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Author Topic: Eminem's Mosh
Rush
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Babbler # 6000

posted 26 October 2004 07:01 PM      Profile for Rush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was visiting http://www.michaelmoore.com/ and it has links to the new Eminem Mosh video ( http://michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=254 ):

Real: http://boss.streamos.com/real/interscope/eminem/encore/video/mosh-rev/00_mosh-rev.ram

Windows Media: http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/interscope/eminem/encore/video/mosh-rev/00_mosh-rev.asx

I'm well aware a number of babblers do not like Eminem, eg: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001177 and consider him a misogynist and a homophobe http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,333436,00.html

I still don't like him, although I think it is good he put out a music video that criticizes Bush.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 26 October 2004 07:55 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like, as in appreciate, Eminem, while being very critical of some of the imagery he employs. Frankly, aside from the ludicrous crap and the just plain awful stuff he says about women and gays, lying just underneath is as strong a class-consciousness as hip-hop has seen since 'bling-bling' took center stage. This is an excellent video. I wish it came out alot sooner.
From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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posted 26 October 2004 08:53 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh, I have a feeling this'll go over about as well around here as Pam Anderson endorsing animal rights... but I for one certainly think it's an admirable gesture, even if it's really not one of his better songs by any technical measure.

I don't get why people allow themselves to get so incensed by Eminem without really paying any attention to him. The homophobic rhetoric appeared in his work after he was accused of being anti-gay over ludicrious misinterpretation of his older material. It was blatantly and directly satirical.

He definitely has unfortunate issues with women, but I'd be extremely surprised to find they weren't exaggerated for the purpose of conveying a hyperbolic version of his mindstate.

He's just this guy, really.

This guy who, when he wants to put the work in, is seriously among the top five rappers in history, in terms of technique and lyricism.

Be nice if he'd put the work in more often...


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 26 October 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I don't think people here would disapprove of this song/video. If the song itself used misogyny or homophobia to further his argument against Bush, that would be a different story.

Eminem even acknowledges in the song that people may have different views than him on a variety of issues, but that everyone should set those aside in order to defeat Bush. That doesn't mean giving up your principles. It just means finding common ground.


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 26 October 2004 10:06 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's my FAVOURITE THING when people are like "Sure so and so is sexist but ... "

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 26 October 2004 10:11 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't like hiphop, but well, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater, no?
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
spatrioter
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posted 26 October 2004 10:54 PM      Profile for spatrioter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm making no excuses for Eminem's horrible attitudes (satirical or not, they're still offensive). I just think that in this specific instance, he isn't spouting any hatred.

A lot of people who participate in anti-war demos have really fucked up views when it comes to other issues - gay rights, women's rights, the poor, race/class issues, etc. But as long as they keep those fucked up views to themselves, what's wrong with finding common ground to fight Bush?


From: Trinity-Spadina | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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posted 26 October 2004 11:09 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
M&M is brilliant, finally saw the new vid on Much Music -- look really forward to his dropping the album.

Thanks for the links.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 27 October 2004 12:45 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not worth it.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Baldfresh
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posted 27 October 2004 01:00 AM      Profile for Baldfresh   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Eminem even acknowledges in the song that people may have different views than him on a variety of issues, but that everyone should set those aside in order to defeat Bush. That doesn't mean giving up your principles. It just means finding common ground.

Yep; or not even finding common ground: you can still dislike someone immensely and yet acknowledge the truth or even goodness in their message, even if you find fault in that person in other ways (hell, even if that person is being a hypocrite, a valid message is a valid message: a murderer saying "Stop the violence" on the way to his trial is still correct in what he's saying)

That being said, Em is far from the strongest voice trying to get people out against Bush, and a large volume of his fans are too young to vote anyway. Still, he'll get some up off their butts and that counts for something, even if I won't be bothering to watch this.


From: to here knows when | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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posted 27 October 2004 01:36 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
It's my FAVOURITE THING when people are like "Sure so and so is sexist but ... "

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.


People are complex things.

There's always a "but".


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 27 October 2004 04:48 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
It's my FAVOURITE THING when people are like "Sure so and so is sexist but ... "

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.



Did you watch the video, Audra?

From: O for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 October 2004 11:47 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's maybe something like this:

Sure Ernst Zundel denies the Holocaust but... (he makes a terrific strudel!)

Sure that rapper calls all women "bitches" but... (all my friends are listening to him!)

Sure that preacher calls for the righteous smiting of "fags" but... (his church donated 0.01% of their profits to charity last year!)

or in this specific case:

Sure Eminem is misogynistic and violent but... (he slags Bush, so let's just ignore everything else, ok?)


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 12:19 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Saving the discussion evaluating Eminem as a whole for later, I'll weigh in and say this video and song is brilliant.

Why? Simply because it reaches out to his audience and conveys an important message, clearly and effectively, however imperfectly.

The combined might of both Bush and Kerry propaganda teams could never produce anything that comes close to this.

Also, his audience represent exactly who is being hurt today by not being aware - they are the ones experiencing poorer living condition, and they are the ones fighting in Iraq. Sometimes they have undesirable views. But this won't change until more of these types of messages are put forward.

Many of these people voted to Bush, wanted to kill "ragheads", and bang the women on their lads mags (Maxim, et al.), but now face circumstances that forces them to grow up.

Also, any video made by rappers and shown on MTV that shows youth getting angry over tax-cuts, evictions, racism, illegal wars, and dealing with all this by engaging in the political system equals one sexist exploitative video not made and shown.

I'm not saying "forgive Eminem, make him your homey", I'm saying that we should encourage this sort of thing. If the "progressive" community comes out and says, "hey Eminem, this is the sort of thing we like", Eminem might like do more of this - and join the legion of pop acts that have maintained their relevance by growing up with their audience. If the progressives turn around and say "you are still a bastard Eminem, this video changes nothing" this will encourage the idea that progressives are only interested in complaining and whining.

United we win.

yo nigga'
PhoneyWatch


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 12:54 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I think it's maybe something like this:

in this specific case:

Sure Eminem is misogynistic and violent but... (he slags Bush, so let's just ignore everything else, ok?)


I think a better analogy would be government or NGO working with a private industry that has polluted/exploited in the past but is now sincerly and earnestly changing its ways.

Attacking Eminem now, would make you the complementary of organisations who put all principles above any process.


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 12:56 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sure that rapper calls all women "bitches" but.

Is there a popular male rapper who is not misogynistic and doesn't refer to women as bitches?

Great video but I really can't defend Eminem.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 01:01 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Is there a popular male rapper who is not misogynistic and doesn't refer to women as bitches?

Great video but I really can't defend Eminem.


How how dismissive and how ignorant.

Andre 3000, The fellahs from Black Eyed Peas, K-OS... off the top of my head.

Also, the irony behind Jay-Z's song "100 Problems but a Bitch Ain't One" (which is great) has been lost on most.

Has anyone listened to Led Zeppellin lyrics?

Squeeze my lemon,
UnrealTimePeace


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 October 2004 01:03 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think a better analogy would be government or NGO working with a private industry that has polluted/exploited in the past but is now sincerly and earnestly changing its ways.

Like when McDonald's introduces their new "Heart Smart" menu, and progressives everywhere become their new bestest friend?

Nobody's stopping Eminem from saying his piece, but until he demonstrates a little humility with regard to his misogyny, don't expect everyone to be high-fiving him. Disliking Bush is not the same as saying "I was wrong and I'm sorry". Where's the sincere and earnest you mention?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 01:19 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How how dismissive and how ignorant.

Yeah, yeah. So we have something in common.

It is called The Lemon Song, I don't believe anyone is referred to as a "bitch" but if you are suggesting Led Zeppelin is misogynistic, I fail to see how that supports your argument, whatever your argument is (do you have one?) unless you are suggesting that the misogyny of 70's metal bands somehow justifies the misogny of modern rap singers. Is that your argument?

And I never really though of Black Eyed Peas and K-OS as being rap singers. In fact Black Eyed Peas would probably reject the label, wouldn't they? Or is that idea too phunk?

As for the rest, never heard of 'em.

And, my equally ignornant friend, I was asking a question based on my admittedly limited knowledge of a musical genre. You could choose to educate me with an answer. Anyone can be an asshole even me. See?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 01:22 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Magoo sez: "Like when McDonald's introduces their new "Heart Smart" menu, and progressives everywhere become their new bestest friend?"

Eminem's video shows a far better understanding of his customers than McDonald's "Heart Smart" menu, and is better excecuted. Also, each should be judged on their own merits, if McDonald's serves healthy food in an environmentally friendly manner, great. If not, it should be condemned as a empty ploy. Ditto for Dre's boy.

Magoo also sez: "Nobody's stopping Eminem from saying his piece, but until he demonstrates a little humility with regard to his misogyny, don't expect everyone to be high-fiving him. Disliking Bush is not the same as saying "I was wrong and I'm sorry". Where's the sincere and earnest you mention?"

You couldn't stop Eminem, so I'm not worried about you trying or even making the suggestion that you would.

