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Author Topic: Protesting/Petitioning CBC
Adam T
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posted 22 January 2005 07:47 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of my biggest pet peeves is the amount of classical music CBC FM plays. Don't get me wrong, I like classical music. But, doesn't
the CBC have a broader mandate?

When it comes to the magazine industry, the federal government says they need protection so that "Canadian stories can be told to
Canadians".

Well, with respect to Brahms or Beethoven, what "Canadian stories" are told when their music is played, even if it is played by
Canadian Orchestras?

The CBC, especially CBC Radio FM, is a unique institution in Canada. It alone has an opportunity to play music by up and coming
Canadian artists, especially those in more alternative fields like alt.country, jazz..., without worrying about the commercial
viability of the music they are playing. Yet, what does the network do? They stick those artists on the AM format for a few hours a
week while reserving the FM format for classical music almost 24/7.

How many people listen to the AM format for music?

I think it's time CBC FM started playing artists like Sarah Slean, Ron Sexmith, Mike Plume and even a whole bunch of unsigned artists.

I'm not really sure how to get a petition going, but if you're with me, let's figure it out.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 January 2005 08:09 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Espace Musique, http://www.radiocanada.ca/radio2/ has a much broader playlist - still lots of classical (sorry, I am fond of it, especially early and baroque) but more jazz, song, world music, "musiques émergentes" etc.

I'm not sure I'd be particularly fond of your playlist though.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 22 January 2005 08:18 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:

I think it's time CBC FM started playing artists like Sarah Slean, Ron Sexmith, Mike Plume and even a whole bunch of unsigned artists.


Doesn't Radio Two still play underground music late at night?

A better idea (though probably not feasible in this fiscal climate) would be to have a third network, like Triple J in Australia.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 22 January 2005 10:56 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't there a Radio 3 in some markets? Or have I been imagining their webmagazine?

They do play non-classical music after hours, ie late at night after prime time. Just Concerts, New Music Canada stuff, Ross Porter used to do a jazz show but I think they've got someone new on now, that sort of thing.

Frankly, I would like to see more varied daytime programming. Classical music, sure, fine, but why not play other genres during the daytime? There's got to be a market for it.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 22 January 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Radio 3 isn't really radio- just RealAudio.
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aRoused
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posted 22 January 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, I just went over there and figured it out. (Spot the guy who's overseas)

Pity, I know it's my best source for (Can-con) streaming audio when I'm working at my desk.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 22 January 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam T, I was thinking about Jurgen Gothe who's on Radio Two every weekday from 3-6 (I think) and who plays what's usually called an "eclectic mix" but I would say, no classical. Then, on Sunday afternoon, there's the grandly named OnStage which used to be mostly classical but I find now, as often as not, it's jazz. On Sunday evening, there's a world music program. Right now, I'm listening to Robert Harris who happens to be doing "The Secret Beethoven" today but who often does jazz and classic pop -- always with some kind of a theme. And of course (and I know there are those who don't like him) there's Stuart MacLean.

So if you look around, you will be able to find some non-classical programs.


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Ron Webb
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posted 22 January 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's tough for a radio station to be "all things to all people". Personally, I don't listen to classical music all that much, but it's good background music while I'm working. It's also great for relaxing, and I find very little relaxing music is being written or recorded these days -- modern music is all about pounding drumbeats and screaming lyrics. (God, I sound like an ol' fart, don't I? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy modern music too, but not all the time.)

My understanding of the mandate of the CBC is to provide niche programming that is not viable on commercial stations. IMHO classical music, and relaxing music in general, form a large part of that mandate. In both cases, cutting in every five minutes with some brash announcer trying to sell me something would destroy the mood and defeat the purpose of the program.

So I think classical music is entirely appropriate for CBC Radio. We could argue whether there's too much of it, though, and I think making some room on the airwaves for unsigned and less-known Canadian artists is a great idea and well within the mandate.

My only concern is, who gets to pick the artists? There are so many of them, and by definition they aren't well-known. How to track them down, how to separate the truly talented from the merely mediocre?

If you can answer those questions, you have the makings of a good CBC radio program. Why don't you contact the CBC?

[ 22 January 2005: Message edited by: Ron Webb ]


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aRoused
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posted 22 January 2005 01:59 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
modern music is all about pounding drumbeats and screaming lyrics.

Errrr..I'm just going to put this down here, and walk away, and if you happen to listen to it, that's just fine.

New Music Canada Singer/Songwriter section


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 22 January 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Doesn't Radio Two still play underground music late at night?

Big deal, the CBC plays it during the hours when hardly anybody is listening. If you think that is fair, then lets switch the classical music to that time slot and the underground music to the prime time slot. If it's fair, it should be no big deal.

quote:
My understanding of the mandate of the CBC is to provide niche programming that is not viable on commercial stations. IMHO classical music, and relaxing music in general, form a large part of that mandate. In both cases, cutting in every five minutes with some brash announcer trying to sell me something would destroy the mood and defeat the purpose of the program.

