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» babble   » right brain babble   » culture   » Anyone see Ashlee Simpson on SNL last night?

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Author Topic: Anyone see Ashlee Simpson on SNL last night?
Primate1
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posted 24 October 2004 03:37 PM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Milli Vanilli-ed!!

(Video is encoded in Divx 5.1.1, so yu'll need that to see it.)


From: Newfoundland | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 24 October 2004 03:44 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Milli Vanilli weren't merely lip-synching. Many singer do that. They were lip-synching to someone else's singing.
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steffie
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posted 24 October 2004 03:49 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I gather there occurred some sort of glitch in the recording that I missed when I happened to flip past and stop at her performance last night. Did it happen at the beginning? Because I watched it from mid way thru to the end and thought it looked genuine.
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Primate1
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posted 24 October 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by steffie:
I gather there occurred some sort of glitch in the recording that I missed when I happened to flip past and stop at her performance last night. Did it happen at the beginning? Because I watched it from mid way thru to the end and thought it looked genuine.

It was her second performance of the night.


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Primate1
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posted 24 October 2004 04:21 PM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
Milli Vanilli weren't merely lip-synching. Many singer do that. They were lip-synching to someone else's singing.

That is true. But how do we know it isn't someone else's voice? Normally I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, but fuck that, I'm in the mood to be a jerkoff about it right now.


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DrConway
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posted 24 October 2004 04:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw it, and within a few seconds into it, I said "this is too painful to watch". I really felt sorry for the girl, who is pretty well guaranteed to have no singing career after this.

This also exposes her as quite a hypocrite, since she said:

quote:
From Lucky Magazine interview:
LM: What are your takes on lip-synching?
AS: I'm totally against it and offended by it. I'm going out to let my real talent show, not to just stand there and dance around. Personally, I'd never lip-synch. It's just not me.

It's from here, so you'll have to dig a little to see if the original interview can be substantiated.

[ 24 October 2004: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
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posted 24 October 2004 04:57 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
it's like watching micheal shumacher's car race straight towards the wall
or watching John Turner keep repeating "I-I-I had no choice"
you know your about to see a spectacular crash.
as soon as I heard the voice-over start, I watched, and knew I was seeing something.

I think she's a one-hit wonder. her singing life is over

poor girl, probably spent the night bawling


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kingblake
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posted 24 October 2004 05:03 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't get it. I downloaded the clip and its just the final credits. I thought i was gonna get to watch the disaster!
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 24 October 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good. Sadly there's an infinite number of replacements.
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Hailey
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posted 24 October 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Hailey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't watch the video because I don't have the right thingies on my computer but I just detest Ashlee Simpson. Her sister has the true talent.
From: candyland | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 24 October 2004 11:22 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
http://www.canoe.ca/JamMusic/oct24_simpson-ap.html
quote:
NEW YORK (AP) -- Singer Ashlee Simpson's "extra help" may have been exposed when a Saturday Night Live audience heard her voice -- singing the wrong song -- while she held a microphone at her waist.

Her record company blamed a computer glitch and she blamed her band for Sunday morning's incident, which cut off her planned performance of the song Autobiography on the network comedy show.


Always a good idea to have inconsistent explanations.


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kingblake
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posted 24 October 2004 11:24 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I finally got the downloaded clip to work, and its totally brutal! I almost felt sorry for her. The worst is how she kinda pauses and looks confused, and then continues jumping up and down (or 'dancing') and then stop embarrased, then starts up again... Just terribly awkward. And the band went on...
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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posted 25 October 2004 12:10 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is obviously being discussed all over the internet, in degrees of glee ranging from "mild" to "ghoulish".

The thing I don't understand is I see so many people saying "I almost feel sorry for her..."

Like, she's a little girl. She got badly humiliated in front of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

Go ahead, take the plunge and feel a full on twinge of empathy. You ever had a bad night at work?


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 25 October 2004 03:43 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a better link to the video.

I think that blaming the band for "playing the wrong song" was pretty lame when it was readily apparent that they weren't really playing either (check out the bemused expressions on their faces). Someone just played the wrong pre-recorded song.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 25 October 2004 03:47 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
Her sister has the true talent.

True talent does not come in the form of pre-packaged cookie-cutter performers, whether they are lip-synching or not (it's amazing how little I care whether they are or not, given how completely inconsequential their "work" is).

And, Jesse, I've had bad days at work, but I actually do work.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 25 October 2004 04:38 AM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hailey:
I can't watch the video because I don't have the right thingies on my computer but I just detest Ashlee Simpson. Her sister has the true talent.

Is her sister Jessica Simpson or mini-Britney, as I call her? You forgot the smiley.


From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 25 October 2004 07:11 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And, Jesse, I've had bad days at work, but I actually do work.

On national TV? At age, what, 18? Didn't think so.

Hey, dislike cookie-cutter pop, but some kid is getting pilloried for doing what pretty much every other band out there does. Oh, *sorry*, she at some unspecified time in the past made a comment to a magazine reporter that seems to suggest that she did something she said she wouldn't. I suppose you've never contradicted yourself, changed your mind, or said something you later regretted?

Let's try to have a little perspective here before joining the global pile-on?


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Michelle
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posted 25 October 2004 08:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse Dignity:
Go ahead, take the plunge and feel a full on twinge of empathy. You ever had a bad night at work?

I feel this way too. I'm not even going to watch the video - I have no desire to get the embarassment cringes for her. It probably wasn't even her choice whether or not to lip-sync her song on there. As Jesse says, she's very young and is probably told what to do when it comes to performance by her handlers.

Furthermore, just because it's not the style of music some people like, it doesn't mean that it doesn't take talent to perform it, or that it's an invalid form of musical expression.

[ 25 October 2004: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 25 October 2004 08:18 AM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Like the article said:

quote:
But it sounded suspiciously like a guide vocal that's a common -- although almost always unspoken -- concert aid. Either the singer "lip synchs" by mouthing words to a backing tape or has a live microphone and sings along to the tape, making the voice sound more powerful than it is.

Such vocal tricks have been used before on the show, making Saturday Night Live not entirely live, said a show insider who spoke on condition of anonymity.



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Briguy
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posted 25 October 2004 08:45 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I feel this way too. I'm not even going to watch the video - I have no desire to get the embarassment cringes for her. It probably wasn't even her choice whether or not to lip-sync her song on there. As Jesse says, she's very young and is probably told what to do when it comes to performance by her handlers.


Maybe she'll learn from this and either (a) find a new career or (b) refuse to lip sync for 'live' performances in the future. Hey, maybe this incident will be the one that causes her to develop an edge and actually write (for herself) something interesting in the future. I'm not going to hold my breath on any of those possibilities, but people have been known to learn from their mistakes. Dubya excluded, of course.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 25 October 2004 10:29 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People are not entitled to careers in music purely because they have famous siblings. Like most other jobs, a career in music takes hard work and dedication. Incidents like this are an insult to genuinely talented musicians who don't get the breaks because all the industry attention is focused on product like Ashlee Simpson that can be successfully marketed to fifteen-year old girls for eighteen months.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 25 October 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
You know if the FCC wants to fine NBC over this "malfunction" I really don't mind.
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kingblake
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posted 25 October 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski: check out the bemused expressions on their faces)
That's my favorite part of the video. The bass player looks like he can barely contain himself, and when he and the guitarist make eye contact, he almost crack! The guitar plyer meanwhile just plays it cool, though a little smirk does shine through. Though i do think they were playing.

Also, i assume the "guide vocal" refers to the vocals on parts of the chorus. It sounds like certain harmonies are pre-recorded. Yes, but the intro to the song, the fuckup, clearly wasn't a guide vocal, because it sounded like a verse, or a main part of the song, not just a little harmony.


From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 25 October 2004 03:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, *sorry*, she at some unspecified time in the past made a comment to a magazine reporter that seems to suggest that she did something she said she wouldn't. I suppose you've never contradicted yourself, changed your mind, or said something you later regretted?

Sure. And like everyone else who has, I take my lumps. In Simpson's case though, do you think millions of dollars might wipe away a few tears?

She didn't just "change her mind". She lied.

ed'd to add: just now got the vid to play. What the hell was that little "hopping up and down" schtick?? Seriously. She should have ripped up a picture of the Pope or something. Anything!

[ 25 October 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 25 October 2004 03:22 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, her wierd jig just made it all the more awkward, especially considering she was obviously not into it. She'd start hopping, look around stupidly, stop, then start again!
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Melsky
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posted 25 October 2004 04:42 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's hilarious and I don't feel a bit sorry for her. I'm sure she will go on to a lucrative careen in infomercials or something like that.

If I'm going to feel sorry for anyone in music, it's for people with actual musical talent who are working day jobs to survive. Not for someone with handlers who tell them to do something and end up blaming the band when technical problems reveal their hypocrisy and lack of talent. If she can't sing live, there's a lot of people who can.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 25 October 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If she can't sing live, there's a lot of people who can.

Spot on.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 25 October 2004 08:11 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every Sunday night I go to a bistro where there is a live musical show.

All of the musicians are competent, some of them even great.

None of them use anything like guide-vocals, lip-synching, pro-tools, or any of the other hyphenated aids to the musically challenged.

This show is free of charge, and most of the musicans are not paid for their performance.

The industry is killing music, and this travesty by Simpson is just another example.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
f1 dad
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posted 25 October 2004 09:34 PM      Profile for f1 dad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The industry is killing music, and this travesty by Simpson is just another example.

Music that is considered as a commodity being sold by an "industry" was never alive to begin with.

Real music, such as that you describe in the cafe, is thriving and can't be killed by anybody or anything.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pebbles
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posted 25 October 2004 09:52 PM      Profile for pebbles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was all because of the acid reflux, apparently.
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DrConway
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posted 25 October 2004 10:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:
I think it's hilarious and I don't feel a bit sorry for her.

Hey, buddy, let's see how you feel when you get up on nationwide television and you fuck up so bad people will remember you for years to come and you'll be embarassed so badly not just that once, but again and again and again and... ad nauseam as people bring it up and bring it up and bring it up.

Then tell me you don't feel sorry for the girl after putting yourself in her shoes.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 25 October 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm with Magoo on this one. She lied. She was caught. So she'll only take home a million or two instead of tens or more for singing pop songs.

I bet Sarah McLaughlin never lip syncs.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 25 October 2004 10:56 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw it. Crummy that she blamed her band.

I bet Jesse Dignity never lipsynchs


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 25 October 2004 11:05 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Hey, buddy, let's see how you feel when you get up on nationwide television and you fuck up so bad people will remember you for years to come and you'll be embarassed so badly not just that once, but again and again and again and... ad nauseam as people bring it up and bring it up and bring it up.

Then tell me you don't feel sorry for the girl after putting yourself in her shoes.



I'd be happy with the money she's made. That would override any embarassment rather quickly.

Of course, the worst vocal fuck up was Simon Le Bon at Live Aid. Anyone else recall?


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 25 October 2004 11:06 PM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wish this would happen to more of these fake musicians.
From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
koan brothers
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posted 25 October 2004 11:13 PM      Profile for koan brothers     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
people will remember you for years to come

I'm thinking closer to 15 minutes.


From: desolation row | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 25 October 2004 11:14 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by koan brothers:
I'm thinking closer to 15 minutes.

I wouldn't be surprised if people keep referring to it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 25 October 2004 11:15 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hearby promise to lip sync all of my performances if I ever become a famous pop star. Trust me, it's a promise babblers would prefer me to keep.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 26 October 2004 12:08 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Lord Byron:
Of course, the worst vocal fuck up was Simon Le Bon at Live Aid. Anyone else recall?

