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Author Topic: BBS Flame Warz
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 22 April 2001 04:09 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why do they happen, where do they happen, and how can we make sure they don't happen on babble?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LEX
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 61

posted 22 April 2001 12:55 PM      Profile for LEX     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They happen because a few individuals can't responsibly exercise the 'freedom to speak.'
There are some people who are a few bricks short of a full load. Shit happens.

The only defensible response to Flame Warz is censorship --- or, if you prefer, to exercise your editorial responsibilities.
As numbers continue to grow, this process (if done equitably) becomes formidable.

Commercially sponsored BBSs are reluctant to censor --- for reasons which need not be spelled out. Babble has no such reasons.

But one way or another, the odd piece of flaming bovine excrement will slide by --- whereupon you simply remove it --- with explanation, of course.

No charge!


From: Toronto On | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 23 April 2001 05:14 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, flame wars are a pretty narrow aspect of net-culture but half a loaf is better than none.

Most moards have an ignore feature and for some reason few people use them. If you are controvercial and find yourself on the other end of popular opinion (as I often am) people can get their passion up and give you (in their opinion) a damn good tuning in. So you can either respond in kind or as I TRY to do respond with what you feel is support for your point of view.

I think many people take these message boards far too seriously and get all hot under the collar when someone disputes what they put forth as fact.

A sure way to kill any thread is to moderate the hell out of it. Some of my favorite boards have no topic at all. Just chitchat about anything that becomes conversational. I understand the need to keep on topic but the very nature of conversation is to be fluid and in the course of events sway back and forth as examples from other areas are provided to bolster an opinion.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
LEX
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 61

posted 24 April 2001 11:35 AM      Profile for LEX     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I dunno Slick Willy.

Many of the Message Boards/BBSs I have visited have been reduced to rubble (as opposed to rabble) by egocentric rants from wannabe prophets, gurus etc. or to inanities and idle chatter by folks who have lots of time.

Some of us are interested in focussed, on-topic, rational, civil and meaningful discourse which may contribute toward disclosure of the the public interest. Getting that kind of Board going requires discipline from participants and from moderators. Yes, we all have "the right to speak or minds" but, regrettably, in some instances, we must wonder if there is any mind involved at all.

Flame Warz are infantile tantrums. We all know that. But they take up time and space. They offend and disparage contrary opinion.
Rambling chit chat, off subject, is distraction. There are many Boards which allow for and indeed encourage rambling chit chat --- even as an 'art form.'

It seems to me rabble.ca and babblers should remain civil and focussed. No over-moderation necessary. Do we agree?


From: Toronto On | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 25 April 2001 02:10 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"It seems to me rabble.ca and babblers should remain civil and focussed. No over-moderation necessary. Do we agree?"

As you wish.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 25 April 2001 10:46 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It might sound obnoxious, but I, too would appreciate it if the long-windedness could be a little less so. I know people can't speak in soundbites, but grandstanding gets exasperating, too. As of yet, I'm the only administrator on these boards, so everything is pretty much my responsibility. I'll work in the next week towards drafting up some guidelines, and a better FAQ.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 25 April 2001 11:15 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have to laugh at the idea of opening a message board and asking people not to talk so much on one hand, and complain about hAcKeRz who use short cuts on the other.
L8r d00dZ.

From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
idlewild
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 28

posted 25 April 2001 01:49 PM      Profile for idlewild   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think audra's just asking us to post judiciously. With moderation, even. So that she can moderate more moderately.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 25 April 2001 02:31 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly, idlewild. I'm paid for less than 20 hours a week, Slick Willy. I can't spend all of them reading your messages.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 25 April 2001 03:58 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Exactly, idlewild. I'm paid for less than 20 hours a week, Slick Willy. I can't spend all of them reading your messages."

I would be happy to share some tips to help you monitor messages on the board Audra. All you need to do is ask.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 25 April 2001 05:40 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't need "tips", I need to read them all. Even the ones that put me in a seething rage.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
spad
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 18

posted 28 April 2001 10:57 PM      Profile for spad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i don't know if it says something telling about me or not...but if i am reading boards and i come across a reply that is over a page long...i tend to wander away. especially if it is hyper emotional rather than rational.

i can completely understand your desire not to have to slog through dozens of those a day Audra.

flame wars....i prefer a minimalist version of moderation i guess. but eventually, people can start to be destructive in a discussion rather than constructive. Attacking rather than discussing. I think that i am willing to trust a mod to jump in where necessary. You know, a rational mod that isn't stifling the conversation either.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dan Bashaw
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 401

posted 06 May 2001 04:32 PM      Profile for Dan Bashaw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
FWIW, perhaps there is a technical 'solution' to the flame problem. How about optional filters assigned by the thread moderator? Users could choose to have 'flame' or 'bozo' or 'deals with space aliens' filters on or off.

