But on the other hand, it can be pretty personal stuff, and while it wouldn't be asking a lot on a totally anonymous kind of frivolous message board, it's probably asking a lot when there's a lot of real contact here.

But I think if people kept it general, it might prove edifying.

quote:

---

To what extent does penetration and positioning affect the amount of sexual pleasure that a woman can experience?

---

It can affect pleasure a great deal. If there is scarring, tilting, or trauma it can be even more important. Then there are the emotional components of lack of/need for control, closeness, and past good/bad experience.

quote:

---

I've gotten the impression that penetration does not in ordinary lead to orgasm and that a clit massage or oral sex is more affective. Is this true?

---

In most cases, yup. Openness to toys is sometimes helpful as well.

quote:

---

Do most women have the same erogenous zones? the impression I that every woman is different, and that no woman can tell you what women in general like. But I was looking on the good for her website, and they carry Nina Heartly's guide to making love to a woman, so I'm wondering whether you CAN actually generalize about a woman's sexual universe.

---

Many of these guides miss the most important part of the equation.

The real questions aren't about techniques they are:
"How can I build enough trust? Enough trust so she'll be comfortable enough to discuss her sexual needs and desires with ME?"

"How do I put across MY sexual needs and desires to HER without coming off like a raving perv or making her feel pressured?"

Mistake #1: Don't wake me up out of a dead sleep because you want to get laid.

Mistake #2: It doesn't get me in the mood when you tell me all the reasons why we should have sex, and they all have to do with how good it will be for YOU.

CMOT, you're obviously concerned about sharing with a partner. According to many women I've listened to, that is not as common in a man as you might think. Combine this with the technical knowledge you already have, it's enough. Be curious. Be sharing. Be patient. And relax. You know all you need to know.

quote:

---

I don't think it would go over very well with male listeners.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I am trying to imagine this situation but with the genders reversed: women casually discussing in mixed company male sexual response, what systematic approach turns them on, are they really different?
I don't think it would go over very well with male listeners.
Is some degree of privilege involved?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I am trying to imagine this situation but with the genders reversed: women casually discussing in mixed company male sexual response, what systematic approach turns them on, are they really different?
I don't think it would go over very well with male listeners.
Is some degree of privilege involved?

---

Maybe nobody ever brings it up in front of you because you're inclined to use as a launching point to go on about "privelege".

Just a hunch.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I am trying to imagine this situation but with the genders reversed: women casually discussing in mixed company male sexual response, what systematic approach turns them on, are they really different?

---

"Where he really, really, really, really, really wants you to touch him, but is afraid to ask."

"What he really, really, really, really, really wants you to do in bed, but is afraid to ask."

"His favorite 7 positions - you'll be surprised!"

"Top five male erogenous zones - you won't believe it!"

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
women casually discussing in mixed company male sexual response,

---

What's to discuss?

I saw a comedian once who was really funny, and he was joking about how all these women's magazines where they tell you all the ways to be irresistable to men in bed are bullshit.

He was like, "Are you there? Are you breathing? Are you willing? Are we at least somewhat attracted to you? That does it for us!"

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I am trying to imagine this situation but with the genders reversed: women casually discussing in mixed company male sexual response, what systematic approach turns them on, are they really different?
I don't think it would go over very well with male listeners.
Is some degree of privilege involved?

---

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Well, my experience has been that males really hate being generalized about without being asked their opinion - which is what I felt the above exchange looked like in reverse, even if a few women got in interesting posts.
And COSMO titles are not anything like women discussing men as an indifferentiated group in front of them.
(Making a big deal of "privilege"? Moi??? Perish the thought... )

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fidel:
Sexual healing!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
...but does anyone really like Barry White, or put on Barry White records as a seduction aid?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oldgoat:
Actually, I've sat in on such conversations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:

What's to discuss?

I saw a comedian once who was really funny, and he was joking about how all these women's magazines where they tell you all the ways to be irresistable to men in bed are bullshit.

He was like, "Are you there? Are you breathing? Are you willing? Are we at least somewhat attracted to you? That does it for us!"

I wish I could remember his name. Obviously he was exaggerating, but it was really funny.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
...We don't ask those kinds of questions about male sexuality, because it's been thoroughly demystified,

---

It has? Where was I and what did I miss?

quote:

---

but since we live in a culture that doesn't really give a shit about a woman's sexual pleasure or her orgasms, many men are in the dark as far as female sexual response is concerned...