Why would cutting out, or reducing classical music, lead to some announcer coming on every 5 minutes? There is a disconnect in your argument.

you do raise two other points though:
1."Classical music is a large part of the mandate". Why? there are many other forms of music, what makes classical so special?

2.Regarding the viability. I've been to some parts of the U.S (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Los Angeles) and I believe every one of those cities has a private classical radio station. Seattle and Portland are both approximately the same size as Vancouver. In fact, for a while, Vancouver had a private classical radio station too, but it couldn't compete with the CBC. The 'niche' argument is far stronger on my side, that of giving lesser known Canadian artists a chance to be heard.

I think when you have what should be the mandate that I pointed out above: the ability to allow current Canadian artists, beyond the handful in the mainstream, to have their music played on a radio station, it should greatly outweigh any other mandate. The mandate of "Canadians being able to tell their own stories" certainly seems to be important enough to the government that they impose it on every private media outlet, (television requirements, CanCon, print media ownership rules), so I certainly think CBC radio should do its part.

Classical music gets far more than Disc Drive on the CBC. It is also played from at least most of 8:00 AM (or earlier possibly) to 3:00 PM here in Vancouver (I don't know about the rest of the country) and it is usually played after the
6:00-6:30 PM news too.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 22 January 2005 03:16 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
My only concern is, who gets to pick the artists? There are so many of them, and by definition they aren't well-known. How to track them down, how to separate the truly talented from the merely mediocre?

Well sure, this is always a valid problem. But, I don't know if it's all that much different than what private radio station programmers have to deal with when they are breaking new artists.

I believe NPR in the U.S also has a program for unsigned artists. So, it's not like these issues haven't been dealt with before.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 22 January 2005 03:24 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Why don't you contact the CBC?"

Well, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the CBC wouldn't be aware of the demands on their air time.

I'm sure they are bombarded by Canadian record labels asking them to play their music all the time.

My argument is also far from new. I debated this in my high school social studies (or history or whatever it was called) 15 years ago.

I don't normally hear imaginary conversations in my head. But, what annoys me is that I know some discussion like this must have gone on at the CBC head office "Drop the classical music from CBC? What? We play SERIOUS music here"

It's that elitist crap attitude that really bothers me.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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posted 22 January 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The other word for DiscDrive, besides eclectic, would be soporific.

With a nod to lagatta, I've switched to French CBC radio, which has a much broader slate of programs--from classical to funk. And because the dj's are French, I get to feel all cultured, no matter what the music. Extra value if you don't understand French: they could be saying incredible banalities, and yet there's no incentive to yell at the radio. It all sounds pleasing to the ear. And pleasing is not the same as precious, Mr. Gothe's spécialité.

.

[ 22 January 2005: Message edited by: bittersweet ]


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 January 2005 04:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that version of "I'll be seeing you" that they closed DNTO with today should be protested. GOD was that BAD. Martha someone-or-other singing - I cringed through the whole thing. Like, find a frigging pitch and LAND on it. Oh, and try to make it the RIGHT pitch, howzabout?

BLEAH.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 22 January 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was listening to the opera on Radio Two lah-de-dah.
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bobolink
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posted 22 January 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that CBC operates two national services in English, CBC One and CBC Two. In many geographic areas, CBC Two is the only alternative to commercial pop music on the dial. I think CBC Two is fulfilling its mandate. If you want to listen to a more general non-commercial music scene, there is always CBC One and, in the big cities, the university radio stations which have very eclectic programming.
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Buttle
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posted 22 January 2005 04:58 PM      Profile for Buttle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I love Radio 2.

Probably though, it's time for a Radio 3. Call the already existing "internet CBC radio" something else.

Radio 3 would be an all-music format like Radio 2 but much more eclectic, broadcasting music from the early blues, Tin Pan Alley songwriters, Jazz, "World Music", contemporary classical composers, and groups like the Rheostatics, Sigur Ros, etc.

How does that grab you?

We can begin the push for this right here, you know.


From: my power is of the kind that belongs exclusively to those without power | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 22 January 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
Errrr..I'm just going to put this down here, and walk away, and if you happen to listen to it, that's just fine.

New Music Canada Singer/Songwriter section



For some reason the music won't play on my laptop, but next time I'm at my desktop computer I'll try again. Thanks for the link.

Let me clarify, though: what I'm saying is that in the last few decades popular music has virtually ignored the whole genre of "easy listening". Almost all music on commercial radio is vocal, virtally no instrumental music at all. And the vocals are always sung with strong emotions of some sort -- love, anger, heartache, etc. Where's the Bert Kaempferts and the Bing Crosbys (not to say Perry Comos) of today? What modern music can truly be called "relaxing"?


