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Author Topic: 2008 Debates - French debate
Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 03:57 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It starts in just a few minutes, so we could use a thread for comments and analysis. It can be viewed live on the net using the link below:

Live stream from CPAC


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:02 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting setup with everyone around a table.

Oh - and what IS that exploding out of EMay's neck?

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Doug ]


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:10 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh good Jack - accuse Harper of being old-fashioned before he does it to you.
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:11 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is coming off as a debate between Layton and Harper. Dion looks out of his league in his own first language. May is a side show.
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remind
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posted 01 October 2008 04:14 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please please keep the commentary comin,g as us dial up peeps can't watch CPAC, and I only get CTV, Global and CBC main and none are carrying it.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:15 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMay: "As a woman..." Um, I think we noticed. Otherwise a good point about the "Dutch disease" high oil prices and investment are causing. She just could have put it more concisely.
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not impressed with the moderation. It seems pretty heavy handed and doesn't allow the back and forth this format is supposed to allow.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:18 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
I am not impressed with the moderation. It seems pretty heavy handed and doesn't allow the back and forth this format is supposed to allow.

I think, sadly, it has to be with 5 people involved.


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:21 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe, but it just seems way too directive.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:22 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A good point from Duceppe about the futility of corporate tax cuts when companies aren't making money.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:24 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oooh - good question about nationalizing oil (and woofy daddy - I know, not relevant but I felt like mentioning it). I expect everyone will back away on this to some extent.
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Donald MacDonald-Ross
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posted 01 October 2008 04:25 PM      Profile for Donald MacDonald-Ross   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please please keep the commentary comin,g as us dial up peeps can't watch CPAC, and I only get CTV, Global and CBC main and none are carrying it.

Try http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/debates/


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:25 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack missed a perfect chance to slay the deficeit question. It was a okay answer, but it was a missed opportunity.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:29 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree, but an ok response anyway.
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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 04:30 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is kind of like a parliamentary debate where the debaters don't really engage each other directly, but address all remarks through the chair. They're not really even looking at each other. This is really more of a Q-and-A than a debate.

I kind of miss the old days when the leaders were actually permitted to, you know, debate - engage one another for a set amount of time. The Turner-Mulroney clashes in 1984 ("You had an option Sir") and 1988 ("You sold us out") were classics. Since then all of the debates have been a glorified Q-and-A / joint press conference - yawn.

The old one-on-one style was OK when there were just three leaders - it's probably not manageable with more.


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:31 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting how Elizabeth May keeps talking about cutting taxes...I suppose she must be trying to talk to Conservatives?
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:33 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack needs to jump in more. The moderator is moving towards the side rather than around the table. Harper can live with that, but Jack can't
Very strong performance so far.

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remind
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posted 01 October 2008 04:34 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you Donald I can listen delayed at least!
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Stockholm
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posted 01 October 2008 04:36 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like how Jack personalizes his answers by referring to people he has met etc... while the others all talk about issues in the abstract.
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quelar
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posted 01 October 2008 04:37 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The table seems to be in the shape of a toilet bowl... A warning that if we vote for the turd, he's going to flush the canadian Maple Leaf away with him.
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:38 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:47 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know if Elizabeth May having a hissy fit at Stephen Harper will help her, but it's sure entertaining!
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:51 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She is coming off as sort of bossy and rude. A bit like Layton in his first debate.

I just switched to the translators. The translators are doing an amazing job. They must be having fun.


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 04:55 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like this question! (for those not watching, each leader has been asked to say something nice about another leader) The best answer wins the damning with faint praise award.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Doug ]


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 04:59 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow what a graceless answer from May. She tried to rescue it by bringing up Harpers kids, but that just came off really bad and sure doesn't point to her big claim of doing politics differently.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 05:05 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now everyone's just whining about what they called each other. YAWN...
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 05:09 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good question about gun control - puts Harper on the spot for sure.
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bagkitty
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posted 01 October 2008 05:10 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMay seems to be channeling the energizer bunny persona Jack had in the 2004 election
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quelar
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posted 01 October 2008 05:11 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So far

Duceppe - Strong

Dion - good and getting in some details - but still not strong enough

Harper - managing to fend off most attacks, but he's getting weary

Layton - Hit some good points, needs a few more kill shots

May - I'll give her a pass, and she's improvingm but we'll see


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A_J
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posted 01 October 2008 05:12 PM      Profile for A_J     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Wow what a graceless answer from May. She tried to rescue it by bringing up Harpers kids, but that just came off really bad and sure doesn't point to her big claim of doing politics differently.

Seriously.

All in all, I think Harper did the best there with that question. Everyone else, especially Layton and May, were slipping in some kind of attack.


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burlington
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posted 01 October 2008 05:26 PM      Profile for burlington   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack started strong, but he's faltering. He's acting like the fourth party the NDP is right now. Dion had some good answers and I thought he did well at putting down the NDP's cap and trade proposal. Dion took on Harper well on the youth crime, Jack was weak on that I thought.

