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Author Topic: Walk for Israel
Macabee
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posted 29 May 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Possibly the largest Jewish cultural event in Canada and one of the largest in the world, I just returned from the Walk for Israel held in downtown Toronto.

People from all faith backrounds, ethnicities and cultures particpated, close to 20,000 strong. Children, adults lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate. It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 May 2005 02:54 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thats too bad. Sorry to hear about that.

Tell me, had attendance gone down in recent years, or is it about the same?


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Cueball
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posted 31 May 2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
However the good news is:

The Toronto Sun reports attendance at 25,000 in 2003, this years is apparently less.

Also encouraging is that out of some 114,000 Jewish people living in Toronto far less than 20,000 (given that numbers are bulked up by misguided "people from all faith backrounds, ethnicities and cultures") show up for the annual neo-facist rally.


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lagatta
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posted 31 May 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moving a bit to the north and the west, I was invited to a reception at the Italian Consulate for Il Giorno della Repubblica, the 1st of June. Not going. Berlusconi and his fascist friends make me sick. (I mean fascist quite literally, as one party descends directly from Mussolini's)
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Cueball
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posted 31 May 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Did I say "Neo-facist rally." My mistake, I meant: "Facist rally."

[ 31 May 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Big D
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posted 31 May 2005 10:53 PM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's awesome. Do they have a rally like that in Vancouver? If so, I'm in.
From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 May 2005 11:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And you could have a walk for Poland, and a walk for Germany and a walk for all kinds of countries, but for some reason no one does. Makes you wonder what the political purpose of having a bunch of Zionists organize a walk for Israel every year.

Perhaps the point is that you can rally support behind supression of Palestinian rights? Naw! That's way to far out there.


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Big D
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posted 01 June 2005 12:06 AM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Because, Jewish people have traditionally been oppressed and Israel's very existence is threatened. So that's probably why there's a walk. As opposed to your conspiracy theory. There's no conspiracy, international or otherwise.
From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 June 2005 12:17 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And Arabs aren't traditionally opressed? Certainly I would go to a rally that was against racism or to commemorate the holocaust. But the reality is that many Jewish people, as can be seen by the relatively low turnout, to not see Israel and the rights of Jews as being linked at the hip, like the organizers of this rally do.

The reason that this walk is organized is to make you think that Jews and Israel are one in the same. They are not. That is a propganda fiction propogated by Zionists who wish you to believe that their solution to antisemetism (creation of a Jewish state on Arab land) is the only solution, and the one universally accepted by Jews world wide -- this is not the case.

Many Jews world-wide, including my family, oppose the prinicpal that the Holocaust should serve as a cause to justify the opression of Palestinians, or the theft of their land by use of force.

[ 01 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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DrConway
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posted 01 June 2005 12:23 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought this was a fundraiser, and was going to smart off with a remark about the way Israel probably needs the money given the way the government there usually spends money like it's water.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big D
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posted 01 June 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Jewish state is the solution to anti-Semitism. In the wake of the refusal by western nations (Canada being one of the worst) to take in Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, it is only logical for Jews to not want to have to rely on other nations for help in troubled times. It's only obvius, then, that there was a need for an Israeli state.

What I don't get is people who criticize the 'Zionists' for their desire for a state, yet back the Palestinians in their aspiration for statehood.

As an interesting aside, the majority ethnic group in Syria is Palestinian. I support the Palestinians getting a second state, though.


From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 June 2005 12:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big D:
A Jewish state is the solution to anti-Semitism. In the wake of the refusal by western nations (Canada being one of the worst) to take in Jewish refugees fleeing Hitler, it is only logical for Jews to not want to have to rely on other nations for help in troubled times. It's only obvius, then, that there was a need for an Israeli state.

A state is theoretically fine. However, justifying ethnic cleansing because of a previous ethnic cleansing is morally corrupt because it is inconsistent.

You are right about the issue of western states being complicit in the Holocaust by denying Jewish immigration, but what right does Britain have to give Arab land to expatriate Jews? None whatsoever.

In reality, giving part of Palestine to Jews for immigration is just another version of a European power trying to solve their "Jewish Problem." Remember the Zinoist immigration to Israel did not begin post WW2, or even after WW1 after the British occupied the mid-east, but in the 1890's.

Briths politicians were openly bandying about the idea of creating a Jewish state in Palestine, as part of a "civilizing beach head" as early as the 1860's. As well they were thinking we can get rid of the Jews, and the Jewish problem. Even the orginal idea is at least partly based on Christian anti-jewish racism, which manifested itself so horribly in the 1930's in Germany.

In a sense, Israel is tacit acceptance of Hitlers Judenrein program for Europe.

[ 01 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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lagatta
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posted 01 June 2005 05:51 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A while back I started a thread about the book by Yosef Grodzinsky, "In the Shadow of the Holocaust" that raises those precise issues.
Here is the thread: In the Shadow of the Holocaust - Grodzinsky

I have attended commemorations of Kristallnacht, of the Vel d'Hiv roundup in Paris and of the February Strike in Amsterdam (the strike was in Amsterdam and Rotterdam) by dockers and transport workers against the roundups of Dutch Jews by the Gestapo. (Needless to say, the Gestapo crushed the strike in blood). Those are important events in Europe, not just for the Jewish communities but for the left.

Now it is the 1st of June, so I'll be busily not celebrating la Festa della Repubblica at the Italian consulate under the shadow of Berlusconi and his fascist friends, but I'll find some other way of celebrating the proclamation of the Republic and stomping on the vile memory of the collaborator royal family that signed Mussolini's infamous "Racial Laws".


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Macabee
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posted 01 June 2005 08:41 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I dont know about any change in numbers but I can tell you it was packed. Its sad that Cueball sees Zionist conspiracies everywhere she /he looks but the truth is that for this walk all sides of the Political spectrum came out. Why?, because this walk is seen as support for the people of Israel. Jewish Canadians are per capita the most supporive of Israel and the fringe voices of people like Cueball are just that, the exception that proves the rule.
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WingNut
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posted 01 June 2005 02:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A Jewish state is the solution to anti-Semitism

No it isn't. An end to tribalism and ethnic nationalism is the solution to anti-semitism.