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 22 January 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam T, classical music is "special" because of its format. Symphonies are generally most of an hour long. Even the individual movements can be twenty minutes or more, and by tradition are separated by silence (or a brief retuning of instruments)-- no applause, no talking, and certainly no huckster trying to sell me something. You say that commercial classical stations do exist. Are you sure you're not thinking of public broadcasters? If you know of a truly commercial station playing classical music, I'd love to hear about it.

Mandates do not "outweigh" one another. Your idea of promoting up-and-coming Canadian talent is a good one, and I agree that the CBC should be doing more of it. And I might agree that they could cut down a bit on the classical stuff to make room for it. But it's not either/or: there's plenty of air time to address both mandates.

The problem of finding and selecting talented performers is not new, but I think that the CBC is in a slightly different situation than private radio stations. The CBC is responsible to Canadians as a whole, and they need to be as fair and balanced as possible. (Lord knows they get roasted often enough over that issue as it is.) If they simply appoint a music promoter and have him/her arbitrarily pick winners and losers, there'd be hell to pay. Private stations, on the other hand, face no such problems. There are always dozens of performers beating on their doors wanting to be played. The station picks a few likely ones and tells the others tough luck. End of story.

I've no doubt that Canadian and other record labels are constantly pushing music on the CBC -- and I hope the CBC resists all such attempts at self-promotion by commercial interests. I hope and believe that the CBC listens instead to Canadians -- people like you -- who call, write, and e-mail their suggestions. One thing I can guarantee: if you don't voice your opinions, you will be ignored.

As for "that elitist crap attitude", what makes you think so? Or is classical music elitist crap by definition?


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 22 January 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ron, private classical radio stations:

WCRB-FM 102.5 Boston, MA
WBOQ-FM 104.9 Boston, MA
WQXR-FM 96.3 New York City, NY
WGMS-FM 103.5 Washington, DC
WTMI-FM 93.1 Miami, FL
WCLV-FM 95.9 Cleveland, OH
WFMT-FM 98.7 Chicago, IL
WFMR-FM 98.3 Milwaukee, WI
KFUO-FM 99.1 St. Louis, MO
KXTR-FM 96.5 Kansas City, MO
WRR-FM 101.1 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX
KRTS-FM 92.1 Houston, TX
KKHI-FM 100.7 San Francisco, CA
KDFC-FM 102.1 San Francisco, CA
KBOQ-FM 95.5 Monterey, CA
KZMT-FM 105.1 Los Angeles, CA
KFSD-FM 92.1 San Diego, CA
KING-FM 98.1 Seattle, WA
KLEF-FM 98.1 Anchorage, AK
CKMX-FM 96.3 Toronto, ON
CFMX-FM1 103.1 Cobourg, ON (fed from main studios in Toronto)
CHLX-FM 97.1 Ottawa-Hull, ON (French-language)
CJPX-FM 99.5 Montreal, QC (French-language)
CJJX-FM 91.9 Quebec City, QC (French-language)

http://www.scena.org/Tms/Tms1-1/resurgence.htm

quote:
Mandates do not "outweigh" one another. Your idea of promoting up-and-coming Canadian talent is a good one, and I agree that the CBC should be doing more of it. And I might agree that they could cut down a bit on the classical stuff to make room for it. But it's not either/or: there's plenty of air time to address both mandates.

If the mandate of the CBC is to play music that is not heard on other stations, it certainly isn't even handed. It's 90% classical.

What about other genres like jazz, alt.country, alt.rock, blues, world music. If the CBC is even handed, why are all these genres relegated to one night a week or late night?

University radio stations have very limited ranges and are usually poor quality. To say they are equal to the broadcast capacity of the CBC is nonsense. Again, if you think they are equal you should have no problem switching then. Put the classical on the university stations and put the university playlist on the CBC.

quote:
As for "that elitist crap attitude", what makes you think so? Or is classical music elitist crap by definition?

I think I said I didn't specifically have any evidence for it, but I've been around classical music lovers (I like a fair bit of classical myself) and I know their attitude of "our music is SERIOUS and is better than your music."

I have no doubt the programmers at CBC FM have that exact same attitude.

quote:
Radio 3 would be an all-music format like Radio 2 but much more eclectic, broadcasting music from the early blues, Tin Pan Alley songwriters, Jazz, "World Music", contemporary classical composers, and groups like the Rheostatics, Sigur Ros, etc.

How does that grab you?


In the era of budget cuts, a radio 3 is simply not going to happen.

It's interesting, when it comes to private radio and tv broadcasters, New Democrats have no problem imposing the government in order to 'ensure Canadian voices are heard'. When it comes to CBC radio and the beloved Classical music, the babblers don't seem to be as self sacrificing.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jeit
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posted 23 January 2005 03:19 AM      Profile for Jeit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's face it, classical music is the best and until something comes along that's better, they'll continue to play it.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 January 2005 03:48 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to listen to CBC Stereo's "Brave New Waves" and "Night Waves" quite often. Now I listen to Jurgen Goth in the afternoon and Tom Allen in the morning, and I wouldn't want the CBC to change a thing.

