does it again. Poor widdle CNN. Outnumbered by 1 guy.

[ 16 July 2007: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 17 July 2007 07:48 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:

Is the British healthcare system superior to the Canadian?


Some aspects are. Prescription drugs are totally covered in Britain, from what I'm told. Not so much in Canada.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 July 2007 08:45 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My mother went back to England a few years ago. While there she cracked her upper plate and was reduced to gumming it. By the end of the week she had a new set of false teeth, covered by Britain's national health.

Poor Moses Han of Toronto. All he needed was a bit of basic dentistry. He's blind now.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch. Dalton McGuilty and friends voted themselves a $42, 000 dollar pay raise effective immediately. And then they voted for an early summer vacation with all kinds of important issues put on the backburner. It's good to be a Liberal government member nowadays.

[ 17 July 2007: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 17 July 2007 09:09 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Some aspects are. Prescription drugs are totally covered in Britain, from what I'm told. Not so much in Canada.

Not at all in Canada, unless you're on social assistance or CPP.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 17 July 2007 05:42 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The his Hampton's best gambit for the election -- a Dental plan for catastrophic coverage. Goddamn it. Finally!
From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
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posted 17 July 2007 05:43 PM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sicko is free for Canadian nurses this week. Just bring your ID or Union card to the cinema.
From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 July 2007 08:48 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Saw Sicko today in Victoria. Outstanding. Moore has developed into a skillful film maker. Yes, I know, a lot of US film is simply mental chewing gum but, nevertheless, Sicko is put together really well and should be seen far and wide. Get thee to Sicko!
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 July 2007 02:45 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CNN throws in the towel and fesses up to their despicable "errors" ... Gotcha!

quote:
Moore: Until the last month or so, I have not appeared on a single national TV show for nearly 2 and 1/2 years. After the attacks I had to endure three years ago, from a media intent on questioning my patriotism because I dared to speak out against the war when none in the media would, I decided I had had enough and would simply concentrate on making my next film. I had no desire to participate in networks that were complicit in the war because of their refusal the challenge the commander in chief.

I have to admit, though, I do feel kinda bad taking it all out on Wolf Blitzer. It's not like he's the official representative of the mainstream media. I mean, he's from Buffalo, for crying out loud! He said to me at the end of the show last week to please come back on "anytime you want." I will take him up on that offer and appear again with him tomorrow (Wednesday). I'm not expecting a dozen roses or make-up sex -- I only want a promise that there will be no more distorted distractions so we can have a decent discussion about the REAL issues like why 18,000 Americans die every year because they don't have a health insurance card. More than 300 of them died this week.



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Michelle
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posted 18 July 2007 03:17 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, interesting. He'll be on tomorrow, huh?

What time is Blitzer's show on?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 18 July 2007 03:19 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think Moore meant today. I'm on holiday myself and can't tell one day of the week from the next.
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Michelle
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posted 18 July 2007 03:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What? But the article was dated today, and he said "tomorrow" in it.

Drat.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EddieSizzle
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posted 18 July 2007 06:52 PM      Profile for EddieSizzle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I saw the film a couple of days ago and really enjoyed it, but it was clearly flawed in some ways.

I think the best thing it did was illustrate how flawed the American health system is.

I think the worst thing it did was try and make Canada, England, France, and Cuba look like Utopias. For example, he made it look like Canadians don't wait more that 30 minutes at a hospital. Well, we know there's often ER overcrowding here, not to mention year-long waiting lists.

Another joke is when he says that he asked the Cuban doctors to give his people the exact same treatment that normal Cubans would get, "and they did." Does anyone believe that??

I think there was a really good review on this MTV (of all places!) website. It's a really good read.

Peace to all,
Ed.


From: Montreal | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 18 July 2007 08:39 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
EddieSizzle: I saw the film a couple of days ago and really enjoyed it, but it was clearly flawed in some ways.

It was clearly brilliant, touching, not overblown, and dealt with a substantial topic in a substantial way. Did we see the same movie?

quote:
E_S: I think the best thing it did was illustrate how flawed the American health system is.

The best thing it did was to deal with a substantial issue without boring the audience. The best thing it did was to expose the merciless and heartless nature of the American health "system" without painting the system(s) elsewhere as utopian or perfect. Mind you, in comparison to the US system, blood-letting as a medical technique would look more humane. The best thing it did was to address most or all of the likely concerns that an American audience might have by a fellow American in an American way. The best thing it did was to present the evidence, overwhelming as it was, and let the audience form their own conclusions - unlike the MSM that feeds Americans toxic baby food, calls it caviar, and makes the most perverse and sinister sorts of conclusions like supporting war, etc..

Moore's film ended and the audience burst out into spontaneous applause. I cannot remember the last time that happened for a film that I watched; I do, however, remember far too many films in which the audience booed amid yells and shouts for a refund. (e.g., Highlander II or III enraged the audience that I saw the film with and ended with angry boos, etc. )


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 July 2007 04:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moore on the Colbert Report. It's really funny, of course!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 24 July 2007 10:02 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Welcome to the United States of Big Pharma.

quote:
On July 11, 2007, the U.S. House of Representatives passed HR 2900, blocking debate on the law and preventing the introduction of any amendments that might have provided meaningful drug safety protections for consumers. This action demonstrates that the House of Representatives, much like the Senate, is utterly controlled by Big Pharma and has abandoned any responsibility to defend the interests of the voters. Drug companies now have complete control over the U.S. Congress, and through a campaign of intense lobbying and financial influence, they have managed to easily water down a law that once proposed to end the American monopoly on pharmaceuticals and ban advertising on new drugs.