Eminem's effort so far doesn't seem contrived, and the lyrics are written and rapped rather earnestly - it doesn't sound like a PR team came up with them. Hence, the imperfections. But we'll have to wait to fully judge his sincerity. Also, apologies are nice, but only a fool waits for them. Actions are better than words.

So, Eminem's effort is a good one, and I welcome it and more of the same. This video does far more to help progressives now than an apology would. Arguing over it would be counterproductive.

peace!
IllegitimatePlannedRegard


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 01:26 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Like when McDonald's introduces their new "Heart Smart" menu, and progressives everywhere become their new bestest friend?

That's not true. Oposition to MacDoanlds is based on their environmental and labour records not crappy food.

When they start producing foods in biodegradable wrappers that don't litter our cities and country sides and begin closing down those smog factories they call drive thrus I might consider visiting. But not likely.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 October 2004 01:28 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This video does far more to help progressives now than an apology would.

Uh, why does it have to be 'either/or'? If he wanted to, is there any reason he couldn't do both?

If he's grown up, let him show it. If, on the other hand, he's just made a rap video that's critical of Bush, great. Hopefully it will change a few minds about Bush. Why should it change any minds about Eminem??

A rap that's critical of the establishment isn't exactly novel, eh?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
mijawara
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posted 27 October 2004 01:34 PM      Profile for mijawara   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
dawgz:

I'm going to have to take FDW's back on this one. Sure, it's grand when indie champs like Michael Stipe and Death Cab for Cutie hit the road campaigning against Bush, but so what? Millions of young potential voters (the ones who are being shipped off to Baghdad while their blue collar jobs are shipped off elsewhere, and exactly the ones who appear in this video) sat out the contest in 2000, and they won't be driven to the ballot box on Tues. by Bruce Springsteen.

Among young Americans, Eminem is probably the single biggest and most credible pop icon around. Most of the time he chooses to use that power in insufferably offensive and boring ways. But a week before the most important US election in a generation, he decided to release a video that kicks the teeth out of every bit of Kerry-Edwards young voter agitprop; clearly, with stratetic intent. Applauding this doesn't mean you have to applaud other aspects of "Eminem"--anymore than celebrating Gandhi means you must forgive his abusiveness as a husband.


From: Ottawa Centre | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 01:38 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Applauding this doesn't mean you have to applaud other aspects of "Eminem"--anymore than celebrating Gandhi means you must forgive his abusiveness as a husband.

Well said. I agree.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 27 October 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mijawara:
...they won't be driven to the ballot box on Tues. by Bruce Springsteen.

Bruce is giving rides to the polls? What a guy!


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 01:41 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
WingNut be speaking: "I fail to see how that supports your argument, whatever your argument is (do you have one?) unless you are suggesting that the misogyny of 70's metal bands somehow justifies the misogny of modern rap singers. Is that your argument?"

No, that's not my point. My point was to ridicule a stupid question. Why pick on rap?

He continues: "And I never really though of Black Eyed Peas and K-OS as being rap singers. In fact Black Eyed Peas would probably reject the label, wouldn't they? Or is that idea too phunk?"

What ar they then, cabaret singers? They rap, they are hip-hop artists, they be rappers, silly!

He admits "As for the rest, never heard of 'em."
Where have you been? Jay-Z, you don't know Jay-Z?

Finally "And, my ... friend, I was asking a question based on my admittedly limited knowledge of a musical genre. You could choose to educate me with an answer. Anyone can be an asshole even me."

Yes, it is true. It is easy to be an ass-hole. And I did answer you. Do you want a catalogue?

Also, excuse my ignorance, but are there any Islamics who aren't terrists?

keep it real,
Da Bling Bling Watch


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 October 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Millions of young potential voters (the ones who are being shipped off to Baghdad while their blue collar jobs are shipped off elsewhere, and exactly the ones who appear in this video) sat out the contest in 2000, and they won't be driven to the ballot box on Tues. by Bruce Springsteen.

So you're saying there's a whole demographic who's not going to listen unless the message comes from their favourite misogynist? If their attitudes are as vile as his, maybe they'd be better off voting for Bush. At least Bush isn't going to let them bitches get away with much.

For the record: opposing Bush = good. That's all. When Bush is defeated, let's all remind Eminem that he's got a hell of a lot of emotional maturity to work on before he's anything anyone could remotely call progressive.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 27 October 2004 02:31 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In a perfect world, we would all be perfect people, no one would say anything to piss off another segment of the population. We would all be tolerant of each other and say soothing platitudes all day long but never really having a real thought or discussion.

In a not so perfect, but "real" world, we are individual people that have other people which strike our "personal" emotions. The thing is they are individuals, with the right to be whatever individual they want to. The question, like in the case of Eminem, becomes the social contract that differing segments of society want the more prominent ones like him to mold to. If they do not, it appears that some seem to think nothing good can come from them. Which is not true.

Those who give voice to opinions differing from ours,are there to give us pause to think about ourselves and our actions in the greater scheme of things. Are we tolerant? Are we correct in our presumptions? By rejecting differing voices and silencing them without listening or thought we are doing individual selves no favour. Because that "narrow" parameter we have created from bias is truly a hallmark of "intolerance", not progressive awareness.

Great link, thank you and it's fine video and message from Eminem who is growing into self-inspection and awareness of his role in the world.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 02:32 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FakeDesignerWatch not be speaking. He be posing. He be full of shit.

His point be to ridicule. But that so uncool for an only fool.

Why pick on rap? Cause it be crap. Not to him but to me but if my opinion so import to he, than I offer it for free.

What are they then? He do not know. He can only show how he be slow. He don't see that phunk is funk like elephunk cause the rap, the silly crap, done give him a bitch slap.

I don't know Jay-Z but I get some Z's. What kinda fool, but a rappin' fool, what assume that everyone must be plugged into his shit? That is chauvinistic, antagonistic, leads to mysognystic bullshit. Git it?

He be asshole, he pose a role, he think he cool when he just a fool.

Not all islamics are terrorists but all posers are pathetic hos.

Word. Peace Out. Fuck you too.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 27 October 2004 02:36 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A) I really liked the video

B) I don't mean to be rude

But WingNut that was fucking awesome dude.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 27 October 2004 02:39 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Is there a popular male rapper who is not misogynistic and doesn't refer to women as bitches?

Great video but I really can't defend Eminem.



Wingnut

Check out Sweatshop Union... You'll LOVE them. *Seriously*!!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mijawara
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posted 27 October 2004 02:47 PM      Profile for mijawara   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
FakeDesignerWatch not be speaking. He be posing. He be full of shit.

This posting was very funny, and proves that despite other comments on this thread that would suggest otherwise, babblers do have a sense of humour (FDW aside).

As for not knowing who Jay-Z is, well, come on. You deserve to be made fun of just a little for that, WingNut.

Personally, hip hop has left me cold since about the time I graduated from high school, but Talib Kweli, Atmosphere, Common, and Mos Def would probably have something to say about your insinuation that all male rappers share Eminem's hatred of women. Not much separates that from FDW's comment about Islamic fundies, does it?


From: Ottawa Centre | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 27 October 2004 02:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, Debra.

In all seriousness, I was being less than genuine when I asked that question.

I am not all that familiar with the huge genre which is generically called rap. Most of my exposre comes from MuchMusic (And I am forty-something. I am not about to begin attending the clubs to become more familiar and really, it is not my music). Nevertheless, watching MuchMusic, and perhaps it is not refelective of the larger rap subculture, one can't help but to sense the gains for women are being stripped away belly-button by belly-button and replaced with a form of hostility toward women that would have made our dad's dads raving feminists by comparison.

In much of what I can see, young women are reduced to nothing more than scantily clad decorative objects and even many of the young female artists are reduced to singing pseudo-strippers.

Sorry, But that is what is being portrayed.

With that said, Eminem often does come across as an artist with brains regardless of what unfortunate thngs he might have actually communicated.

Edited to add following the last: Oh, yeah, and raps love affair with the consumer culture is something that does leave me cold.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 27 October 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

WingNut that was classic!

I am also not an Eminem fan (its hard enough to get his name right). But the video is great. Now, if he sticks to rapping about social problems, and stays away from the anti-women and anti-gay stuff, he just may do some good.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 27 October 2004 03:03 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wingnut you missed your calling as a rapper! The bias message was similar to Eminem's more sexist raps, but the mastery of the Rap was good.
From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
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posted 27 October 2004 03:15 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
Word. Peace Out. Fuck you too.

Well said.

Sorry Nutz, I guess I should have taken your dismissal and ignorance of what is probably the most influential genre among today's youth in stride.

Magoo, yer fighting straws again. We don't say the things you say we say.

Don't criticize what you can't understand.

The Real Reloj


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6901

posted 27 October 2004 03:28 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I am not all that familiar with the huge religion which is generically called Islam. Most of my exposre comes from CNN and Fox News (And I am forty-something. I am not about to begin attending the Mosques to become more familiar and really, it is not my spirituality). Nevertheless, watching CNN and Fox News, and perhaps it is not refelective of the larger Islam subculture, one can't help but to sense the gains for women are being stripped away hijab by hijab and replaced with a form of hostility toward women that would have made our dad's dads raving feminists by comparison.