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Big D
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posted 01 June 2005 03:11 PM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So much of our effort with the Middle East must be education, to combat anti-Semitism and put an end to tribalism and ethnic nationalism.
From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 01 June 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think the prior effort should be on getting the log out of our own eyes. The first problem in the Middle East is, as it has been for over a century, the interfering paternalism (and worse) of Europe and, latterly, North America.
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Cueball
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posted 01 June 2005 06:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big D:
So much of our effort with the Middle East must be education, to combat anti-Semitism and put an end to tribalism and ethnic nationalism.

I agree with SKDadl, I don't think we should have an 'effort' in the Middle east, educational or otherwise, at least not one where we intend to teach "culture."


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Vansterdam Kid
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posted 01 June 2005 07:22 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
True enough, but if each culture is still preaching how evil the West is even once the West stops giving them legitimate things to critique, what then?
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johnpauljones
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posted 01 June 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's be clear about one thing when discussing the walk. The Walk for Israel is the major fundraiser for the United Jewish Federation of Toronto and most money stays right here in Toronto helping the Toronto Jewish Community.

Money raised goes to assist the operational budget of social service organizations. These organizations include the Jewish Family and Children's Services, Jewish Immigrant Aid service, The Toronto Holocaust Centre, JACS which is a Jewish Alcoholism support service,Kashrut Council of Toronto an organization that verifies if food and restaurents are kosher and allows the COR to be used on packaging, the parent to parent support group that provides assistance to parents raising children with special needs, and many others.


So critisize the name of the walk if you must. But remember all of those that are helped by funds raised.

I have to wonder that if the walk was not around to fund these organizations who would?

edited to add: after years of cut backs under Harris and his regime one of the only social service areas that kept their level of service and in some cases increased their service level where these very organizations whose operating budgets depend upon the walk.

[ 01 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


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Cueball
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posted 01 June 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's one way to look at it. However Money raised may end up in some of those place but it is all distributed by the UJA, so you are playing an accounting shell game. Why lie?

quote:
This year the Walk with Israel raised approximately $350,000 which will go toward the annual UJA Federation campaign which last year raised $55,000,000.

UJA

The UJA explicitly states in its mission statement that it is:

quote:
UJA Federation's mission is to preserve and strengthen the quality of Jewish life in Greater Toronto, Canada, Israel and around the world through philanthropic, volunteer and professional leadership. To learn more, visit

Almost all Israeli and Jewish advocay groups are cross-funded, and I don't really have the time to dot all the I's but your attempt to make the "Walk for Israel," sound like a "Walk for Toronto Jews," is so transparent it wouldn't make it through Justice Gomery's secretaries preliminary notes, without getting a red line underneath it.


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Big D
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posted 01 June 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

I agree with SKDadl, I don't think we should have an 'effort' in the Middle east, educational or otherwise, at least not one where we intend to teach "culture."


Sounds good to me. We should then stop sending the money of Canadian taxpayers for 'aid' to Palestine (which in fact never seems to make it to the average Palestinian. Suha Arafat lives pretty well though)


From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
A longsuffering conservative
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posted 02 June 2005 12:39 AM      Profile for A longsuffering conservative     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hope I'm wrong but this struggle for survival by all parties in the Middle East doesn't seem to be nearing a light at the end of the tunnel.

I try to be really even handed on the Middle East.


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Cueball
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posted 02 June 2005 12:51 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Big D:

Sounds good to me. We should then stop sending the money of Canadian taxpayers for 'aid' to Palestine (which in fact never seems to make it to the average Palestinian. Suha Arafat lives pretty well though)


I am absolutely convinced that if you were to announce that all US aid to both Israel and to the PA were to be cut off tomorrow that there would be mourning in Tel Aviv, and jubilant celebrations in Ramallah.

The disparity between the aid sent to Israel as compared to that sent to the PA enormous. In other words, I have no problem with that in the slightest.

Good things that would result. The IDF would run out of money, there would be no wall.


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Big D
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posted 02 June 2005 02:38 AM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would the absence of the wall be a good thing? There would be a lot more suicide bombing, for starters...
From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 June 2005 05:29 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all there was no wall and no suicide bombings between 1967 and 1993.

Secondly, there have been no suicide bombings over the last three months, and the wall has not been completed.

In General:

Palestinian violence is motivated by politcal considerations, not the objects that the IDF tries to put in their way.

In fact Palestinian violence is directly related and proportional to Israeli violenence. This may suprise you but the number of Israeli killed by Palestinians in 1999 was exactly 9.

Since that time, 2000-2005 and the re-introduction of the IDF as the security provider for the West Bank and Gaza Strip the number of Israeli killed by Palestinians has topped 300 a year.

Prior to that time between, 1967 and 1999 the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians roughly worked out to 35 per year on average -- a number which is roughly half the murder rate of the city of Toronto, when calculated against the Israeli population.

As well, if you look more closely at the statistics you can see that violence is associated with ongoing political processess. It increased immediatly after Jordan stopped negotiating for the return of the West Bank, and there was no peace process in the works and then decreased during the Oslo period, when Palestinians were engaged in negotiating with Israel directly. Prior to that Palestinian violence also was at a low during the time that Egypt and Israeli were negotiating in the 70's, and there was the expectation that all of the problems might be resolved.

Interestingly, over the last four years Israeli kill Palestinians at a rate of 3 to 1, but during the Oslo peace process years the ratio actually is at 10 Palestinians killed to every 1 Israeli.

Clearly, engaging in a peace processess which offer a tangible potential for a satisfactory outcome for Palestinians is more effective than the use of force and other security measures such as the wall. Sharon's get tough measure have only exacibated tensions and brought more suffering and misery upon both Palestinians and Israelis.