I didn't catch Jack's snide remark in the complementing the other leaders question, but I thought May's was really bad.


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 05:26 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Elizabeth May likes Quebec, yay.
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Treetop
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posted 01 October 2008 05:28 PM      Profile for Treetop     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dion sort of looks like he went for a spray on tan before the debate. He looks a bit orange.
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Treetop
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posted 01 October 2008 05:30 PM      Profile for Treetop     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMay: Artists are poor.
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RobD
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posted 01 October 2008 05:30 PM      Profile for RobD        Edit/Delete Post
So far IMO,

EMay - out there
Dion - nearly invisible
Layton - Started strongest
Harper - Surviving the 4-1
Gilles - strong at times


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bagkitty
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posted 01 October 2008 05:34 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not what it is being said, but how the camera is framing the shots... did the NDP use part of the budget to bribe the director, when there are Layton/Harper exchanges, the camera angle is working to make Layton look imposing, and Harper looks like he is cringing...
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janfromthebruce
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posted 01 October 2008 05:37 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bagkitty:
Not what it is being said, but how the camera is framing the shots... did the NDP use part of the budget to bribe the director, when there are Layton/Harper exchanges, the camera angle is working to make Layton look imposing, and Harper looks like he is cringing...


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 05:37 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am noticing a subtle sexism creeping into the moderation. May is being allowed to interupt people, yet the others are not.

I think someone told Jack don't be too agressive and he has taken it to much to heart. He is disappearing.


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 05:39 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Jack just did great on the health question.
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Stockholm
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posted 01 October 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This debate is a demonstration of why including Elizabeth May was a mistake. The more people you have around the table - the less of a debate you have the more of a focus group you have. There is almost no way to have a "debate" with five people taking turns giving answers. I find the whole thing quite boring.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ooooh....the frightening economic conservative and the scary socialist! Make our blood creep, Stephane!
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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 05:42 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh - Jack and Harper look like two guys in a faculty lounge having a discussion over a drink...Jack's resting his chin on his hand while Harper answers his question on tax cuts vs. doctor training...

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]


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RobD
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posted 01 October 2008 05:44 PM      Profile for RobD        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
This debate is a demonstration of why including Elizabeth May was a mistake. The more people you have around the table - the less of a debate you have the more of a focus group you have. There is almost no way to have a "debate" with five people taking turns giving answers. I find the whole thing quite boring.

I agree. The English debate should be a 3 person debate. And please lose the sit-down format.


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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 05:46 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whoops - Jack just got gonged by the moderator.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 05:48 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
EMay said that we shouldn't have announced a withdrawal date at all?

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Doug ]


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Stockholm
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posted 01 October 2008 05:50 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its great that the last question is about Afghanistan - Jack gets to reiterate that the NDP is the only party that wants an immediate withdrawal - a very popular position in Quebec in particular.
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Treetop
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posted 01 October 2008 05:51 PM      Profile for Treetop     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RobD:

And please lose the sit-down format.



Agreed.


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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 05:52 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting how Dion's translator has a Scottish accent and Bureau's translator has an Australian (?) accent.
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 05:53 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack started out strong, but sort of went into a shell for a bit, but he has caught a second wind. I thought that segment with Ducceppe was actually really good because it should passion and steel.

My ratings on performance
Ducceppe - Layton on top
Harper not all that far behind
Dion hot and cold, mostly cool.
May, one or two good segments, but she has shown a poor level of control.


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RobD
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posted 01 October 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for RobD        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ghoris:
Interesting how Dion's translator has a Scottish accent and Bureau's translator has an Australian (?) accent.

Ha. I was gonna post that but I thought I was crazy and just hearing a french accent as Scottish. Also, Harper's translator's voice doesn't suit Harper at all.


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WyldRage
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posted 01 October 2008 05:57 PM      Profile for WyldRage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Watching in French, Ducepe and Dion are the stronger performers. Harper is a robot, absolutey no emotion, and lies most of the time ("We don't make any personal attacks." Bullshit!).
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janfromthebruce
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posted 01 October 2008 05:57 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And please lose the sit-down format.

It actually creates hot and cold. People actually performed better standing up when talking. It's a physiological association and stimulates brain performance.


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RobD
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posted 01 October 2008 05:58 PM      Profile for RobD        Edit/Delete Post
From a strategy perspective, why on earth would Harper bring up Kyoto at the end of the debate during a discussion on Afghanistan???
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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 05:59 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dion just undermined his arguments claiming Jack Layton has no sense of responsibility. He MUST be made to wear this American Republican style attack.
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MUN Prof.
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posted 01 October 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for MUN Prof.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did Harper really just say "I'm laughing a bit"? (I'm watching CBC anglo).

If that's laughing, I wouldn't like to see him when he's pissed.