In much of what I can see, young women are reduced to nothing more than cloaked submissive objects and even many of the young female faithful are reduced to worshiping pseudo-chattel.

Sorry, But that is what is being portrayed.

With that said, Bin Laden often does come across as a terrorist with brains regardless of what unfortunate thngs he might have actually communicated.

Oh, yeah, and Islam's love affair with the suicide bomber culture is something that does leave me cold.


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 27 October 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Are you drawing parallels between rap and Islam?

'cos, if you is, you be trippin', yo!

Join me everyone over 40 and let's get...juggy with it!, as the young folk say.


From: Qubec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6901

posted 27 October 2004 03:51 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Are you drawing parallels between rap and Islam?

No, I am clearly drawing a parallel between judging a musical culture based on superficial and shallow understanding and judging a religious culture in the same way.

I'm not saying hip-hop is as important as Islam, I'm saying that watching Much Music doesn't give you enough info to judge rap as a genre.

One could have began this whole conversation with:
"I am a 40 something man whose only experience with rap is through Much Music, from what I can see there is a lot of misogyny"

That would signal that a person wants to know more.

Instead of "Name me one rapper who doesn't use bitch."

See how one could be offended?

Just like, it would be best to say, "I am a middle-aged white Christian whose only experience with Islam is with CNN, from what I can see..."

If only....

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: FakeDesignerWatch ]


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see how it happens, Hinterland. When you are so full of yourself as to believe your musical taste is of international and monumental signifigance, it is easy to understand how someone mistakes a North American urban music genre with one of the world's great religions. It has happened before. Remember John Lennon's "we are bigger than Jesus"?

So our young friend (is 40!) believes rap is on an equal par with Islam. Maybe it is relevant though given the parallels he has drawn between rap's portrayal of women and the treatment of women in Islamic states. Maybe he is telling us something to we should be paying attention. Maybe the Taliban is just another rhyme to him.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
f1 dad
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6141

posted 27 October 2004 04:10 PM      Profile for f1 dad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Is there a popular male rapper who is not misogynistic and doesn't refer to women as bitches?

The guys in Jurassic 5 don't, do they? I have no clue as to whether or not they're popular though.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
leaflord
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5587

posted 27 October 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for leaflord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately, I'm on the computer at work which has no speakers, so I'll download the video later, but from what I know of Eminem, I know he's capable of really sticking it to Bush in a way that would stick.

All I have to say is Eminen, FINALLY!

WHERE WERE YOU SIX MONTHS AGO !!!!


From: Montreal | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6901

posted 27 October 2004 04:25 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
WingNut begins "I see how it happens, Hinterland. When you are so full of yourself as to believe your musical taste is of international and monumental signifigance, it is easy to understand how someone mistakes a North American urban music genre with one of the world's great religions."

I explicitly say that I don't believe this, clearly you missed the point.

And so, he repeats himself "So our young friend believes rap is on an equal par with Islam."

Still, he tries: "Maybe it is relevant though given the parallels he has drawn between rap's portrayal of women and the treatment of women in Islamic states. Maybe he is telling us something to we should be paying attention."

And almost gets it! I never deny that there is misogyny in rap. I don't even deny that the most public face of rap seems sexist. But this is not the fault of "rap" - as it is a genre. Clearly it is due to the success of artists using sexist images, and fault should also be laid at the feet of mainstream media who chose to simply acquiesce and show these shocking images. However, we are not innocent if we chose to equate rap with sexism.

As with Islam, which is obviously something we should care about, if one wishes to understand rap culture (which I think we should because it is current, and is an international phenomena - not at the level of Islam, of course), we should make every attempt to go beyond the mainstream media to do so. In fact, we should talk to those who are part of the culture directly. Until then, it would be wise to hold back our opinions.

So, there are many many rappers, many of whom are not sexists. Including Jay-Z who is probably the most celebrated of current rappers - so if you don't even know Jay-Z, you know very, very little about rap.

An adendum: "Maybe the Taliban is just another rhyme to him."
No, this is another rhyme to me:

Yo Taliban!
How you sucka's ran.
We bust a cap in yo'ass,
And now you in the can

Word,
Fakey


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mijawara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4590

posted 27 October 2004 04:36 PM      Profile for mijawara   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some interesting analysis of the video over here.

While it pains me to be in the unfamiliar position of standing up for hip hop culture, WingNut appears to be not only over 40, but also living in a Muskoka bomb shelter. Hip hop culture is the global youth culture, full stop. It's spawned so many different local idioms that I'd feel comfortable saying there's no other musical genre that has its reach and weight internationally. You might not know who Jay-Z is, WN, but ask the kids in Cape Town and Beirut and Jakarta: they do.


From: Ottawa Centre | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 04:54 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please do give me a break. Macdonalds is everywhere but I don't worship them either. Hip Hop is a cultural phenomen, sure. But so was rock'n'roll, blue jeans and so is text messaging.

Look at the old guy above me who defends his music like I did when I was 17. That is simply pathetic.

But he acknowledges that the public face of rap is one of demeaning women (and I would add violence) and then he says "this is not the fault of rap" but lays the blame on the media which is the outlet to which kids are exposed to rap and purchase the music.

It is rappers who write the lyrics and make the videos and promote the sexism, the violence, the glorification of SUV's and material, bling-bling, things.

So he says I should not make my judgements on the public face of rap which is the face made public and worn by rappers. Not the media. Not me. Rappers.

"In the gym I see your ass up on the stair master
But you got it on level 2, bitch go a little faster
Look girl I ain't gon lie, I'll tell you how I feel
They should hand cuff your big ass to the treadmill
You wanna work out now, cause you know its gettin' hot
And your big ass fin to pop all up out the halter top
Find the right chick, wearing some tight shit, and it's on
See your ass wearing some tight shit, we like "She wrong"

--50 cent

What utter nonsense he, cheapwatch, presents. And lousy rap too.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: WingNut ]


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 27 October 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but ask the kids in Cape Town and Beirut and Jakarta: they do.

For mostly the same reason they know about Coke, and who Mickey Mouse is.

My favourite Onion one-liner about rap: "Jay-Z sends shout-out to his shareholdaz"


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
FakeDesignerWatch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6901

posted 27 October 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for FakeDesignerWatch   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
This is the point, you don't know rap. You know a few things about it and think that's it. Rap isn't like McDonald's.

You can't generalise for the whole by looking at a few.

And you shouldn't jugde rap based on your flimsy understanding.

For the analogy

McDonald's is to Food
what
Puff Daddy is to Rap
what
Bin Laden is to Islam

or

CNN or Fox is to News Programming
what
MuchMusic or MTV is to Music Video Programming

I'm outta her!
PhoneyW


From: Milan | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 27 October 2004 06:29 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm the last one to be picking on spelling but this is just too funny in the context of the thread to let go.

FDW final comment

quote:
I'm outta her!
PhoneyW


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stagefffright
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7184

posted 27 October 2004 07:10 PM      Profile for Stagefffright     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great video! Thanks for that.
From: unemployed | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
steffie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3826

posted 27 October 2004 08:46 PM      Profile for steffie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The lyrics are also worth a glance. I never can understand Eminem's words as he "sings" them... Cool video though. Anything that gets American youth to think and vote is okay in my books. I also happen to agree that this particular artist's views on women are abhorrant.
From: What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow / Out of this stony rubbish? | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Budd Campbell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7019

posted 27 October 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for Budd Campbell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
For mostly the same reason they know about Coke, and who Mickey Mouse is.


As someone who will be 50 in less than a year, I cannot help but wonder if age may be a limiting factor in one's ability to respond to and interpret popular culture and its music.


From: Kerrisdale-Point Grey, Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 10:31 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Absolutley. When I was young I thought music could change the world. And certainly many who were around to experience '60's youth culture thought so.

But eventually we grow up to recognize music is a business and the goal isn't revolution but accumulation.

We get over it, right? But fakewatch, that dude is 40. At least he says so.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 27 October 2004 10:53 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you drawing parallels between rap and Islam?

'cos, if you is, you be trippin', yo!


Check out such little Lauryn Hill, Method Man, Raekwon, the rest of the Wu, Killah Priest, Rakim, Nas, Gran Puba, Ice Cube, Public Enemy...

Oh wait. They're superfamous as well brilliant. And Muslim.

Magoo re: Jay-Z, ever listen to The Blueprint? Ever hear Heart of The City or H.O.V.A. in a club? On a dancefloor?

More from the ever whatever bable's own M&M :

quote:
So you're saying there's a whole demographic who's not going to listen unless the message comes from their favourite misogynist? If their attitudes are as vile as his, maybe they'd be better off voting for Bush. At least Bush isn't going to let them bitches get away with much.

Classic. Dismiss Amerikkka's biggest pop artist presenting a politically progressive message, and tell his listeners to vote Bush... Brilliant strategy.

Maybe they just haven't figured out that they need to put The Chronic away and pull out those Ani Difranco tapes.

Tis wonderful to be so morally right, sensitive and unheard. Just what the Left needs. Oh wait, we perfected it.

[ 27 October 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 27 October 2004 10:55 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh wait. They're superfamous as well brilliant. And Muslim.

