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Author Topic: Meanwhile, in New Zealand...
arborman
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posted 20 July 2006 11:33 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So fundies are everywhere.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 July 2006 02:01 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
After so many years of political conservatism, debt buildup and skyrocketing college tuition fees, there was an exodus of brats from New Zealand seeking affordable education in Europe in the 1990's, and to Canada where they were nailed again with more conservatism Liberal-style. That's what a young busker from NZ told us while we were downtown.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
marzo
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posted 21 July 2006 07:25 AM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is a good reason why religious groups must not have political power.
The author of that tract said that to non-believers it would seem to be 'total nonsense',and he at least got that part right. When somebody invokes God, unseen supernatural authority, to support some moral cause that person has abandoned reason or compassion as a basis for anything.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 July 2006 10:43 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, both God and the invisible hand of laissez-faire capitalism have both had good runs. It's time to move on.

[ 21 July 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
GOD
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posted 21 July 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for GOD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What do you mean "had" buster??


ok, just kidding. It was harmless Nerf lightning. I guess I have to admit I'm gettin' a bit past it.


From: I think therefore you are. | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 21 July 2006 11:05 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A classic example of those who wish to be seen as 'rght' rather than those who wish to 'get it right'.

Notice that there is no appeal for leniency or justness in the smacking. The authority doing the smacking is absolute in their moral 'right' to assault another person. Particularily if the person being smacked is a child.

Not is there any definition of what constitutes a 'smack'. A blow to the head? An object with which the smacking can be applied? Closed fist vs open hand or booted foot?

But the major failing of coporal punishment has always been that it relies on one's fear of such retribution. However, when that fear is not present - as in 'when there is little liklihood of detection - then there is no motivation NOT to commit the act.

The most common example of this is all the drivers that exceed posted speed limits. That is, until they see a police car and then they all become law-abiding citizens. At least until the cruiser is out of sight.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
gula
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posted 21 July 2006 01:41 PM      Profile for gula     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just recently a lot of talk on Radio Canada was about teachers in the North not being allowed to teach evolution anymore because of the influence of the fundies amongst the Innu.

Also, on my two trips through Northern Chile (mostly poor to very poor areas) I noticed that every 1 llama town has a fundie church.

Scary stuff. While they do good they totally hijack common sense and with it the way to a true, long-lasting improvement of those peoples situation.


From: Montréal | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 July 2006 02:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 21 July 2006 04:25 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
After so many years of political conservatism, debt buildup and skyrocketing college tuition fees, there was an exodus of brats from New Zealand

Obviously they weren't smacked enough.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 July 2006 07:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Wrong, Do it again!"
"If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. HOW can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"
"You! Yes, you behind the bikesheds, stand still laddy!"

From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
RANGER
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posted 21 July 2006 11:05 PM      Profile for RANGER     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The beatings will continue untl morale improves!
From: sunshine coast | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 22 July 2006 09:22 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Animals hit and bite and scold their kids when they do something stupid. It is a survival thing.
There is probably a stage in human devellopment where the child remembers a slap for attempting to put his or her hand on an electric hotplate better than sitting in the corner for attempting it.
And if you are a mom with 3 kids walking on the path with bikes whizing past, and all three want to run across and chase butterflys or pick blackberrys, what do you do?
calling for a timeout might get your child killed. (and you have only 1 pair of hands).
When I went to school, the corner was the dunces corner. A child sent there was mentally hurt for quite a while. hurt to its self esteem.
It might be the same for a child getting a time out? My sister miranda was picked on by the teacher in that way. I dont think she ever recovered.
And I would certainly have prefered a spanking to what the teacher put her through.
My other sister was so annoyed about it that she promised to go pee on her grave whenever the teacher died.
Anyway, thats my call. it is all relative.
Both probably have their place depending on the circumstances. Which do you prefer?
Mental cruelty or a slap on the bum?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 22 July 2006 09:54 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a grade four teacher who was a spinster bitch from hell. She'd sneak up on my desk from behind during writing/printing drills and pull my hair quite hard for not being very neat about it. I printed large, and she was going to cure me of it. And I've had thoughts of becoming a serial killer ever since.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 22 July 2006 01:15 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Human beings are incredibly vain about the superiority their language abilities gives them over all other species. Yet we are more than willing to revert to our 'beast' side of using pain and force as educational tools.