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bagkitty
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posted 01 October 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just loved Gilles last attack on Harper over complaining in opposition that the Libs did too much on Kyoto, and here in the debate him (Harper) saying the Libs did too little... I love it when someone calls bullshit, and when you do it in defense of someone you obviously don't like (Gilles defending Dion)... bullshit squared, gotta love it
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ghoris
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posted 01 October 2008 06:01 PM      Profile for ghoris     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jack started out strong, but sort of went into a shell for a bit, but he has caught a second wind. I thought that segment with Ducceppe was actually really good because it should passion and steel.
My ratings on performance
Ducceppe - Layton on top
Harper not all that far behind
Dion hot and cold, mostly cool.
May, one or two good segments, but she has shown a poor level of control.


I generally agree, although I think the substance of Layton's answers was far superior to Duceppe's. Duceppe basically just keeps repeating the same "Harper=Bush", "Harper=Republican" line and it got old fast. Duceppe is going for the throat against Harper but Layton looks more 'Prime Ministerial'.

Harper is not looking quite as strong as 2006 but that was to be expected because now he's the one on the hot seat. He's holding his own despite the four-on-one attacks and the limitations of the format in terms of his ability to reply. He's done a good job of maintaining his cool all things considered, especially compared to Paul Martin flailing around wildly in 2006.

Dion got a few good lines off but did not really land any knockout blows. I think he needed to go after Harper more aggressively and didn't. The debate will do little to dispel the "Professeur Dion" image.

May is reprising Layton's 2004 performance and I think she will get the same negative reviews. She's clearly in over her head, although it might be partly due to language issues.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: ghoris ]


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 06:04 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the whole that was a mess - we could stand to lose one or two of those leaders (from a good television perspective). Each of them had a hard time communicating their arguments at times.
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Fidel
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posted 01 October 2008 06:06 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Each of them had a hard time communicating their arguments at times.

How is Jack's Francais?


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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 06:17 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good response from Stephen Harper in his press conference to Stephane Dion's plan to have a bunch of economic meetings - if he's successful in getting that narrative out it'll seem like the Liberal Party has handed itself an anchor again.
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Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 06:18 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

How is Jack's Francais?


My own is far from good enough to be able to judge properly.


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remind
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posted 01 October 2008 06:18 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Jack started out strong, but sort of went into a shell for a bit, but he has caught a second wind. I thought that segment with Ducceppe was actually really good because it should passion and steel.
I thought Jack retired a bit there for a moment too, but I started to pay attention to what Gilles was saying, and then got more of an impression that Layton had made a decision to let Duceppe shine with out interruption. And then a bit later Duceppe stepped out of the conversation, and Jack stepped in and made some good hits against Harper in his own right.

And overall Harper lied his way through the whole damn thing, and I could not handle hearing his low patronizing voice in French.

Moreover, I am glad EMay was there, sincerely glad. I believe she got some good points in against Harper that the men seemed willing to let slide. And she was quick on the BS meter with "fraud" changes.

With this leaders debate finished they will now be burning the midnight oil going over the show looking at all aspects for missing points and weaker moments.


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RobD
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posted 01 October 2008 06:20 PM      Profile for RobD        Edit/Delete Post
Post Debate Press Conference:

Q: Mr. Dion, what was your goal tonight in the debate?

Dion: "Well first, of course, to argue with the other leaders..."


From: Canada | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 01 October 2008 06:24 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A lot of commentary I have been reading about the debate has remarked on how good Jack's French was and how much better than in the 2006 debate.
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montrealais
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posted 01 October 2008 06:33 PM      Profile for montrealais   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He sounds like a Quebec Anglo who lived in Toronto for a long time but works very hard on his French, uses it frequently, and considers it very important to speak fluently. There may be a reason for this.

He sounds very confident and uninhibited when he speaks French, like he's not worried about the possibility of mistakes. It took me a while to get to that state, living in Quebec and working in French constantly (and living with my Québécois ex for some time).


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Bookish Agrarian
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posted 01 October 2008 06:34 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pretty clear to me that Layton won the post-debate press conference. Not that anyone but the hardcore political junkies are watching.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 01 October 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was reading a live blogger who was blogging the debate. He/she (who is a liberal) said that Dion/Dueppe did very well and Jack was a very close second. Noted too at one point Jack lagging but overall a good performance.
Also she/he noticed that May performed poorly, and was very disappointed in her responses to the environment questions.

From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 01 October 2008 06:54 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I must say the CBC's closed-captioning was excellent - I just turned the sound off and read the captioning. My pick for best performance goes to Duceppe, next Layton, next a tie between Dion and Harper, and May last. I'm glad May was there - her performance wasn't that great, I wish she wouldn't wave her hands so much, but far better than I thought we were going to see. I think the arguments for having her excluded seem ridiculous now that we've seen her in the debate.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 01 October 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Wow what a graceless answer from May. She tried to rescue it by bringing up Harpers kids, but that just came off really bad and sure doesn't point to her big claim of doing politics differently.

Well, what on earth could anyone say about Harper that they admire? The man is a complete piece of garbage. I'm surprised May was able to come up with at least her observation that Harper is a good father. She had the most difficult task of the five.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 01 October 2008 07:02 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Well, what on earth could anyone say about Harper that they admire?