That's super.


From: Qubec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Gross
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3576

posted 27 October 2004 11:23 PM      Profile for Paul Gross   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't like Eminem. His style is violent, misogynistic, homophobic, megalomaniacal, etc.

Nonetheless, the video for Mosh is very powerful (it's still megalomaniacal though). The fast paced video, a Guerrilla News Network collaboration, shows various people hurt by Bush policies coming together and packs a lot of points.

Here's the source of the video
http://www.gnn.tv/content/eminem_mosh.html
And an article:
http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=752

Here's another source of the video that seems fast.

Lyric snippets:

quote:

To the people up top, on the side and the middle,
Come together, let's all bomb and swamp just a little
Just let it gradually build, from the front to the back
All you can see is a sea of people, some white and some black
Don't matter what color, all that matters is we gathered together
To celebrate for the same cause, no matter the weather
If it rains let it rain, yea the wetter the better
They ain't gonna stop us, they can't, we're stronger now more then ever,
They tell us no we say yea, they tell us stop we say go,
Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell we gonna let em know
Stomp, push up, mush, fuck Bush, until they bring our troops home
...
Let the President answer on high anarchy
Strap him with AK-47, let him go
Fight his own war, let him impress daddy that way
No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our soil
No more psychological warfare to trick us to think that we ain't loyal
If we don't serve our own country we're patronizing a hero
Look in his eyes, it's all lies, the stars and stripes
They've been swiped, washed out and wiped,
And Replaced with his own face, mosh now or die
If I get sniped tonight you'll know why, because I told you to fight

And as we proceed, to mosh through this desert storm, in these closing statements, if they should argue, let us beg to differ, as we set aside our differences, and assemble our own army, to disarm this weapon of mass destruction that we call our president, for the present, and mosh for the future of our next generation, to speak and be heard, Mr. President, Mr. Senator, (can you hear us?)



From: central Centretown in central Canada | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2004 11:48 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Nonetheless, the video for Mosh is very powerful (it's still megalomaniacal though). The fast paced video, a Guerrilla News Network collaboration, shows various people hurt by Bush policies coming together and packs a lot of points.

That much is true. It is very powerful and seems to become more powerful each time it is viewed. Regardless of everything else, Eminem could do more for the rights of women and minorities south of the border, than any of us could ever hope to, if this video helps get enough kids out to vote to deny Bush regime the opportunity to stack the supreme court.

The more I watch it the more I think good for him.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 28 October 2004 12:07 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, the animation is excellent. It reminds me a bit of the technique used in the movie Waking Life, in which they filmed scenes and then animated on top of the footage. I wonder if they did something similar in some of the scenes in this video.
From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Paul Gross
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3576

posted 28 October 2004 12:31 AM      Profile for Paul Gross   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't stop watching this video. There's so much stuff in it, it's hard to catch it all. (And it's not easy to pause and move forward and backward frame by frame with streaming video.)

Here is a very good article with interpretations of the video. Scroll down for stills of the harder to catch images.

this page has more info and links to the video and to vote for the video on MTV.


From: central Centretown in central Canada | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
leaflord
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5587

posted 28 October 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for leaflord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I finally had the chance to see it and thought it was great. Direct and right to the point. Although I really liked other recent political videos such as Green Day's American Idiot, this one's more important as it comes right out and says what it has to.

Normally I like a bit of artistry/obscurity in my music, but that's not what's needed now.


From: Montreal | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 28 October 2004 09:46 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I was wondering when politics would start coming out in pop culture...

Wonderful very heavy background music giving the sense of impending doom.

The lyrics have high points and low points. Low points are all the references to 'follow me'. After all, that's what David Koresh said.

High points are the 'no blood for oil, and the references to fighting together to achieve a common goal.

One problem I see is at the end of the marching and bursting through doors they're not overthrowing anything, they're all standing in line to vote.

What if the vote is lost, then what? I'll grant that for many even getting out to vote is a step they may not take otherwise, so good on Eminem.

However, voting by itself is not going to change much. Neither is waiting for Eminem to 'lead them to the light'.

I was also a little disturbed by the reference to 9/11. That ploy has already been used by Michael Moore. My objection is that I don't see the point. Airplanes crashed into buildings, flown or not flown by Islamic terrorists. So what?

Are we supposed think the Bush administration had something to do with it? If so, I didn't see anything in the image to give that impression.

The other reference I wondered about was the bin Laden clip. The backdrop falls away and there is Cheney and Rumsfeld chatting.

Is this Eminem's way of acknowledging the role those two played in the building of the fundamentalist 'Islamic' movement? If so, why not just say so in the lyrics.

I doubt anyone unfamiliar with the Reagan cabinet, and their role in Afghanistan, will get the drift.

Also the repeated images of the cops harrassing the black dude. After Rodney King, this is hardly revolutionary. Is there someone still alive in the US that doesn't know cops go out of their way to harass blacks?

On the high side of the images, my favourite was the soldier returning home to be shown a letter re-assigning him to Iraq.

This is a issue in the US that affects a lot of soldiers and their families, and one which the mass media stay away from.

So I guess I can say my opinion of 'Mosh' is mixed.

What remains to be seen is whether Eminem will follow through with more political statements, with a changed attitude towards the everyday struggles of women and children, and with a greater understanding of the economic system that causes the problems.

If he does, good for him. If not, I'll say that this was an attempt at publicity, and not much more.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 28 October 2004 11:38 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow.

The display of self-assurance in the face of extremely evident unfamiliarity in this thread is truly overwhelming.

There are quite a few valid criticisms of Eminem to be made, both artistically and in terms of his ostensible opinions.

Congratulations, you have banded together and managed to miss ALL of them.

Mock-ebonics is the latest progressive tool, eh? I'd better brush up on my racial caricature skills. Good stuff.

Jeez you guys.

You heard a rumour he was sexist. You heard it said he was homophobic. You read or heard some lyrics quoted out of context. You don't like rap music to begin with.

You have no grounds upon which to proceed.

Listen to Eminem's albums in sequence. Read along with the lyrics. Read his interviews. Pay attention.

You're almost all wrong about almost everything.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5953

posted 29 October 2004 04:08 AM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i dont understand why we have to argue about if Hip Hop is really sexist or not, obviously many images protrated by Hip Hop videos are sexist , thats what matter. It doesnt matter if a few unfamous hip hop artists happen to be equality loving or not, its stupid to pick on such little things. I think its totally BS. Call it what it is, hip hop is sexist.

And i love the Eminem's video.


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 29 October 2004 06:41 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JD, not all of us babblers are anti-hiphop or anti-Eminem.

A lt of the problem is that so many progressives identify with an extremely conservative aesthetic. A lot of Leftists don't get the point that a guy with three (well, four I guess with B. Rabbit (Bugs Bunny anybody?)) names isn't exactly literal.

The Mosh video makes a strong argument for black and white working class unity. It's very powerful. Just wish it had been out for before voter registration was ending.

On a more general hiphop note, I really enjoy Pound magazinefor hiphop culture and politics. Also The Source is excellent. It's available at pretty every newsstand, and features really excellent debate and discussion as well as general hiphoppiness.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 29 October 2004 06:50 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It doesnt matter if a few unfamous hip hop artists happen to be equality loving or not, its stupid to pick on such little things. I think its totally BS. Call it what it is, hip hop is sexist.

I hardly think Lauryn Hill or K-os or The Roots or Missy are unknown. But sexism and hate do matter. It needs to be challenged, dialogued over, rebuttals made.

It's also good to remember that in 2001 two artists were targeted by the FCC in the USA - Eminem and Sarah Jones The Revolution Will Not Be Between My Thighs.

Talking about hate and hate speech in certain ways often reenforces the hate and historical oppression of peoples. Most anti-hate laws are used against people of colour.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 04:23 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BLAKE 3:16:
JD, not all of us babblers are anti-hiphop or anti-Eminem.

Oh I know man, I didn't mean to seem like I didn't realize that. I was just responding to the volume of stuff that, beyond indicating a lack of affinity or agreement, demonstrated a lack of tolerance and (even more dammingly) basic information.

Like, everybody seems to know that eminem is sexist and homophobic. How many of them can quote him on the subject of either women or homosexuals?

And when a quote does come up, how often does it seem like something anyone would EVER say unironically?

quote:
A lot of the problem is that so many progressives identify with an extremely conservative aesthetic.

I don't know if I would think of it as leftist/conservative... I think that a lot of people of any given stripe in the world are unpractised in the appreciation of irony or sarcasm that doesn't come in gigantic fat broad strokes like calling George Bush "Shrub".

quote:
Also The Source is excellent. It's available at pretty every newsstand, and features really excellent debate and discussion as well as general hiphoppiness.

Um, I disagree that the source is excellent. ^_^ I mean, it's certainly venerable and every now and then a few good articles find their way into it, but the magazine's ENTIRE editorial staff quit over the nepotistic relationship between owner David Mays and now co-owner Raymond Scott (AKA Benzino of Made Men / Almighty RSO). They quit because when none of them would review the Made Men album, Mays wrote a sycophantic article in testament to the album's greatness under a pseudonym and slipped it into the issue without consulting them.