No wonder there is so little honest, effective communication going on today and so much more war making taking its place.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
RANGER
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posted 23 July 2006 11:22 AM      Profile for RANGER     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I struggle with that connection, we've had wars for centuries everywhere, before "political correctness" and "time outs" I don't believe this is a black and white issue and more about knowing your kids, they will react to things differently. For some, a talking to works, and yes there is a place for being taken out to the woodshed, as long as it's not a constant thing, the world is not perfect but well meaning parents are becoming more and more worried about what would other people think? Do I spank my kids? when I feel it's nessesary, and not that often, they say please and thank you on there own, hold doors open for people things like that, this may seem trivial to many but when I grew up this kind of behavior was expected more so than today, I think the important note here is that extremes must be replaced by common sense. Does it still exist?
From: sunshine coast | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 23 July 2006 01:35 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As a person who went to school when the strap was still in use, i can assure you that the barbaric practice of hitting, smacking or physically disciplining anyone does far more harm than good. If, in fact, any good can be attributed to the behaviour at all.

Nor did these educators limit their abusiveness to the strap because they would hit us with whatever weapon was at hand and had no compunction at all of putting their hands on children in primary school [ages 5-13] in a violent manner.

What i and my peers learned was that, when you had authority over others you were then free to abuse them with relative impunity. There was not one time that i got the strap in which my behaviour was changed for the better. Resentment and desensitization to the abuse/mistreatment of others were far more common consequences for many of my peers.

In each and every instance all i ever experienced was an extreme sense of being violated which only fueled my defiance of authority figures. A learned behaviour that lead to lots of confrontations with authority figures in the workplace for years afterwards. But since my skills were so much in demand, a new job was as easy to find as a lobbiest on parliament hill.

I also witnessed and heard about how some of my more belligerent peers vadalized the cars and homes of the most violent teachers and 3 of them even waylaid one of them in the dark one night.

Ultimately, any group that condones any form of corporal punishment meted out against children had better be prepared to deal with the abuse and violence that such a sanction will bring out in both the perpetrators and the victims.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 23 July 2006 03:44 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The amazing thing is that their rules are supposed to bring them into conformity with the Criminal law, which bans the use of "unreasonable force".

The worst of the points was the claim that the "smacking" could go on for ten or fifteen minutes.

I'd call that a slaughter, not a smacking.

I don't believe parents should be criminalized for one or two swats to the bum of an unruly child. It might not be ideal child-rearing, but people are human, and not every deiation should be criminal.

But these guys are WAY over the top. Here in Ontario, a fifteen minute beating would earn you 60 days in jail.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 23 July 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And it is the propensity of some individuals to be excessive in the use of force that Canada has prohibited the use of corporal punishment here.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 23 July 2006 08:53 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
At the farmer's market yesterday I saw the father of a child only a little older than arborboy (18months) smack his kid 3 times, hard, when the kid went to touch something that interested him.

I cannot imagine doing that to my kid for being curious. I can't imagine doing it to any kid at all, and particularly that age, where they don't really get cause and effect yet. All the kid would understand is that daddy is hitting and angry for some reason.

Sin in the soul my ass.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 23 July 2006 11:14 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know. I want to go over there and start smacking the parents when I see that stuff. Here buster, how does it feel for you? Do you like it when I express my disapproval for your actions with physical violence?

Of course, these parents probably know exactly what physical abuse feels like, since it is likely the very trauma they are carrying around from their own abuse that makes them think this behaviour is okay. Vicious cycle and all that.

quote:
There is probably a stage in human devellopment where the child remembers a slap for attempting to put his or her hand on an electric hotplate better than sitting in the corner for attempting it.

Why would you do either of these things? I never resorted to punishment to teach my children anything. In fact, we didn't punish our kids, period. That's no way to teach anyone anything.

When my babies reached for a hot stove, we'd gently stop their hands and say "no honey. Don't touch that. It's hot. Hot." After a few hundred times, they get the idea. Toddlers are not as dumb as everyone thinks they are, it's just that nobody tries to communicate with them. Punishment for curiosity about the top of the stove doesn't teach them not to touch it at all. In the unlikely event that they understand why they are being punished (most of the time, I doubt they do), it will only increase their curiosity. What made them so mad? What's up there, anyway? Taking the trouble to explain the situation to them, patiently and repeatedly, engages their curiosity without creating resentment, which will lead to stubborn disobedience.

quote:
And if you are a mom with 3 kids walking on the path with bikes whizing past, and all three want to run across and chase butterflys or pick blackberrys, what do you do?

If you're in a situation that is so out of your control that you feel you can't keep your kids safe without the threat of physical violence, I would advise you to get out of that situation. Obviously it is not a safe place for your kids to be.

quote:
Which do you prefer?
Mental cruelty or a slap on the bum?