It truly shocks me that Areil Sharon still manages to cling to any credibility at all given that the number of Israelis killed by Palestinian militants since he got into office in 2000 exceeds the entire number of Israelis killed by Palestinians since the 1967 war, and up until 2000.

[ 02 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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aRoused
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posted 02 June 2005 07:10 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think I've ever properly thanked you for working out all those figures, Cueball.
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Macabee
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posted 02 June 2005 07:55 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow $55 million dollars. Speaks well of the philanthropy of the Toronto Jewish community. That a portion goes to Israel for their social service needs (as I understand no money collected by UJA is spent past the green line or for military purposes)Im sure is not a problem to any progressive thinker.
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Cueball
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posted 02 June 2005 07:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There there Mac, lets not forget that every penny that Israel doesn't have to spend on social services is another brick in the wall, paid for by you and me.
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johnpauljones
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posted 02 June 2005 08:48 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball you and i could both spin the benefits and detriments of the walk.

My point was very simple and related to Toronto and the Toronto Jewish Social Service programs and agencies.

The money raised also goes to support much needed community social service programs. In an era where the feds and the province have gutted our social safety net. I am not prepared to condemn those who raise money that goes to support much needed social services.

Now if you are against these Toronto social welfare organizations that receive funding so that they can help those less fortunate in the Jewish Community that is your problem.

Condemn the walk all you want. Condemn the fundraising of the UJA all you want. Condemn Israel all you want.

But until you recognize the disasterous hole in the social safety net that would occur in Toronto if fundraisers that UJA does like the walk which i still believe is the largest individual fundraiser held by the UJA where cancelled.

If not for the UJA who would fund these Jewish social welfare agencies that were originally started because "others" would not help the Jewish Community.


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Cueball
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posted 02 June 2005 09:16 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, you are not going to guilt me into accepting the "Walk for Israel," as an humanitarian fundraisng appeal by attaching a couple of local humanitarian causes into it via omnibus.

Shit! Hamas runs soup kitchens. That doesn't mean I'm going to give them any money.

How about raising money to replace the 4000 odd homes the IDF has destroyed in the last 4 years? And remember these are not comfy 4 person suburban Toronto homes, but crowded middle Eastern Arab homes often with 10 or 12 occupants.

4000 times 10, equals 40,000.

[ 02 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Macabee
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posted 02 June 2005 10:39 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So let me understand, the UJA collects money through the walk and other endeavours that funds the homeless, Jewish Family and Child service anti-abuse programs, tsunami relief, elder care, child poverty...and you wont be guilted into what exactly?
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Cueball
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posted 03 June 2005 01:03 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So let me understand, Hamas collects money that funds the homeless, Palestinian soup kitchens, child poverty...and you want me to support it on that basis alone?

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 03 June 2005 10:44 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Possibly the largest Jewish cultural event in Canada and one of the largest in the world, I just returned from the Walk for Israel held in downtown Toronto.

People from all faith backrounds, ethnicities and cultures particpated, close to 20,000 strong. Children, adults lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate. It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.


Now Magazine report

quote:

At the request of the organizers, the United Jewish Appeal (UJA), two official military reps from the Israeli armed forces attend, having spent the week hosting a series of teach-ins for children at local day schools and canvassing the community, event co-chair Sara Zagdanski tells NOW.


quote:

Directly adjacent to the centre stage at Coronation Park, children play in an elaborate inflated playpen. A giant caricature of a rocket with three thick, square-foot letters U.S.A. printed vertically on its side protrudes from the playpen's main structure. During their games, children try not to lose the glossy "passports" that hang around their necks. These necklaces are stamped at each of the four "checkpoints" along the march route to Ontario Place.

Asked about the apparent reference to the checkpoints regulating people's movements in Israel/Palestine, UJA spokesperson Taali Lester Tollman denies any connection. The rationale behind these checkpoints, she explains, is simply to provide children with "free ice cream, free water and other refreshments."

The walk is in its entirety "a purely apolitical event [organized] to bring out the Jewish and non-Jewish community to raise money" for Israel and the UJA's local activities, she says. According to the UJA, the day accomplishes precisely that, to the tune of an estimated $350,000.

But to some members of the Jewish community the event is also an attempt to normalize Israeli militarism and the exclusion of Palestinians while glossing over Israeli human rights abuses. The Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation (JWCEO) maintains a silent vigil near the walk's third checkpoint, holding banners that read "End the Occupation" and "End Israeli Apartheid."

JWCEO member Esther Vise says picketers have been taunted as traitors, and a half-dozen different male marchers have mimed shooting the picketers as they pass by, using their index fingers.



From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 03 June 2005 10:48 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.


NOW Magazine:

quote:
The Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation (JWCEO) maintains a silent vigil near the walk's third checkpoint, holding banners that read "End the Occupation" and "End Israeli Apartheid."

Macabee, your post misleadingly suggested that the Jewish Women Against the Occupation were supporting the walk when, in fact, they were protesting it. It doesn't do much for your credibility to parse the truth as you did in your opening post.


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No Yards
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posted 03 June 2005 11:04 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's why I no longer bother getting involved (I know, I just broke that rule, so sue me) with a mish-mac-ed thread ... he has proven so many times that he is incapable of carrying on an honest discussion.

If it bothers to respond to this lie at all, it will be something along the lines of never having claimed they were there to support the march, or other some addition to its pile of deceit.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's low, Mac. Really.
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WingNut
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posted 03 June 2005 12:39 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Incredible. This is, of course a large part of the problem. A willingness not only to smear critics with vile labels but also to distort and misrepresent the truth.
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johnpauljones
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posted 03 June 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I am suprised that it took Now to write this story for anyone to mention it here in more detail.

Anyone who has previously gone to the walk or seen the walk or watched coverage of the walk will know that every year the Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation was protesting Israeli policies specifically that Israel is an Apartheid State and to end the occupation set up a counter protest near one of the checkpoints.

