Anyhow, check out some of the comments after this article for some good examples of blatant misogyny in the US election.

I can't believe the number of self-described Obama supporters who are making purely sexist attacks on Cindy McCain. She's a "homewrecker" is she? Wow, love how they stick it all on her - last I heard, she wasn't married when she and McCain started their affair. It's not like SHE broke any vows. Incredible.

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Originally posted by Polly Brandybuck:
Ya there's a lot of sexist bullshit in there, barbie comments and cheap shots about aging and looks and wardrobe.

Not sure about the homewrecker part though. Cindy knew he was married when she took up with him, and she knew that Mrs. McCain the first was an invalid. It didn't send her screaming in the opposite direction and it should have. While McCain is the way bigger asshole, that doesn't make Cindy not an asshole in that regard.

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This woman doesn't need a White House, she needs an SUV. She had her fling with John while he was still married and now she wants to be the First Lady? I don't think so, the first tramp you mean.

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Oh I know this is snarky but when I look at her I see Miss Cindy as an older woman who will end up plucking thick black hairs from that chin in a few years. She'll still be getting botoxed, hair still bleached out, and her neck and arms will give away her true age.

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Get her off the air. I can't stand this cheating fake barbie. Didn't she wear $300k worth of cloths.

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Says the mistress turned wife(y), drug abuser and $300k per outfit wearing woman.

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Is she on drugs again? CNN please check.

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Did anyone else besides me get sick to their stomach when McCain announced her as "First Lady." She is NO lady. A woman who knowingly had a relationship with a married man and father of three...

I hope I never have to see this drug addicted, house wrecker religious(less) woman again. Please do us all a favor and go shopping!

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Well, all I have to say is karma was a long time coming. A very long time. Cindy Lou snuck around with someone else's husband in Hawaii. Watched him leave 3 kids and an ailing wife, and now payback is a b………

Hawaii, the place where she met John-Married-Man-McCain, is the very same place where Barack was born. The place where Cindy and John had an affair while he was MARRIED, is the very same place Barack was conceived. Karma, karma, karma….HELLO?

Sorry Cindy Lou, but you made that bed. It started and ENDED in Hawaii.

Obama/Biden 08
Two men who stayed with their wives.

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Cindy, please go home and be quiet. Palin is a mad dog with lipstick that would not know the truth if it was poured on her. Kinda like you and your hubby.

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Cindy and Sarah are a pair of lesbians. Ha ha ha ha ha

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Cindy McCain has to be one of the least sympathetic candidate spouses in the history of campaigning. I wonder how much of a drag she is on the ticket.

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Pack Barbie A up and send her back to Arizona and then pack Barbie B up and send her back to Alaska. The world will be a better place. Oh, and take grandpa with you.

Obama/Biden 08

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Cindy was good on SNL, but not ready for prime time. I will give her this though, she dresses better than Michelle. Did you see that outfit Michelle had on last night. I thought she was going to the gym. What's up with her clothes? Cindy has the money to spend on clothes, and it shows, but Michelle could do a little bit better.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB][/QB]

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Yes, those are horrible. I have a low opinion of the woman's values and mode of life but there's no excuse for stuff like this.

("Barbie A" and "Barbie B" isn't that far off, though.)

[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Isn't there also "dressed-up doll" quality to Obama, as "great black hope" - not to mention G.I. John McCain? The difference being that when you're a man, this isn't held against you. (Ken didn't get 1% of the abuse that Barbie did.)

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I think that would depend on on who is doing the criticing. Obama's 'empty suit status', all image, no substance, fake, the false messiah was a main talking point of the entire Republican campaign and joke of republican supporters throughout the whole thing and likly will continue for some time. The McCain campaign even put ads out before the election ridiculing his 'all image, no substance, in the infamous "Celebrity Ad" after Berlin and the "Messiah ad" in the spring.

Same with McCain and his I'm a 'war hero' image and his POW status. Both have taken enormous amounts of criticism, jokes and ridicule by supporters of both camps. That sort of thing is all over comment boards. POW jokes are rampart.