That means that anyone working for The Source today... doesn't have a problem with that!?

Hip hop journalism stinks for the most part. Pound is okay. I'm really into Grand Slam though, and Wax Poetics.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 30 October 2004 05:36 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For the edification of those who have not listened to Eminem. This is a sampling of lyrics from several songs and albums.

Those who want more can go to the site shown:

http://www.azlyrics.com/e/eminem.html

Just The Two Of Us

Wake up sweepy head we're here, before we pway
we're gonna take mama for a wittle walk along the pier

Baby, don't cry honey, don't get the wrong idea
Mama's too sweepy to hear you screamin in her ear (ma-maa!)
That's why you can't get her to wake, but don't worry
Da-da made a nice bed for mommy at the bottom of the lake
Here, you wanna help da-da tie a rope around this rock? (yeah!)
We'll tie it to her footsie then we'll roll her off the dock
Ready now, here we go, on the count of free..
One.. two.. free.. WHEEEEEE! (whoooooshhhhh)
There goes mama, spwashin in the wa-ta
No more fightin wit dad, no more restraining order
No more step-da-da, no more new brother
Blow her kisses bye-bye, tell mama you love her (mommy!)
Now we'll go play in the sand, build a castle and junk
But first, just help dad with two more things out the trunk


"Murder Murder"

And have the lady at the desk bring
Money from the safe in the back, stepped in wavin' the Mac
Cooperate and we can operate and save an attack
This bitch tried escapin' the jack

Grabbed her by the throat, it's murder she wrote
You barely heard a word as she choked
It wasn't nuttin' for her to be smoked
But I slammed her on her back 'til her vertebrae broke

Just then the pigs bust in yellin' "Freeze!"
But I'm already wanted for sellin' keys
And bunch of other felonies from A to Z like spellin' bees
So before I dropped to the ground and fell on knees
I bust shots, they bust back
Hit the square in the chest, he wasn't wearin' a vest

Left the house, pullin' out the drive backin' out
Need a backin' out this lady's Jag started blackin' out
Pulled the Mac-10 out, stuck it in her face
Shut ya yackin' mouth before I blow the brain from out the back ya scalp
Drug her by her hair, smacked her up
Thinkin' fuck it, mug her while you're there, jacked her up
Stole her car, made a profit
Grabbed the tape from out the deck and offed it out the window
Like the girl on Set It Off did
Jetted off kid, stole the whip, now I'm a criminal

Drove in thru somebody's yard, dove into they swimmin' pool
Climbed out and collapsed on the patio
I made it out alive but I'm injured badly though

When they sell out in stores the price triples
I ran up the block jumpin' kids on tricycles
And colliding with an 80-year old lady with groceries
There goes the cheese, eggs, milk and Post Toasties
Stood up and started to see stars

Too many siren sounds, it seemed like a thousand police cars
Barely escaped, must-a been some dumb luck
Jumped up and climbed the back of a movin' dump truck
But I think somebody seen me maybe

Plus I lost the damn Nintendo and I must-a dropped the Beanie Baby
Fuck it I give up, I'm surrounded in blue suits
Came out with a white flag hollerin' "TRUCE TRUCE!"
Surrendered my weapon to cops
Wasn't me! It was the gangsta rap and the peppermint Schnopps


"Role Model"

My mind won't work if my spine don't jerk
I slapped Garth Brooks out of his Rhinestone shirt
I'm not a player just a ill rhyme sayer
That'll spray an Aerosol can up at the ozone layer (psssssssh)

My rap style's warped, I'm runnin out the morgue
witcha dead grandmother's corpse to throw it on your porch

Jumped in a Chickenhawk cartoon wit a cape on
And beat up Foghorn Leghorn with an acorn
I'm bout as normal as Norman Bates, with deformative traits
A premature birth that was four minutes late

Mother.. are you there? I love you
I never meant to hit you over the head with that shovel
Will someone explain to my brain that I just severed
a main vein with a chainsaw and I'm in pain?
I take a breather and sighed; either I'm high, or I'm nuts
Cause if you ain't tiltin this room, neither am I
So when you see your mom with a thermometer shoved in her ass
Then it probably is obvious I got it on with her

Cause when I drop this solo shit it's over with
I bought Cage's tape, opened it, and dubbed over it

I came to the club drunk with a fake ID
Don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!
I've been with 10 women who got HIV

Now don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!
I got genital warts and it burns when I pee
Don't you wanna grow up to be just like me!

I tie a rope around my penis and jump from a tree
You probably wanna grow up to be just like me!!!


Can I Bitch"

Hey mister, would ya care to bare witness to
The ass-whippin' I'm about to administer
To this ass-kissin' little vaginal blister
Stanabis, little Marshall Mathers' sister

And in this corner, we have the mister
Not havin' it, it's the mad sinister
Dr. Evil with his bag of tricks for
this little antagonist faggot dick-suckin'
Ex-LL Cool J fan from Windsor

I'm 'bout to murder little Kenny fag Keniff-sta
You bastard I ain't wanna have to diss ya
Canabis, where the fuck you at? I miss ya!

Now at first I ain't really understand the shit
Picture me for a second and imagine it
Chillin' in the Bat-Mansion and relaxin'
When all a sudden some bullshit comes across the scanners

It's Can-i-bitch on some "Stan Lives" shit
It creeped me out at first. Man this is sick
For me, being just a sick, this conflict
Gets my dick harder than arithmetic
And I know how you jealous ones envy
I shoulda knew better from the first few letters you sent me
The first two letters you were tellin' me shit
Like you respect me, like any other regular MC

The third letter you ask how come I ain't return
None of the messages at Shady Records you left me

The fourth letter: "Slim, you really startin' to upset me!"
The fifth letter told me you were comin' to get me
The sixth letter there's a bomb threat in our building
This crazy motherfucker's really tryin' to kill me!

So I went back and read the first few letters that said
Some shit about a message you left
Oh shit, that's not an "E" that's an "A"
This dude wants to leave me a "massage," he's gay!!

Right away I'm on the phone with Dr. Dre
We got a bogey! (Marshall I'm on the way)


"Any Man"

Original Bad Boy on the case, cover your face
Came in the place blowed, and sprayed Puffy with Mase
I laced the weed with insect repellant, better check the smelly
Eminem starts with E, better check the spelling

with a capital, somebody grab me a Snapple
I got an aspirin capsule trapped in my adam's apple (hurry up!)

Somebody dropped me on my head, and I was sure
that my mother did it, but the bitch won't admit it was her

I slit her stomach open with a scalpel when she was six months
and said, "I'm ready now bitch - ain't you feelin these kicks cunt?"

The world ain't ready for me yet, I can tell
I'll probably have a cell next to the furnace in hell
I'm sicker than sperm cells with syphillis germs
and I'm hotter than my dick is, when I piss and it burns

I kick you in the tummy until you sick to your stomach
and vomit so much blood that your clothes stick to you from it (yuck!)
(Yuck!) Hit you in the head with a brick til you plummet
If y'all don't like me, you can suck my dick til you numb it
And all that gibberish you was spittin, you need to kill it
Cause your style is like dyin in my sleep, I don't feel it

I'm ice grillin you, starin you down with a gremlin grin
I'm Eminem, you're a fag in a women's gym
I'm Slim, the Shady is really a fake alias
to save me with in case I get chased by space aliens
A brainiac, with a cranium packed, full of more uranium
than a maniac Saudi Arabian

A highly combustible head, spazmatic
strapped to a Kraftmatic adjustable bed
Laid up in the hospital in critical condition
I flatlined; jumped up and ran from the mortician

High speed, IV full of thai weed
Lookin Chinese, with my knees stuck together like siamese
twins, joined at the groin like lesbians
Uhh, pins and needles, hypodermic needles and pins
I hope God forgives me for my sins -- it probably all depends
on if I keep on killin my girlfriends

Last night I O.D.'d on rush, mushrooms and dust
and got rushed to the hospital to get my system flushed
(Shucks!) I'm an alcoholic and that's all I can say
I call in to work, cause all I do is frolic and play
I swallow grenades, and take about a bottle a day
of Tylenol 3, and talk about how violent I'll be (RRARRRRH)

Give me eleven Excederin my head'll spin
Medicine'll get me revvin like a 747 jet engine
Scratched my balls til I shredded skin
"Doctor, check this rash, look how red it's been"

"It's probably AIDS!" Forget it then
I strike a still pose and hit you with some ill flows
that don't even make sense, like dykes usin dildos

So reach in your billfolds, for ten ducats
and pick up this Slim Shady shit that's on Rawkus
Somethin somethin somethin, somethin I get weeded
My daughter scribbled over that rhyme, I couldn't read it
Damn!


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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posted 30 October 2004 05:50 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is it supposed to be self-evident what you mean to illustrate with those selected quotations, or were you just providing a random sample of Eminem's lyrics to indicate the sort of things he says from time to time?