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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Babbler # 5647

posted 03 August 2007 05:22 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The movie was interesting, but at no point did I notice Moore making an attempt to get the insurance companies' side of the story, as he did in regards to GM in Roger and Me.
From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 03 August 2007 05:32 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What could possibly be "their side" in denying so many people cancer treatments, and other critical care? Pretty sure the talk with the industry insiders was insight enough, along with the millions of uninsured and those who are turned down. It doesn't take a genious to know that for profit insurance is a shifty fucked up business Joel.

Jesus, now I've heard everything. Yes, it would have been as wonderful listening to the crooks from the insurance companies as it would be listening to the crooks who run big tobacco.

Please.

[ 03 August 2007: Message edited by: Stargazer ]


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 03 August 2007 05:34 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Joel_Goldenberg:
The movie was interesting, but at no point did I notice Moore making an attempt to get the insurance companies' side of the story, as he did in regards to GM in Roger and Me.

Yeah, 'cause gawd knows, we never hear their point of view on anything.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5647

posted 03 August 2007 05:54 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I seem to recall that in a trailer I saw for Sicko, there's a clip of corporate types walking down a hall and blocking the camera. This scene implies that there was an attempt to at least film the insurance company execs, but I did not see this same clip in the actual movie.

And there's nothing wrong with trying to get the other point of view - if they had refused to comment, Moore could have called the movie "The HMOs and Me."


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Joel_Goldenberg
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posted 03 August 2007 06:05 AM      Profile for Joel_Goldenberg        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In that same sequence, the narrator says that the insurance companies were on the defensive, but that is nowhere in the movie, except in a televised hearing from many years before. I was actually looking forward to more of this in the movie.

I'm also noticing in the trailer that after the narrator asks "what were they (the insurance companies) trying to hide?," there is an official asking if the movie camera is on. But wasn't that person a Canada/U.S. border employee?

[ 03 August 2007: Message edited by: Joel_Goldenberg ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 03 August 2007 06:47 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with you Joel, if you meant should Micheal Moore have let these bastards answer to the claims in the movie, because watching them weasel out of it would have been amusing and really really sad for the users of that system. But if you mean should MM have given them a voice - no. Right wingers can do that if they care to - and I am pretty sure they already have, even the right wingers who live there and know this happens stick up for these HMO's and I have heard them say that people abuse the system and should be turfed out with no treatment. They conveniently regurgitate the "experimental treatment" line. They haven't even seen the movei most of them.

So much for compassionate conservatisim. people against people. It's disgusting.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 07 August 2007 08:24 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He actually did give the insurance side, and quite clearly. The insurance companies have very effectively maximized the return for their shareholders. This is their primary concern, and indeed their fiduciary responsibility.

I thought that was the whole point of the film.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 22 August 2007 04:08 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm now into the second season of The Awful Truth, and it's a scream!

You know, I never heard about the Ficus tree he ran against a representative from the 11th district of New Jersey, and the tree actually won some of the polls! (And the returning clerk, who is a Republican, refused to count the Ficus votes.) And then people all over the US started running ficus trees against unopposed candidates! I never heard about it before now.

I also loved his bit where he decided to drive a cab in NYC and refused to pick up all white people. He picked up no one but African Americans, and of course filmed all the white people who were stunned and angry at being refused a cab ride.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
AfroHealer
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Babbler # 11362

posted 30 August 2007 06:56 AM      Profile for AfroHealer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm now into the second season of The Awful Truth, and it's a scream!

You know, I never heard about the Ficus tree he ran against a representative from the 11th district of New Jersey, and the tree actually won some of the polls! (And the returning clerk, who is a Republican, refused to count the Ficus votes.) And then people all over the US started running ficus trees against unopposed candidates! I never heard about it before now.

I also loved his bit where he decided to drive a cab in NYC and refused to pick up all white people. He picked up no one but African Americans, and of course filmed all the white people who were stunned and angry at being refused a cab ride.


Yeah I love his work!! ..

I remember borrowing a few seasons of "The awful truth" from my local library. He does put the fun back in fundamental democracy.. Too bad the US admin is focusing on the "mental" part.

Micheal Moores Doc's areabout making the mainstream go HMMMMMMMMMMMM .. about pointing out the Lies, deception, greed and inhumane system that the americans are in, and showing them some alternatives. It's not a grad student research paper.

WHen the "system" stop killing & exploiting . .. I'll ask Mr Moore to simmer down. Until then .. keep up the good work buddy!!

The Mr Moore critics remind me of a line from Saturday night live
"I once started to laugh when i saw an old lady trip a dfall on the sidewalk, then i thought .. maybe I would not be laughing , if i was an ant and she had landed on me "

Just in case you missed my point .. the critics are concerned with the potential pain that an imaginary ant might feel, and have no concern for the poor old lady.

Ant = corporate Global exploitative industries.

Old lady== the rest of us.


From: Atlantic Canada | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged

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