Again, neither of these are necessary. You shouldn't have to punish kids for perfectly normal kid behaviour.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 24 July 2006 01:01 AM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, i stuck my finger into a light fixture when i was a kid and I had the burn marks for a month from the electric rings. A curious kid is lucky to live!
I would have prefered a spank.
If you let your kids put themselves in danger 100 times before they learn, I dont think you are being fair to them, are you? And how young does a kid have language comprehension skills?
My da used to play baa man to keep us scared of the dark. (thats a tradition). And why should kids be scared of the dark? Perhaps because it is deadly dangerous and staying safe and a little scared in bed at night induces longevity?
Perhaps the tradition of spanking induces caution about new situations? And caution saves lives, perhaps? I suggest that best practice depends on common sense and the devellopment stage of the child. It is not a black and white situation.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 24 July 2006 09:47 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I once saw a biggish woman walloping hell out of her? kid in front of the mall. I beeped the horn and vigourously shook my finger at her out the passenger window. Her face turned beet-red. I thought well of myself for a moment and chuckled.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 24 July 2006 12:12 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
When my babies reached for a hot stove, we'd gently stop their hands and say "no honey. Don't touch that. It's hot. Hot." After a few hundred times, they get the idea. Toddlers are not as dumb as everyone thinks they are, it's just that nobody tries to communicate with them.

I meet many people who think that, because their babies learned a certain way, it is inevitable that all babies learn in that same way.

But I don't think they do. I think some kids are much more wilful than others.

If you never had to slap your children, that's good, but it doesn't mean that other parents are in precisely the same situation.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 24 July 2006 12:33 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And there will always be some who subscribe to the brutish behaviour of using force to instill 'learning'. Of course, when all that is really learned is that force is an acceptable option and there are thousands of criminal assaults every year to validate this learning process.
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 24 July 2006 02:46 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, i stuck my finger into a light fixture when i was a kid and I had the burn marks for a month from the electric rings. A curious kid is lucky to live!
I would have prefered a spank.

You think this wouldn't have happened if you'd been spanked? This wouldn't have happened if you'd been watched. We didn't let our kids out of our sight if there was danger around them, like open sockets. Nowadays, you can buy those plastic plugs that cover the sockets. Problem solved -no spanking.

quote:
If you let your kids put themselves in danger 100 times before they learn, I dont think you are being fair to them, are you?

They're not in danger if I'm there to stop them.

quote:
And how young does a kid have language comprehension skills?

They learn those skills from people communicating with them, not from a sharp smack. This is especially important in dangerous situations, as a child who understands danger will carry that knowledge around with them, whereas a kid who is only seeking to avoid punishment will want to finally satisfy their curiosities once your back is turned. Until they learn these skills and have this knowledge, you've just got to keep your eye on them. This may seem a terrible burden, but that's what being a parent is all about. It happens a lot sooner than people think, though. My son is 22 months old. He doesn't say much, but he understands a lot of what we say to him, because we've always tried to reason with him about dangers and everything else. The more you do this, the sooner they learn. He already understands about the stove. "Hot" was one of his first words.

quote:
Perhaps the tradition of spanking induces caution about new situations?

I don't see why, since new situations don't cause spanking. More likely it induces caution and mistrust of their parents, the source of the spanking. Children are very logical that way.

quote:
I meet many people who think that, because their babies learned a certain way, it is inevitable that all babies learn in that same way.

But I don't think they do. I think some kids are much more wilful than others.

If you never had to slap your children, that's good, but it doesn't mean that other parents are in precisely the same situation.


I know all kids aren't the same, though I assure you, my daughter is very stubborn and willful. I have to make her understand why something is wrong, because otherwise she doesn't listen to a word I say.

But just because all kids are different doesn't mean it's okay to hit them. I don't think the differences excuse that kind of behaviour. If your child is more trouble than most, you're just going to have to take more trouble educating them. For my money, a wilder and disobedient child will only respond to hitting with even more anger and resentment than a more "behaved" one. No matter what kind of kid you have, you will find your own behaviour towards them reflected back upon yourself. When you hit them, it's only a mtter of time before they hit you back, or hit someone else if you're too big. After all, it's not wrong or you wouldn't be doing it, right?