She could have praised him for having done better than she has in improving his French.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bagkitty
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posted 01 October 2008 07:02 PM      Profile for bagkitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She could have complimented him on his grasp, nay, strangle-hold over his party.
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ottawaobserver
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posted 01 October 2008 07:07 PM      Profile for ottawaobserver     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just watched the lead CBC National story on the debate. Apparently Jack Layton did not participate. Or at least they had not one thing to say about his participation. Elizabeth May apparently won.

Did I accidentally watch the wrong debate?


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Fidel
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posted 01 October 2008 07:12 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it was David Lewis who went to live in France to learn the language. He was very serious about Canadian politics and best leader this country never had. Canadians have dropped gold coins to pick up dirty pennies in the past.

E.May will probably step down from the party and accept a corporate board appointment. Politics will be little more than a passing phase for her as well as the big money party candidates who fall anywhere short of first past the majority.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 01 October 2008 07:16 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ottawaobserver:
I just watched the lead CBC National story on the debate. Apparently Jack Layton did not participate. Or at least they had not one thing to say about his participation. Elizabeth May apparently won.

She did gain the most of anyone just from being there. So - she's done what she needed to. So did Gilles Duceppe, I think, and that's troublesome for everyone else at the toilet seat..uh..table.

What The National says tonight doesn't really matter - the main show for English Canada is tomorrow. Now, if Radio-Canada has done the same thing in its news program, that wouldn't be good.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Doug ]


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Wilf Day
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posted 01 October 2008 07:35 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jeffrey Simpson: Duceppe won.
quote:
Mr. Duceppe presented himself better than the other leaders to the largely Quebec audience. If any voters were influenced by the debate, it would likely be toward the Bloc. If so, that would be bad news for the Conservatives, who are fighting with the Bloc in three dozen or so ridings outside Montreal.

. . . the smooth-talking, well-briefed Mr. Duceppe likely reinforced his party's lead in Quebec with the élan of a politician schooled in these sort of affairs and well plugged into the nuances of dossiers of particular interest to Quebec.



I agree.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 01 October 2008 07:41 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Likewise. He was natural, confident, and the only one who seemed to actually know some real live Quebeckers. I realize the debate wasn't about Québec, but that's where he's running and it will consolidate his support.

And to the extent that his support hurts Harper's chances in Québec, I will celebrate.

I didn't much like his vacillation and prevarication on Afghanistan, of course - trying to claim it is Layton's fault the mission is continuing beyond 2009 - that was sophistry.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
john
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posted 01 October 2008 07:45 PM      Profile for john     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ottawaobserver:
I just watched the lead CBC National story on the debate. Apparently Jack Layton did not participate. Or at least they had not one thing to say about his participation. Elizabeth May apparently won.

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation = Think Twice Coalition of Election 2008.


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janfromthebruce
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posted 01 October 2008 07:48 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the press scrum that followed, all the leaders got cut off after answering about 4/5 questions, but they kept asking jack questions and he was in his element and got to have about 7/8. That's very interesting, and bodes well for the write for tomorrow.
From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Winston
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posted 01 October 2008 07:53 PM      Profile for Winston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was actually quite surprised by Jack's lack of facility with French, and his seeming inability to introduce any nuance into his language. The recent Franco media reports I have read made much ado about how Jack's French has improved lately.

I was equally surprised by how much better Harper's French was this time than last. He seems (at least from my anglo perspective) to have achieved a level of fluency that many would envy.

Elizabeth May's frequent and sometimes incoherent interruptions did her few favours, I think. Her French needs a LOT of work.

Naturally Dion and Duceppe had a much easier time pushing their ideas in their first language.

My perceptions:

Winner: Duceppe

2nd: Harper (managed to keep calm and spoke well for the most part

3rd: Dion (Explained his policies eloquently, and got a few digs in at Harper and Layton - sometime with Moderator help, it seemed to me)

4th: Layton (with the high expectations placed on him - even in Quebec - he probably disappointed)

5th: May (eeeych!)

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Winston ]


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 01 October 2008 07:54 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canadian Press: Dion's best moment:
quote:
Harper began to say that disagreements are normal in politics — but Dion cut him off.
“You have considered independent scientists and civil servants like political adversaries, and your political adversaries like enemies,” Dion said.

“You diminished greatly the quality of democracy in Canada. . . When I raised some of the troubles you’ve had in managing the war in Afghanistan — like with the detainees — you called me a Taliban. When I recently said you were dreaming in technicolor, that there were economic troubles in Canada, you accused me of praying for a recession.”

Layton spoke the most colloquial French of the anglophone participants. Harper’s French became slightly more laboured as the debate drew on and May’s limited vocabulary had her asking for translation help from the moderator on a few occasions.

. . . perhaps (Harper) was purposely throttling back his occasional tendency to lunge for the jugular of political opponents.