---

I'm not sure I agree with this either, although it certainly has been true and may still be in certain pockets of society. I think quite a bit of popular focus on sexuality - both women's and men's - has occurred here in the last 20 - 30 years, with a new emphasis (sometimes to the point of fixation) on sexual exploration and newfound liberties. I think there are many examples in TV, film, pop music, visual art, fiction, non-fiction, you name it, of women exploring women's sexuality.

Indeed, I think what we're still not seeing yet is men truly exploring male sexuality - and before you laugh, I mean the range of male sexuality. We have all the caricatures of het male desire, but those caricatures I think tend to hide other currents, other expressions, both healthy and anti-social, in male sexual desire.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: jas ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boom Boom:

When I hear that deep low husky voice saying
oooohhh bayyyybeeee I dissolve into a fit of giggles.

---

I can sometimes hit the baratone of Barry White, and when I do, it's always the song from his vocal appearance in the Simpson's episode about "Whacking Day."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michelle:
Tell me about it! How many articles CAN Cosmo write on the male g-spot, anyhow?

"Where he really, really, really, really, really wants you to touch him, but is afraid to ask."

"What he really, really, really, really, really wants you to do in bed, but is afraid to ask."

"His favorite 7 positions - you'll be surprised!"

"Top five male erogenous zones - you won't believe it!"

etc.

---

quote:

---

it was some male responses to it that fell somewhat short of my (admittedly excessive) hope and expectations...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
"While gossip among women is universally ridiculed as low and trivial, gossip among men, especially if it is about women, is called theory, or idea, or fact." (Andrea Dworkin)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jas:

I'm not sure I agree with this either, although it certainly has been true and may still be in certain pockets of society. I think quite a bit of popular focus on sexuality - both women's and men's - has occurred here in the last 20 - 30 years, with a new emphasis (sometimes to the point of fixation) on sexual exploration and newfound liberties. I think there are many examples in TV, film, pop music, visual art, fiction, non-fiction, you name it, of women exploring women's sexuality.

Indeed, I think what we're still not seeing yet is men truly exploring male sexuality - and before you laugh, I mean the range of male sexuality. We have all the caricatures of het male desire, but those caricatures I think tend to hide other currents, other expressions, both healthy and anti-social, in male sexual desire.

[ 30 October 2008: Message edited by: jas ]

---

You're right, it hasn't been demystified and it tends to get more foggy when you include things like disability. It really is something both sexes, struggle with. I really should think before running off at the mouth.

[ 31 October 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
[QB]
Perhaps. But isn't that view somewhat idealist, presupposing some essential "male sexual desire", with everything we actually experience being deemed "caricatures", shadows on the cavern wall?
What if there was no touchstone referential reality behind us, but simply a number of performances, many of them caricatural - even among minority communities and women - because of the way gender is structured as dominance?

---

quote:

---

...rather than invite such a discussion about "female response" as if we were discussing carburettor settings on some touchy vintage car motor?

---

As far as I can tell none of the responses were that insensitive. I have angst(Unfotunatly Tommy I have no partner to speak of) and I apologize for posting two questions which partially contradicted each other, but simply owning up to my sexual quirks(I find the idea of intercourse rather scary) Might have made people as uneasy as the post I DID write.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

As far as I can tell almost none of the responses were that insensitive. I have angst(Unfotunatly Tommy I have no partner to speak of) and I apologize for posting two questions which partially contradicted each other, but simply owning up to my sexual quirks(I find the idea of intercourse rather scary) Might have made people as uneasy as the post I DID write.

[ 01 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

---

I didn't find any of it difficult. But then, teaching sex ed to both sexes was part of my job.

My experience has been that women will ask honest and forthright questions more often than men will.

As for Cosmo--well that's a load of horsesh*t from the start as Cosmo articles are a complete set-up designed to illicit desired responses from the interviewee. Several ex-journalists have complained about it publicly.

CMOT: That's an honest concern--that due to all the ramifications of intercourse it can cause anxiety for males. I especially think this is true because sensitive men don't want to feel as if they're hurting, upsetting, or forcing their partner into an unwanted or uncomfortable act particularly when they care for someone.