There are broader matters of context to be considered in the case of every song quoted. I'm just mentioning this because although the satirical and just plain absurdist elements are probably evident in most of those lyrics, I could probably explain a lot about why he wrote certain songs and what the lyrics really mean if anyone's wondering.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 October 2004 11:08 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know we got off on the wrong foot, but sure I would be very interested.
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
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posted 30 October 2004 01:34 PM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know I've always hated eminem with a passion, a large part of that being due to his bigotry and mysoginy but also a large part due to his wasted influence.

Before now all his message ever was was "I speak for the masses, the disillusioned, the pissed off. We're madder than hell so we're gonna..." - what? all he ever advocated was being pissed and fucking around.

I always thought he had a great opportunity to radicalize legions of fans but he was squandering it in stupidity.

So here he makes an excellent video with GNN (who I have a lot of respect for) and actually attempts to send his supporters marching for the ballot box.

As much as we can aknowledge the growth of an individual and their capacity to change then lets give Eminem the benefit of the doubt.

Bush has radicalized him. If he keeps it up he can radicalize his legions of fans. Maybe he's finally realized that he needs a deeper analysis apart from i'm pissed.

Let's hope so.

Video was brilliantly done by the GNN team too.


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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posted 30 October 2004 02:18 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks JF for the info on The Source. I used to read it more in the late 90s and hadn't realized what was what. Thanks for setting the record straight. The main appeal of it to me was the combination of basic music journalism and the inclusion of political/social analysis alongside that.

fuslim, could you let us know what CDs or songs those words are taken from? Except for Role Model I don't see any of the tracks listed on the first three Eminem albums or the first D12. I believe "Just The Two of Us" is 97 Bonnie & Clyde. It was a very twisted parody of a Will Smith song.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 30 October 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I frankly don't see the anti-woman stance of Eminem. I see the anti-gay thing in a few songs, but not what GLAAD has specifically been pissed at him for.

Bonnie and Clyde 97 is also part of the larger theme on the Slim Shady LP which is "I HATE MY EX-GIRLFRIEND/BABY MAMA KIM!1!!".

The Eminem Show's theme was "MY MOM WAS A NEGLIGENT, DRUNK BITCH AND I HATE HER TOO!!1!"

Eminem's music is contextual and all about him, his life, and the people in it. Mosh seems to be his first song not about him.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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posted 30 October 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jesse Dignity:

quote:
You heard a rumour he was sexist. You heard it said he was homophobic. You read or heard some lyrics quoted out of context. You don't like rap music to begin with.

You have no grounds upon which to proceed.


Jesse Dignity again:

quote:
Is it supposed to be self-evident what you mean to illustrate with those selected quotations, or were you just providing a random sample of Eminem's lyrics to indicate the sort of things he says from time to time?

Make up your mind. Either we should read the lyrics or we shouldn't read the lyrics.

Blake 3:16

quote:
fuslim, could you let us know what CDs or songs those words are taken from? Except for Role Model I don't see any of the tracks listed on the first three Eminem albums or the first D12.

The URL for this lyrics website was given at the top of the lyrics post.

Here it is again

http://www.azlyrics.com/e/eminem.html

Marshall Mathers"

[Eminem]
You know I just don't get it
Last year I was nobody
This year I'm sellin records
Now everybody wants to come around like I owe em somethin
Heh, the fuck you want from me, ten million dollars?
Get the fuck out of here

[Chorus One: Eminem]

You see I'm, just Marshall Mathers (Marshall Mathers)
I'm just a regular guy,
I don't know why all the fuss about me (fuss about me)
Nobody ever gave a fuck before,
all they did was doubt me (did was doubt me)
Now everybody wanna run they mouth
and try to take shots at me (take shots at me)

[Eminem]
Yo, you might see me joggin, you might see me walkin
You might see me walkin a dead rottweiler dog
with it's head chopped off in the park with a spiked collar
hollerin at him cause the son of a bitch won't quit barkin
(grrrr, ARF ARF)

Or leanin out a window, with a cocked shotgun
Drivin up the block in the car that they shot 'Pac in
Lookin for Big's killers, dressed in ridiculous
blue and red like I don't see what the big deal is
Double barrel twelve gauge bigger than Chris Wallace
Pissed off, cause Biggie and 'Pac just missed all this

Watchin all these cheap imitations get rich off 'em
and get dollars that shoulda been there's like they switched wallets
And amidst all this Crist' poppin and wristwatches
I just sit back and just watch and just get nauseous
and walk around with an empty bottle of Remi Martin

startin shit like some 26-year-old skinny Cartman ("God damnit!")
I'm anti-Backstreet and Ricky Martin
with instincts to kill N'Sync, don't get me started
These fuckin brats can't sing and Britney's garbage
What's this bitch retarded? Gimme back my sixteen dollars

All I see is sissies in magazines smiling
Whatever happened to whylin out and bein violent?
Whatever happened to catchin a good-ol' fashioned
passionate ass-whoopin and gettin your shoes coat and your hat tooken?

New Kids on the Block, sucked a lot of dick
Boy/girl groups make me sick
And I can't wait 'til I catch all you faggots in public
I'ma love it.. (hahaha)
Vanilla Ice don't like me (uh-uh)
Said some shit in Vibe to spite me (yup)
Then went and dyed his hair just like me (hehe)

A bunch of little kids wanna swear just like me
and run around screamin, "I don't care, just bite me" (nah nah)
I think I was put here to annoy the world
and destroy your little 4-year-old boy or girl
Plus I was put here to put fear in faggots who spray Faygo Root Beer
and call themselves "Clowns" cause they look queer

Faggot2Dope and Silent Gay
Claimin Detroit, when y'all live twenty miles away (fuckin punks)
And I don't wrestle, I'll knock you fuckin faggots the fuck out

Ask 'em about the club they was at when they snuck out
after they ducked out the back when they saw us and bugged out
(AHHH!) Ducked down and got paintballs shot at they truck, blaow!
Look at y'all runnin your mouth again
when you ain't seen a fuckin Mile Road, South of 10
And I don't need help, from D-12, to beat up two females
in make-up, who may try to scratch me with Lee Nails

"Slim Anus," you damn right, Slim Anus
I don't get fucked in mine like you two little flaming faggots!

[Chorus Two: Eminem]

Cause I'm, just Marshall Mathers (Marshall Mathers)
I'm not a wrestler guy,
I'll knock you out if you talk about me (you talk about me)

Come and see me on the streets alone
if you assholes doubt me (assholes doubt me)
And if you wanna run your mouth
then come take your best shot at me (your best shot at me)

[Eminem]
Is it because you love me that y'all expect so much of me?
You little groupie bitch, get off me, go fuck Puffy
Now because of this blonde mop that's on top
and this fucked up head that I've got, I've gone pop?
The underground just spunned around and did a 360
Now these kids diss me and act like some big sissies
"Oh, he just did some shit with Missy,
so now he thinks he's too big to do some shit with MC Get-Bizzy"

My fuckin bitch mom's suin for ten million
She must want a dollar for every pill I've been stealin
Shit, where the fuck you think I picked up the habit?
All I had to do was go in her room and lift up her mattress

Which is it bitch, Mrs. Briggs or Ms. Mathers?
It doesn't matter your [attorney Fred Gibson's a] faggot!
Talkin about I fabricated my past
He's just aggravated I won't ejaculate in his ass (Uhh!)

So tell me, what the hell is a fella to do?
For every million I make, another relative sues
Family fightin and fussin over who wants to invite me to supper

All the sudden, I got 90 some cousins (Hey it's me!)
A half-brother and sister who never seen me
or even bothered to call me until they saw me on TV

Now everybody's so happy and proud
I'm finally allowed to step foot in my girlfriend's house
Hey-hey! And then to top it off, I walked to the newsstand
to buy this cheap-ass little magazine with a food stamp

Skipped to the last page, flipped right fast
and what do I see? A picture of my big white ass
Okay, let me give you motherfuckers some help:
uhh, here - DOUBLE XL, DOUBLE XL
Now your magazine shouldn't have so much trouble to sell
Ahh fuck it, I'll even buy a couple myself


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frac Tal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6796

posted 30 October 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for Frac Tal        Edit/Delete Post
All that, and a duet with Elton John?

Gawd, only in America!