Sure do. It was July the 13th, 1985

quote:
July 13th 1985 was the day we watched Live Aid
The Global Jukebox came alive
We fed the world that day
We fed the world that day

It was a day for a party we made a lot of food and we ate it sure as hell
Vegetarian salads, they had no meat, there was leftovers as well
Everybody laughed when I said
Thinking of the people either dying or dead
Let's pick up the leftovers, send them to the starving children in Ethiopia
My mother used to say that

Sure I was pleased to give money, cause it was not a political cause
I just remember the smiling faces, the music and the applause
I spent 30 quid on coke
I smoked a little too much dope
I was wiped out from 5 til 7, I missed Spandau Ballet and U2

July 13th 1985 was the day we watched Live Aid
The Global Jukebox came alive
We fed the world that day
We fed the world that day

The music was fucking brilliant and that Madonna she sure can move
By the time Paul McCartney's microphone had failed yeah, we are all well into the Live Aid groove
Paul McCartney, he sang...
Which must have been a bit of an irony
Cos if you 'Let it Be' nothing will ever improve
But it was one of the first times I ever heard one of the real Beatles sing a real Beatles' song live on television, I really wished Julian Lennon had turned up instead of his recently dead father, I was really moved

July 13th 1985 was the day we watched Live Aid
The Global Jukebox came alive
We fed the world that day
We fed the world that day

Well the powerful voice of pop music, solve the problems, feed the world
So what if there weren't any blacks involved there was Everything but the Girl
Bob Geldof has no ego that man should get the Nobel Prize
By the time he sang the solo on Feed the World
I thought he should be canonized

I felt guilty about the starving but I felt good to be alive
And I must admit I shed a tear or two in the very moving video for that great Cars song Drive
Saint Bob made me feel like shit
So I got out an envelope, opened it
Put in a very crisp ten pound note
It was the same one I used earlier to snort my coke
And that made me feel good inside
Sending the money, not snorting the coke

July 13th 1985 was the day we watched Live Aid
The Global Jukebox came alive
We fed the world that day
We fed the world that day


[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 26 October 2004 12:25 AM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Besides fuelling a hellova song by Bob Dylan and Joan Baez' bastard son... Who IS Simon Le Bon?
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 26 October 2004 12:29 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lead "singer" in Duran Duran. Apparently, he's hungry like the wolf.
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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posted 26 October 2004 12:34 AM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

Hey, buddy, let's see how you feel when you get up on nationwide television and you fuck up so bad people will remember you for years to come and you'll be embarassed so badly not just that once, but again and again and again and... ad nauseam as people bring it up and bring it up and bring it up.

Then tell me you don't feel sorry for the girl after putting yourself in her shoes.


Hmm, let me imagine myself in her situation. I get a career as a recording artist mainly due to my sister's fame. Then I lie about my position on lip synching, and look like an idiot on national tv.


Nope, still don't feel sorry. If anything, I now think it's more funny that people are being all self righteous about it. I have a lot of empathy, for people who actually deserve it. Talentless hacks deserve to be exposed for what they are.

Like another poster said before, I wish this would happen to more of these people.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Primate1
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posted 26 October 2004 12:55 AM      Profile for Primate1   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:
At age, what, 18?

For the sake of accuracy, she is 20.


From: Newfoundland | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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posted 26 October 2004 12:59 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted by Scott Piatkowski
True talent does not come in the form of pre-packaged cookie-cutter performers, whether they are lip-synching or not

One of the things that I've learned since growing out of my Indier-Than-Thou teenage years is that it does indeed take talent, as well as hard work, to be a popular entertainer. Whether the talent is "true" or not, well, I admit to caring a lot less about that than I used to. I can't really summon moral disdain anymore for a singer whose job is just to sing. Some people just wash dishes for a living. They do about the same amount of harm to the music I enjoy as someone who sings songs I don't appreciate.

(note: the above level-headedness does not apply to wack MCs, whom I destroy at all times with my mighty powers)

quote:
originally posted by Michelle
It probably wasn't even her choice whether or not to lip-sync her song on there. As Jesse says, she's very young and is probably told what to do when it comes to performance by her handlers.

Furthermore, just because it's not the style of music some people like, it doesn't mean that it doesn't take talent to perform it, or that it's an invalid form of musical expression.


word on both counts, Michelle.

quote:
originally posted by Briguy
Hey, maybe this incident will be the one that causes her to develop an edge and actually write (for herself) something interesting in the future.

It feels weird to type this, since I used to always argue the side you're advancing right now, but really... why should a singer have to be a writer as well? We don't criticize actors for not writing their own scripts. Writing and performing are two very distinct tasks. They can be very complementary, but I don't see why they should be inseparable.

quote:
People are not entitled to careers in music purely because they have famous siblings.

Er as it happens, people are pretty much entitled to any career they get, by the sheer virtue of having got them. No-one is entitled to a career in music. That ain't food and shelter. Music is a service rendered - and if people want you to render it unto them, then they hire you to do so. If they don't, then tough.

This is something I've had to come to terms with from the bottom end. ^_^

quote:
Like most other jobs, a career in music takes hard work and dedication. Incidents like this are an insult to genuinely talented musicians who don't get the breaks because all the industry attention is focused on product like Ashlee Simpson that can be successfully marketed to fifteen-year old girls for eighteen months.

Dude, the "genuinely talented" musicians of which you speak are by no means in competition with Ashlee Simpson. It's not as though if it wasn't for her, the fifteen-year-old girls would all be listening to Sigur Ros and Broken Social Scene. There are many forms that music takes, and many roles that music fills. And the reason manufactured pop is so wildly popular is that people want it. Kids want it. They enjoy it. It distracts them. It fills a purpose.

Demand for a thing entitles anyone who can supply it to a career in doing so.

quote:
originally posted by kingblake
Also, i assume the "guide vocal" refers to the vocals on parts of the chorus. It sounds like certain harmonies are pre-recorded. Yes, but the intro to the song, the fuckup, clearly wasn't a guide vocal, because it sounded like a verse, or a main part of the song, not just a little harmony.

That's a good inference because harmonies frequently are layered in, but the term "guide vocal" wouldn't refer to them because the singer doesn't sing those parts. A guide vocal would be a version of the main vocal intended to keep the singer in tune and the band together. I wouldn't expect it to be intended for play out loud - rather, in a headset.

That a guide vocal might have been played out loud by mistake is actually a reasonably plausible explanation, but it seems according to the most recent updates that she has admitted that she was indeed lip syncing, due to stress on her voice from touring, and that she regrets it (and furthermore regrets blaming the band).

quote:
originally posted by fuslim
None of them use anything like guide-vocals, lip-synching, pro-tools, or any of the other hyphenated aids to the musically challenged.

Uh... ProTools is not an aid to the musically challenged. It is an audio recording suite. You don't know what you're talking about.

quote:
This show is free of charge, and most of the musicans are not paid for their performance.

The industry is killing music, and this travesty by Simpson is just another example.


Travesty!? TRAVESTY!? Are you insane? She didn't KILL anyone and it's not as though either her shitty song or the shitty show it appeared on MATTER whatsoever. I'm overreacting, I think, because I am genuinely in awe that you would refer to one of the least consequential events in contemporary music, let alone modern history, as a travesty.

Furthermore, the industry is most certainly not killing music. The industry is killing only itself. The industry hasn't laid a finger on your sunday evening jam sessions, for example. If you really think that art isn't worth subsidizing, there will always be people ready to give it away for free.

Not that it'll be very good. Working a full time job doesn't exactly help a guy keep his chops in shape, or give him much time to write or arrange a new song.

But if that's how you like it, "the industry" certainly won't prevent you from enjoying that.

quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:
If I'm going to feel sorry for anyone in music, it's for people with actual musical talent who are working day jobs to survive.

Well thanks - that's me you're feeling sorry for... and I feel sorry for her.

quote:
originally posted by audra
I bet Jesse Dignity never lipsynchs

You win that bet! You can tell because I fuck up a lot. ^_^

[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: Jesse Dignity ]


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 26 October 2004 01:00 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This from IMDB :

quote:
Ashlee Simpson has owned up to lip-syncing, following an embarrassing Saturday night slip-up on live TV. The brunette singer, younger sister of Jessica Simpson, made an appearance on long-running comedy show Saturday Night Live, where she performed her hit single "Pieces Of Me." But when she was due to sing "Autobiography" track later on in the show, a pre-recorded track of her voice singing Pieces of Me began playing while Simpson was holding her microphone to the side and had her mouth closed - forcing her to exit the stage. And while she initially blamed her band for the incident, she now writes on her website that her voice was overworked. She says, "I'll hold my head high and say I think it was silly of me to do it, silly of me to blame the band, I was just so f**king embarrassed. But I don't think it did me much harm, and people will see that soon." A Saturday Night Live spokesperson says Simpson had planned to use a backing track, a common concert aid which allows singers to either mime or sing along with a guide-vocal track, to augment her voice. A statement from Simpson's record label blamed a "computer glitch" which triggered "a cut from her album" to play instead of a drum cue. The blunder has been all the more embarrassing for Simpson, because she recently expressed her disapproval of lip-syncing in an interview with Lucky magazine, explaining, "I'm totally against it and offended by it. I'm going to let my real talent show, not just stand there and dance around. Personally, I'd never lip- sync. It's just not me."

From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 04:06 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by fuslim
None of them use anything like guide-vocals, lip-synching, pro-tools, or any of the other hyphenated aids to the musically challenged.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Uh... ProTools is not an aid to the musically challenged. It is an audio recording suite. You don't know what you're talking about.

This may be a bit tough to explain to the wet behind the ears crowd, but in the old days, musicians had to be able to play their instruments and sing on key. There wasn't unlimited editing and reproduction available.

In addition, studio time was expensive and musicians were required to get it right the first time.

Pro Tools is advertised as software that makes that unnecessary.

"...First time users will be able to step into the non-linear, instant access recording, editing and mixing characteristic of Digidesign's
Pro Tools.

Like professionals, newcomers to Pro Tools will be able to record and edit without erasing or changing original audio, edit during playback, create crossfades and mix..."

Notice the emphasis on 'first time users' and 'newcomers'.

By the way, I've been sequencing for several years using a variety of hardware and software.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This show is free of charge, and most of the musicians are not paid for their performance.
The industry is killing music, and this travesty by Simpson is just another example.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Travesty!? TRAVESTY!? Are you insane? She didn't KILL anyone and it's not as though either her shitty song or the shitty show it appeared on MATTER whatsoever. I'm overreacting, I think, because I am genuinely in awe that you would refer to one of the least consequential events in contemporary music, let alone modern history, as a travesty.

Well I guess you had better get your dictionary out and read it.

According to mine the word travesty means:

"A grotesque imitation; burlesque. Synonymous with 'caricature'. From the Middle French travestir, to disguise oneself.

Now I don't know what your dictionary says, but I think travesty sums it up rather well, especially the part about 'disguising oneself'.

That is precisely what a singer who uses a pre-recorded vocal without telling anyone is doing.

Burlesque is even closer,

"Any ludicrous imitation or caricature; travesty.
Marked by ridiculous incongruity or broad caricature."

You should maybe learn to read.

Furthermore, the industry is most certainly not killing music. The industry is killing only itself. The industry hasn't laid a finger on your sunday evening jam sessions, for example. If you really think that art isn't worth subsidizing, there will always be people ready to give it away for free.

Not that it'll be very good. Working a full time job doesn't exactly help a guy keep his chops in shape, or give him much time to write or arrange a new song.

But if that's how you like it, "the industry" certainly won't prevent you from enjoying...

But of course what the industry does affects the Sunday evening jam.

When the industry promotes travesties such as Ashlee Simpson, they are literally taking money away from real musicians.

I read an interview with an industry rep a while back, and that person was complaining that the industry was spending too much on A&R.

Well, well, well. They cut their stables down to a small handful of artists (I use the term loosely), then spend millions promoting them.

When Britney Spears hired Christine Aguilera's promotion agency it made the business pages. This was a firm with something like 400 employees, all working to build the Spears image.

They handle the songs, the hair, the clothes, the magazine articles, the makeup, in fact, every aspect of Britney Spears Inc.

This cost the recording companies millions, and when their product falls flat in the marketplace they complain that they're spending too much on A&R!

At the same time, they try their best to stifle creativity, 'cause it's the one thing they can't buy.

Meanwhile, real musicians are working away in the trenches, further marginalized by an industry that would rather spend a billion dollars on Ashlee Simpson, than spend ten cents on a musician that has spent a lifetime learning the craft.

Music will go on, of course because it is a permanent part of the human soul.

Personally, I hope the industry dies choking on it's own vomit. And that's pretty much what this Ashlee Simpson episode is.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 04:18 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just logged onto the Pro Tools website and found this:

"...Trim waveforms, reprocess regions of audio, pitch-correct a compromised performance, replace drum sounds, and rearrange song sections on a whim;..."

So I will expect an apology from the nitwit who said I didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned Pro-Tools as a device for the musically challanged.

Obviously the company themselves think their product will be used to "pitch correct a compromised performance".

[ 26 October 2004: Message edited by: fuslim ]


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 26 October 2004 07:06 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what exactly is your complaint, fuslim? Many of the musicians that I know recording out of their living rooms use software like Pro Tools to record and edit their music so they don't have to pay a professional studio big bucks to do it for them, plus they've got greater control over the final product.

But you want Pro Tools to just be for the 'musically challenged' to fix their blunders.

Thank you for labeling the independent music scene 'musically challenged' by crapping all over the software they use and the measures they frequently have to take to get their music out there without industry support.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 26 October 2004 09:00 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It feels weird to type this, since I used to always argue the side you're advancing right now, but really... why should a singer have to be a writer as well? We don't criticize actors for not writing their own scripts. Writing and performing are two very distinct tasks.