They've already ruined CBC AM by trying to be hip and cool.

By the way, I heard some purty good new Canadian Garage Rock on CBC 2 tonight...and then some Techno whatsis later on.

If you want to hear alt. rock during the daytime, why not check out your local College/Community Radio station? If you don't like what you hear, try to put together a show of your own.

From my experience, if you have a relatively good ear, can string two words together and have a discernable pulse, community radio will let you have a program.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 23 January 2005 04:14 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it smart to make the AM station "hip and cool"? Seriously it's AM -- AM is the perfect format for talk or oldies. I have to say I'm with Adam here argument wise.

It's not as if classical music is quintsentially Canadian. And that's the point of the CBC, to showcase Canadian artists. I don't see why a Private Station couldn't play classical music exclusivley. And it's not as if the CBC would ban it from it's airwaves, if the music is an original Canadian peiece I would hope they would showcase it thus fullfilling their mandate.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 23 January 2005 06:16 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But it's not either/or: there's plenty of air time to address both mandates.

Exactly. There's plenty of time to address all these mandates, but only one of them can be heard, consistently and constantly, from, what, about 7AM through to 5PM when the news comes on? And then maybe a bit more until the kiddies are in bed and then we can give you newer stuff. That's not 'plenty of time to address all', that's 'we're a classic FM station by day, and an alt.rock/jazz station in the wee hours of the morning when everyone's asleep and can't hear us.'


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 23 January 2005 07:23 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The problem of finding and selecting talented performers is not new, but I think that the CBC is in a slightly different situation than private radio stations. The CBC is responsible to Canadians as a whole, and they need to be as fair and balanced as possible. (Lord knows they get roasted often enough over that issue as it is.) If they simply appoint a music promoter and have him/her arbitrarily pick winners and losers, there'd be hell to pay. Private stations, on the other hand, face no such problems. There are always dozens of performers beating on their doors wanting to be played. The station picks a few likely ones and tells the others tough luck. End of story.

Ron, I appreciate you are trying to be helpful, so I probably shouldn't be as rude to you as I probably am about to be.

But, you come across to me the exact same as Sir Humphry Appleby in Yes, Minister; latching onto every red herring in order to ensure that nothing is ever changed.

The fact of the matter is your concern is nothing but a red herring. How do I know this? Because the CBC already has a show that does what I'm saying they should do. A link to it was posted above:

http://www.newmusiccanada.com/genres/subgenre.cfm?Genre_Id=13&PartOf_Genre_Id=8&mode=

I was not aware of this program when I first posted the thread, as I usually attend the UBC for a lecture series on Saturday evenings. All I'm arguing is that this program should be expanded to 5-7 nights a week. It strikes me that this fits more into what is, or should be the mandate of the CBC rather than playing music composed by dead, white Europeans.

DNTO should also be moved onto the FM band. Nobody I know likes listening to music on the AM dial. Having DNTO on AM is an insult to non classical music lovers and fits into my argument that the CBC is staffed by classical music elitists who think their music is "SERIOUS" and is better than everything else.

quote:
If you want to hear alt. rock during the daytime, why not check out your local College/Community Radio station? If you don't like what you hear, try to put together a show of your own.

I've addressed this argument above. University radio stations generally have low wattage and the sound quality is very poor. Like I've also argued above, if you think that is a fair solution, then you should have no problem putting the present CBC 2 lineup onto the university station and moving the university playlist onto the CBC.

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: Adam T ]

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 January 2005 09:47 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam, deal with your link that is causing such dreadful sidescroll.

Your cultural criteria scare me quite a bit. I remember the days here when everything had to be Québécois in the way you are talking about "Canadian". Classical music has a lot of cultural resonance for many people here. And yes, a lot of relevant "stories".

CBC and Radio-Canada scrupulously follow Can-con rules.

Nowadays I'd like to expand that to the classical and traditional musics from sources other than European. As I've said, Espace musique has made a lot of progress in broadening its playlist, while retaining "flow", and programming an audience will actually listen to. There is a difference between pandering to the lowest common denominator for ratings and actual concern with people listening to your programmes. I listen to Radio-Canada and CBC while I'm working at my computer. I don't want a soporific jukebox like Montréal's "Radio Classique" (mostly the same old waltzes and easy-listening classics) but no, I don't want extreme dissonance under those circumstances.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 23 January 2005 10:09 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Vansterdam Kid:
Is it smart to make the AM station "hip and cool"? Seriously it's AM -- AM is the perfect format for talk or oldies. I have to say I'm with Adam here argument wise.

Radio One is not always AM. In Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Halifax and other places, Radio One is FM.

I think chances of launching a 3rd broadcast network are slim and none. Analog radio is a (slowly) dying medium, and the costs of starting a national network are enormous.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 23 January 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Your cultural criteria scare me quite a bit. I remember the days here when everything had to be Québécois in the way you are talking about "Canadian".