We don't like to accidentally breach the trust of someone we care deeply about.

Contrary to popular opinion, many men prefer oral sex to intercourse, just as women do. I suggest the reason is likely physical--there's more physical ability to control the activity and the level of pleasure involved for the recipient.

quote:

---

Jas wrote: Caricature meaning "distorted representation" - in this case, usually a too simple picture of the much more varied, bumpy reality. I'm not saying anything about what male sexuality "should" be.

---

quote:

---

"We have all the caricatures of het male desire, but those caricatures I think tend to hide other currents, other expressions, both healthy and anti-social, in male sexual desire."

---

quote:

---

CMOT: That's an honest concern--that due to all the ramifications of intercourse it can cause anxiety for males. I especially think this is true because sensitive men don't want to feel as if they're hurting, upsetting, or forcing their partner into an unwanted or uncomfortable act particularly when they care for someone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

When you make love with your clothes on, without penatration, you are safe. When you penatrate someone, you enter the ogre's cave, and may not come out whole.

---

That's a bit pedantic for a concrete person like me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Well, certainly not from having your heart broken, but from HIV And syphilis most certainly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
While gin has been said to be the seduction lubricant of choice, I find that vodka works better.

---

quote:

---

Well, certainly not from having your heart broken, but from HIV And syphilis most certainly.

---

Honestly, CMOT, I think you are over thinking this whole issue. Yes, STD's are a concern.

But think about this. You're a nice caring person and you are going to find yourself hooked up with a nice, caring person. Your relationship will not be based soley on sex, and it will evolve over a period of time. During which, you will learn how to communicate with her best. If you are worried about HIV, I don't think, if communicated properly, asking her to have a test is inappropriate, and you'd certainly understand there's a quid pro quo on that.

It strikes me now that your concerns seem to be from a point of reference as if you were imagining sex with a stranger. I don't think that's what you are aiming at, but I think you are not taking into account that when you find a partner, you will have an established relationship with her.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TVParkdale:

Painful. Most people prefer astroglide...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Could it be that "male sexual desire" - if a generalization is possible and I fear it is - is itelf caricatural?

---

The words themselves do not generalize anything, neither in this discussion, nor in my mind. One needs a name for something in order to discuss it.
If you want to be more neutral about it you could call it male sexuality, ~sexual expression, ~sexual activity. But if you're talking about desire specifically then you need to use the word.

quote:

---

The (safer) notion of "distortion in representation" suggests an undistorted reality, bumpy as you say, diverse as you claim, but real and somehow preceding acculturation and representation.

---

Why preceding? Co-existing. Just like, for example, who we are (how we express ourselves) SOMETIMES is not who we are (how we express ourselves) ALL the time.

quote:

---

Isn't this an idealist view, keeping at bay the notion that male sexual desire itself could be as we observe it - and I am not making a biologist argument! - fashioned by culture as simplistic, caricatural in its obsession with power and none too concerned with the values we tend to dress it up in?

---

A caricature I had in mind which we see on TV sitcoms, for example, and in other forms of popular humour or comedy is the male as sexual simpleton: the one-track mind, not too picky, Skinnerian get-it-any-way-you-can boob whose sexual needs are comically simple, in comparison with the caricatured females' complicated, picky, hard-to-satisfy, particularlist sexual needs. A caricature of course needs some grain of truth in order to be successful, but it also grossly exaggerates the quality in question. I would suggest that many real life men buy into this current caricature to some degree, partly perhaps because it takes focus away from more complicated sexual realities and questions that arise.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

I dunno. Lubricant is lubricant. I find brand preference, well, a bit anal.

---

Well then you aren't being very creative are you?

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Aren't sexually transmitted diseases standing in for a more personal, psychic risk men associate with close interactions with women, a risk to a certain vision of ther self rather to the immune system? How do we wind down that prejudice?

---

Good points Martin.

Particularly when the risk of STI's tends to move from male to male, or male to female NOT the other way around. This is not an encouragement to forego the use of condoms--it's simple physical risk assessment.

It's in how we *think* of condom use. In today's age, it needs to be seen as an intregal and enjoyable part of the experience.

One of my pet peeves with many STI workshops is the pressure it puts on women to ensure the man wears a condom, since they are at higher risk. Yet there are female condoms and a wide range of sexual activities on both sides, that don't require condoms.