Well, this is a valid opinion. Unfortunately, young Ashlee doesn't do either (sing or write).


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 26 October 2004 10:08 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, for the money she gets for an appearance, I would gladly go on SNL and embarrass the hell out of myself. I can't sing too.

Okay, maybe she can sing. I am an authentic bad singer.

And I don't know what some of the anger is about. Artists(?) like Ashely Simpson do absolutley nothing for independent artists and are constructs of the recording industry, which as we know, provides little support for independent artists.

They hype Simpson becuase she is cute and cuddly and the sister of the already over-hyped Jessica and meanwhile real artists with real talents are starving.

I simply can't feel bad that a young, rich, kid with everything going for her and with a music career handed to her might have blown it due to a programming or other error on national television.

And what did she blow really? She will still be a young, rich, kid who will never worry about pawning her guitar for food.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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Babbler # 4717

posted 26 October 2004 10:19 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One of the most annoying thing about this insult to music is that it is symptomatic of a culture that can never take responsiblity for its mistakes. Simpson blames the band, her father blames some throat problem, the record company uses the old fall back of 'technical difficulties'.
Is it that hard to just say 'sorry, we fucked up'?

From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
koan brothers
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Babbler # 3242

posted 26 October 2004 01:23 PM      Profile for koan brothers     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

I wouldn't be surprised if people keep referring to it.


After thinking about it a little more, I'm going to flip-flop and adopt your attitude of compassion rather than stand on my little snide comment. Thanks for the lesson Doc.


From: desolation row | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 26 October 2004 01:37 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What if we all adopted a "love the syncher, hate the synch" kind of approach?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 26 October 2004 02:04 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Combined, in this case, with a "love the liar, hate the lie" approach.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
gopi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6163

posted 26 October 2004 02:35 PM      Profile for gopi     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
[...] let's see how you feel when you get up on nationwide television and you fuck up so bad people will remember you for years to come [...]

Frankly, I'm more embarassed about the pathetic songs that she sings than any "fuck up" she makes while singing them.


From: transient | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because there was such a high level of misunderstanding in this person’s post, I'll deal with it piece by piece.

1. "So what exactly is your complaint, fuslim? Many of the musicians that I know recording out of their living rooms use software like Pro Tools to record and edit their music so they don't have to pay a professional studio big bucks to do it for them, plus they've got greater control over the final product."

My complaint had nothing to do with musicians not having to pay a studio big bucks. It had to do with 'musicians' using software and other means to fix bad performance.

2. "But you want Pro Tools to just be for the 'musically challenged' to fix their blunders."

Pro Tools advertises itself as a means of fixing a bad performance. Obviously, real musicians can also use Pro Tools. They just don't need the parts of it that are used to adjust 'compromised pitch'.

3. "Thank you for labeling the independent music scene 'musically challenged' by crapping all over the software they use and the measures they frequently have to take to get their music out there without industry support."

Number one, I said absolutely nothing about the independent music scene. I have no argument with the independent music scene. My argument is with those so-called musicians who couldn't string three notes together without screwing up.

I listen to new music several nights a week in live venues. Some of it's good, some of it's not so good. My opinion of those performances means very little, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about real musicians as opposed to wannabe's who need software to fix up their inadequacies as musicians.

This may come as a surprise to you, but Pro Tools is not necessary to 'get their music out there'. They could do what other musicians have done in the past. Go out and play their music live.

Playing live sharpens performance ability like nothing else. It also teaches you stage presence, and all those other qualities that make you stand out as a musician.

That way, when your computer tech screws up, you don't have to dance around the stage like an idiot while he/she tries to figure out what went wrong.

When people choose to use Pro Tools (or any other 'fixer') to paper over their lack of musicianship, then I will 'crap all over them'. They're not musicians, they're just karaoke kings and queens.

They deserve to be humiliated in front of millions.

B. B. King played live 360 nights a year for twenty-five years before he got industry recognition for his great talent. The list of other great musicians who have followed the same path is huge.

Any singer - and any song - that’s worth listening to can perform/be performed a cappella.

My advice to any aspiring singer/songwriter would be to throw Pro-Tools and all it’s clones into the garbage, learn how to sing and play your instrument, and get out there and play your songs live.

If (and when) you have achieved a level of ability, you won’t have to worry about paying the big studio’s money, they’ll be paying you.


If you want


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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Babbler # 44

posted 26 October 2004 05:21 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

So, she cut short her 15 minutes of fame. Ha-ha!
I wonder if she's smarter than her sister.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seeing as how people have taken such a defensive stance vis a vis Pro Tools, I think I better deal with the subject in a little more detail.

To begin with, I have no argument with software use in the recording industry. Software by itself does nothing. However, people use it - and sometimes use it to obviate poor musical performance. Pro Tools is advertised as a product that makes this possible.

My argument is not limited to Pro Tools; it applies to all of the ‘tools’ used to patch up poor performance.

Secondly, I use music software myself. Recently I composed a series of short pieces for a fashion show. The music was to be played as the models walked the catwalk, and I had three days to come up with something. I used a program called Band-In-A-Box which creates background music based on an input chord structure.

The midi files I created were then moved to Cakewalk, where I edited and arranged the compositions. I then took them to a friend’s studio where Pro Tools was used to record and master the final product.

However, note the use of the ‘product’ - that’s what this was. It was created for a specific purpose, and wasn’t intended to deceive anyone. There was no band standing on stage pretending to play, and there was no singer pretending to sing.

It was just amorphous ‘music’ so the models would have a beat to walk by.

So I have no problem with either Pro Tools, or any other software, per se.

Thirdly, I have no problem with the independent music scene. I wouldn’t presume to sit in judgement on any independent artists’ song or songs. Some stuff I like, and other stuff I don’t. My opinion of any piece of music is immaterial.

In my opinion, the only arbiter of musical quality is time. Those compositions that are ‘good’ will still be around in years to come. The rest will fall by the wayside.

However, I do have a problem with musicians who can’t sing or play, and use a variety of devices to patch up their performance.

I’ve listened to hundreds of different musicians and singers. I’ve attended thousands of jam sessions and open mics. I’ve played alongside hundreds of bass players, drummers, singers, horn players, etc., etc., etc., from beginners to accomplished veterans.

I may not be a competent judge of a song’s quality, but I am a competent judge of musical performance.

What I see in the industry today is a concerted (no pun intended) effort to remove talent and playing ability from the musical equation. Thus we have the Ashlee Simpson’s, and a raft of other musical nobodies being paraded before us.

While independents may be using software to ‘take control’ of their music, or to avoid paying big bucks to studios, etc., the industry is using the same devices to foist no-talent wannabe’s on an unsuspecting public.

The real question is why do they do this? Why do they need all the devices to paper over the poor quality of the performers?

In my opinion, it is because talent and creativity come unbidden. You can’t make them happen by throwing money at them, so the industry tries to remove them from the musical equation.

What the industry wants is a product they can fully control. That way they’ll never be at the mercy of the talented or the creative.

I was at a seminar not so long ago where an industry rep and a media technician made a presentation, then took questions. I asked how a composer who had a small handful of songs should go about getting them to someone’s attention.

The media tech took one look at me and responded that if one hadn’t been ‘discovered’ by thirteen years of age, forget it.

Now, I’ll grant you there are definitely child prodigies. Mozart, Van Morrison, and whoever else, were great musicians at a very early age.

At the same time, there are those who didn’t show early promise, but composed great pieces later in life. Age by itself has nothing to do with it.

So why would the industry want only those thirteen-year-old discoveries? I suggest because they like to get the most impressionable and pliable.

And why don’t the discoveries need to actually know anything about music to be a big star? Because the industry has the means to fix any performance, no matter how bad.

A George Gershwin or a Tom Waits, a Billie Holiday or a Glenn Gould, come along maybe once a generation. This does not satisfy the industry’s need for sales.

From their point of view, it’s so much better to use devices to eliminate the need for talent. They want a standard product, and they want to fully control the manufacturing process. They use the devices (such as Pro Tools) to achieve that goal.

So all you budding musicians and composers out there, throw away your Pro Tools, toss your computers, you don’t need them. It’s the industry that needs them.

Find the live venues where you can play your compositions, where you can learn to play along with other musicians, where you can learn how to present yourself to an audience, where you can hone your licks.

You will find this so much more satisfying than trying to become the next ‘idol’.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 08:08 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
This may be a bit tough to explain to the wet behind the ears crowd, but in the old days, musicians had to be able to play their instruments and sing on key. There wasn't unlimited editing and reproduction available.

In addition, studio time was expensive and musicians were required to get it right the first time.


Ah, indeed? Please, tell me more about the history of the recording industry! I'm always delighted to hear the quaint impressions of the laity.

quote:
Pro Tools is advertised as software that makes that unnecessary.

"...First time users will be able to step into the non-linear, instant access recording, editing and mixing characteristic of Digidesign's Pro Tools.

Like professionals, newcomers to Pro Tools will be able to record and edit without erasing or changing original audio, edit during playback, create crossfades and mix..."

Notice the emphasis on 'first time users' and 'newcomers'.


This may be a bit tough to explain to the wet beneath the lips crowd, but Protools is the industry standard software/hardware suite for recording music. As the industry standard in a professional context, it has very little need to advertise itself to "Nth time users" or "oldcomers".

You're just continuing to reveal that you don't know what ProTools is. You may as well be slagging off 4-track tape or razorblades. It is a recording suite. It has a variety of functions that can be employed toward various ends.

quote:
By the way, I've been sequencing for several years using a variety of hardware and software.

BAND IN A BOX. Homeboy, don't kid yourself. You have actually just managed to cheapen the word "sequencing".

quote:
Well I guess you had better get your dictionary out and read it.

You are absolutely right on this one, however. It was incredibly stupid of me to flip out over a word's usage without first checking to make sure my internal definition of it was correct. It was way off, due to a failure to consider its usual context.

Sorry about that. I had kind of this head of steam built up and acted like a dope.

quote:
You should maybe learn to read.

The preceding apology notwithstanding, you should maybe suck my dick.

quote:
But of course what the industry does affects the Sunday evening jam.

When the industry promotes travesties such as Ashlee Simpson, they are literally taking money away from real musicians.


Ah are they indeed literally taking money away from "real" musicians? Look obviously I've used up all my currency for pedantry in this thread, but seriously - come on, dude.

quote:
Well, well, well. They cut their stables down to a small handful of artists (I use the term loosely)

Ah do you indeed, thanks for clarifying...

quote:
At the same time, they try their best to stifle creativity, 'cause it's the one thing they can't buy.

No they don't and no it isn't. The thing is not that they are opposed to creativity - they simply have no need for it. It doesn't matter to them one way or the other whether Babyface (not creative) is producing a record or Timbaland (extremely creative) is - either one is a hitmaker, they will hire either one.

Plenty of creativity squeaks through the mainstream. It just gets overwhelmed by the product that lacks creativity because there's less of it (and also because people are not checking for it, especially not in that context).

quote:
Meanwhile, real musicians are working away in the trenches, further marginalized by an industry that would rather spend a billion dollars on Ashlee Simpson, than spend ten cents on a musician that has spent a lifetime learning the craft.

Right, because Ashlee Simpson WILL MAKE THEM THEIR BILLION DOLLARS BACK. This is not further marginalization, this is precisely the level of marginalization that has always existed for the virtuoso. Obviously the big bucks are invested in the ventures (note: not The Ventures) that have the most likelihood of recouping and turning a profit. That's not what virtuoso performance or groundbreaking composition are FOR. There's a reason it's called "popular music", man. It's because the people, on the whole, don't give a shit about qualifiable GOODness.

Look man, you go ahead and enjoy those sunday jam sessions. I'm sure I would, too. But you can't honestly be making the case that the pop stars of the world are siphoning away money and attention that those performers are entitled to, are you? That's like saying Barry Bonds is stealing food off the plate of the guys I know who play softball on the Halifax Commons every sunday.

They are not in competition.

quote:
Personally, I hope the industry dies choking on it's own vomit. And that's pretty much what this Ashlee Simpson episode is.

Good point, I fully expect to see the industry fold up and disappear within the next couple weeks. Nothing could withstand this kind of debacle.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
So I will expect an apology from the nitwit who said I didn't know what I was talking about when I mentioned Pro-Tools as a device for the musically challanged.

(1) dude, for serious, suck my dick and take a nap.

(2) scanning a product's website for scraps of promotional copy that only almost support your statement at best does not, unfortunately, suggest that you in any way know what you are talking about now, and even if it did it certainly wouldn't mean you knew what you were talking about when I said you didn't know what you were talking about. Which you didn't. And you don't. Smarten up.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 08:23 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
originally posted by WingNut
Artists(?) like Ashely Simpson do absolutley nothing for independent artists and are constructs of the recording industry, which as we know, provides little support for independent artists.