I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm saying that artists/composers living in Canada should be given preference on the CBC. "Quebecois" referred to the idea that certain people (I.E old stock) living in Quebec should be considered more "Quebec" than newer citizens. I'm not suggesting any Canadian should be treated any differently than any other Canadian. I completely fail to see how you analagy holds.


quote:
Classical music has a lot of cultural resonance for many people here. And yes, a lot of relevant "stories".

So does blues music, folk music, Irish jig music, West Indian Music, alt.country, alt.rock. .. I can't speak for the French CBC, but the people at Radio 2 seems to think that certain 'cultural resonance' is more worthy of getting played than other 'cultural resonance'.

I didn't say no classical music should be played, but if people here are serious when they say that all 'niche genres' should be played on the CBC, it shouldn't get any where near the time it does.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 January 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What you say about Québec - even in the 1970s - is not necessarily true:
----------
"I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm saying that artists/composers living in Canada should be given preference on the CBC. "Quebecois" referred to the idea that certain people (I.E old stock) living in Quebec should be considered more "Quebec" than newer citizens. I'm not suggesting any Canadian should be treated any differently than any other Canadian. I completely fail to see how you analagy holds".
---------

Certainly not for Gérald Godin or any of the progressives in the nationalist movement (such as the trade unionists, Pauline Julien, etc.) They wrote a lot against racism and an "ethnic" approach to nationalism. We won't go into the historical reasons for Québécois national movements - doubt we'd agree. I think even historically justified national movements can become very narrow.

My point was that I find your Canadian content rules most stifling. I can't say much about anglophone Canadian content as here the point would be Québec content - yes, including Corneille, Luck Mervil and lots of non "pure laine" performers. But I wouldn't want to listen to a radio that played only Québécois or only anglophone-Canadian artists, although I agree that promoting domestic talent is an important part of a public broadcaster's mandate.

Do you ever listen to Espace Musique?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 January 2005 02:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
DNTO should also be moved onto the FM band.

DNTO should be put on an ice floe and moved into Hudson Bay.


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Michelle
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posted 23 January 2005 05:21 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's weird to hear people talk about FM Band and AM Band for Radio One and Two, since both are FM where I live.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 23 January 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all, Adam T, thanks very much for that list of classical stations. I listened to two hours of WQXR this afternoon, and it's great -- gonna be on my Favourites list for sure.

According to their Web site WQXR is "New York City’s only commercial classical radio station." The fact that one of the continent's most densely populated regions can support only one classical station tells you something already. also, in the two hours I listened, I think I heard one reference to a commercial advertiser, and that was just a brief mention by the announcer. So they're not staying on air by virtue of their broadcast ad revenue.

So where do they get the money? Well, if you're not in the New york City area, the only way to listen is on the Internet: via Radio@Netscape, which allows two hours per day maximum -- after which a message pops up inviting you to subscribe to the stream via AOL.

The only English language Canadian station on your list was CKMX, which apparently is no longer in operation (can some Torontonian please tune to 96.3 FM and confirm?). Either that or it morphed into CKMS, a campus radio station from U of Waterloo.

Admittedly I only checked two of the stations on the list, but I stand by my opinion that no commercial station could survive for long in Canada (certainly not here in Winnipeg). The ones that exist in the U.S. do so through other revenue sources. Without CBC FM, most Canadians would hear little or no classical music on their radios. And that's because the commercial broadcast radio format does not lend itself to the genre, not because the demand for it does not exist.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 23 January 2005 05:37 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
The fact of the matter is your concern is nothing but a red herring. How do I know this? Because the CBC already has a show that does what I'm saying they should do. A link to it was posted above...
Sorry, call me dense but I can't figure out what show you're talking about. The link takes me to a web page posted by aRoused of new music (which I will be checking out shortly), but no reference to CBC programs that I can see.

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Ron Webb
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posted 23 January 2005 05:48 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By the way, I'm not saying that nothing should change about the CBC. On the contrary, I'm sincere when I agree with Adam T that the CBC could be doing more to promote Canadian talent. I'm just reacting to the contention by you and others that classical music does not belong on the CBC. IMHO one of the important mandates of the CBC is to provide services in niche markets which commercial radio can't or won't -- and classical music fits that criterion very well.

I also agree with al-Qa'bong that "they've already ruined CBC AM by trying to be hip and cool." DNTO is a prime example. I listen to DNTO occasionally, but mainly for the commentary on pop culture and other issues. Unless they play it as an illustration of some cultural phenomenon under discussion, I regard the music as an annoying interruption.

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: Ron Webb ]


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Adam T
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posted 23 January 2005 07:52 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ron,

From the New Music Canada website:
Hear new music on the airwaves every weekend! It's a slice of CBC Radio 3 on Radio 2, Saturdays (7:30pm-4am) & Sundays (mid-4am)!

I gather this is fairly new on CBC Radio 2 given that I'm pretty sure they were playing something rather different at around 8 PM on Saturdays fairly recently.