I do think that these specific comments about Cindy are pretty bad and horrible. I have however read quite a few nasty things directed at McCain about this affair and him leaving his wife as well, some equally disgusting in the equilvant sort of sense. At least one or two 'affair' attacks are common in a comment section of a major article as a general 'look at this *blah blah* guys integrity, he left his crippled wife and kids blah blah"

[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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Originally posted by RosaL:

("Barbie A" and "Barbie B" isn't that far off, though.)

[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: RosaL ][/QB]

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I meant Mattel's Ken and Barbie. The doll analogy is weighted against women.

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Originally posted by ElizaQ:
...I think an argument about the overall quantity of it could be made about these sort of image attacks but to suggest that both men haven't received any or just a miniscule ammount (1%) of 'dress up' image ridicule just wouldn't stand up in a closer look, especially in comment sections like the example of this article.

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Obama's 'empty suit status', all image, no substance, fake, the false messiah was a main talking point of the entire Republican campaign and joke of republican supporters throughout the whole thing...

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
For sure. But many progressives DO project on Obama as figurehead qualities that his record and speeches often do not support. Would all this liberal racism-is-behind-us slapping of backs happen if it were Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice who had come out ahead in a contest?

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Of course they do and many conservatives are most definitly projecting a figurehead on Palin that her record and speeches do not support. Many of her supporters are projecting not only a figurehead status but an actual messiah(annointed one) status as well.

Not sure what your point is in reference to criticism from the opposites camps supporters. Are you suggesting that if that is the sort of image that Obama projects and is embraced by his supporters that it's okay to ridicule it because perhaps there is some truth in the falseness of it?

[ 04 November 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]

I'm very glad that McCain suffered a crushing defeat, a humiliation he deserved for selecting Palin as his running mate. Very clearly, part of his rationale for doing so was to court disenchanted female Hillary Clinton supporters. Quite obviously, he has a very low opinion of women if he could not see that despite the fact that they both have breasts and a vagina, there is a very noticeable and crucial difference - Hillary, who I don't like, is an intelligent woman and Palin is not.

I fear that amongst the Neanderthal population, McCain's choice of Palin may have hurt the chances of future female candidates. Bill Maher spoke of this before when he pointed out that male candidates do not have to answer for every lunatic or incompetent male whereas for females it is the opposite. This is personal to me because I go through this in my work as an engineer. I don't know how many times I have had an ignoramus say to me that he had worked with a female engineer before and she was useless - as if that had anything to do with me - so why should he treat me with respect. When I point out to these guys that we have all worked with useless male engineers, most of them have a hard time seeing the point. Men are judged individually and women are judged collectively.

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Originally posted by Michelle:
Seriously? Michelle Obama said it was Hillary's fault that Bill couldn't keep his fly zipped?

I think I'd like to see some proof of that one. Got a link or anything? I've never heard that before.

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Apparently some are taking this comment below of Michelle Obama's to be a slap against Hillary, and it was started by Matt Drudge in the Drudge report.

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“If you can’t run your own house, you certainly can’t run the White House”

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I think she was just talking about role modeling along the same lines as her husband's Father's Day homily, talking about the importance of family and the joint effort between the government, whose responsibility is to help everyone, especially those falling behind, have enough resources they need to live with dignity, and the family, whose responsibility it is to instill good values in children, with parents as good role models and teachers for their kids.

It was a recurring theme in many of his and her speeches (one night I spent a few hours watching all the videos on the Obama web site).

I could be wrong on this one, however, and maybe it was a "dog whistle" thing where she was trying to make people think about Clinton without coming right out and saying it. But if it was, then it was a dumb move, because if anything, the Clinton family didn't break up or go into disarray over it - they pulled together and weathered the storm, and at least publicly, they definitely "have it together".