When his opponents unanimously derided him as being beholden to the oil sands he gently put up his hands and asked the moderator in a near-whisper: “Please let me explain.”

This from a Conservative leader who would so often use his 45-second time allotment in the daily question period to crush opponents with withering counterattacks.

Denizens of Parliament Hill have come to expect Harper to respond to any criticism of his environmental record with a blistering retort about greenhouse-gas increases under the Liberals.

This time, a pained grin remained plastered on his face throughout an attack on his commitment to the environment by Liberal Leader Stephane Dion.



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ClaudeB
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posted 01 October 2008 08:05 PM      Profile for ClaudeB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Oh Jack just did great on the health question.

No he did not. Attacking Duceppe on this issue shows how out of step the NDP is when it comes to Quebec. He really doesn't understand a thing about Quebec politics, which was all this was about tonight.

Health is a provincial jurisdiction and the way to solve the health issue is to transfer tax points to the provinces so they can deal with it. As for a federal-managed, universal prescription drug program, it's a non-issue in Québec, because we've had one for the last decade or so.

I missed the first part of the debate and listened to the second part on the bus, but this statement by Layton was just horrible.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: ClaudeB ]


From: Québec | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Winston
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posted 01 October 2008 08:10 PM      Profile for Winston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ClaudeB:

You hit the nail on the head. He should have saved that health care attack on Duceppe for the English debates. Intruding on provincial jurisdiction DOES NOT sell in Quebec


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Alone30s
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posted 01 October 2008 08:13 PM      Profile for Alone30s        Edit/Delete Post
Agreed. Layton missed the boat on how to attack Duceppe and as well Layton's French was really bad. About as bad as May's. Although I was surprised that she did so well in French.

Winners Dion and Duceppe
Losers Layton and Harper


From: Dartmouth | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 01 October 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All winners, no loser in this tea party.
quote:
Le « con » du dîner, évidemment, c'était Stephen Harper, qui s'est fait rentrer dedans toute la soirée avec un stoïcisme remarquable.

S'il faut absolument déclarer un vainqueur, ce serait probablement Gilles Duceppe, mais seulement en comptant le nombre de coups portés puisqu'il n'y a pas eu de knock-out.

Et encore, mince victoire, parce que Stéphane Dion a très bien fait ; Jack Layton a beaucoup mieux fait qu'en 2006, et même Elizabeth May a tiré son épingle du jeu.

Tous des vainqueurs, donc ? Non, en fait, c'est qu'il n'y a eu aucun perdant.

Par moments, on s'attendait presque à voir Violette arriver dans le studio pour servir le thé aux chefs.

Vraiment, un drôle de débat...



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Hunky_Monkey
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posted 01 October 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for Hunky_Monkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was Layton's attack on Duceppe aimed at certain parts of Quebec (ie. - Montreal? I'm not quite sure about the politics of dealing with health care jurisdiction in Quebec. So, are the feelings around it different in different areas? Was Layton targeting his message?
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largeheartedboy
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posted 01 October 2008 08:23 PM      Profile for largeheartedboy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by john:

Canadian Broadcasting Corporation = Think Twice Coalition of Election 2008.


Too true. Too true


From: Ottawa | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Winston
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posted 01 October 2008 08:30 PM      Profile for Winston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alone30s:

Calling Dion the leader of that one is a BIG stretch. If all the voters are exposed to is the voice, he may be alright, but I'm not so sure that would be the case if they saw the TV clips. He spent the whole debate with a condescending sneer on his face. Dion was unequivocally one of the "Losers".

That said, I thought Jack could have done better.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ClaudeB
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posted 01 October 2008 08:49 PM      Profile for ClaudeB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hunky_Monkey:
Was Layton's attack on Duceppe aimed at certain parts of Quebec (ie. - Montreal? I'm not quite sure about the politics of dealing with health care jurisdiction in Quebec. So, are the feelings around it different in different areas? Was Layton targeting his message?

I don't think so. All provincial parties in the province have been strong on that point since the Tremblay report, published in the fourth term of Maurice Duplessis, back in 1956.

Every premier since then (Lesage, Johnson père, Bertrand, Bourassa I, Lévesque, Johnson (Pierre-Marc), Bourassa II, Johnson jr, Parizeau, Bouchard, Landry and even Charest) has made this jurisdictional issue a matter of paramount importance in federal-provincial relations and has served as a winning slogan in many elections of the past 50 years ("Maîtres chez-nous", "Égalité ou indépendance", "Faut rester forts au Québec", etc).

That's also why the NDP has never made any gain in Quebec; they're even worse than the federal Liberals when it comes to centralization. I'm sure the NDP knows this and that's why it's quite puzzling, really.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: ClaudeB ]


From: Québec | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Daniel Grice
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posted 01 October 2008 09:16 PM      Profile for Daniel Grice   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This debate was really between Duceppe and Harper for the Quebec City area seats. As has been the case in nearly every other French debate for the last few elections, Duceppe won.