Anyway, as you can see, it's 2 days a week mainly in the hours when hardly anybody is listening.


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Bobolink
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posted 23 January 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam T, you already proved by your own efforts that there is only 1 English language clasical music radio station in all of Canada with transmitters in Cobourg and Toronto. All the other stations you list are American (the majority) or French language. How are the airwaves being runneth over with classical music?
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lagatta
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posted 23 January 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Adam, have you listened to Espace Musique? www.radiocanada.ca/radio2 It does have a more extended playlist. Actually I have several friends in the RoC who have adopted it - and not all are fluent in French by any means. They are playing jazz right now...

Yes, I am annoyed about what you said about us*, but that was not my point.

* i.e. I am by no means 100% "pure laine", but most definitely a Québécoise...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 23 January 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lagatta, I didn't say anything about you, or at least, I didn't mean to. I was merely commenting on the seperatist's idea that some Quebecers are more 'worthy' or whatever word you feel is appropriate than other Quebecers (this is not my idea), and saying how that was a completely innapropriate analogy to what I'm suggesting.

I think I have listened to the French CBC on occasion, the signal is pretty poor for some reason in the Vancouver area.

Bobolink, should it be a surprise that there are very few private classical stations in Canada when they would have to compete against CBC 2 which plays classical music commercial free almost 24/7?

In the Vancouver area, there is no FM folk music station, no blues music station, no world music station, no alt.country station, no alt.rock station, not even really a jazz station. If the CBC mandate is to play 'niche' music that can't survive in the private marketplace then when are all these other forms of music going to get equal consideration on the CBC? What makes classical so special other than the theory that it is "SERIOUS" music and is superior to all other forms of music?

Ron, New York City having only one classical radio station likely isn't indicitive of anything. The size of the city can't increase the size of the FM band.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 23 January 2005 09:21 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bobolink:
Adam T, you already proved by your own efforts that there is only 1 English language clasical music radio station in all of Canada with transmitters in Cobourg and Toronto.
Actually, unless/until someone in Toronto tunes to 96.3 and reports otherwise, IMHO there are none. I spent a good fifteen minutes searching the Internet for evidence that CFMX still exists, and every time I followed a link, I ended up either at some unrelated station in Calgary or at CFMS, that U of Waterloo campus station.

quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
In the Vancouver area, there is no FM folk music station, no blues music station, no world music station, no alt.country station, no alt.rock station, not even really a jazz station..
No, but I've heard all of those genres played on other stations plenty of times. I honestly don't recall a symphony on a private commercial station ever.

I think this debate is forcing both of us to polarize our opinions when in fact we're really not that far apart. We both agree that the CBC could do a better job in promoting other musical genres and Canadian artists in particular. We also agree (though you more strongly than me) that the CBC probably plays too much classical. And I support in principle the idea of the CBC seeking out and promoting unsigned artists. I'm just not sure how they would go about it.

[ 23 January 2005: Message edited by: Ron Webb ]


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candle
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posted 23 January 2005 09:56 PM      Profile for candle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Unfortunately for me, where i live the two closest univeristy radio stations are Queen's 101.9 and whatever the Trent station is. I can't get either of them because there signal doesn't travel that far. I do get several CBC feeds though. Our local community college has a radio station but unfortunatley, our local CC also has a broadcast journalism program so the the programming tends to be more "professional" and the playlist geared to commercial "alt rock". There is a good show on Thursday nights but that's about it for hearing new music. Unfortunately not all of us were able to pick up CFCU out of Carelton University when Shawn Scallen was managing it.

I used to listen to CBC 2 in the mid 90's though and it had some good new music - there were two shows on Saturday Night, Real Time with Leora Kornfeld and Nightlines with David Wisdom out of Vancouver. Wisdom was Canada's answer to John Peel and had an enormous record collection that may only have been rivalled in Canada by Jay Ferguson from sloan. Then they merged the two shows into Radiosonic and cut their hours. Looking at their schedule now, it looks like they run CBC Radio 3 (an indie music show) at 8:30 PM to 4:00 AM on CBC Radio 2 on Saturday Nights - I may have to tune in some night. Brave New Waves out of Montreal hosted initially by Brent Bambury and then by Patty Schmidt was good too but it was kind of hard to stay up to 3 AM on a weeknight if you had to work the next day. I've never caught DNTO since Sook Yin Lee took over. I used to catch it with the previous host and it always seemed boring. I do not from the website that the wonderful printjournalist Liisa Ladoucer stops by every once and a while so it can't be that bad.

Much Music used to be a good source for new music if you lived in a small town as City Limits and Indie Street were really good shows and The Wedge was OK but then Denise Donlon took over and turned it into a high rotation bore. Besides you can't watch MM while driving.


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lagatta
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posted 23 January 2005 10:48 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm listening to one of the few cool programmes on commercial radio, the worldbeat show on www.themix.com (Daniel Feist). At the same time there is a programme with Chantal Jolis on Espace Musique - this one is more danceable and I need to dance!