From: I'll never sign it. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 30 October 2004 06:19 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well, it's not just Marshall Mathers, the smart-mouthed punk. Evidence:

quote:
Cocaine Blues- Johnny Cash

Early one mornin' while makin' the rounds
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down
I went right home and I went to bed I stuck that lovin' 44 beneath my head

Got up next mornin' and I grabbed that gun took a shot of cocaine and away I run
Made a good run but I run too slow they overtook me down in Juarez Mexico

Late in the hot joints takin' the pills in walked the sheriff from Jericho Hill
He said Willy Lee your name is not Jack Brown
You're the dirty hack that shot your woman down
Said yes oh yes my name is Willy Lee if you've got the warrant just aread it to me
Shot her down because she made me slow
I thought I was her daddy but she had five more

When I was arrested I was dressed in black
They put me on a train and they took me back
Had no friend for to go my bail they slapped my dried up carcass in that country jail

Early next mornin' bout a half past nine I spied the sheriff coming down the line
Talked and he coughed as he cleared his throat
He said come on you dirty heck into that district court
Into the courtroom my trial began where I was handled by twelve honest men
Just before the jury started out I saw the little judge commence to look about

In about five minutes in walked the man holding the verdict in his right hand
The verdict read in the first degree I hollered Lordy Lordy have a mercy on me

The judge he smiled as he picked up his pin 99 years in the Folsom pen
99 years underneath that ground I can't forget the day I shot that bad bitch down
Come on you've gotta listen unto me lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be


or, how about...

quote:

Knoxville Girl- traditional country song recorded a couple of years ago by Lemonhead


I met a little girl in Knoxville a town we all know well
and every Sunday evening out in her home
I'd dwell we went to take an evening walk about a mile from town
I picked a stick up off the ground and beat that fair girl down
she fell down on her bended knee for mercy
she did cry oh Willy dear don't kill me here
I'm unprepared to die she never spoke another word
I only beat her more until the ground around us with all her blood did
pour I took her by her golden curls and drug
her 'round and 'round throwing her into the river
that flows through Knoxville town go down go
down you Knoxville girl with the dark and
rolling eye go down go down you can never be my bride
I headed back to Knoxville got there
about midnight my mother she was worried
and woke up in a fright saying dear son what have
you done to bloody your clothes so
I told my anxious mother I was bleeding out my nose
I called for a candle to light myself to bed
I called for me a handkerchief to blind me aching head rolled
and tumbled the whole night through a troubles was for
me like flames of hell around my bed and in my eyes could they
carried me down to Knoxville and they put me in a cell
my friends all tried to get me out but none could go
my bail I'm here to waste me life away down in this dirty old jail
because I murdered that Knoxville girl the girl I loved so well


Nice images, huh? And not a bit of "hip hop" or "rap" to either one. So no, I don't tar all hip hop or rap with a single brush, any more than any other genre of music.

All that being said, JD, you can view Mather's past homophobic lyrics as ironic all you want, but I don't care. Words, especially ones that verbalize hatred, can cause harm, and a lot of people can't even understand **sarcasm**, let alone irony.

I'm sure all the 10-25 year-olds who idolize this pig just cover their mouths, roll their eyes, and chortle at his oh-so-droll sense of humour. (See, now that is sarcasm.) Fuckin' right they don't, not most of them. They view as their "hero" validating the idea that "faggots" are worthless pieces of crap, and that women are nothing more than "bitches" to be used and abused for pleasure.

And while some people might think one stinking video excuses all his past pieces of bigoted, filthy shit, I don't. To me he's still a **punk** with a smart mouth, and if he got within arm's reach of me without all his thugs to protect his sissy ass, I'd show him some "homo love" up close and personal.

Naw, that ain't sarcasm OR irony. That's a direct threat.

[ 30 October 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 October 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frac Tal:
All that, and a duet with Elton John?

Gawd, only in America!


Elton John is a self-promoting, self-interested queer who stayed in the closet as long as he possibly could and even still is no friend to the larger gay community.

He is far more interested in self-promotion and attempting to stay "relevant" than anything else. If that means he ends up doing a duet with a homophobe or two, then WTF why should HE care?


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 30 October 2004 08:28 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MEOW!
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 October 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Is that s'pposed to infer that I'm being "catty", or somehow "effeminate" Wingnut?
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 October 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you assuming that being "catty" is only a feminine trait?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 30 October 2004 09:37 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think he is ...

It was just a joke. I couldn't resist. I don't know you at all, but surely Elton is catty. Hear what he said about Madonna?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 October 2004 09:52 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Are you assuming that being "catty" is only a feminine trait?

There was an "or" in there, Michelle. Peace.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 October 2004 10:08 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I think he is ...

It was just a joke. I couldn't resist. I don't know you at all, but surely Elton is catty. Hear what he said about Madonna?


Ahhhh... most of my past while on-line has been spent over at 365, and the so-called "monitors" over there seem more concerned with making sure that we're not citing stories or giving links to competing sites than driving out the pig-ignorant fundies and trolls. I guess my "sensitivity meter" is still set on "hyper"... sorry. Things are kinda tense and everyone over there is strung pretty tight right now. I guess it's contageous.

And yaaaa, Elton is a total self-imvolved bitchy queen. As for his concerns about "Madge" (as the British tabs call her), I couldn't give a shit less. Her and Queen Elton are two peas in a gawddamn pod sucking up to a homophobe prick like Mathers, and saying nothing when a principled straight guy like Moby castigated Mathers for his homophobia and sexism.

Mind you. I don't care for Moby's *music*, but I'd far rather have a cup of tea with him (he's a no-coffee/no-alcohol vegan, apparently) than kick back and party with Elton, Madge and all the "beautiful" phonies who will sell you out in a flash and couldn't raise an uncompromised principle among the bunch of them.

Again, sorry if I was a tad touchy. It'll all sort itself out, one way or the other, come Tuesday night... maybe.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 30 October 2004 10:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

There was an "or" in there, Michelle. Peace.


I was teasing. Just trying not to use smilies.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
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posted 30 October 2004 10:30 PM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was a bit out of line there wingy, no? Love ya and all but that was a bit insulting to Heph I think.

I do agree that Eminem has always stood for a piece of crap and this video doesn't excuse that. But lets say that this is just the leaping off point from which he starts making all sorts of political statements in his songs. He has great potential to reach people if he'd only cut it out with the sexist and bigoted crap.

Man, I used to hate Eminem so much I'd leave when people put his shit on. I still pretty much do but I think this vid shows promise, we'll see how far that goes.

About Rap and hip hop:

It is absolutely untrue that all rappers are mysoginist or bigoted. All you see on Much is the over commercialized crap, the rap equivalent of Britney Spears.

Rap is a noble and revolutionary musical current which has been co-opted by the establishment in much the same way as Punk.

The "Old School" rappers are rapping about respecting women, loving your brother regardless or sexual orientation and living and fighting smart. Basically the exact opposite of mainstream rappers.

Check out Dead Prez, Sweatshop Union, Public Enemy, etc.

Please make the distinction, because to lump them together is like lumping Britney with Ani DiFranco.


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 11:13 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Socrates:
Before now all his message ever was was "I speak for the masses, the disillusioned, the pissed off. We're madder than hell so we're gonna..." - what? all he ever advocated was being pissed and fucking around.

That's actually a later development in his career, and I think it stems from his feeling like a martyr after the flurry of misunderstanding that marked public response to his first major label record.

His original original message was just typical hip hop "look how great I am at putting these words together, working with the language, creating rhyme schemes and similes that you can't match". It unfortunately doesn't translate well into a pop milieu, where people aren't used to appreciating compositions on their technical merits - so they looked at the LITERAL substance of his words, which were never intended to convey anything other than "I am the best rapper, here's how".

--

quote:
originally posted by Blake 3:16
Thanks JF for the info on The Source. I used to read it more in the late 90s and hadn't realized what was what. Thanks for setting the record straight. The main appeal of it to me was the combination of basic music journalism and the inclusion of political/social analysis alongside that.

Yeah and some of the social writing is still on point, it's just in general they really fail as artistic analysis or criticism. It's been known for quite a while now that the mic ratings in the source are for sale, period.

quote:
originally posted by Puetski Murder
I frankly don't see the anti-woman stance of Eminem. I see the anti-gay thing in a few songs, but not what GLAAD has specifically been pissed at him for.

Eminem isn't anti-woman in that he actually generally hates them in principle, but he has a very pronounced and ugly virgin/whore complex. He spends a distressing amount of time on The Eminem Show railing about "sluts" and how conniving they are. The track "Superman", while superlatively well written in some points, is really disturbing if taken at face value. He's basically explaining to women in general that they should not pursue a relationship with him because he's too jealous and angry. Now, there's an extent to which the song functions as self-deprecation and an intentional negative example, but also I think he was using sentiments like the one on that record as catharsis for how extremely upset his failed relationship with the love of his life has made him.

Basically this is a guy who married his high school sweetheart, and when that fell bitterly apart, due to the child they had there was no chance for a clean break and by the time he was back on the market, he was one of the biggest stars in the world. Who's he surrounded by? Groupies. People he know don't care about him as a real human being.

I can understand how he got to where he is. I don't think it's a can of just old fashioned misogyny. That said, I think he's being an idiot.

quote:
Eminem's music is contextual and all about him, his life, and the people in it. Mosh seems to be his first song not about him.

Well it's traditional in rap for almost everything to be expressed in the first person, but the vast bulk of his pre-martyr-complex writing was not about himself per se, but written in character as "Slim Shady", a total asshole who doesn't have to care about the results of any of his actions.

----

quote:
originally posted by Fuslim
[qb]Make up your mind. Either we should read the lyrics or we shouldn't read the lyrics.

No you misunderstand me, I wasn't saying you shouldn't do anything - I was asking why you posted those lyrics. I was wondering if the selections were meant to particularly illustrate a given take on his overall character or what. I know on message boards every question looks like a sarcastic challenge, but I really was just wondering if you were trying to demonstrate something specific that I wasn't picking up on.

quote:
'm anti-Backstreet and Ricky Martin
with instincts to kill N'Sync, don't get me started
These fuckin brats can't sing and Britney's garbage
What's this bitch retarded? Gimme back my sixteen dollars

Heh, see I'd think sentiments like these would gain him some points in some quarters... ^_^

quote:
originally posted by Hephaestion
[quote]originally posted by Johnny Cash
Come on you've gotta listen unto me lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be
[/quote]

Hey man, did you catch that last line? This is something people often mistake with Eminem, too. Not that he doesn't have a habit of saying stuff that actually is unconscionable, but in general the most outrageously wrong ideas are being presented as outrageously wrong ideas.