That aside, it's been my experience that men have *more* trouble expressing preferences around intimate touch that is not intercourse or oral sex based.

It's hard for them to express they just want to be stroked, or petted, or comforted before they sleep. It doesn't fit the ideal seen in the media.

There's a generalization I've heard expressed by a number of bisexuals. "If you want good oral sex, choose your own sex. If you want comfort and intimacy, choose a woman."

quote:

---

Originally posted by TVParkdale:

There's a generalization I've heard expressed by a number of bisexuals. "If you want good oral sex, choose your own sex. If you want comfort and intimacy, choose a woman."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jas:

Hmm, a rather bleak outlook for the strictly heterosexual woman

---

Maybe colleges should offer courses, "Intimacy Training for Men--How to Be the Beneficiary and the Perpetrator of Cuddling 101"

or maybe we need T-shirts:

"Kuddles,
Not Just for Kids!

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Aren't sexually transmitted diseases standing in for a more personal, psychic risk men associate with close interactions with women, a risk to a certain vision of ther self rather to the immune system? How do we wind down that prejudice?

---

Or it could be that I just don't want to contract an STD.

Look, I already know I won't be able to perform like an acrobatically inclined stud. That's just not possible, because of physical limitations and sexual inexperience(I do have some idea of things that could be done however...) venerial disease could seriously fuck up my life. I'm already in a wheelchair, I don't need HIV meds on top of that.

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

But think about this. You're a nice caring person and you are going to find yourself hooked up with a nice, caring person. Your relationship will not be based soley on sex, and it will evolve over a period of time. During which, you will learn how to communicate with her best. If you are worried about HIV, I don't think, if communicated properly, asking her to have a test is inappropriate, and you'd certainly understand there's a quid pro quo on that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Or it could be that I just don't want to contract an STD.

Look, I already know I won't be able to perform like an acrobatically inclined stud. That's just not possible, because of physical limitations and sexual inexperience(I do have some idea of things that could be done however...) venerial disease could seriously fuck up my life. I'm already in a wheelchair, I don't need HIV meds on top of that.

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

---

Well, hopefully you will find someone that you can have good communication with then work out what activities will be pleasurable for both of you.

I suspect physical trust on both sides would be even more necessary to create an environment where both parties feel safe.

[ 02 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]

quote:

---

Aren't sexually transmitted diseases standing in for a more personal, psychic risk men associate with close interactions with women, a risk to a certain vision of their self rather to the immune system? How do we wind down that prejudice?
-----------------------------------------------
Or it could be that I just don't want to contract an STD

---

quote:

---

It's hard for them [men] to express they just want to be stroked, or petted, or comforted before they sleep.

---

Maybe because we aren't dogs, therefore this isn't what we want.

quote:

---

Maybe because we aren't dogs, therefore this isn't what we want.

---

quote:

---

If I may speak frankly, CMOT, if it was just that, would you be putting out fear-and-loathing metaphors like "the ogre's cave"...

---

Yes, I do have some issues which I will have to work through before "it" can be allowed to happen. There is someone I can talk to.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

You may not, but others do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Maybe because we aren't dogs, therefore this isn't what we want.

Hey, the thread's drifting backwards!

---

quote:

---

You recognise the irony in what you just wrote, I trust.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I call bullshit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Yes, I do have some issues which I will have to work through before "it" can be allowed to happen. There is someone I can talk to.

However, with all do respect, "the Ogre's cave" is a bi sexual metaphor that can be as easily applied to anal sex as it can to vaginal. Both activities can put you at risk.

---

CMOT:

At the risk of hurting your feelings but in the interests of honesty...

The risks associated with STI's, although they must be taken into account are less for a male, by a long percentage, than for the female partner.

It leads me to wonder what other worries or anxieties might be occurring that are being masked by STI concerns.

I don't expect you disclose publicly, it's just something I want you to consider.

[ 03 November 2008: Message edited by: jas ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TVParkdale:
Most males are not as swaggeringly confident about sex and dating as they'd like the world to believe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Idealism is about having people believe that there must be more than meets the eye. Very convenient for the emperor's new tailor...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Also, to move towards actualization of a possibility requires taking stock of current reality. Otherwise, what's to change?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
I call bullshit.