Well I mean, no offense man, but duh.

Dealing with the latter portion first - what should the major label system be doing for independant artists? The key word in this sentence is independant - i.e. outside of the major label system. To say that "the industry" should be supporting indie artists is tantamount to saying that Wal-Mart should be supporting the locally owned corner store. No matter how much one prefers the mom & pop, no matter how much more ethical they are and how their prices are better and everything - all of that makes no difference to the fact that they are an entirely separate entity and thus have incurred no obligation from The Man to support them or facilitate their existance in any way. That's what independance is. If they had support, they wouldn't be independant.

And former portion last - what in the world should Ashlee Simpson be doing for independant artists? She's an employee. Janitors don't hire the other janitors.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 08:43 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
[QBThey're not musicians, they're just karaoke kings and queens.

They deserve to be humiliated in front of millions.


My man, you are a genuine sweetheart.

quote:
B. B. King played live 360 nights a year for twenty-five years before he got industry recognition for his great talent.

B.B. King was enslaved by a music industry that valued its artists even less than the current one does. You're presenting that as a positive model? BB King got fucked, man.

quote:
Any singer - and any song - that’s worth listening to can perform/be performed a cappella.

Would you listen to much of BB King's ouevre, a capella? Don't be ridiculous.

quote:
My advice to any aspiring singer/songwriter would be to throw Pro-Tools and all it’s clones into the garbage, learn how to sing and play your instrument, and get out there and play your songs live.

There's an extent to which that is excellent advice. I must confess that you've yet to convince me of your qualifications vis a vis dispensing it, however.

quote:
If (and when) you have achieved a level of ability, you won’t have to worry about paying the big studio’s money, they’ll be paying you.

Not unless you're an unsung session player, they won't. You have a lot of very naïve, romantic notions of the workings of the music industry. You should probably not espouse any positions based on these notions, because you saw how stupid I looked earlier in this thread when I acted like I knew what the word "travesty" meant.

----

quote:
Seeing as how people have taken such a defensive stance vis a vis Pro Tools, I think I better deal with the subject in a little more detail.

Translation: "I've finally finished reading the website and uh..."

quote:
Secondly, I use music software myself. Recently I composed a series of short pieces for a fashion show. The music was to be played as the models walked the catwalk, and I had three days to come up with something. I used a program called Band-In-A-Box which creates background music based on an input chord structure.

Alternatively: I use music software myself. Recently I enqueued a number of MP3 files using a program called WinAmp which creates background music based on just plain choosing a bunch of songs that I had no hand in composing or performing.

quote:
[qb]In my opinion, the only arbiter of musical quality is time. Those compositions that are ‘good’ will still be around in years to come. The rest will fall by the wayside.

"Good" won't help anything stick around if it doesn't chart in the first place. There's a whole world of amazing music out there that practically no-one ever listened to. Time didn't do much for it.

[quote]What I see in the industry today is a concerted (no pun intended) effort to remove talent and playing ability from the musical equation. Thus we have the Ashlee Simpson’s, and a raft of other musical nobodies being paraded before us.

This is not something new. This is how popular music has ALWAYS worked.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"You should probably not espouse any positions based on these notions, because you saw how stupid I looked earlier in this thread when I acted like I knew what the word "travesty" meant."

Let's see, you're stupid, so I shouldn't espouse any positions, is that right?

I'm sorry, I don't know how your stupidity prevents me from knowing something about the music industry. However, I'm willing to listen.

State your case.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 08:59 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
"You should probably not espouse any positions based on these notions, because you saw how stupid I looked earlier in this thread when I acted like I knew what the word "travesty" meant."

Let's see, you're stupid, so I shouldn't espouse any positions, is that right?

I'm sorry, I don't know how your stupidity prevents me from knowing something about the music industry. However, I'm willing to listen.

State your case.


My point, for those of you without television, is that when one speaks whereof one does not know, one says things which are laughably incorrect.

As an example, I offered my own gaffe in re: the word "travesty".

As a further example, I might offer juuuuust about anything you said about the music industry or the process of recording music at any time in this thread.

Sorry, is that clearer now?


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 26 October 2004 09:04 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
wait wait wait let me take a step back here.

I think this whole thing turned into a fight because of my tone when I had my little hissy fit above about the word "travesty". That probably got some hackles all up. Then seeing all those raised hackles in effect probably made my hackles kinda jealous so they jumped up and got busy too, and I wound up cranking out a furious series of scathing responses that weren't really warranted.

There's no reason for me to actually be angry with fuslim. I didn't like his condescending posts but upon review, I think I asked for them.

So... I'm sorry for the above uh... outburst.

This is not to say I don't still believe myself to be absolutely correct on all counts, I just didn't need to be such a dick about it. ^_^


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4717

posted 26 October 2004 09:11 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The weirdest subjects spark flamewars.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 26 October 2004 11:03 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Apparently, Jesse Dignity is lashing out at me ‘cause I don’t like Pro Tools.

I’ll try to respond - not in kind – but substantively. All Jesse quotes will be bold:

”Ah, indeed? Please, tell me more about the history of the recording industry! I'm always delighted to hear the quaint impressions of the laity.

Back when, tape had two tracks, editing was difficult and overdubbing was impossible. In those days, musicians had to get it right the first time.

Even in latter days, getting it right was considered a good thing. A friend of mine who is a long time producer was asked about the ‘machine that can correct the bad notes of a singer.” He replied that it was easier to hire a new singer.

”This may be a bit tough to explain to the wet beneath the lips crowd, but Protools is the industry standard software/hardware suite for recording music. As the industry standard in a professional context, it has very little need to advertise itself to "Nth time users" or "oldcomers".

You're just continuing to reveal that you don't know what ProTools is. You may as well be slagging off 4-track tape or razorblades. It is a recording suite. It has a variety of functions that can be employed toward various ends.

And one of those ends is fixing ‘compromised pitches’. They advertise it that way, and far be it from me to say they’re lying.


BAND IN A BOX. Homeboy, don't kid yourself. You have actually just managed to cheapen the word "sequencing".

Actually B-In-B has some purpose, and was written by a very good musician (Peter Gannon). It can be used for a variety of things, including teaching.


The thing is not that they are opposed to creativity - they simply have no need for it.

!!!!! You might ask yourself why they ‘have no need for it’.

It doesn't matter to them one way or the other whether Babyface (not creative) is producing a record or Timbaland (extremely creative)…

Are you presuming to judge what is and isn’t creative. Sounds like it.

Right, because Ashlee Simpson WILL MAKE THEM THEIR BILLION DOLLARS BACK.
Given the wonderful publicity she’s been getting lately, they may not get their money back.

In any case, why is the industry whining so much about not making money? Why are they suing kids for downloading music? Apparently, their strategy of pumping (pimping) up no talent lip-synchers is not paying off.

”There's a reason it's called "popular music", man. It's because the people, on the whole, don't give a shit about qualifiable GOODness.”

Maybe that’s my problem, I always had a certain respect for the audience, and their ability to figure out what they liked and why.

Look man, you go ahead and enjoy those sunday jam sessions. I'm sure I would, too. But you can't honestly be making the case that the pop stars of the world are siphoning away money and attention that those performers are entitled to, are you? That's like saying Barry Bonds is stealing food off the plate of the guys I know who play softball on the Halifax Commons every sunday.

Of course, the difference between Barry Bonds and the weekend player is that Barry Bonds plays baseball better than they do, and he had to go through a whole lot of steps to prove it.

If someone invented a bat that allowed anybody to hit homers in the big leagues, would they be allowed to play?

Man, in the big leagues they don’t even allow a little cork in the bat. People want the genuine article, not some trumped up weekender with an exploding bat. The same goes for all major leagues.

All of them have rules disallowing any device that destroys the integrity of the sport. Apparently the recording industry doesn’t. That’s why the pre-recorded, wave-trimmed, pitch corrected, vocals.

”Good point, I fully expect to see the industry fold up and disappear within the next couple weeks. Nothing could withstand this kind of debacle.”

Given the level of whining from the industry about how little money they make, one never knows…


(2) scanning a product's website for scraps of promotional copy that only almost support your statement at best does not, unfortunately, suggest that you in any way know what you are talking about now, and even if it did it certainly wouldn't mean you knew what you were talking about when I said you didn't know what you were talking about. Which you didn't. And you don't. Smarten up.

My contention was that Pro Tools is used as a crutch for the musically challenged. They advertise their product as doing exactly that.

And former portion last - what in the world should Ashlee Simpson be doing for independant artists? She's an employee. Janitors don't hire the other janitors.

Although this comment wasn’t directed at me, I like it so much I thought I’d keep it in. Ashlee Simpson as janitor, although I doubt she could make it as a janitor without a Pro Tools mop.


”B.B. King was enslaved by a music industry that valued its artists even less than the current one does. You're presenting that as a positive model? BB King got fucked, man.”

You know, I read B. B. King’s autobiography and there’s nothing in there about him being enslaved by the music industry. What he did say was that for many years the white audiences thought he was too ‘black’, and the black audiences thought he was too ‘white’.

You should consider reading his book.

My original quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any singer - and any song - that’s worth listening to can perform/be performed a cappella.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you listen to much of BB King's ouevre, a capella? Don't be ridiculous.

The blues started as ‘field hollers’. Sung phrases with no musical accompaniment, in other words, a cappella.

The music that gave birth to rock and roll, jazz, and almost all popular music today, started as a cappella performance. I’ll stand by my original statement.


My original quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My advice to any aspiring singer/songwriter would be to throw Pro-Tools and all it’s clones into the garbage, learn how to sing and play your instrument, and get out there and play your songs live.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There's an extent to which that is excellent advice. I must confess that you've yet to convince me of your qualifications vis a vis dispensing it, however.

Whether you’re convinced or not is immaterial to me, and to the advice.

Alternatively: I use music software myself. Recently I enqueued a number of MP3 files using a program called WinAmp which creates background music based on just plain choosing a bunch of songs that I had no hand in composing or performing.

Difference is I own the copyright. Bear in mind that only the melody and lyric of a song can be copyright. The rest is just rhythm section. (By the way, before you leap on that, I’ll say I have a great deal of respect for the musicians in the rhythm section – at the same time their contribution can’t be copyrighted.)


"Good" won't help anything stick around if it doesn't chart in the first place. There's a whole world of amazing music out there that practically no-one ever listened to. Time didn't do much for it.”

If it doesn’t chart???? Where do you think music comes from? There’s a song that has ‘charted’ a number of times, “Miserlou”. That song was written hundreds of years before there were charts, radios, electricity even.

There’s all sorts of music around today (for instance, the blues which was just mentioned) that was written years before there was a recording industry.

Why is it still around? Because people liked it, and sang or played it over and over again, to themselves and their children.

You seem to think music started sometime when, in the last forty years?

I’ll stick by my contention. Time will preserve the good, and trash the bad.

One last point. You seem to think the industry was ‘always’ this way. But it wasn’t. One of the big changes is the merging of recording companies, to the point where there are what? four international companies left.

The concentration in the industry has put a real damper on diversity and creativity. Instead of searching out new artists, it seems the companies just buy up someone’s old catalogue and re-issue.

In the semi-old days there were recording companies that had respect for the artists. Motown and Ahmet Ertegun is one example, the Chess brothers are another.

Where are the executives today that respect music, much less artists?


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 26 October 2004 11:09 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An unfortunate mishap....

....but she is still by far the hottest pop-star ever


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 26 October 2004 11:30 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In the semi-old days there were recording companies that had respect for the artists. Motown and Ahmet Ertegun is one example, the Chess brothers are another.

Atlantic artists like LaVern Baker and Ruth Brown had to fight the label tooth and nail for years, right up until the 90's, to get the money they were owed. Motown treated its artists like cogs in an assembly line, and long denied its stupendous house band any credit or recognition. The Chess brothers gave a songwriting credit for Chuck Berry's "Maybellene" to disc jockey Alan Freed, who didn't write a note of it, in order to gain airplay.

Not to question their musical instincts, or the scumminess of the current industry, but to paint the indie record companies as saints is a bit of a stretch. They were businessmen like any others.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 27 October 2004 12:15 AM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's try to have a little perspective here before joining the global pile-on?

Perspective? Perspective.

Considering the countless catalogue of human misery suffering torment and trauma that occur at any given moment on this vast glove, why should this inconsequential event elicit an out poring of compassion. IF you really need to make a compassionate connection with human suffering go buy someone homeless a coffee for Christs' sake.