Wow!!!

Adam, we should go to PM about Québec. I don't want to diss you - but the vast majority of people in workers' and popular movements here see Québec as a nation, whether or not they are interested in political independence.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread at all, but what you said does bother me. I don't feel you have a sense of contemporary Québec history.
Guess that is normal, a continent away.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 24 January 2005 01:18 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lagatta, you can pm if you like. I just don't understand what I've said that you disagree with.

The seperatists have said many times "we would have won were it not for the ethnic vote" or "old stock Quebecers are in favor of seperation"

I believe some of the far out seperatists said that only people who have lived in Quebec for a long time, or whose family goes back a long time should be allowed to vote in seperatist referendums.

Of course we also have the example of the extremist seperatists saying "don't forget, Mr. Chretiens first name is John". Or, "Trudeau's first name is Peter"

So, when you said that you were uncomfortable with some of the attitudes of the Quebec nationalists, and equated it to what I was arguing, I naturally assumed these extremists were the people you were referring to.

And again, I fail to see any connection between my argument that the CBC should promote music created by ANY Canadian citizen and the arguments of the extremists seperatists that some Quebecers (re: 'old stock' Francophones) should have more rights than other Quebecers when it comes to deciding the future of Quebec.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 24 January 2005 01:31 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ron, yes, you're right we don't disagree all that much. And, you are also correct that there is the odd genre show on commercial stations.

CFMI in Vancouver plays Steve Van Zandt's (former Bruce Springsteen band member) folk/blues music program, and a local suburban Seatle radio station plays Dan Akroyd's blues program. However, both of these shows are American based and do not promote Canadian talent, and I believe they are on at the same time.

And, as I said above, it's possible that if there were no CBC playing classical, there would be commerical stations that would, at least for a few hours a week, although maybe not in the format you'd like (they'd probably break up the pieces into 5-10 minute segments) CBC obviously crowds out all the competitors.

For those who are interested, the liberal radio network in the U.S, Air America has a show hosted by Steve Earle that plays a fairly eclectic array of music. But, again, it is on the AM dial and most of Air America stations are second tier stations with pretty small signals.

Ron, you should check out a listing of radio stations. http://newslink.org/rclradi.html

This is a full list of radio stations that play classical/jazz music in the U.S. I believe that site also has a Canadian listing.

Like in Canada, classical music in the U.S is largely played by the 'public' broadcaster. But, I can hardly complain about the states like I am with the CBC, because the 'public' broadcaster is actually largely private; it PBS radio, which is largely financed through private donations, so they have a right to play whatever they like.

Like I said above, this is mainly just a pet peeve of mine that dates back to the debate I participated in in high school. I actually listen to very little music on the radio. I mainly listen to the Art Bell show. It's the principle of the thing for me. As I said above, the government has an opportunity to promote a much wider array of Canadian talent than they do with the CBC, and it annoys me.

If I were interested in starting a petition that had a self interest to me, it would be to get more science programs on the radio, like BBC 4.


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 January 2005 12:05 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So sayeth Adam T:

quote:
I actually listen to very little music on the radio. I mainly listen to the Art Bell show.

This thread now makes sense.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 25 January 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This thread now makes sense.

Meanign what? People who like music only want to hear classical?


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Adam T
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posted 25 January 2005 12:38 AM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Classical music is played on the CBC weekdays (excluding the news) from

6:00-12:00 AM Prime time AM radio
3:00-6:00 PM Prime time PM radio
6:30-10:00 PM

and, although they claim to play various styles from 12:00 PM to 3:00 PM, every time I tune in, it's always classical.

Leaving that out, at a minimum, classical music gets 12 1/2 hours every weekday up to 15 1/2 hours. All other forms of niche music gets a guaranteed 6 hours from 10:00PM to 4 AM, or in other words, when most people are asleep or going to sleep.

I fail to see how anybody can claim this is a fair distribution of CBC time.

So, anybody with me, how do you suggest we get a petition going?

[ 25 January 2005: Message edited by: Adam T ]


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 January 2005 02:05 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where do they sign?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 26 January 2005 12:08 AM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
I fail to see how anybody can claim this is a fair distribution of CBC time.

On the other hand, given that classical music is almost never heard on any other broadcast radio station in Canada, it may be a fair distribution of air time generally.

Or to put it another way, "fair distribution of CBC time" might suggest at least one program offering "top hits" style pop/rock music; but why would we want to use tax dollars to compete with commercial stations on their own turf?

quote:
So, anybody with me, how do you suggest we get a petition going?

You might have more luck if you just cut out the middle man and asked anyone who feels as you do submit their comments to the CBC directly.