---

I don't know what you mean here.

quote:

---

I likes me generalizations, generally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Yes I do. I don't think you were speaking ironically when you stated that petting wasn't what "we" (presumably meaning men) wanted.

---

You obviously missed what I meant about the irony in CMOT's post.

quote:

---

You obviously missed what I meant about the irony in CMOT's post.

---

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:

Not necessarily a must. Idealism could involve the belief in possibilities, as opposed to entrenched viewpoints, which are more descriptive of fanatics than idealists.

---

^^^^^THIS

I'm not sure it's just "idealism"--perhaps it is the ability to look at many facets of a situation and decide what actions/solutions might be more effective?

quote:

---

Originally posted by TVParkdale:
I'm not sure it's just "idealism"--perhaps it is the ability to look at many facets of a situation and decide what actions/solutions might be more effective? Is that "idealism" or is it a form of understanding as opposed to simple good vs bad structured thinking?

---

Some think that's an awful view of human kind. But if you really stop to think, it inextricably binds us all to each other beautifully.

Which is a great sentence to segue back to sex from philosophy, if I had half a mind to.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:

It wasn't in reference to the OP, which I took to be merely inquisitive, although I'm not too sure if this board is quite the appropriate place to inquire about such things. If it highlighted anything, it appeared to me at least that a male could very well be capable of genuine interest in female pleasure, as opposed to just being concerned about our own, as is often the case. But even that is theoretical isn't it, because what if any inquiries in that regard are really only to indulge in our own confidence building endeavors. I suppose that's where idealism, possibilities and the benefit of the doubt come into play. Admittedly, it is thin gruel to consider, given all the material we could toss around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
Which is a great sentence to segue back to sex from philosophy, if I had half a mind to.
[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

---

Coincidentally, it's all you'll need for either topic. Some would say that being bound to each other does provide for a beautiful view of human kind, but as you could well imagine, the paraphernalia involved can be a little expensive.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It means the "original post", in this case CMOT Dibbler's question.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:

Coincidentally, it's all you'll need for either topic. Some would say that being bound to each other does provide for a beautiful view of human kind, but as you could well imagine, the paraphernalia involved can be a little expensive.

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: Slumberjack ]

---

Well, if you want the good hemp, it's expensive--last I heard, it has to be imported. But your local hardware store provides a variety of nylon (avoid polypropelene) at reasonable prices. In white only though. For colour, one has to go to the braided nylon, which isn't nearly as sensuous. IMHO.

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
TV Parkdale, while we're at it - and the boys are enjoying their little bondage jokes - what do you mean by ^^^^^THIS ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TVParkdale:
^^^THIS is generally used in forums to denote agreement with the quote or statement above.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:
Well that clarifies things. All along I thought you were saying "fuck this" to my posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by G. Pie:

Me, too! And I was mystified. Well, thanks for the laugh, you guys.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slumberjack:

Well that clarifies things. All along I thought you were saying "fuck this" to my posts. Clearly I need to get out around to other forums.

---

Oh NO, sorry about that! *chuckle*

It's used by some focussed activist groups I belong to, when we're building consensus or agreeing--usually the sort where discussion is minimal and action is paramount.

I forget who speaks what sort of netspeak...

[ 05 November 2008: Message edited by: TVParkdale ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:

Well, if you want the good hemp, it's expensive--last I heard, it has to be imported. But your local hardware store provides a variety of nylon (avoid polypropelene) at reasonable prices. In white only though. For colour, one has to go to the braided nylon, which isn't nearly as sensuous. IMHO.

{TVParkdale, IMHO means "In my horny opinion"}

---

Okeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, last I checked it was *h*onest opinion, but we'll let that go by.

What's with the rope?

quote:

---

Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Don't worry, I think I got it.

---

Yeah, that line was a response to St. Martin's post.

I thought the irony was in you telling me that not all males shared my particularisms, in a thread in which you asked about female particularisms.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
Honestly, CMOT, I think you are over thinking this whole issue. But think about this. You're a nice caring person and you are going to find yourself hooked up with a nice, caring person. Your relationship will not be based soley on sex, and it will evolve over a period of time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by martin dufresne:
It seems to me that a lot of assumptions about CMOT developed in the course of this thread, simply because of his asking about women's sexual response and expressing fear about sexual penetration.
Probably says as much about us than him.

---