If being humiliated on TV the most traumatic thing that could occur to someone, then I guess the slaughter going on in the Congo must be staged.

Although some have condescendinly refered to Ms.Simpson as a "little girl" she is in fact an adult, a young one, but still an adult. As an adult she is a willling participant in the perpetuation of this tedious corportae travesty I'm not sure why this should be cause for sympathy, I feel more sympathy for the poor children who are force fed this crap.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 27 October 2004 01:10 AM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse Dignity:
wait wait wait let me take a step back here.


I didn't like his condescending posts but upon review, I think I asked for them.

So... I'm sorry for the above uh... outburst.

This is not to say I don't still believe myself to be absolutely correct on all counts, I just didn't need to be such a dick about it. ^_^



Hmmm... Dignity by name, dignity by nature.


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 27 October 2004 02:49 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Anchoress:
Hmmm... Dignity by name, dignity by nature.

Um, eventually, I guess. ^_^

quote:
Originally posted by fuslim:
Apparently, Jesse Dignity is lashing out at me ‘cause I don’t like Pro Tools.

No, that's not really it at all. I didn't like the tone of "voice" in which I felt you posted. I took offense to that. The actual factual disagreements were pretty much incidental. I mean I would have responded to them in any event, but I wouldn't have done it guns a'blazing like that.

Again, sorry.

I'd go back and edit out all the vitriol but... well I kinda think it's funny. ^_^

Back when, tape had two tracks, editing was difficult and overdubbing was impossible. In those days, musicians had to get it right the first time.

Okay this is true but surely there's something to be said for studio concoction? I mean in those days EQ'ing was unheard of, compression rudimentary, and if you wanted a mix that represented every instrument well, you had to position your two mics just so.

I mean let's be honest, as wonderful as the music may be, the bulk of early recordings, right up through the forties and into the fifties, SOUND terrible.

This may be a personal opinion only, but it wasn't until the advent of multitracking and mixing in the 50s that things really started to come alive. Heck, in many ways I consider the 60s to be the heyday of studio sound... but that's irrelevant.

What I want to say is that they good old days may have been purer, but I'm not certain what absolute value that has.

And one of those ends is fixing ‘compromised pitches’. They advertise it that way, and far be it from me to say they’re lying.

Okay yes, certainly, that's the function of one of the processors in ProTools. People use it. The biggest names in showbiz. You can hear when it's being applied, it sounds ridiculous, and it does bother me that people who have no job other than to sing and maybe dance a bit don't bother to get it right rather than fudge it. I concede all of that.

My points of contention were that (a) that's not really what ProTools is, it's just something ProTools can do and (b) you wouldn't use ProTools to correct pitch in a live performance. It's a studio suite, it's not made for applying realtime effects to a signal.

Actually B-In-B has some purpose, and was written by a very good musician (Peter Gannon). It can be used for a variety of things, including teaching.

It can certainly be used to provide a backing track while one practises soloing or melody lines or anything that can use a steady comp for an underpinning, but you're not making music.

I mean, I say this as someone whose primary means of composition is sampling, chopping and arranging bits of pre-recorded music. Band In A Box kinda is what everyone always saw as the threat from electronic music - you just tell it what the chords are and take it easy.

!!!!! You might ask yourself why they ‘have no need for (creativity)’.

I might, but considering I wrote out an explanation of just that above, I consider it a slim likelihood.

Are you presuming to judge what is and isn’t creative. Sounds like it.

Um... yes?

In any case, why is the industry whining so much about not making money? Why are they suing kids for downloading music? Apparently, their strategy of pumping (pimping) up no talent lip-synchers is not paying off.

They're making tons of money. They're suing kids for downloading music because they stand to benefit from doing so - they needn't be on the outs to do that.

Maybe that’s my problem, I always had a certain respect for the audience, and their ability to figure out what they liked and why.

Some audiences have that ability. Many audiences, while they may not lack it, never put it into use because it's not important to them.

I get the sense that you're pretty well immersed in your local music scene. Do you often speak about music to people who don't care about it as much as you do? There are a lot more of them than there are people who do.

Of course, the difference between Barry Bonds and the weekend player is that Barry Bonds plays baseball better than they do, and he had to go through a whole lot of steps to prove it.

Okay that is a very valid hole in my analogy, but my point was not to equate the majors' levels of talent, just their non-competition with the minors. Even if Ashlee Simpson was a zillion times the singer that (insert your favourite indie singer here) is, they're not playing at the same table. Neither affects the other.

All of them have rules disallowing any device that destroys the integrity of the sport. Apparently the recording industry doesn’t.

That's because music isn't a SPORT (except for rap, none of this apologia applies to bad rap). Music is not neccessarily about the process. Music can absolutely be about the end result. It's not a competition (except rap).

You know, I read B. B. King’s autobiography and there’s nothing in there about him being enslaved by the music industry.

"Enslaved", naturally, was a hyperbolic word choice but being kept on the road all but five days of the year is not indicative of a healthy career. You can bet he wasn't booking his own tours. He was exploited more than a dishwasher.

You should consider reading his book.

Well, maybe I will. I'm not that big of a fan though, to be honest. It'd have to be a pretty good book.

The blues started as ‘field hollers’. Sung phrases with no musical accompaniment, in other words, a cappella.

Yeah but BB King didn't perform the blues as it was when it was "started". He performed electric dance music with virtuoso solos.

You would not want to sit through a concert of BB King's usual selections sung a capella. That would be a waste of time.

The music that gave birth to rock and roll, jazz, and almost all popular music today, started as a cappella performance. I’ll stand by my original statement.

Well be my guest, but I can't see how what you just said even remotely supports your original statement.

If it doesn’t chart???? Where do you think music comes from? There’s a song that has ‘charted’ a number of times, “Miserlou”. That song was written hundreds of years before there were charts, radios, electricity even.

Er, are we talking about music produced within the studio system or aren't we? I wasn't trying to speak about folk traditionals...

...although you know as well as I do that if not for Dick Dale & his Deltones, Miserlou would be exactly as popular today as any other given greek folk melody...

...I'm just saying that since music became what it is today, people do not remember records that are not hits. Most of the greatest music in the world was never hits. People don't remember it, as a rule.

There’s all sorts of music around today (for instance, the blues which was just mentioned) that was written years before there was a recording industry.

Why is it still around? Because people liked it, and sang or played it over and over again, to themselves and their children.

By the same token though, you'll notice there hasn't been any music preserved in that way that was created SINCE the advent of the recording industry. Folk music is a very separate beast from popular music. They don't occupy the same world.

One last point. You seem to think the industry was ‘always’ this way. But it wasn’t. One of the big changes is the merging of recording companies, to the point where there are what? four international companies left.

The concentration in the industry has put a real damper on diversity and creativity. Instead of searching out new artists, it seems the companies just buy up someone’s old catalogue and re-issue.

That is a change that I will not deny. I certainly wasn't saying that nothing has changed, just that artists have always been exploited and that image has always superceded sheer musical talent.

In the semi-old days there were recording companies that had respect for the artists. Motown and Ahmet Ertegun is one example, the Chess brothers are another.

Very interesting examples.
http://www.culturekiosque.com/jazz/best/motown.html


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 27 October 2004 03:43 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My thoughts since this thread has gotten really long.

[Rant]
I've gotten into arguments with people over this if they're big n' famous they suck position, and if they're independent *and next to no one knows about them* they rock. Frankly a lot of these "no-names" are "no-names" for a good reason they just suck (to the vast majority of people and no they are not just "sell outs" for thinking this). Just because people aren't independent or are part of "the machine" doesn't mean they don’t have anything to offer, frankly thinking that they don’t have anything to offer is cultural snobbery. If I don't feel like sitting in some coffee shop listening to someone sing something I don’t like that doesn't mean I have no cultural taste. Remember taste is an opinion. [/Mini-Rant]

As for this actually thing I feel sorry for her, but what a cop out to blame it on her band. And yeah that Jig was sure awkward. A lesson is sing all the time, even if you suck so this sort of thing won't happen.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 October 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who thinks that a tight band, used to performing actual songs live... like the Barenaked Ladies, say... would have had no choice but to do a humiliating jig, sulk off and blame someone else?

Who thinks they would have just launched into a song, together, and maybe made a joke at the end?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 October 2004 12:37 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hehe. Now she's claiming that she suffers from chronic acid-reflux, and that she lip-synched on the advice of her doctor. Which is tantamount to saying "When the record company insisted it was a computer glitch, they were lying to you, right to your face and when I blamed my band I was lying to you, right to your face".

Who knows. Maybe even with this she's lying to us, right to our face. Everyone who thinks she's just a poor little girl who suffered an unfortunate mishap, give your heads a shake.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 12:50 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Dealing with the latter portion first - what should the major label system be doing for independant artists? The key word in this sentence is independant - i.e. outside of the major label system. To say that "the industry" should be supporting indie artists is tantamount to saying that Wal-Mart should be supporting the locally owned corner store. No matter how much one prefers the mom & pop, no matter how much more ethical they are and how their prices are better and everything - all of that makes no difference to the fact that they are an entirely separate entity and thus have incurred no obligation from The Man to support them or facilitate their existance in any way. That's what independance is. If they had support, they wouldn't be independant.

And former portion last - what in the world should Ashlee Simpson be doing for independant artists? She's an employee. Janitors don't hire the other janitors.


Well, big fucking duh!

The reason I brought up independent artists at all, is because some dumb fuck tied indie artists into this whole mess. And what dumb fuck was that? You?

And what an asshole you are proving to be. Suck your dick. I can't imagine you would find anyone else's as tasty.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pellaken1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7028

posted 27 October 2004 01:59 PM      Profile for Pellaken1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had an idea for a cartoon drawing:

the SNL set, with little broken peices left on the ground labled "My Dignity" "My Integrety" "My Respect" "My Trustworthyness" "My Singing Carrer"

with the words above:

"Ashlee Simpson, peices of me"

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: Pellaken1 ]


From: Gritland | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 27 October 2004 02:53 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And the reason manufactured pop is so wildly popular is that people want it. Kids want it. They enjoy it. It distracts them. It fills a purpose.

I don't really buy into the "kids want it" concept we're talking about something that they are indoctrinated to like there entire from lives are groomed to be enculturated into preconcieved consumption patterns.

There is no demand independent of what the industry creates. I highly doubt that A & R people are out interviewing pre-teen girls to find out what there genuine needs or interests are, they have a formula and is pushed constantly and incessantly until the response becomes almost Pavlovian.

This may appear obvious to some the reason I raise it is because I believe it fallicious to argue that attacking this crap is a form of culture elitism.

This contrived product is manufactured by the elite. It is created by the corporate powers to be consumed unquestionly by the masses.

This is not a spontaneos expression of the mass populace this is an elitist controlled product. It is as artificial as fast food and it is as toxic to the soul as fast food is to the body.It is not a matter of musical taste or even ability, if young women want to dance and sing and unashamedly do it badly all the power to them. Just don't play into corporate co-option and then expect sympathy.

Sorry but the world weary ironic "down with the pop culture" attitude is as contrived and unengaging as the crap it attempts to legitamize.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 27 October 2004 03:10 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pellaken, that's hilarious.

N.R. Kissed do you see the inherent irony in your post? The last sentence could be taken to be contradicting the rest of it.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 27 October 2004 05:24 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
N.R. Kissed do you see the inherent irony in your post? The last sentence could be taken to be contradicting the rest of it.

I'm not sure I follow you. I said "down with" meaning expressing an affinity with the pop culture, not "down on" meaning exceptionally critical of pop culture.

I don't deny I'm exceptionally critical of pop culture because I think it's an essential component of indoctrination into the dominant ideology. To attack such an ideology is not motivated by world weariness or based in cultivated irony but is a genuine desire to confront oppressive narratives. What I find tiresome is when people think they're being subversive by adopting an affinity for pop culture.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 05:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This contrived product is manufactured by the elite. It is created by the corporate powers to be consumed unquestionly by the masses.

Its a difficult argument to contradict but here goes:


quote:
"if people are wondering where can you find j.lo wear.you can find it at Macey's,Delias,etc.for like more info check out jenniferlopez.com and click on clothing line.at like Macey's the clothes are very exspensive.but j.lo's worth every penny."

quote:
Britney Spears's Curious line consists of a perfume, body souffle, shower gel and shimmer stick, each packaged in blue in pink, with simple line graphics of flowers and swirls.

quote:
Doggystyle - Snoop Doggy Dogg

Sears item #05812477000 Mfr. model #07844454

Doggystyle - Snoop Doggy Dogg



Oh, and,
quote:
Show Jay-Z Clothing Gifts
£65
From ASOS

Okay, I give up.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
f1 dad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6141

posted 27 October 2004 07:22 PM      Profile for f1 dad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So am I a stooge of capitalism for enjoying the Beatles?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4748

posted 27 October 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One practice that record companies do which I find very disturbing, is to give recording contracts to artists who they feel might compete with their high selling artists. Then they don't do anything or as little as possible to promote the new artists, leaving their careers to dwindle and die, so they don't compete. They are under contract, so they are not free to do their own recordings or arrange their own appearances.