(He has it easy, he only needs to talk about what is good for Quebec. He also doesn't have to sound like a politician, he just needs to keep his base happy.)

Dion may have redeemed himself slightly, but I doubt it is enough to revive the Liberal fortunes in Quebec. Maybe enough to save one or two seats, but no more.

Layton did not have a lot to win or lose, nor did May, and as such both accomplished what they needed to.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
BetterRed
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posted 01 October 2008 09:47 PM      Profile for BetterRed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alone30s:
Agreed. Layton missed the boat on how to attack Duceppe and as well Layton's French was really bad. About as bad as May's. Although I was surprised that she did so well in French.

Winners Dion and Duceppe
Losers Layton and Harper


Well, I dont think those of us who watched the translated debates could be good judges of their French.
However, the CTV/Sympatico/Canadian Press site story claimed that Layton used the most colloquial French:

quote:
Layton spoke the most colloquial French of the anglophone participants. Harper's French became slightly more laboured as the debate drew on and May's limited vocabulary had her asking for translation help from the moderator on a few occasions.

So to you, maybe Layton's choice of words and phrases may have sounded bad. But it doesnt mean tha Layton's colloquial, ordinary French is politically a bad thing. The media may like or dislike something, but it doesnt mean that average folks would.
Just look at the style of US politicians to see examples.


From: They change the course of history, everyday ppl like you and me | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 10:06 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Wow what a graceless answer from May. She tried to rescue it by bringing up Harpers kids, but that just came off really bad and sure doesn't point to her big claim of doing politics differently.

I agree, but it's kinda hard with so little material to work from.


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 10:12 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

Moreover, I am glad EMay was there, sincerely glad. I believe she got some good points in against Harper that the men seemed willing to let slide. And she was quick on the BS meter with "fraud" changes.

Like I thought, she is the best suited to challenge him in ways the others can't. Her being in the debates can help bring harper down.

However, everybody had their moments with him.


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 10:17 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I think it was David Lewis who went to live in France to learn the language. He was very serious about Canadian politics and best leader this country never had. Canadians have dropped gold coins to pick up dirty pennies in the past.

E.May will probably step down from the party and accept a corporate board appointment. Politics will be little more than a passing phase for her as well as the big money party candidates who fall anywhere short of first past the majority.


A Corporate Board? Where do you come up with this stuff?

Have you not heard her say if it weren't for politics she would become an Anglican Minister?

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 10:20 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Winston:
Alone30s:

Calling Dion the leader of that one is a BIG stretch. If all the voters are exposed to is the voice, he may be alright, but I'm not so sure that would be the case if they saw the TV clips. He spent the whole debate with a condescending sneer on his face. Dion was unequivocally one of the "Losers".

That said, I thought Jack could have done better.


I assume you watched it with the english translation, because he came across very well in french.


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Lefty
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posted 01 October 2008 10:43 PM      Profile for West Coast Lefty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I was actually quite surprised by Jack's lack of facility with French, and his seeming inability to introduce any nuance into his language. The recent Franco media reports I have read made much ado about how Jack's French has improved lately.
I was equally surprised by how much better Harper's French was this time than last. He seems (at least from my anglo perspective) to have achieved a level of fluency that many would envy.
Elizabeth May's frequent and sometimes incoherent interruptions did her few favours, I think. Her French needs a LOT of work.

You are correct about May, but I totally disagree about Layton and Harper. As both Simpson (Globe and Mail) and Marissal (La Presse)commented, Jack's French was excellent for the entire debate (with one or two minor flubs) and a huge improvement over 2006. He was relaxed and got his points across very well, with just as much nuance as the other leaders, except maybe Duceppe.

Harper was able to make himself understood but it was a very rigid and un-natural French that he spoke, lots of hesitations and self-corrections on the wording, etc. Not as bad as May but actually not that much better. Harper is very strong in scripted French speeches but he is not effective in a rapid-fire debate format.

Duceppe was the clear winner - I'd say 2nd place was a tie between Dion and Layton. Dion wins as he exceeded expectations, but for non-political junkies, he was still talking in long academic sentences and didn't connect to average voter concerns nearly as well as Jack did. Jack's confrontations with Harper were in general stronger than Dion's (Jack's placement around the table helped a lot) but Dion did improve towards the end of the debate.

This debate won't change much in the Quebec landscape, except bring Harper down a bit and the BQ up further. Dion may get some media approval but I don't see his numbers moving much in the polls. Layton will hopefully gain a bit as well.