The media coverage on TV that I saw this year as with past years showed them protesting and their banners.

Too say that all members of Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation are against the social policy work that the UJA Federation does in Toronto is simply false.

I know of some members and knew one very well (she was my late great aunt who died in March) who used to go to the walk to protest Israeli policy but still donated money to the UJA and had it directed to go only to Jewish Family and Childrens Services.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Too say that all members of Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation are against the social policy work that the UJA Federation does in Toronto is simply false.
Great. No on said that.

What we said was that this, by Mac in the OP:


quote:
It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.

Is deliberately misleading given this:


quote:
The Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation (JWCEO) maintains a silent vigil near the walk's third checkpoint, holding banners that read "End the Occupation" and "End Israeli Apartheid."

And your confirmation:

quote:
Anyone who has previously gone to the walk or seen the walk or watched coverage of the walk will know that every year the Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation was protesting Israeli policies specifically that Israel is an Apartheid State and to end the occupation set up a counter protest near one of the checkpoints.

So, really, what are you objecting to?

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 03 June 2005 04:20 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just heard that Pin Ball Clemmons head coach of the Toronto Argos also was at the walk to show his support for Israel.

I wonder if a boycott of the Argos will start now?


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WingNut
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posted 03 June 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Has for me. Unless he also joins a Walk for Palestine organized by Hamas in the interests of all the charity work they perform. Do you think he will?
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Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 04:24 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's cute. Would you mind answering the question?
From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 03 June 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
what question? what objection? I was simply 1 confirming the attendence of the group for many years at the event. and 2 continuing a discussion from above about whether or not one could object to the walk for israel but still support the social welfare programs that monies raised go to.

EWdited to add: Wingy one way to find out is to have Hamas Canada organize a walk for Palestine in Toronto and invite him and see if he comes out. I am not involved with the walk for Palestine so am not sure if their is one or if Pinball has been invited or not

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 06:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
So let me understand, Hamas collects money that funds the homeless, Palestinian soup kitchens, child poverty...and you want me to support it on that basis alone?

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


Am I reading this correctly? You are comparing a murderous terrorist group to the UJA? You are a sick puppy

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 06:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Macabee, your post misleadingly suggested that the Jewish Women Against the Occupation were supporting the walk when, in fact, they were protesting it. It doesn't do much for your credibility to parse the truth as you did in your opening post.



I saw them and they were there. I never said they supported it or protested it. I just wrote that they were there.

You guys are really too much. JPJ was quite right this Walk has been going on for years and the women against the occupation show up each year. That I have to be explicit in each post is plain nuts but not unexpected I guess.

BTW, that there are those here who will be critical of the money raised by UJA because it goes to Israel to assist the poor is pretty shameful really. UJA funding is not discriminatory it goes directly to institutions that assist the needy, Jews, Christians and Muslims. You bite off your nose to spite your face.

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


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Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 06:49 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's a horrible dodge. Horrible.

You sound like Turner looked, when Mulroney nailed him with that "You had a choice" line.

Beaten.


From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 06:54 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What are you talking about? Did I lie? Did I obfuscate? I just said they were there. You guys really need a rest
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Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You have the audacity to crticize me but when Cueball infers that Hamas and the UJA are similar not a peep. Hypocrates!!
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Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You did not lie, but you certainly did obfuscate and you know it. That you would deny it is absolutely shameful.

Like most cases like this, Macabee, the worst damage is done when you deny the self-evident truth.

You ain't foolin' none, as my grandfather would have said.


From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 06:58 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And now I think you should take a breather.
From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 06:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Coyote will you also as vigorously condemn Cueball for his comparision of the UJA and the terrorist Hamas? Ya right!!!
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kingblake
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posted 03 June 2005 07:36 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I saw them and they were there. I never said they supported it or protested it. I just wrote that they were there.
That is fucking great.

I once went to an anti-police brutality march. It was a really great protest with tons of people. Even the police were there.


From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 03 June 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Macabee, you may not believe this, but I want you to stop this for your own good. You obviously do not understand just how much you are damaging your own credibility.
From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's good of you Coyote but I am quite confident tht those who wish to see me as they do will do so no matter what I write.

I am as worried btw about the credibility of you and the others here who remain quiet over Cueball's comparision of Hamas to the UJA.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 June 2005 09:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do not support organizations which directly or indirectly contribute to terrorist activities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Among other things the UJA does is encourage people to by Israeli bonds. Bonds that no doubt help fund the terrorist activities of the IDF.

quote:
The soldier said that, after hitting and wounding two of the Palestinians as they tried to run away, the soldiers continued to fire, as one ran into a corrugated metal shed and another into a cemetery. After they sprayed the shed with bullets, a gas cylinder in it caught fire. "We had a killed policeman, another one in this burning inferno, and a third one, escaping. We ran after him into a graveyard ... stood on the surrounding wall and shot at him. We killed him too."

The soldier said that no fire had been returned by the Palestinians and added: "Later we understood, that not one of them ... was armed." He added that he had inspected the "completely smashed" body of the man in the graveyard after shooting at it to "confirm the kill" and that it was of "a guy in his mid-50s or 60s, very old."


Referenced through this thread: More Israeli death squad activity uncovered.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 03 June 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As an interesting aside, the majority ethnic group in Syria is Palestinian. I support the Palestinians getting a second state, though.


I think you mean Jordan.


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miles
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posted 03 June 2005 09:38 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball I could be wrong but I thought that UJA is an entirely seperate entity from Israel Bonds.

If I recall correctly they are seperate organizations with seperate charitable numbers whose money goes to seperate things.

People may make 2 donations to 2 seperate organizations 1 to UJA and 1 to Israel Bonds.

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 June 2005 09:55 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Miles you are quite correct they are two seperate organizations. But for Cueball I guess all Jewish organizations are the same.
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Cueball
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posted 03 June 2005 10:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
Cueball I could be wrong but I thought that UJA is an entirely seperate entity from Israel Bonds.