Radio airplay is crucial to an artist's success. You don't get on commercial radio unless your record company pays the station (in the US, not sure about Canada). So it's not possible for someone to have a great record and just start getting airplay, unless it's on a college or independent station.

Since the FCC relaxed rules on station ownership (under Clinton, damn him) and then the monopoly rules were basically repealed under the current administration, there are fewer and fewer independent stations.

For booking concerts, many venues have been bought by large companies, such as US radio giant ClearChannel. This huge company owns not only multiple radio stations in almost every large US market, but concert venues as well. If they don't like an artist for whatever reason, they have a great deal of power to limit airplay and live shows.

ClearChannel is a very conservative company which donates to the Republicans and organizes pro-war rallies. The infamous Dixie Chicks boycott was started by ClearChannel DJ's and supported by the corporation.

I think there is a lot of hope in internet radio, small record labels and possibly sattelite radio. Musicians can now record and release their own albums without the help of a recording industry. But the vast bulk of music is controled by large companies who don't care about fans or artists, but the bottom line.

So this is the problem I have with the music industry. It's not that music from major labels is not good music or that people shouldn't enjoy it. There is great music and crap and everything in between on big labels and small independent projects. It's the corporate practices I have a hard time swallowing.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 27 October 2004 09:21 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a little info on Chess records that may be interesting:

quote:
"In addition to Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and Little Walter, Chess recorded many other giants of post- war American blues such as Sonny Boy Williamson, Lowell Fulson, Memphis Slim, Jimmy Rogers, John Lee Hooker and Willie Mabon.

Later, they recorded the next generation of Chicago blues artists with Buddy Guy, Little Milton and Koko Taylor.

...In 1955, on a vacation trip to Chicago a young singer and guitar player from St. Louis named Chuck Berry met Muddy Waters, who encouraged him to see the Chess brothers.

...With Chuck Berry, Chess Records had a singer whose sound could not be duplicated with cover records by white recording artists. Chuck Berry recorded for the Chess brothers for many years producing hit after hit."


Note that Muddy Waters, the greatest of the Chicago blues artists 'encouraged' Chuck Berry to see the Chess brothers. Hardly the thing someone who thought Chess were thieves would do.

As far as Ruth Brown and Atlantic, first I'll say that I'm a huge Ruth Brown fan. Atlantic did her dirt, they deserve to be lashed for it.

At the same time, according to the Rock I& Roll Hall of Fame:

quote:
Atlantic was at the forefront of great independent labels that sprang up in the late Forties, challenging the primacy of the major labels of the time (RCA, Columbia and Decca) by discovering, developing and nurturing new talent.

Under the guiding hand of Ertegun - the son of a career diplomat and a lifelong jazz and blues aficionado - Atlantic became the nation's premier rhythm & blues label in a few short years.


According to another story:

quote:
Atlantic's business practices allowed them to hire the best musicians in the business. When it was industry practice to pay royalties below 2 percent -- or in the case of many black artists, no royalties at all -- Atlantic was paying 3 to 5 percent.

I don't want to go to far in defending Chess and Atlantic because it's true they did not pay artists as well as they should have.

However, compared to what the rest of the industry was doing to black artists in those days, they were angels of mercy.

Ruth Brown also acknowledged Ertegun's contribution to her career:

quote:
One of the reasons for her success was her association with songwriter Rudy Toombs, composer of Teardrops: "A man who was full of life, effervescent and happy", Ruth told Arnold Shaw, "He showed that in his songs - all bouncy and jolly.

The things he was doing were different rhythmically from what I was into. I was more of a pop torch singer. I preferred the ballads.

But since Ahmet Ertegun and Herb Abramsons seemed a step ahead of what was going to be the accepted sound, I went along with them and picked up on the tunes that Rudy wrote for me."


Atlantic was also the first company to put on an integrated show in the US.

So Atlantic and Chess were definitely in the forefront of bringing black artists to the broader American audience, and deserved to be recogninzed as such.

One last little item. In an earlier post it was mentioned that pop stars were to my Sunday evening jam session guys as Barry Bonds was to weekend softball players.

I made my comments on that comparison, but I didn't give the weekend guys the rating they deserve.

Among those weekend jammers are one musician with two (Canadian) platinum albums, a keyboard player that recorded with Jerry Doucette, a guitar player that co-wrote and recorded with Marianne Faithful, and a variety of others of equal musical calibre.

Any one of these musicians has more soul in their little finger than most of the current crop of pop tarts put together.

I've had my say, for better or worse. Or, as Johnny Winter said in "You Keep Tellin' Me You're Leavin'",

Now I've told you everything, and I got nothin' more to say.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 28 October 2004 02:09 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I think this constant evasion of responsibility that Ashlee Simpson seems to be exhibiting is essentially teenage behavior under stress. (She may be 20, but I know when I was 20 in many ways I still thought, felt, and acted like a 17 or 18 year old. Maturity is not all of a piece, and to assume otherwise is a bad idea.)

This points up the larger problem: These young people are thrust into the spotlight, with all the attendant fame, fortune and (for the most part) good life that this brings.

Even an adult at the age of 30 might be hard-pressed to deal responsibly with such a situation, never mind someone who's 18, 19 or 20.

Is it any wonder that if you're a teen idol, and you fall flat on your face, your reaction under stress might well be accentuated by a very understandable fear that one's meteoric rise can be an equally meteoric fall?

The broader social problem and context that I'm trying to point to is the sudden-fame phenomenon that we're visiting on people because of the media-centered nature of our society and our society's increasing obsession with looks.

It's not healthy in the long run. Not for these individuals and certainly not for society itself, because the kind of attitudes I'm seeing here, which show a distinct lack of compassion for a young woman who's going to learn some hard lessons and have a mistake shoved in her face for years to come, are indicative of a social trend (IMHO) towards being less and less tolerant of simple mistakes.

As we come to expect physical perfection in those we see on billboards, TV and movies, so too do we expect perfection emotionally and psychologically.

I suspect this attitude filters down into daily life, and we will find a reinforcement of social trends that become intolerant of imperfections in human beings, whatever those imperfections may be.

That, to me, is not a good sign of a healthy society.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 28 October 2004 02:12 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In addition to Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and Little Walter, Chess recorded many other giants of post- war American blues such as Sonny Boy Williamson, Lowell Fulson, Memphis Slim, Jimmy Rogers, John Lee Hooker and Willie Mabon.

I have a record of Sonny Boy Williamson's in which he and Leonard Chess have an argument during the recording of Ninety-nine. I haven't listened to it for a few years, and I can't find my speaker wires since I moved, but the dialogue goes something like:

Chess: "Hold it, hold it, cut. Sonny Boy, less blowing on the intro, man."

Rice Miller (Sonny Boy's real name) "Mumble mumble...mo'fo'..."

Chess: "I know man, but, you blow two choruses before you start singing, you know what I'm saying?"

Sonny Boy: "I know what you're saying, but you don't know what'll sell."

Chess: "I know, but I don't want any shit on this record, man...I want some strong shit...like that second woman you got."

Sonny Boy: "Mumble...mo' fo' mumble...alright, alright!"

Blows a little harp, then stops suddenly

Sonny Boy: "How d'you say, 'cut the intro' when you got your...nose, up that man's ass? Get up here, mo'fo' so I can see what the hell you're doing!"

[ 28 October 2004: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 28 October 2004 02:21 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:

I'm not sure I follow you. I said "down with" meaning expressing an affinity with the pop culture, not "down on" meaning exceptionally critical of pop culture.

I don't deny I'm exceptionally critical of pop culture because I think it's an essential component of indoctrination into the dominant ideology. To attack such an ideology is not motivated by world weariness or based in cultivated irony but is a genuine desire to confront oppressive narratives. What I find tiresome is when people think they're being subversive by adopting an affinity for pop culture.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED


I'm just referring to the idea that because something is associated with an "industrialized" musical expression it's suddenly bad -- although reading your post I understand your reasoning and agree with it somewhat. The reason I thought the "down with pop culture" statement was ironic is because I view that rallying against clichéd and industrialized culture a tad clichéd at times too. Some good things come out of commercially linked artistic expressions, in spite of their association with crass/mass commercialism.

If someone chooses to watch or listen to something, regardless of the view of some that they are indoctrinated into watching it, they do have that freedom of choice. Most of it's crap yes, most of it's devoid of any particularly "positive" meaning yes, but it's not as if someone is putting a gun to there head and saying WATCH! I prefer people come to the conclusion of what's good and what's not good, referring to the 'artistic' value of something anyways, on their own. Opinions are very subjective and it's difficult to agree on the value of it. For instance most people agree Britney Spears doesn't really contribute much of anything to anything but still I'm not going to worry about the state of society because some people think she's important. She's not and most people can come to that conclusion on their own.

Oh well I guess I got just a little off topic here.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
statica
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1420

posted 28 October 2004 09:36 AM      Profile for statica   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
From Lucky Magazine interview:
LM: What are your takes on lip-synching?
AS: I'm totally against it and offended by it. I'm going out to let my real talent show, not to just stand there and dance around. Personally, I'd never lip-synch. It's just not me.


FLIP-FLOPPER!


From: t-oront-o | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4748

posted 28 October 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
You know, I think this constant evasion of responsibility that Ashlee Simpson seems to be exhibiting is essentially teenage behavior under stress. (She may be 20, but I know when I was 20 in many ways I still thought, felt, and acted like a 17 or 18 year old. Maturity is not all of a piece, and to assume otherwise is a bad idea.)

This points up the larger problem: These young people are thrust into the spotlight, with all the attendant fame, fortune and (for the most part) good life that this brings.

Even an adult at the age of 30 might be hard-pressed to deal responsibly with such a situation, never mind someone who's 18, 19 or 20.

Is it any wonder that if you're a teen idol, and you fall flat on your face, your reaction under stress might well be accentuated by a very understandable fear that one's meteoric rise can be an equally meteoric fall?

The broader social problem and context that I'm trying to point to is the sudden-fame phenomenon that we're visiting on people because of the media-centered nature of our society and our society's increasing obsession with looks.

It's not healthy in the long run. Not for these individuals and certainly not for society itself, because the kind of attitudes I'm seeing here, which show a distinct lack of compassion for a young woman who's going to learn some hard lessons and have a mistake shoved in her face for years to come, are indicative of a social trend (IMHO) towards being less and less tolerant of simple mistakes.

As we come to expect physical perfection in those we see on billboards, TV and movies, so too do we expect perfection emotionally and psychologically.

I suspect this attitude filters down into daily life, and we will find a reinforcement of social trends that become intolerant of imperfections in human beings, whatever those imperfections may be.

That, to me, is not a good sign of a healthy society.


LOL
I hardly expect people to be perfect, just to have a basic level of integrity.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 29 October 2004 12:28 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
The reason I brought up independent artists at all, is because some dumb fuck tied indie artists into this whole mess. And what dumb fuck was that? You?

What in the world are you talking about, kindly genius? The first time I mentioned independant artists was in response to your post. I was asking genuine questions in response to what you said because I didn't understand why you said it. You've got your dumb fucks muddled - I'm a different one from whichever one was the first to mention independant artists.

Look I may have come off as an asshole in this thread generally, which I regret, but my only post directed to you was (a modicum of "duh" notwithstanding) entirely civil. I suggest you search this thread for the words "independant", "independent" and "indie", and note their earliest occurances. It's all right there. You're behaving very strangely.

quote:
Suck your dick. I can't imagine you would find anyone else's as tasty.

Sorry man, it was funnier when I said it.

----

quote:
originally posted by N.R.KISSED
There is no demand independent of what the industry creates. I highly doubt that A & R people are out interviewing pre-teen girls to find out what there genuine needs or interests are, they have a formula and is pushed constantly and incessantly until the response becomes almost Pavlovian.

Please tell me more about this formula. You're not going to hear me arguing that encouraging consumption isn't the primary goal of major businesses, but there's some element of exploiting the desires of the public involved in that. You don't understand that any genuine interest can exist for forms of culture you don't respect, therefore anything appearing to be interest must have been produced in a laboratory and foisted upon the poor doggies, eh?

You're going to have to work a little harder than you are to even remotely kindle an impression that this view is not extremely elitist.

quote:
[qb]Sorry but the world weary ironic "down with the pop culture" attitude is as contrived and unengaging as the crap it attempts to legitamize.