From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 01 October 2008 10:53 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While CBC's analysis was weak, I thought that CTV took the cake for bad coverage when they had Jean Lapierre as their sole analyst on the National News. Lloyd Robertson identified him as "a Quebec commentator" (as if he hadn't been a Liberal MP until two years ago and a Liberal cabinet minister under Martin). Guess what? He said that Dion won
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
bekayne
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posted 01 October 2008 10:54 PM      Profile for bekayne        Edit/Delete Post
There's already a CROP/La Presse poll about the debates:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-2008/enjeux/sondages/200810/02/01-25550-duceppe-et-dion-les-grands-gagnants.php

From: Kelowna, BC | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 10:55 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After having watched it completely in french on Radio-Canada, here's what I think (In order of debate performance):

1. Dion - He came across as comfortable and concise (especially as the debate played out). He seemed trustworthy and made a very strong case for himself. He took the high road most of the time, including when he took on Harper for the way in which his party can't handle other ideas and calling the people behind them liberal or whatever in order to bring them down. He seemed to know the issues very well and his points about leadership we're quite eloquent.

2. Duceppe - Naturally this would be the debate in which he would shine, however I didn't think he did as good a job as Dion. He made some very good points when addressing Harper, and carried himself very well. This was to be expected. However, it was rather 'par for the course.'

3. Layton - Layton did a fairly good job. He speaks generally well for an anglo, and although he makes errors every once in a while it is not of that much importance. He made good points and carried himself well. However, he looked bad when the other opposition parties took him on for not supporting the 2009 afghanistan mission end date.
I liked when he talked about being able to cooperate with the other parties involved, but had a hard time seeing him as pm (so sue me).

4. May - Obviously she had some trouble with the language, as she struggled somewhat. In the beginning her answers were rather simplistic, and didn't carry much weight. However, as time went on and she got a bit more comfortable she seemed to make very good points, even through the language barrier. She had quite a few memorable moments, and was quite effective in taking on Harper. Unluckily, she got stuck with having to praise harper, and she seemed to have quite a bit of trouble with the concept. That didn't look so good. Overall, she did better than I expected in a french debate. We'll see how she performs in the english language format.

5. Harper - Although he succeeded in not appearing scary in his demeanor and tried to appeal as gracious as possible, he sounded quite phony at times. It looked like he had practised his soft voice talking style quite a bit. In terms of his performance in the french language, it was quite adequate. He had to defend himself quite a bit, as was to be expected, and didn't do utterly horrible - Unfortunately it wasn't great either. He seemed to be on the wrong side of nearly every issue and in defending them came across as speaking in falsehoods. Accusing an editorial writer in a Canadian Medical Journal of being a Liberal, didn't help with the perception being created of his party in this election. He appeared arrogant at times as well. Overall, he didn't make me angry at him although I rolled my eyes quite a few times during the debate, so thats a partial win in my books.

[ 01 October 2008: Message edited by: Interested Observer ]


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
bekayne
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posted 01 October 2008 10:57 PM      Profile for bekayne        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
While CBC's analysis was weak, I thought that CTV took the cake for bad coverage when they had Jean Lapierre as their sole analyst on the National News. Lloyd Robertson identified him as "a Quebec commentator" (as if he hadn't been a Liberal MP until two years ago and a Liberal cabinet minister under Martin). Guess what? He said that Dion won

Lapierre has never been a fan of Dion.


From: Kelowna, BC | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
skarredmunkey
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posted 01 October 2008 11:04 PM      Profile for skarredmunkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought this was a great debate, the format was a LOT more interesting and watchable than the podium format, IMHO. Dear conglomerate, please keep this format and the 5 leaders in future debates. Thanks.

Layton - was evasive on the questions I was most interested in. Evaded the question on nationalization of oil & gas industry, and instead of answering the budget deficit question started talking about corporate taxes. But, he held his own and made good use of his time in being combative with Harper when he didn't need to

Dion - handled himself surprisingly well, looked like he was at ease, but also did not seem Prime Ministerial or even "Leader of the opposition" but rather 1 of the 4. (Due to seating arrangement, maybe, but also due to the poor moderation by Bureau who gave a lot more time to Harper than the other 4).

Harper - surprisingly well composed, almost seemed half-human. His voters will have considered his performance a success.

Duceppe - got in a few good digs about Harper voting against a plan to let provinces trade carbon credits on the Montreal stock exchange.

May - performed surprisingly well in spite of an apparent weakness with French. But provided disappointing answers on some issues. The Greens are more and more right-wing every time I look.


From: Vancouver Centre | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 01 October 2008 11:05 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My thoughts...

1 - Duceppe (landed the most punches)
2 - Dion (Not bad at all... the sit-down format helps him, clearly. He might have improved his fortunes in Quebec.)
3 - Harper (looked okay when being quadruple tag-teamed, certainly didn't gain ground)
4 - Layton (solid, but didn't really get any great shots in, the sit-down format hurts him)
5 - May (Which is a better result than last election. Her poor French handcuffed her, but she seemed a little too anxious to get her shots in. I hope she doesn't do that in the English debate)


From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 11:11 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bekayne:
There's already a CROP/La Presse poll about the debates:
http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/elections-2 008/enjeux/sondages/200810/02/01-25550-duceppe-et-dion-les-grands-gagnants.php

Sounds about right to me.

The most important part I find from it is this line:

quote:
Même impact sur l'opinion des électeurs : 29 % des répondants affirment que leur opinion du Parti conservateur s'est détériorée, un sommet. À l'autre bout du spectre, 45 % des répondants ont vu leur opinion du Parti libéral s'améliorer.