These days I am teaching my five-year old daughter the same lessons towards her brother. I tell her that when she grabs things from him, she is teaching him to grab things from her. If she doesn't want him to do that, she has to not do it herself. It's hard for someone so young to take on the responsibility of setting the example, but slowly she's getting it. It shouldn't be so hard for the parents.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 24 July 2006 06:21 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jacob, some day you will realize that there is always danger and you will not always be there to protect your kids. And even if you are there, sometimes you can not stop terrible things from happening.
I was eldest of 8 kids.
I grew up on a farm. There is danger everywhere on a farm. I am thankful that my parents did not stifle my every move though.
They (the professionals) do have the devellopment stages for kids all figured out. There is a time when talking at a kid is a waste of time and a time when talking works. And there are problem kids who hurt other kids to get attention.
Your kid might continue to reach for the hotplate a hundred times just to get the attention.
Will you always be fast enough?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 24 July 2006 09:34 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm going to go out on a limb and presume that you and your seven siblings weren't born so close together that you were all toddlers at the same time. It's that particularly dangerous time between locomotion and understanding that we are talking about, I think. I don't have to watch my five year old like a hawk because she has a very good grasp of the things that are safe or unsafe around her. My 22 month old is a different story.

I know I can't pre-empt every danger or be watching every second of the day, but that's not what we're talking about, is it? The question is, does a smack to the hand, bum, whatever, do a better job of preventing these problems than patient explanation? I say no. Ironically, the smack will only be effective when the child knows he or she is being watched (and hence, likely to be smacked for their behaviour), and if they're being watched then you have the opportunity to intervene, making a smack unnecessary. The explanation, though it requires a lot more effort and a lot more hovering, stays with the child even when you aren't there. It's a safety clause they carry around with them always.

Yes, there are times when explaining won't solve the problem (but I object to the notion that it is ever a waste of time), but you seem to think that when all else fails, only a smack will be effective. I don't think it's effective at all, certainly not moreso than my method (not really mine, but you know). I could use the same argument that's been used against me back at you. Just because explaining has worked for me doesn't mean it will work in all cases, right? Well, just because a smack has worked for some doesn't mean it is the only, or even the most, effective method.

For myself, I would have to try an awful lot of patient communicating and see it fail in a rather spectacular fashion before I would find myself resorting to corporal punishment (or punishment at all, for that matter). Can these parents really say that they've exhausted all other avenues? I find it hard to believe. And like I said before, if a child is that unruly that physical violence is the only thing they respond to, I doubt it's going to "tame" them at all. You will be modifying their behaviour in the short term, but causing greater problems later on.

Also, I think "the professionals" these days tend to be against corporal punishment in general, so I wouldn't count on them to make your case for you. In fact, society as a whole seems to be drifting further and further from this conventional wisdom as the years pass, indicating to me that people are trying new things and finding that they work better. It's not just me and my kids, I assure you.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
RANGER
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posted 25 July 2006 08:04 AM      Profile for RANGER     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, a very interesting discussion here, and for me it confirms my thoughts that just like kids react differently to this subject so do adults, for some to say if you where spanked as a child you will become some kind of "abuser" as an adult is not looking at this realisticly but more theoreticly, I can only speak for my own expieriences and say when I was a young boy I stole something "once", I skipped a class in school "once" when my parents caught me, I wasn't only "talked to" I was taken out to the woodshed, so to speak and yes felt humiliated and so on,but as an adult looking back feel strongly that it was the best thing to do to teach me right from wrong, I also knew of kids that where talked to and talked to and talked to who ended up in group homes on the street and even in jail, a parent and a child are not equal, it's a parents job to know their kids and teach them in the way they feel is right, when those kids are adults they are on their own and hopefully prepared to make the right decisions for their kids, claiming there is a method one way or another is irresponsible to me, and is a contributor to the disrespective culture we see far too much of today.
From: sunshine coast | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 25 July 2006 01:05 PM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I was taken out to the woodshed, so to speak and yes felt humiliated and so on,but as an adult looking back feel strongly that it was the best thing to do to teach me right from wrong,

This is better know as operant conditioning and is totally dependent upon fear of punishment, while using humiliation as its consequence. But there is a ton of research that proves this conditioning ONLY works on those who are fearful of those consequences. If, for example, you believe there is no way anyone will know 'what you did', then there is no motivation NOT to do it because there will be no negative consequences.

This method does not instill any sort of values or principles in a person because fear is its only motivator.

quote:
I also knew of kids that where talked to and talked to and talked to who ended up in group homes on the street and even in jail

Being talked to in a lecture format is not real communication. The only way to instill values and principles in any person is to engage them in dialogue and to convince them via the merits of one's arguments.

Ultimately, human beings are, by their very Nature, creatures with incredible communication abilities. Therefore, not to apply those abilities in a respectful and inclusive manner that encourages even more like-minded behaviour simply reduces us to the level of every other beast that uses force and intimidation to achieve its ends.


From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged

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