If I recall correctly they are seperate organizations with seperate charitable numbers whose money goes to seperate things.

People may make 2 donations to 2 seperate organizations 1 to UJA and 1 to Israel Bonds.

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


I am not saying they are the same.

They are advertising Israeli bonds. Web sites get to choose what they advertise, this web site does. I don't think that UJA will be running ads for the indict sharon fundraising campaign. Do you?

Nonetheless the UJA also directly funds projects in Israel and no one doubts this. The Israeli Bonds issue is just an aside, even if Mac would like to misconstrue, as he is want to do, in order to intentionally smear people he disagrees with.

Just check out the number of misrepresentations he has made in this thread. He makes Nixon sound like a straight talker.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Big D
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posted 03 June 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Macabee, you may not believe this, but I want you to stop this for your own good. You obviously do not understand just how much you are damaging your own credibility.

Hello, Mr. Pot, meet Mr Kettle.


From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 03 June 2005 10:42 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I am not saying they are the same.

They are advertising Israeli bonds. Web sites get to choose what they advertise, this web site does.


I do not think that UJA does advertise Israel bonds at all. When i drive down Bathurst I usually see 3 signs 1 for UJA, 1 for JNF and 1 for Bonds.

I may be splitting hairs but am just trying to find out.

As far as UJA and the work that they do etc I thought that was a discussion in this thread mainly between JPJ and you and not Mac and you.

As far as Nixon ... he was write about one thing. He guessed who deep throat was and was right


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 June 2005 10:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excuse me D. who is it that miscontrued the presence of the Jewish Women Against Occupation, as being part of the walk, Coyote or Macabee:

quote:
People from all faith backrounds, ethnicities and cultures particpated, close to 20,000 strong. Children, adults lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate. It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.

We have since found out that "'Women against the Occupation' were there," to protest the event, not support it as it appears in Macabee's original text.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 03 June 2005 10:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by miles:

I do not think that UJA does advertise Israel bonds at all. When i drive down Bathurst I usually see 3 signs 1 for UJA, 1 for JNF and 1 for Bonds.

I may be splitting hairs but am just trying to find out.


No you aren't it is good to be accurate.

According to the UJA Where your money goes web page the UJA donates $29,830,360 to "Israel and overseas," $11,116,982 to "Jewish Education," and $17,104,913 to "Community."

In other words as much 50% of any money donated to the UJA goes to Israel. And some of that is Government of Onatario money apparently (though it might be restricted funding.)

UJA Federation & Israel Bonds web page

[ 03 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 04 June 2005 01:16 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Government of Ontario money? Please explain. And where does the money go in Israel? To help the underpriviledged. I know that is a terrible terrible thing to do.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Big D
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posted 04 June 2005 01:40 AM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glad to see that money going to something worthwhile.

Money to Israel means money going to support freedom and democracy. Israel is the only country in the region that is a democracy, you know. And, it's the only country that respects minority rights, womens' rights, rights of gays and lesbians, and workers rights and trade unions.

Besides, that money is raised through fundraising, as opposed to the milllions of taxpayers' dollars that get sent to the Palestinian authority without our consent to line the pockets of the likes of Arafat and his wife.


From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Big D
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posted 04 June 2005 01:41 AM      Profile for Big D        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There doesn't seem to be any walk with Israel locally in Vancouver, however. Maybe there should be a Harley Davidson "Ride for Israel'. F**k Ya!
From: Half man, Half Horse! | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 June 2005 04:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Government of Ontario money? Please explain. And where does the money go in Israel? To help the underpriviledged. I know that is a terrible terrible thing to do.

The Ontario Government sponsorship logo is right on the left hand side of the page. I noted also that "it might be restricted funding." What do you think I meant by that.

And as for helping the "underprivilaged," (if that is what UJA money disignated for Israel is for) every penny that Israel does not spend on social services goes to doing things like buying D9 bulldozers so they can make Palestinians further underprivilaged.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 June 2005 08:01 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball, I don't believe that is true. It is my understanding that money collected by the United Jewish Appeal is used strictly for social welfare in Canada and Israel. I will call the UJA office to verify this on Monday but unless their policy has recently changed this has always been my understanding.

As for mac, well he certainly could have been more clear in his mentioning of the Woman against the occupation. However the rucus made here about it is way over the top. First of all anyone who knows anything about the Women's group will know that they do not support Israeli policy. Secondly, as mentioned here in virtually all reporting I saw on this event the Women against the occupation were described as protestors. It appears to me that your dislike of mac is colouring your judgement.


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DrConway
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posted 05 June 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, ohara, it seems to me your buddy Macabee can't read very well can he? It was very quickly ascertained that "Jewish Women Against the Occupation" was protesting the parade.

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 June 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Mr. Conway I realize that. It was for that very reason that I said he could have been more clear
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 June 2005 02:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only way he could be more clear than anything is if he quit automatically trying to run mud over everything he says, 'cuz clear as mud is just... so clear.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 June 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Cueball, I don't believe that is true. It is my understanding that money collected by the United Jewish Appeal is used strictly for social welfare in Canada and Israel. I will call the UJA office to verify this on Monday but unless their policy has recently changed this has always been my understanding.

My point is that, either way, money designated for social assistance projects, voids the need for Israel to pair down its military budget in order to cover those costs itself. It is a matter of resource allocation. Also, one should ask how much of the money goes toward social assistance for Israeli settlers, which in itself would be support for the occupation.

But your initiative is inspiring, so I would be most interested in what the UJA has to say about the 30,000,000 it sends to Israel. From there web site, the end use of donations is identified only as Israel, nothing more.

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 June 2005 10:50 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The current exchange rate for the Canadian dollar to the Israeli shekel is, FYI, $1 Cdn = 3.54 NIS.

The overall Israeli government budget runs around 200 billion NIS a year, so 120 million NIS is not exactly a huge amount but neither is it insubstantial. I suspect that if the Israeli standard of living is anything like Canada's, then if you earn, say, 60,000 NIS a year that would be about like earning $20k a year here, so if social assistance is half that, at 30k NIS, then 120 million directly covers the living expenses of 4,000 people in Israel, assuming they're single employable adults.