What, my world-weary, ironic attitude? It isn't ironic. I'm being quite genuine. I think you don't know anything about how music is made or marketed and furthermore I don't think you're revealing very much in the way of a basic level of respect for humankind.

I'm not being subversive, I just finally went out to some dance clubs instead of concerts and started to understand that music exists for more purposes than just plain listening to.

--

Melsky's post about radio play, clear channel and independance is a good one. People misidentify the problems in the major label system and do themselves and the world of music no favours by railing against inaccurate conceptions.

On the other hand, Melsky, regarding your last post - I'm not certain I understand why anyone not personally acquainted with Ms. Simpson requires even a basic level of integrity from her, as her actions will never be your problem. I also don't understand how a basic level of integrity would extend to telling an astronomical number of strangers exactly why you took part in the least consequential travesty (haha) our culture has endured in perhaps decades.

--

quote:
originally posted by fuslimAmong those weekend jammers are one musician with two (Canadian) platinum albums, a keyboard player that recorded with Jerry Doucette, a guitar player that co-wrote and recorded with Marianne Faithful, and a variety of others of equal musical calibre.

Um, how are you going to rail against the industry and then use its own system of accolades to illustrate the quality of the players you tout as being outside the system?

I mean I think Marianne Faithfull is great, but platinum records? Whose measuring instrument is that? The MAN'S, that's whose!


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 29 October 2004 01:17 AM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry man, it was funnier when I said it.

No it wasn't. Nothing you've said is remotely funny, clever most of your statements are barely coherent. Your logic is either circular or non-existent.

You talk about other people respecting humanity you can't even show a minimum of respect to people who have minor disagreements with you.

You call others elitist at the same time telling everyone else how little they know about music industry.

sorry we should all hail to your infinite wisdom.

and of course no one is indoctrinated in any way in western capistalim. The billions spent on marketing ,advertising and the media are all just a spontaneous desire to give the kids what they want.

You claim I disrespect humanity because I would challenge those who seek to control and manipulate? It is due to my respect for humanity that I challenge those who are exploitive.

quote:
You don't understand that any genuine interest can exist for forms of culture you don't respect,

Ashley Simpson is not culture she is commerce she is part of a mass produced product. Is there no distinction to be made by a bowl hand crafted by a potter and one that is mass produced.

Are you trying to say that formulas or templates or molds are used in the "creation" of certain "cultural" products.

Further this is not about my tastes there are forms of music I may personally not be moved by but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate the innovation originality and creativity that went into it. I can also appreciate a catchy hook for being a catchy hook.


As far as not knowing how music is made, I have been making music before the misfortune of your birth GOBSHITE ! , so fuck you.

[ 29 October 2004: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 29 October 2004 04:16 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
originally posted by N.R.Kissed
No it wasn't. Nothing you've said is remotely funny, clever

Gracious, have I met my match at last? That was a pretty lively rejoinder.

Here I am, like "I'm funny!"
and you're all "Oh no you aren't!"
and a hush fell over the pool room...

quote:
Your logic is either circular or non-existent.

I haven't made that many logical arguments. Not that I've made a lot of illogical arguments either, it's just that not that much of what I've said has rested on much in the way of of logical support.

quote:
You talk about other people respecting humanity you can't even show a minimum of respect to people who have minor disagreements with you.

Well, I may be rough-housing a little but the truth is I am affording a minimum of respect at least in that I'm endeavouring to react to and learn from the positions of others. I am engaging people in debate. Now, did the whole tone of this thread go sour? Yes. Was it my fault? Almost entirely. Like I said, I do regret the bad feelings but ... well, only so much, I guess. I don't think I really really broke anyone's heart. I think everyone's still pretty much got his dignity intact. I think we can move on from here.

But I do reserve the right to meet snark with snark, even if it is all my fault in the first place.

quote:
You call others elitist at the same time telling everyone else how little they know about music industry.

I suppose I do subscribe to a particular variety of intellectual elitism where I'm not too keen on people explaining the inner workings of things with which they are observably unfamiliar. But hey, I do it too. And when I get called on it, I give it some thought, and I admit that I've done it.

We're all super geniuses. We've all sussed out the Secret Truths about Almost Everything. And we mostly haven't got a leg to stand on. Sometimes we can fudge it. Sometimes we completely play ourselves and need chiding when we're caught.

quote:
sorry we should all hail to your infinite wisdom.

Well I suppose there is that option although what I expected was a little bit more in the vein of indicating points of disagreement and having a dialogue. Just because I don't have an obsequiously humble internet persona doesn't mean I'm not listening. I do ask questions for purposes beyond mere rhetoric, now and then.

quote:
and of course no one is indoctrinated in any way in western capistalim.

you have the cutest typos!

quote:
The billions spent on marketing, advertising and the media are all just a spontaneous desire to give the kids what they want.

You have the cutest incredibly mistaken interpretation of what I said above!

quote:
You claim I disrespect humanity because I would challenge those who seek to control and manipulate? It is due to my respect for humanity that I challenge those who are exploitive.

Would you challenge them? You hadn't indicated that you would. In what manner would you challenge those who seek to control and manipulate? Were you thinking of revealing their insidious plots on a lot of internet message boards?

The thing is, I feel silly. If I'd realized you were challenging The Man, I probably wouldn't have made fun of you. It's just that I mistakenly got the impression that all you were really doing was condescending to the mindless zombied masses so as to subtly illuminate what a jolly free-thinker you yourself must be in contrast.

How did I overlook the challenge?

quote:
Ashley Simpson is not culture she is commerce she is part of a mass produced product. Is there no distinction to be made by a bowl hand crafted by a potter and one that is mass produced.

In terms of what is and what is not culture, as it happens, no there is no distinction to be made. Can you make the case that commerce is divorced from culture? Where does it come from, if so?

---

shoot, I wanted to get to the rest of your post but it's 4am and I have to get to bed. I'll pick it up tomorrow.

moment of sober reflection: I'm honestly not trying to JUST be a dick (although flirting with dickishness can at times be irresistable). I don't have ill will for anyone who's posted in this thread. It's all in the realm of civilized debate. I hope I'm not upsetting anyone, at least not too deeply.

Remember that if I'm wrong and you know I'm wrong, you can always always take me up on it. I mean, I think I'm right but what do I know?

Tons, I know tons... but some of it could be erroneous.

anyway yeah, more to come...


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 29 October 2004 10:54 AM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Gracious, have I met my match at last? That was a pretty lively rejoinder.

I was being obvious with intent with the hope of gettting one simple message across your whole schtick is tired, tiresome and infantile.

You seem desperately trying to portray your self as a wild and crazy guy but it appears most people just experience you as an irritating asshole.

You think you’re being provocative but you’re just being an irritating asshole.

You think you’re being engaging but you’re just being an irritating asshole.

You appear to think "When I tell people to “suck my dick” I’m being ever so funny. The truth is others are just not sophisticated enough to appreciate it. It’s not so much the content that makes me so witty it’s the delivery, the raised eyebrow, smirk and bored sarcasm allows me to subvert the whole concept of funny, so that something drastically unfunny becomes magically transformed into unrestrained hilarity."

You pointing out your assholeishness doesn't even come across as genuine self-deprecation it just reminds me of a child who when he feels threatened on the playground feels compelled, starts punching himself to avoid a potential attack from others.

quote:
flirting with dickishness

I mean really "flirting with dickishness"

Your relationship to dickishness could be better described as a case of long standing serial bigamy with the entire extended dickishness family.

[ 29 October 2004: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 29 October 2004 07:13 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The latest from IMDB:

quote:
It now turns out that a news team from CBS's 60 Minutes was shooting a feature about how NBC's Saturday Night Live is produced when the commotion over Ashlee Simpson's botched performance occurred. After Simpson's voice was heard singing the same song she had sung earlier in the show, Simpson danced for a few seconds, then ran offstage -- and into 60 Minutes' cameras, which recorded her reaction and show creator Lorne Michaels.' CBS said Thursday that reporter Lesley Stahl and the 60 Minutes cameras were also on hand during the dress rehearsal, when Simpson again ran off stage.

From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
What in the world are you talking about, kindly genius? The first time I mentioned independant artists was in response to your post.

And you, being an arrogant fuck-wad, think if you didn't say it, it is of no consequence.

quote:

Look I may have come off as an asshole in this thread generally, which I regret, but my only post directed to you was (a modicum of "duh" notwithstanding) entirely civil.


Yes, you do come off as an asshole. And perhaps you shouldn't have addressed me at all if you can't help but be an asshole.

quote:

I suggest you search this thread for the words "independant", "independent" and "indie", and note their earliest occurances. It's all right there. You're behaving very strangely.

Maybe you are too stupid and lacking in basic decency to recognize this is a public board. With a single post I can respond to several posts from any number of posters. My initial post was quite general and quite respectful. You chose to respond as an asshole.

quote:

quote:Suck your dick. I can't imagine you would find anyone else's as tasty.

Sorry man, it was funnier when I said it.


Quite the little fucked up egotist aren't you? But it would not surprise me if you did tell yourself, first, to suck on your own dick. I am sure you are the only one capable of being close to you on any plane.

I mean, don't get me wrong. Some people can be assholes and do it so well. You do it so poorly.

You can search these threads for many examples of assholes who can leave everyone at least smiling even if a little annoyed. Your lack of skill and intelligence (no, being an asshole in and of itself is not intelligence, asshole) is just annoying without any redeeming quality at all.

The best you have is the rather childish "suck my dick" and it ends there and proceeds no further. You would think, just for variety, every now and then you could add "raw" or something else to the end. But no, nothing. Just plenty of what we would expect from an untrained and unpractised asshole.

And arrogant yet.

Sure, some assholes can be arrogant. They have earned it. They have demonstrated an ability to be rued while ruling. Your just rude.

And I think a little stupid.

Rude and stupid. An arrogant, rude and stupid, asshole in love with his own dick.

What do you call yourself, again? Dickhead?

Yeah, Dickhead. Got it.

[ 30 October 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 30 October 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who is Ashlee Simpson, and why should we care?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 02:00 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't really. But when will be my next justified opportunity to properly identify someone as a dickhead? Or even use the word?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NRK> I have this problem where I think you're mistaken in almost everything you just said.

I don't have a schtick. I am not trying to portray myself as anything. I'm sorry if you've experienced me as an irritating asshole. I'm totally aware of how that happened. It's my fault. It's a shame. I'd prefer to move on but it seems the wounds were deeper than I'd guessed. Further shame.

I'm not trying to be provocative. My initial post was sort of a gentle rebuke to the whole internet (certainly not just this board or anything) because I felt like taking this much glee in someone's humiliation was probably unhealthy. (I also underestimated the girl's age though, I'm not really familiar with her in particular). Then I disagreed with a few things a few people said and the crabbiness snowballed. I'm not really interested in provoking anyone, you see? I just disagree with things that some people say, so I contradict them. I'm trying to have dialogue.

I was, I guess, trying to be engaging. Obviously that isn't working the way I wanted it to, because after a few back and forth, here we are talking about what's wrong with me instead of anything even tangentially relevant to the thread.

It actually was the content of "suck my dick" that was supposed to be funny. It was meant to indicate "oh please" in an absurdly inappropriate manner. It wasn't the gag of the century. The point of saying "it was funnier when I said it" wasn't to indicate that I'm just about the funniest person possible, it was to mock the wit of the "suck your own dick" rejoinder. The principle I'm working on here is that it's really poor form to respond to any insult with "no, that's YOU!". As in, it doesn't win any points. As in, you're better off leaving it alone. Uh, hopefully I've explained that sufficiently now.

I have employed no bored sarcasm in this thread except maybe for stuff like "have I met my match at last". Even then, it's not as bored as you may presume.

I have never pointed out "my assholishness". I am not trying to self-deprecate. Your example of a child punching himself is very weird and I hope you haven't seen examples of that behaviour very often. But yeah, I'm not an asshole. I've made a few missteps in this thread. If you're expecting self-deprecation when I acknowledge them, I can see how my downright blithe feelings toward them might make that seem inauthentic, but it's not so much false as it is absent.

So yeah, the admission of my original fault is genuine. But I don't feel very bad about it because the main upshot that's come of it is a big discussion that makes up in vehemence what it lacks in communication. No-one's character has really been assaulted, just over-heated arguments and barbs thrown around.

Oh wait that's right... my character is being assaulted right now... but fortunately for me, I don't mind very much. It's not that I wouldn't prefer it if you liked me or whatever, but I figure if I stick around people will start to get me better and this will all get contextualized and it won't seem very important anymore anyway. It's all just petty argument.