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]

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Originally posted by Michelle:
[QB]I watched that whole speech on the Obama campaign web site. I'm pretty sure that phrase was taken out of context, and that it didn't have anything to do with Clinton. I remember being pretty eagle-eyed during the primaries for sexism against Clinton, and I think I would have twigged to that immediately if it had been in that context.

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I vaguely remember this 'controversy' and imo the sexism contained within it was the attempt to manufacture a fight between the two women by taking quotes from Michelle Obama and Clinton and quoting them out of context on a number of occasions. This did come originally from Drudge and was his interpretation that people just flew with until it became the 'truth' as it moved further from the source.
I remember reading things about the speculation about the Hillary and Michelle 'cat-fight' that was happening behind the scenes.

Her words:

"I feel like I got my future back, I was in my 30's when it all came tumbling down."

She went to say when Martin Luther King Jr, Bobby Kennedy, and Malcolm X were killed, that our future of equality, cooperation and mutal understanding were killed along with them and that now that promising future is again before us. She noted that they were reconcillers, not dividers and that in fact the peoples of the world have been divided since their murders, and that now the world has hope again for reconcilliation and cooperation.

Moreover, she stated that it matters not that there are 2 men who will be leading the USA, as their words and message of father's involvement in the lives and caring for their children in a positive equal way, and their focus on what being a good man really is and means, more than makes up for the abscence of a woman leader, an that they are the role models and messangers of change for men and for women's equality rights.

Of course, I am paraphrasing in the last instances, and what she said was much more powerful than what I have recounted. As she was able to articulate just what is so poignant about this Obama win, and how it transcends the historical race barrier being broken.

Perhaps we may just have our future back, though it is hard to set aside cynicism and mistrust.

Steinhem's words floored me too, as I did not actually realize, or rather could not find the words to express what happened in 1968. But now I realize that is what happened.

"our future" was murdered too.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

And your guilt by association for all Obama supporters is very Rovian. To link a bunch of random anonymous comments to the entire campaign is also ridiculous.

Far worse things are said every day in comment boards everywhere on the internet. And these usually by teenagers in basements. No howls of protest there.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I remember a number of observers making the point, when Hillary Clinton was the female being trounced, that Obama trumped her on so-called feminine values.
Today, on Oprah, reminds tells us that Steinem "stated that it matters not that there are 2 men who will be leading the USA, as their words and message of father's involvement in the lives and caring for their children in a positive equal way, and their focus on what being a good man really is and means, more than makes up for the absence of a woman leader."
I find this unsettling for a number of reasons. Is the best woman for the job a man? Is the best U.S. women can hope for is a good man, one more father image, men as moral icons?

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

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No that's not what she was saying at all there's more to the context of that statement. They came within reference to the article she wrote after Palin was announced and some of the controversy of her being accused of not siding with a woman, because she was a woman so it wasn't a statement that had to do with women leaders in general but to the specifics of this actual election. I'm going by memory here because I can't find a transcript yet.

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I think it's probably best that if there is a indepth debate like this about her comments that they be taken in it's entire context as they are basically only reminds and I's paraphrasing.

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I agree. But it's a real issue.

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The election of President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Joe Biden was a big victory for women, Gloria says. "To have two men in the national leadership … who actually are the first two in my lifetime to talk about male responsibility for children through policy and also personally, that is of huge, huge importance to women."

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Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It seems to me that anyone can make up her or his mind as to whether remind's paraphrase of Steinem's words and my questions point to a significant issue.
For the record - from Oprah's website, summarizing that part of her program:

She also credits Hillary Clinton for "being a real soldier for Barack Obama".

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And yet that snippet is still not in context of the entire conversation and does not jive with your unsettling conclusion that the in that statement she was suggesting that somehow that the 'best woman for the job is a man' or leading to some sort of feeling that 'this was the best women could hope for.'

It's not even close.

What she was saying was in reference to two SPECIFIC men, not men as leaders in general, and frankly I agree that if what she says about them specifically is actually true then that is a good thing for women and men as well.

Now in taking your questions as an actual issue separate from her comments the answers are easy.