Viewers opinion of Harper was down 29% after watching, and 45% of viewers had a better impression of the Liberal party after having watched the debates.

Looks like he won't get his majority. YIPPEE!


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Parkdale High Park
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posted 01 October 2008 11:23 PM      Profile for Parkdale High Park     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Interested Observer:

Viewers opinion of Harper was down 29% after watching, and 45% of viewers had a better impression of the Liberal party after having watched the debates.

Looks like he won't get his majority. YIPPEE!


Yeah but they didn't break down what the partisan affiliations were there. I would suspect many of the 29% whose impression of Harper worsened were people who already had a dim impression of Harper in the first place. Anyhow, Harper isn't gunning for 90% of Quebec, he is trying to win ~33% at most. Anyhow, Harper lost by much more in the 2006 French debates.

Secondly, if this election in Quebec is primarily a left-right one, then a Liberal success helps Harper, as Bloc voters migrate to the Liberal Party. Since the Bloc is at ~40% in the polls, while the Liberals are much lower, that helps the Conservatives in close ridings.

Thirdly, again, it is hard to interpret the La Presse poll meaningfully because they chose a "how did X perform" format, versus a "who won" format for their question. Who won is a better approximation of where voter intentions might go - people may view Elizabeth May or Jack Layton favourably, but not think of either as the winners of the debate, nor consider voting for them.

I think Dion is the clear winner at the end of the day, though I didn't think so from watching the debate. His 30 days proposal (which is kind of lame - if elected, I will hold high-level meetings on the economy) made the front pages, La Presse called him the winner and so it looks like he wins the spin war. It can still all wither, but the real thing that would kill Harper's majority are Dion successes in the English debate, which, coupled with the 30 day plan (which is apparently a winner) and the plagiarism scandal, could swing the election Dion's way.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 01 October 2008 11:35 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The media is saying the Liberal guy won and his talking points are all we hear. Whoduthunk?
From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 01 October 2008 11:40 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He did. And they were.
From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Interested Observer
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posted 01 October 2008 11:50 PM      Profile for Interested Observer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Parkdale High Park:
[QB]

Yeah but they didn't break down what the partisan affiliations were there. I would suspect many of the 29% whose impression of Harper worsened were people who already had a dim impression of Harper in the first place. Anyhow, Harper isn't gunning for 90% of Quebec, he is trying to win ~33% at most. Anyhow, Harper lost by much more in the 2006 French debates.

Secondly, if this election in Quebec is primarily a left-right one, then a Liberal success helps Harper, as Bloc voters migrate to the Liberal Party. Since the Bloc is at ~40% in the polls, while the Liberals are much lower, that helps the Conservatives in close ridings.


They tended to be political junkies obviously, and it showed voting intention at the end of the poll. It somewhat matches what existing polling states.

The separation issue really changes how politics plays out in quebec, so the normal left-right spectrum does not apply in the same way.

Harper is competing largely with the Bloc for votes on the one hand and also the liberals on the other.

Liberals however, need to win votes from the conservatives, the ndp and the bloc only somewhat.

They may have just surpassed the cons to become second again.

The major point is that voters that are considering the tories vs. Bloc are now more likely to vote Bloc. So the rural ridings are likely to reward the Bloc more now.

As for the Montreal area, the liberals likely solidified somewhat.


From: BC | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
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posted 02 October 2008 03:50 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Quand on demande aux répondants d'évaluer la performance des chefs, 54 % qualifient celle du chef du Bloc québécois Gilles Duceppe d'« excellente » ou « très bonne ». C'est six points de plus que le chef libéral Stéphane Dion, qui récolte 48 % d'appuis. Le chef du NPD Jack Layton obtient 38 % de réponses positives, tandis qu'Elizabeth May, du Parti vert, en reçoit 23 %.

Since I like to see how all do and not just the liberal here:

Duceppe: 54%
Dion: 48%
Layton: 38%
May: 23%


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
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posted 02 October 2008 04:08 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Interested Observer:

I assume you watched it with the english translation, because he came across very well in french.


This was my sense of that claim too. I switched back and forth, mostly for the absurdity of the accents of the translators and how they seemed to be getting right into it. Layton's french was quite good. Suggesting otherwise is silly, regardless of your partisan stripe.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 02 October 2008 05:08 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Secondly, if this election in Quebec is primarily a left-right one, then a Liberal success helps Harper, as Bloc voters migrate to the Liberal Party. Since the Bloc is at ~40% in the polls, while the Liberals are much lower, that helps the Conservatives in close ridings.

I disagree. One of the reasons the Conservatives have been gaining ground in Quebec is that they have become the default federalist party in much of Quebec. I think that if the Liberals gain any ground, it can also take votes from the Conservatives and help the BQ in some of the close BQ/Tory races in rural Quebec.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 02 October 2008 05:22 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length. Continue here.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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