On the plus side:

quote:
Your relationship to dickishness could be better described as a case of long standing serial bigamy with the entire extended dickishness family.

That WAS funny. It would have worked better if you had said maybe "polygamy" instead of "bigamy" because the latter term is specific to two mates, but pedantry aside that was a respectable burn. Why didn't just say stuff like that in the first place instead of getting all chilly?

Now, I need to add this reply and open a new one to respond to Wingnut. He's really confusing me here...


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 30 October 2004 02:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can any of you guys sing?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 03:07 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now, I need to add this reply and open a new one to respond to Wingnut. He's really confusing me here...

oh, boy. i can't wait ...

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 03:36 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
But when will be my next justified opportunity to properly identify someone as a dickhead? Or even use the word?

Okay I'm thinking this explains why you seem to have gotten a little over-excited in this response and maybe mixed a few things up. I mean, unless Fuslim or NR Kiss once saved your life or something I don't even get why you're so upset with me. I didn't insult you. Worst thing I said you was suggesting something you said was obvious. Hell, that's not even disagreeing.

You never seen a dickhead before or something?

Look, mainly I want to talk to you about this "independant artists" thing because we're reading a bit of a flip-flop in your position, to borrow a phrase from south of the border.

Let me retrace the path that gets us to where you say:

quote:
And you, being an arrogant fuck-wad, think if you didn't say it, it is of no consequence.

Right so okay, this is a response to me saying:

quote:
The first time I mentioned independant artists was in response to your post.

which was in response to you saying:

quote:
The reason I brought up independent artists at all, is because some dumb fuck tied indie artists into this whole mess. And what dumb fuck was that? You?

which was in response to me saying:

quote:
Dealing with the latter portion first - what should the major label system be doing for independant artists? The key word in this sentence is independant - i.e. outside of the major label system. To say that "the industry" should be supporting indie artists is tantamount to saying that Wal-Mart should be supporting the locally owned corner store. No matter how much one prefers the mom & pop, no matter how much more ethical they are and how their prices are better and everything - all of that makes no difference to the fact that they are an entirely separate entity and thus have incurred no obligation from The Man to support them or facilitate their existance in any way. That's what independance is. If they had support, they wouldn't be independant.

And former portion last - what in the world should Ashlee Simpson be doing for independant artists? She's an employee. Janitors don't hire the other janitors.


(which, I'd like to indicate for the record, contains not a trace of snark or irony)

which was in response to you saying:

quote:
Artists(?) like Ashely Simpson do absolutley nothing for independent artists and are constructs of the recording industry, which as we know, provides little support for independent artists.

which is two posts after aRoused posted:

quote:
So what exactly is your complaint, fuslim? Many of the musicians that I know recording out of their living rooms use software like Pro Tools to record and edit their music so they don't have to pay a professional studio big bucks to do it for them, plus they've got greater control over the final product.

But you want Pro Tools to just be for the 'musically challenged' to fix their blunders.

Thank you for labeling the independent music scene 'musically challenged' by crapping all over the software they use and the measures they frequently have to take to get their music out there without industry support.


which was the absolute first mention of independent musicians in the thread, as such. Certainly it's before I ever said anything about them. I did, I suppose, use the phrase "Indier-than-thou" to describe the way I used to be in high school when I thought I was too good to listen to popular music, but that can't be said to have introduced independent musicians to the conversation.

So now that we've had a Memento-style recap, can I just put things back in order for a quick recap and maybe show you why it confuses me?

The sequence of releveant events in this thread is like this:

Everyone - "Ha ha Ashlee, way to go"
Jesse - "Hey leave the kid alone"
Someone - "Nah she deserves it, she's a hack"
Jesse - "well not entirely and I still think she doesn't deserve it"
Fuslim - "Anyone who's a real musician doesn't need a crutch like a lipsync track or pro-tools"
aRoused - "Hey indie artists use protools, are you saying they're not real musicians!?"
WingNut - "Ashlee Simpson (not an artist) does absolutely nothing for independent artists. The recording industry does very little for independent artists"
Jesse - "that goes without saying because no-one expects Ashlee Simpson to do anything for independant artists and if the industrry was doing anything for independant artists, then they would not be independant artists!"
Wingnut - "The reason I brought up independent artists at all, is because some dumb fuck tied indie artists into this whole mess. And what dumb fuck was that? You?"
Jesse - "um what? I only mentioned them in response to you...?"
Wingnut - "And you, being an arrogant fuck-wad, think if you didn't say it, it is of no consequence."
Jesse - *head explodes*

Okay, sorry for the bloated analysis, but do you see where the contradiction is here?

(1) you bring up indie artists
(2) you say you only did because I did first
(2b) I say oh no I didn't, you did
(3) you say that it doesn't matter to me because I didn't bring them up

The question I'm left with is this:

Are you actually participating in some other argument that has nothing at all to do with anything that actually happened in this thread?

Failing that, are you frigging joking?

--

quote:
Yes, you do come off as an asshole. And perhaps you shouldn't have addressed me at all if you can't help but be an asshole.

I wasn't an asshole to you. I was rude to Fuslim in a moment of arrogant self-assurance (and then again, repeatedly, in subsequent moments of defensive pique). If you like, I can be an asshole to you right now and suggest that you stop being such a fucking crybaby, but I don't see what good it would do for my reputation at this point.

quote:
Maybe you are too stupid and lacking in basic decency to recognize this is a public board.

Not to nitpick, but I'm not following you on how my lack of basic decency clouds my realization of the potential for general address in this forum. Surely the stupidity can account for that all on its own?

quote:
My initial post was quite general and quite respectful.

I know, that's why I'm so confused about why that stopped and you got all crunchy on me!?

quote:
You chose to respond as an asshole.

No I didn't, no I didn't, no I didn't. Look, I've been genuinely offensive to enough poor souls in this thread that the difference between my manner when being unkind and the rest of the time should be pretty stark and evident.

quote:
Quite the little fucked up egotist aren't you? But it would not surprise me if you did tell yourself, first, to suck on your own dick. I am sure you are the only one capable of being close to you on any plane.

I know this hellish quagmire of personal invective will never firm up if I don't quit drawing it out, but my god man, whether anyone agrees I'm witty or doesn't, you owe it to yourself to keep away from pithy remarks if that's how bad you're going to twist them up.

At least NRK came up with a decent burn.

quote:
I mean, don't get me wrong. Some people can be assholes and do it so well. You do it so poorly.

Right, well, we can keep one another company in that column then.

quote:
Your lack of skill and intelligence (no, being an asshole in and of itself is not intelligence, asshole) is just annoying without any redeeming quality at all.

My most delicious little cupcake, please refer to the timeline earlier in this thread and sort that out before we start getting into any such serious accusations as who's got all the brains and who hasn't. You contradicted yourself twice. It looks very stupid. I'm willing to drop it if you are.

quote:
The best you have is the rather childish "suck my dick" and it ends there and proceeds no further. You would think, just for variety, every now and then you could add "raw" or something else to the end. But no, nothing. Just plenty of what we would expect from an untrained and unpractised asshole.

Jesus, you're off on a whole tangent here, aren't you!? Dude just for the sake of next time you get all juiced up for a donnybrook like this, I think I should advise you that this "asshole report card" portion of our programme is not testing well. You are not actually gaining any ground on me by critiquing the phrase "suck my dick". Although it has proven to be quite the speaking point, a quick refresher glance down the thread will demonstrate that abso-fuckin-lutely nothing I've argued in this thread relies upon the application of that phrase whatsoever. I employed it in an aside to brush off any suggestion that I owed Fuslim an apology for underestimating his Pro-Tools credentials. I'm quite willing to entertain a motion from ANYone in the gallery tonight who would like to see it stricken from the record.

What I'm saying is - get over it. I didn't even say it to you. You must have a keenly sympathetic nature.

(except, I suppose, inasmuch as such a thing might apply to disgraced pop starlets...)

quote:
Your just rude.

I'm not just rude!

quote:
And I think a little stupid.

uh... yeah I guess you do.

quote:
Rude and stupid. An arrogant, rude and stupid, asshole in love with his own dick.

Hey man, I only brought it up the once. Well, twice, but they were close together and about the same thing.

We wouldn't be talking about my thingy right now if everyone wouldn't keep bringing it up like this.

Can I move to not talk about my dick anymore? Any seconds?


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 04:40 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What? That's it? I waited for that?

If you noticed, and I am sure you didn't, before you copied and pasted and conducted calculations, the item in question in which you base so much, ended with a question mark. Really. It did. Look:

"and what dumb fuck was that? You?"<-See? Question mark. What did I tell ya?

Because you see, ya dumb fuck, I didn't know who brought it up first. But it wasn't you, was it? So why were you fucking bugging me in the first place? I know why. Because you are an asshole.

Now just fuckoff like a good boy, okay?

[ 30 October 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 05:11 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh okay now it makes some basic kind of sense

love,
jesse

p.s. no it doesn't


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, actually it does. See, I said "what dumb fuck was that." and you immediately assumed it was you I was speaking of as who else it could it be?

It's an honest mistake.

Peace and Love,
Nutz.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 30 October 2004 06:10 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I said I wasn't going to address this issue any more, and I won't.

However, Jesse Dignity has posted a quote attributed to me:

quote:
Fuslim - "Anyone who's a real musician doesn't need a crutch like a lipsync track or pro-tools"

I have searched this topic for this phrase and can't find it.

I'd like to point out that falsifying quotes is a serious thing.

You are entitled to use quotation marks when you quote directly from a source.

What you posted as a quote from me was your paraphrase of what I said, and not a very accurate one at that.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Anchoress
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4650

posted 01 November 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for Anchoress     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm, this is ironic, just one week after Ashlee. From IMDB:

quote:
Bosses of American satirical show Saturday Night Live were left embarrassed by Eminem last night when the rapper lipsynced through parts of his two performances on the show. A week after Ashlee Simpson's miming fiasco made headlines, Eminem failed to keep up with his own guide track as he performed politically-charged "Mosh" and new hit "Just Lose It." This came after guest host Kate Winslet poked fun at last week's lip-syncing controversy during her opening monologue. She said, "I'm thrilled to be hosting Saturday Night Live. I can assure you it is live because I'm hyperventilating a bit. I do however wish it wasn't the week after the Ashlee Simpson incident because now I really do have to perform live." Winslet then showed off her tap-dancing and singing skills - to prove that the show was completely live. Winslet's stint on the show was a hit - she played Norah Jones and a female Dr. Frankenstein in skits on the program. Meanwhile, Saturday Night Live writers further poked fun at Simpson when regular comic Horatio Sanz performed, Ashlee Simpson' you're a phoney...' to the tune of Elton John's "Tiny Dancer."

Is there a mole in the SNL tech department?


From: Vancouver babblers' meetup July 9 @ Cafe Deux Soleil! | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 02 November 2004 02:14 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Who is Ashlee Simpson, and why should we care?

You SAID IT, al-Q...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 02 November 2004 01:48 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have this problem where I think you're mistaken in almost everything you just said.
I don't have a schtick. I am not trying to portray myself as anything. I'm sorry if you've experienced me as an irritating asshole. I'm totally aware of how that happened. It's my fault. It's a shame. I'd prefer to move on but it seems the wounds were deeper than I'd guessed. Further shame.

I don't have a problem in being wrong and I admit what I was doing was to a large extent idle specualtion. The speculation was motivated in a genuine inability to comprehend your communication style.

You say you aren't sarcastic yet

quote:
The thing is, I feel silly. If I'd realized you were challenging The Man, I probably wouldn't have made fun of you. It's just that I mistakenly got the impression that all you were really doing was condescending to the mindless zombied masses so as to subtly illuminate what a jolly free-thinker you yourself must be in contrast.

Not only is this sarcastic, mocking and dismissive it misses the point entirely. I was talking about challenging an intellectual concept I hardly harbour illusions of starting the revolution online. I do, however, think it worthwhile to examine how certain concepts are constructed and mediated by those with power to disseminate their view of the world widely and effectively.

I do not agree with the way "pop culture" is constructed and I do not identify people solely through their consumer habits. For this I am somehow being "condescending."

You also claim you wish to engage in dialogue yet with both Fuslim and myself you more than once claimed that we knew nothing about how music was made or marketed. You didn't really specify from what position of special knowledge you might be able to make such a statement, nor did you back up this statement with any knowledge you might have. Seeing that both Fuslim and myself are musicians you might think we would know at least something about music. Maybe not...Just if you want to engage people in dialogue you might wish to modify your style or you could just bring up a certain appendage if you prefer.
consequently

quote:
It was meant to indicate "oh please" in an absurdly inappropriate manner.
That would be context over content. I can be pedantic also.

From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged

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