There's only 7 million or so people in Israel anyhow, so if there's 350,000 unemployed (maybe, maybe not) then any pressure on the social services budget which can be alleviated means that the government can turn that money to other uses.

Money is fungible.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 05 June 2005 10:52 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
That's good of you Coyote but I am quite confident tht those who wish to see me as they do will do so no matter what I write.

I am as worried btw about the credibility of you and the others here who remain quiet over Cueball's comparision of Hamas to the UJA.



The militaristic aspects of the Walk are quite disturbing. Were there really mock missiles?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 05 June 2005 10:56 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
JWCEO member Esther Vise says picketers have been taunted as traitors, and a half-dozen different male marchers have mimed shooting the picketers as they pass by, using their index fingers.

Macabee, doesn't that disturb you?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 05 June 2005 11:03 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was no "rucus", really, until Mac tried to obfuscate and slide his way out of what he had said.
From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 05 June 2005 11:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No. It was just indicative to of Mac's inability to post on this issue without adding spin. Thist time the weeble fell over.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 11:17 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well from what I read Mac indeed was unclear. Not the first nor the last to be unclear on Babble. The overeaction was like a tidal wave. It was way over the top for what is a pretty regular occurence here on Babble.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 11:51 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Really? Well, when someone goes tossing the slur of anti-semitism about with the frequency of Macabee, one would like to think he would be careful about what he says. But clearly he is quite willing to twist facts to suit his own "stories."
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
venus_man
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posted 06 June 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Walk or not walk things will hardly change for good. As long as there are radicals and fanatics (on both sides) with their selfish ambitions, dogmas and (sometimes) military power there will be no lasting peace and understanding. As usual a few are poisoning life for many. Only common will, awareness and realization of those many has a chance of changing the situation it seems.
From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 01:44 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Really? Well, when someone goes tossing the slur of anti-semitism about with the frequency of Macabee, one would like to think he would be careful about what he says. But clearly he is quite willing to twist facts to suit his own "stories."
It seems to me tha macabee is a proud Jew who may at times be excessive in his comments. True you take him on and he gives as much as he takes.
And as I have said he could have been more clear in his description of the women against the occupation. However when I read his comments I didnt for a moment think that these women were their in support of the walk. I assumed they were protesting as they have done on all previous walks for israel. I simply dont understand why he was attacked so vigirously for just being unclear.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 02:12 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He was being entirely disingenuous and so are you. He wrote:

quote:
People from all faith backrounds, ethnicities and cultures particpated, close to 20,000 strong. Children, adults lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate. It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there.

Now, maybe he only did say they were there, but he said in the context of "Children, adults lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate."

In my view, that is a deliberate attempt to misrepresent and be dishonest.

No kidding he now says "but I only said ..." He says that now because he was caught.

Tell me something, would you be so forgiving if white supremacists held a rally and then said "Children, adults, lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate the white race. Even members of the Canadian Jewish Congress were there."?

And what do you mean by "proud Jew"? Is that like "proud white"?

I was born white, Irish and Catholic. I should be proud of those personal and hard won achievements in what order?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 06 June 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Tell me something, would you be so forgiving if white supremacists held a rally and then said "Children, adults, lefties, liberals and righties all came together to help celebrate the white race. Even members of the Canadian Jewish Congress were there."?

I would not assume that the CJC in the example you provided was their in support the same way I never assumed that the Woman Against the Occupation were their in support.

I think that people forget that attendance at something does not always or uninimously equate with support of something.

I really think that common sense must at times prevail when looking at a statement and trying to understand whether attendance equals support.


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WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 02:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Again, Miles, there is context. The context of the attendance was given in glowing terms of support for the walk.

If was not Macabee's intent to mislead, he could have left the group out altogether or qualified their attendance.


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miles
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posted 06 June 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WingNut then maybe what I should also have written in my post above is that common sense can become clouded by assumptions made about context due to the posting history of the postee.

I still say that common sense should have prevailed. I read and understood same as I read and understood your example.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


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WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Miles, let's try this again. Most of us do not participate in the Walk for Israel. Most of us probably don't even live in Toronto, although I'm sure many do.

So, when Macabee made his post, in the context in which it was made, every subsequent poster made the assumption that I am sure was intended by Macabee. Thus the response when they -- we -- discovered the comment was misleading following aka Mycroft's posting.

In fact, it would never had occured to me that a walk which included such a diverse group and was attended by so many across the political spectrum would also be so militaristic. And now I must also question the rest of it.

Where the leftists walkers or, like the women against the occupation, were they protestors? What of the rightists? Where they there in support of Israel? In support of war? Or to hate Jews?

You see the problem?

There was a deliberate attempt to play up an event and to misprepresent another groups participation. And that makes the entire report suspect.

And Macabee has never had a problem questioning the veracity of a report due to its source. Maybe now we know why.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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miles
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posted 06 June 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WingNut let me say it this way then.

Having attended the walk in the past. having attended similar walks in the past in the USA and Canada having seen the group women against the occupation at walks in the past. It never occured to me that anyone would assume that the woman were not protesting at the walk.

Now as far as lefties, righties etc at the walk. You are right since no Canadian lefties have ever supported Israel that they must also have been protesting. And also since no rightie Canadian has ever supported Israel that they must have been protesting.

Once again. Common Sense. There are Jewish people who support Israel from across the political spectrum. Their are Jewish Canadians who support the Communist Party, the NDP, the Liberals, the Cons etc.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But Macabee didn't say all the participants were Jewish. In fact he explicity said "all faith backgrounds," although in hind sight I know that could be deliberately misleading.

Still I would assume, never having attended such a walk, there would be people participating who are not Jewish and from a variety of political backgrounds.

Miles, you can make excuses for him, but Macabee knew exactly what he was writing and he knew what message people who were not present at the walk would take away from it.