From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bobolink
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posted 26 January 2005 12:51 AM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Find out about CFMX here: http://www.cfmx.com/
I listen to it from the Cobourg transmitter. Sometimes, I can get the signal from WXXI in Rochester which is a non-commercial classical station. Here in Stirling, CBC One is available from FM transmitters in Peterborough and Kingston. CBC Two is available on FM from Peterborough. There is a CBC One AM transmitter in Bancroft but it is low power. As you can see from the CBC frequency listings, Radio One is now mostly an FM service (but in mono) accross Canada. http://www.cbc.ca/frequency/

From: Stirling, ON | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 26 January 2005 03:18 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
It seems to me that CBC operates two national services in English, CBC One and CBC Two. In many geographic areas, CBC Two is the only alternative to commercial pop music on the dial. I think CBC Two is fulfilling its mandate. If you want to listen to a more general non-commercial music scene, there is always CBC One and, in the big cities, the university radio stations which have very eclectic programming.

Yes that's the case. CBC Radio One used to be known in many parts of the country as "CBC AM" because it was on the AM band in most major Canadian cities. However a number of years ago they switched this service to the FM band in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and some other centres and "re-branded" it "CBC Radio One".

To make up for the lost coverage, the CBC had to add a whole bunch of extra FM transmitters in southern Ontario.

CBC Radio Two used to be called "CBC Stereo" and has always been an FM band service. CBC Radio Two is not available in many parts of the country.

On the French-language side there are also two services, one being "La Premiere Chaine"...basically a mirror image of CBC Radio One and "La Chaine Culturelle"...the music service.

La Chaine Culturelle has only been available outside of Quebec in recent years. I will agree that there's more "non-classical" music played.

The only English-language "commercial" classical music station in Canada that I'm aware of is CFMX in Toronto (96.3, 103.9 out of Cobourg east of Toronto)...so outside of Toronto, the only place to get your "classical fix" is via the CBC...if you have service. Although I would agree that perhaps it would be good to have a bit more non-classical music on CBC-2.

quote:
DNTO should also be moved onto the FM band. Nobody I know likes listening to music on the AM dial. Having DNTO on AM is an insult to non classical music lovers and fits into my argument that the CBC is staffed by classical music elitists who think their music is "SERIOUS" and is better than everything else.

Yeah we have gotten a little "spoiled" over the years with CD quality audio CBC-1 is still on the AM band in most of western Canada and parts of Atlantic Canada...also in Windsor, Ontario.

Technically speaking, calling it the "AM" band is a bit of a misnomer. The more correct technical term used outside Canada and the U.S. is "medium wave". That's because there are other radio bands that use "amplitude modulation" to generate an audio signal. In Europe they have a longwave band which uses "amplitude modulation" and internationally, the shortwave radio bands use "AM".

The one technical characteristic of "medium wave" that makes it appealing is that signals can travel much farther distances, especially at night when signals skip off the ionosphere. I understand the CBC-1 transmitter in Watrous, Saskatchewan blankets not only western Canada but a good chunk of the U.S. midwest at night.

The trade-off as you say is in audio quality and in interference either from thunderstorms or from various human sources such as electric powerlines.
You also need a big chunk of real estate for the transmitting antenna system.

One of the problems that CBC-1 had in Toronto is that their old AM transmitting antenna wasn't in a great location and they used an omni-directional antenna. Omni-directional meaning the signal went out at equal strengths in all directions.

So the signal into downtown Toronto wasn't great and, if you were listening in a car and happened to be behind a TTC streetcar you'd get this nasty whining noise...because the signal just wasn't strong enough to overcome the streetcar noise.

A couple of the other Toronto AM stations actually have their transmitting antennas in Grimsby, just east of Hamilton right on the lakeshore and point their signal at Toronto using a directional antenna system.

There are some new technologies in the works though that "might" improve things for AM.

One technology that was tried in the 1980's was "AM stereo". It flopped because there were three different AM stereo systems. The U.S. drives the market worldwide and rather than adopting a standard, the Reagan era FCC in "deregulation" mode decided to "let the market decide". No decisions ever got made and so nothing ever happened.

There are some tests going on in the U.S. with a system called "IBOC", only nobody has IBOC receivers on the market and all it seems to do from what I've heard is generate hissing noises on the analogue radios that everyone uses.

A bit more promising is a system called "DRM" (Digital Radio Mondiale) and I understand that the CBC is part of the consortium.

In the U.S. there are a couple of "pay" satellite radio services..."Sirrius" and "XM". I understand that they're hooking up with Canadian partners to try to bring the service here. These services have been available in the U.S. for a number of years but only recently have started to take off.

Analogue radio may eventually die, but I think that its going to take a very long time...much longer than analog TV. Analog radio is just so cheap at the consumer level. Anybody can afford a $10 clock radio.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ron Webb
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posted 26 January 2005 08:16 PM      Profile for Ron Webb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bobolink:
Find out about CFMX here: http://www.cfmx.com/
Yup, Google "cfmx" and there it is, right at the top of the list! I dunno what the heck I was doing wrong two days ago! Anyway, thanks for the gentle slap upside my head, Boblink!

From: Winnipeg | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged

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