Admittedly the censorship is still present, but at least users could have the option of turning it on or off. Kind of like Slashdot's peer review process but easier to administer.

Some boards (CMAQ comes to mind) suffer from flame and disruption to the point where they become unusable. Hope it doesn't happen to Babble.


From: Victoria, BC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 07 May 2001 11:04 AM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've heard these boards, which are unmoderated, are pretty bad. 10 page threads? I have no patience for that.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gayle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 37

posted 07 May 2001 03:40 PM      Profile for Gayle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've got less patience for frames. Especially when you add in animated gifs. Kill me. Kill me now.
From: Cape Breton, Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 08 May 2001 02:51 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"10 page threads? I have no patience for that."

Patience is a virtue.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
denise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 49

posted 08 May 2001 06:47 PM      Profile for denise   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never read all of big long posts. I try, and a few paragraphs in, I get bored no matter how cool or informative the post is. I also never read threads that go more than two pages. (or sometimes even one page.) I always thought it was a weakness to be ashamed of, but maybe I'm not alone...

[ May 08, 2001: Message edited by: denise ]


From: halifax, ns | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 08 May 2001 07:08 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are a lot of other virtues I have no patience for either, Slick Willy.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Athena Dreaming
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 435

posted 09 May 2001 10:48 AM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The NOW boards, which Audra linked to, are continually discussed on the Ms. Magazine site as an example of what happens when an unmoderated board is invaded by trolls. It ain't pretty.

Re: Flame Wars. I think we have to accept that human conflict is normal and that there's no way everyone will always get along with each other. What I've seen that works is if a discussion is getting heated or personal, take it *off* the boards. Continue it via email if you must, but don't drag it out in public so everyone else has to watch. This of course assumes that the parties in conflict are reasonable human beings with concern for other people.

If they're not, they're trolls, and you either ban them or they continue to show up and make life miserable for everyone.


From: GTA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 09 May 2001 04:50 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do not agree with censorship. I have found time and time again that the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. But most people are incapable of that, for some reason.

I get into very few flame wars because I don't respond to flames. It's simple.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 13 May 2001 01:31 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"There are a lot of other virtues I have no patience for either, Slick Willy."

We all have our demons to battle Audra.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
CraigHubley
unregistered

posted 13 May 2001 01:55 PM           Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moderation is the only answer.

An open board is an open board and you can only rely on etiquette, which has to develop on its own through many mistakes. I think it is important to specifically enable the dissenting point of view, especially when the majority seems to be stuck (e.g. since there are more NDPers than Greens on here but the NDP seems unable to win an election or even a seat in Toronto I think it's time to put more hardcore Green points of view up)

That, for example, may anger dino-socialists who will want to go "gronk" and stomp on me. However, I must be tolerated as a small mammal if only because I am eating your eggs, and that is the only chance you have for immortality, by providing calories to us.


IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 156

posted 14 May 2001 12:32 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One fellow continued in a personal vein via email. I gave him a C+ and suggested remedial grammar. He hasn't yet written back.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 184

posted 14 May 2001 05:35 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like to consult the bible when the flamewars heat up.
Flamers Bible

From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
clersal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 370

posted 14 May 2001 06:00 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Slick Willy you made my day. I just read the Flamers Bible and I am still giggling.
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 15 May 2001 11:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Me too. It also gave me the courage to try flaming myself, just this once, just a little flame -- fettucine alfredo! -- there! I've done it! Didn't hurt at all!
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 21 May 2001 01:29 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What in the world does fettucine alfredo have to do with.. flaming?

(BAD JOKE ALERT - Well, OK, if that fettucine were made by a gay man. )


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 569

posted 21 May 2001 01:43 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used the term ad hominem in a reply to Peter J. Savoie -- but I can be excused because I'm a law student, and we talk that gibberish -- right?

I think that often people may even agree with the rules of a BBS, but not realize when they're crossing the line. Examples are always a good idea. I would suggest a different FAQ for posting ettiquette that explained the rules with examples (like the one Audra posted elsewhere). If there's anything law school has taught me, it's that rules are great, but examples are even better.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
beachcomber
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 678

posted 29 May 2001 04:02 PM      Profile for beachcomber   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Audra, I strongly recommend you go over to Ms. and talk to Ann-Marie. She's the moderator/Webmstress there and her boards are a wonder to behold. She doesn't over moderate, mostly lets members inform her if there's a problem brewing. That seems to work well for her and for the boards. The Ms. boards are fairly huge, and there's no way she or even a team of moderators could handle reading every thread.

Another thing to maybe keep in mind .. you are the moderator. You don't have to explain your actions if you choose to ban a troll. If someone is banned, chances are they and the members already know why. Besides, the rules are posted, and we all agreed to them.
Just my $0.02.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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