One last time: "It was a joyous event. Even the "Women against the Occupation" were there."

That was his intent: to make it appear even that group participated in a "joyous event". And the whole post was with regard to the success of the walk and who participated.

It was a deliberate attempt to mislead.


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miles
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posted 06 June 2005 03:32 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
WingNut it is not my intention nor was it my intention to speak for, apologize on behalf of Mac.

That being said I was simply inserting my 2 cents into what I read and what I understood from the post and subsequent posts.

My main point is that at times when dealing with anything regarding the Middle East either overseas or domestically it seems that we all at times attack the messenger and the message.

Now I need to correct the record on something I wrote. Yes people of all faiths walk in the walk. And yes people of all faiths are from all political stripes. And yes people from all faiths and all political stripes who walk in the walk do so in support of Israel.

Edited to add:

I guess though that because of he heated exchanges that always occur on babble with regards to Israel, Palestine, the Middle East, Jews, Muslems, Christians etc hidden meanings are looked for whether they exist or not.

It is sad that in my opinion debates focus on the messenger at times rather than the message.

Marshall Mclughan would love that one.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


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WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 04:12 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Miles, all due respect, man, but the attention of this thread was not at all on the messenger until we learned the message was misleading.

I do appreciate, though, you are just adding your own two-cents. I know you speak only for yourself.


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miles
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posted 06 June 2005 04:17 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wingnut I have got an idea let's get a beer. You buy the first and I the second
From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 06 June 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Deal. Then shots.
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ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 04:42 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And so we have both Miles and I understanding Mac's context. I also understand yours Wingnut and can appreciate how you might see that Mac was possibly misleading you. But honestly I have to agree with Miles here but meaning no disrespect to your position. I just honestly feel that given the fact that different posters understood Mac differently, your immediate assumption that he misled on this thread may be a bit misplaced. Either way Im prepared to pay for the shots as long as they are single malts.
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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 05:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:
Walk or not walk things will hardly change for good. As long as there are radicals and fanatics (on both sides) with their selfish ambitions, dogmas and (sometimes) military power there will be no lasting peace and understanding. As usual a few are poisoning life for many. Only common will, awareness and realization of those many has a chance of changing the situation it seems.

That is such a cop out. Which side benefits the most from stalling the peace process?


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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 05:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
And so we have both Miles and I understanding Mac's context. I also understand yours Wingnut and can appreciate how you might see that Mac was possibly misleading you. But honestly I have to agree with Miles here but meaning no disrespect to your position. I just honestly feel that given the fact that different posters understood Mac differently, your immediate assumption that he misled on this thread may be a bit misplaced. Either way Im prepared to pay for the shots as long as they are single malts.

Did you find anything out from the UJA?


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ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 05:55 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes in fact i did. No money is spent beyond the green line and all funding that goes to Israel is for social services. The funding goes directly to the service agency in Israel. Also if u dont want to send the money to Israel you can ask that it be used in Toronto for one of the many charities the uja funds
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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 06:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excelent man (or woman.) Thank you.

Nonetheless, money spent on Social Services in Israel still buffer the IDF buidget, which is spent beyond the Green line.


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ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 06:13 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well Cueball Im sorry you see it that way. Many of the agencies helped cater to all faiths and people. One project actually brings poor Jewish and Israeli Palestinian children together for arts and drama I was told.
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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 06:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, well that is nice. I am sure it will help the Palestinian children adjust to becoming maids and man servants for wealthy Israelis.

As we know you and I do not share the same view of these things, so I can only state that I will not consider Israel worthy of support until such a time as it removes itself from th occupied terrirories.


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ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 06:31 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Seems a bit callous but ok
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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 06:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The occupation is very callous. Gush Shallom reports that 4000 Palestinian homes have been demolished in the last four years, of those, it says, only 2000 were demolished as part of Israeli reprisals for terrorist acts.

These are not suburban Toronto homes with 4 occupants. These are middle eastern home complete with entire extended families, say a minimum of 10 persons in each. You do the math.

How many Palestinian homes has Israel or the UJA built for displaced Palestinians in the last four years?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 June 2005 06:43 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
But the money goes to Israel. Palestinian Canadians send money to the PA.
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Cueball
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posted 06 June 2005 07:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It wasn't the Palestinians nocking down there own homes. It is the obligation of the occupying power to provide for the civilian population of an occupied zone. That is the law. If Israel is not interested providing basic needs to the people who it occupies it should get out.

Israel is not only directly responsible for increasing Palestinian homelessness but also derelict in not providing adequate alternatives.

You see Ohara: Many Israelis are justifiably upset by the Palestinian mode of resistance and attacks of the last few years, but the kind of insidious and illegal slow persecution, and strangulation of a way of life of the Palestinians is not the kind of thing that grabs headlines over here but it is just as remorseless, as any suicide bomber and it encourages wild acts of desperation.

Palestinians consumed by 'culture of the prison'

quote:
He said in an interview with The Daily Star last week that, "the Palestinian people are not talking much any more about a two-state solution and where we go from here. They're talking about the culture of the prison."

He used the prison analogy to refer to Jerusalem, Nablus, Ramallah, Hebron, Gaza and other cities that were being totally isolated by the Israeli separation wall, settler roads, and land confiscations.

"In each prison a culture and a different agenda develop. There's no consensus where all Palestinians stand together around one position."



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 07 June 2005 01:52 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just see things differently. I look at the individual child, the individual family without politics and see the poverty with which they live. If my little bit of charity can alleviate that even a bit either here at home or in Israel that is fine with me.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 June 2005 03:56 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by miles:
It is sad that in my opinion debates focus on the messenger at times rather than the message.

Marshall Mclughan would love that one.


Interesting. "The maccabee is the message."

Someone, Cueball I think, said elsewhere that Mac doesn't have an agenda, Mac is an agenda.

As for those who have expressed wonder as to why Mac's most recent act of dissembling has caused such a ruckus, you should have been around to witness "The Great Maccabee-Udo Sockpuppet Flim-Flam" performance.

Mac has a history on babble - a history of being a duplicitous scoundrel - and hence his word is seldom taken at face value.


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Macabee
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posted 07 June 2005 04:37 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My real history has more to do with being a supporter of Israel than anything else. Hope you have all had a good time.

I stand by my position. I posted no untruth. Read it as you may.

And of course I note how quiet everyone is about Cueball's comaparision of the UJA to Hamas. But hey my allegedly "unclear" or as some others have labeled it "unruthful" comment saying that the women against the occupation were at the walk is far far more serious than libeling an honoured charitable organization.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 07 June 2005 10:14 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Macabee, what about the militaristic overtones of the walk or the abuse directed toward the women against the occupation?
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venus_man
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posted 07 June 2005 12:10 PM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Which side benefits the most from stalling the peace process?


I'd say both.
Once again it's not the side acting as a unit, but a few extremists on either side. Hammas etc. represent Islamic radicals and their stubbornness, 'righteous' superiority complex and selfish down-to-death (for teenage Palestinians and shahid woman) approach, yet on another side are Judeo-christian fanatics as stubborn, power-obsessed and moved by dogma of their illusive superiority. These are the ones promoting hate and intolerance. However majority of the population are seeking peaceful resolution, understanding and friendship.


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Cueball
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posted 07 June 2005 12:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

I'd say both.
Once again it's not the side acting as a unit, but a few extremists on either side. Hammas etc. represent Islamic radicals and their stubbornness, 'righteous' superiority complex and selfish down-to-death (for teenage Palestinians and shahid woman) approach, yet on another side are Judeo-christian fanatics as stubborn, power-obsessed and moved by dogma of their illusive superiority. These are the ones promoting hate and intolerance. However majority of the population are seeking peaceful resolution, understanding and friendship.


But this isn't really the point of my question.

I am talking about the eventual territorial outcome of a negotiated peace between Palestinian ledership and Israeli leadership. I am am not talking about the violence itself, or even who practices it. I am asking which side of negotiators is more likely get an advantageous outcome territorially if the violence persists, and the peace process is stalled?

Surely the answer to that could not be "both."

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 07 June 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Macabee, what about the militaristic overtones of the walk or the abuse directed toward the women against the occupation?

The abuse was inexcuseable. I saw no military overtones.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 June 2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What about the two IDF guys on the podium?

There, there, Macabee. It must be hard having to thrash around looking for things to vilify people with, when you want people not to notice things like: Illegal settlers received millions in grants

quote:
The scale of Israel's illegal land grab in the occupied territories was disclosed yesterday when the government's own investigation found at least 9 million of taxpayers' money was recently used for illegal Jewish outposts.

So, Ohara, are we quite sure all of the UJA money stays on the west side of the Green Line?

[ 08 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 08 June 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excuse meeee, yes there were two IDF soldiers there. So what?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 04:28 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Your so predicatbale. I thought, geeze, your dealing with a pro-propoganda hack, so you better stay clear of the fluffy sidebars and stay on message.

But I just couldn't resist one more chance to expose how decietful you are and point out that your objection to the characterization of the march as having "military ovetones" was completely bogus as there were 2 real live IDF soldiers on stage. Ahh well shown up by a pro-propogandist once again.

I really should have staid on message by only talking about the millions and millions and millions of dollars illegally given by Israel to fund illegal settlements in the West Bank and ask you if you thought any UJA money collected at your neo-fascist march ended up among that those grants?


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Macabee
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posted 09 June 2005 08:12 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The answer to your questtion is according to the UJA NO money ends up anywhere but where it is intended and NONE of that is beyond the green line.

The rest of your blatherings are frankly incomprehensible.

Your continuing attempt to paint me as this dark and evil propagandist is actually pitiful. It belies your hatred for Israel and if you want to speak about predictable you need go no further.

Anyone reading this thread (other than those here that share your warped sentiments about me ) see YOU for who you really are. So keep on keeping on.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 11:54 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You kinda lost it there. Good to see.

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The answer to your questtion is according to the UJA NO money ends up anywhere but where it is intended and NONE of that is beyond the green line.

According to the Telegraph monies intended for housing construction in Israel comonly ends up on the Palestinian side of the Green Line:

quote:
According to her report, which used figures accurate up to June of last year, 9 million was channelled illegally by the housing ministry to Jewish communities setting up illegal settlements during the premiership of the current prime minister, Ariel Sharon, and his Likud party predecessor, Benjamin Netanyahu, in the late 1990s.

It is likely that the actual figure for illegal government funding is much higher because the settlements would have received money from the defence ministry and other agencies, although Mrs Sasson was unable to trace those sums.


Does the UJA fund "humanitarian" housing projects in Israel? If it does do you think any of the money might have slipped through the loophole, after all if the Israeli government has problems controlling where its money ends up, it would seem that the UJA might also.

Does the UJA money go directly to the Israeli goverment or is it adminstrated seperately?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 10 June 2005 02:08 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps I can help out here. According to the very nice gentleman I spoke with at UJA, their money is administered for social service needs through their own office in Jerusalem. The funding sent does not go to "housing projects" through the government but would fund direct services to housing projects for example. Where funding has gone to "housing" that money is directed through the UJA office in Jerusalem to one or two specific projects one in Eilat for poor families the other near Haifa for Ethiopian Jews.

Cueball, I know you are trying desperately to tar the UJA, I would suggest only that your efforts would be far more productive in working with charities like this rather than trying to diminish their good work.


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahh yes, Eliat! Doesn't Israel occupy Eliat in controvention of the 1956 cease-fire agreements.
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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 11 June 2005 04:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Ahh yes, Eliat! Doesn't Israel occupy Eliat in controvention of the 1956 cease-fire agreements.

NO

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 11 June 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Israel doesn't occupy Eliat?
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Macabee
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posted 14 June 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eilat is part of Israel proper
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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