That's clearly the case with this Johnny Cash track, too. So yeah, that is a good example.

Heck look at the end of Knoxville girl:

quote:
I called for me a handkerchief to blind me aching head rolled
and tumbled the whole night through a troubles was for
me like flames of hell around my bed and in my eyes could they
carried me down to Knoxville and they put me in a cell
my friends all tried to get me out but none could go
my bail I'm here to waste me life away down in this dirty old jail
because I murdered that Knoxville girl the girl I loved so well

The whole thing is a cautionary tale. Don't wind up like "me," says the fictional narrator.

--

quote:
originally posted by Hephaestion
All that being said, JD, you can view Mather's past homophobic lyrics as ironic all you want, but I don't care.

Um, I respect that you don't care what I think, but my point wasn't to let you know just as a window into my mind. I'm trying to explain that there's more to these words than may appear on the surface.

quote:
Words, especially ones that verbalize hatred, can cause harm, and a lot of people can't even understand **sarcasm**, let alone irony.

You know, I do agree with that, but I don't agree then that it behooves an artist to dumb down to the lowest possible level of audience comprehension.

quote:
I'm sure all the 10-25 year-olds who idolize this pig just cover their mouths, roll their eyes, and chortle at his oh-so-droll sense of humour. (See, now that is sarcasm.) Fuckin' right they don't, not most of them. They view as their "hero" validating the idea that "faggots" are worthless pieces of crap, and that women are nothing more than "bitches" to be used and abused for pleasure.

Apart from the first bit which I think misses my point (satire frequently serves causes other than comedy), I have to admit you have a point when it comes to audience reaction. However, I'm ambivalent about what I think the upshot of that is. In general, I don't think that people derive their morals or views directly from their popular icons. I think that people who already have prejudices might see support where they want to, but I doubt that your average joe is going to be cruising along like "Oh yeah men and women are totally equal and everything oh but hey let's check out what all this eminem fuss is about.. oh word? women are soulsucking monsters? phew, good thing eminem warned me about th-* oh look a shiny thing..!"

quote:
And while some people might think one stinking video excuses all his past pieces of bigoted, filthy shit, I don't.

I don't think this video changes anything in the past either. I think that it's a mistake to interpret his past work as "pieces of bigoted, filthy shit" however.

There's a sequence of events that led to the Marshall Mathers LP, which is the only album that contains direct vitriol against gays. But the album was, for the most part, a concept record written to live up to the expectations of critics who thought he was anti-gay on his first record - which he wasn't. So he was like "That was not homophobia. If you want to hear some homophobic lyrics, I will write some for you. Then you will know the difference."

And he did. Unfortunately it resulted in a TERRIBLE album, with only two and a half good songs. (The Way I Am, Stan and Kim - Kim counts as half because it's only good in a slasher movie kinda way)

quote:
To me he's still a **punk** with a smart mouth, and if he got within arm's reach of me without all his thugs to protect his sissy ass, I'd show him some "homo love" up close and personal.

I think it says a lot that you're calling him "punk" and "sissy". Those are words which just like his unfortunate favourite ("faggot") basically denote "weakling", and yet have been colloquially re-applied to denigrate homosexuals. It's not exactly in good taste to use them, knowing that, but there's a big difference between poor taste and hate speech.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
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posted 30 October 2004 11:53 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jesse I'm younger than you and own a pre-release copy of "My Name Is". I'm the converted, you don't have to convince me.

"Superman" is allegedly directed toward Brittany Murphy. I'm guessing some drama on the 8 Mile set led to that.

While the first person may get a lot of use in hip hop, most of Eminem's work is very autobiographical. When I listen to Pharcyde I don't get the notion that event x caused song y, and they certainly don't tip off the listener that this is the case. Heck, even 50 Cent. I know he was shot like 9 times, but I don't know if he likes his mom or not.

I remember explaining that Slim Shady was a character around the Guilty Conscience era. It was confusing because that song also held a reference to a real life assault by Dr.Dre against Dee Barnes.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
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Babbler # 7131

posted 30 October 2004 11:55 PM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Socrates:
It is absolutely untrue that all rappers are mysoginist or bigoted. All you see on Much is the over commercialized crap, the rap equivalent of Britney Spears.

This is kinda true, although it does range from the rap equivalent of Radiohead (let's say that's Outkast) on up from there.

quote:
Rap is a noble and revolutionary musical current which has been co-opted by the establishment in much the same way as Punk.

Okay that's kinda true and kinda not. The thing is, rap developed as something fun to do at parties, and distinguish DJs. Old school rap is pretty much straight up goofiness, and any socially significant content is incidental.

I'm just pointing that out because sometimes the myth that rap was forged in the fires of social responsibilty creates the illusion of an onus for all rappers to be political all the time or they're failing. Not because it isn't a good thing when rappers have a conscience.

quote:
The "Old School" rappers are rapping about respecting women, loving your brother regardless or sexual orientation and living and fighting smart. Basically the exact opposite of mainstream rappers.

Man... I only wish that were so.

quote:
Check out Dead Prez,

Dead Prez are virulently anti-gay. Without a trace of irony.

quote:
Public Enemy

I'm not going to say PE weren't progressive, but they weren't exactly rapping about loving your brother regardless of sexual orientation:

quote:
originally posted by Chuck D - Meet The G That Killed Me
Man to man
I don't know if they can
From what I know
The parts don't fit
(aw shit)

But really... I'm just being contrary, I guess. I just disagree with some of the finer points. Generally you're on point.


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Dignity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7131

posted 31 October 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for Jesse Dignity   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Puetski Murder:
When I listen to Pharcyde I don't get the notion that event x caused song y, and they certainly don't tip off the listener that this is the case.

Ha, true, but you know what makes that a funny example? On Spike Jonze' recent Director Label DVD, he has a long interview with Fatlip from downtime while filming his first solo video, and Fatlip reveals that his verse in "Oh Shit!" off their first album is a true story.

You know, where he picks up the chick on crenshaw and uh... she turned out to have pretty big feets?

quote:
I remember explaining that Slim Shady was a character around the Guilty Conscience era. It was confusing because that song also held a reference to a real life assault by Dr.Dre against Dee Barnes.

Yeah man... that was a bold move, too. You know you're on top when you're ribbing Dr Dre.

I like the line on The Eminem Show...

quote:
inside of a hall with my framed autographed sunglasses
with Elton John's name, on my drag wall
I'm out the closet, I've been lyin my ass off
All this time me and Dre been fuckin with hats off
(Suck it Marshall!)

HE GOT DR DRE TO SAY "SUCK IT MARSHALL"

that's tough


From: punch a misogynist today | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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Babbler # 5953

posted 31 October 2004 12:06 AM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head
whether you're a fag or lez
Or the homosex, hermaph or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress - hate fags? The answer's "yes"
Homophobic? Nah, you're just heterophobic
Starin at my jeans, watchin my genitals bulgin (Ooh!)
That's my motherfuckin balls, you'd better let go of em
They belong in my scrotum, you'll never get hold of em
Hey, it's me, Versace
Whoops, somebody shot me!
And I was just checkin the mail
Get it? Checkin the 'male'?
How many records you expectin to sell
after your second LP sends you directly to jail?
C'mon!-- Relax guy, I like gay men
Right, Ken? Give me an amen (AAA-men!)
Please Lord, this boy needs Jesus
Heal this child, help us destroy these demons
Oh, and please send me a brand new car
And a prostitute while my wife's sick in the hospital
Preacher preacher, fifth grade teacher
You can't reach me, my mom can't neither
You can't teach me a goddamn thing cause
I watch TV, and Comcast cable
and you ain't able to stop these thoughts
You can't stop me from toppin these charts
And you can't stop me from droppin each March
with a brand new cd for these fuckin retards
Duhhh, and to think, it's just little ol' me
Mr. "Don't Give A Fuck," still won't leave



This is hate speech right?


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 31 October 2004 12:11 AM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. He's not counselling us to go out and commit violent acts against gay people.

It's like TLC's No Scrubs but with much worse language.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
babblerwannabe
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Babbler # 5953

posted 31 October 2004 01:40 AM      Profile for babblerwannabe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well its defininately homophobic to say the least.

[ 31 October 2004: Message edited by: babblerwannabe ]


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 31 October 2004 02:01 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whaat?

JD, you got some references on Dead Prez being homophobic?

I've listened to a lot of their music (Let's get Free and a variety of other stuff downloaded) and all I've ever heard is the dead opposite of anything bigoted.

They're all about bringing people together to fight the power - oppression and racism, capitalism. I'm really shocked to hear that.

Please do provide me with some references, thanks a lot.


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 31 October 2004 04:30 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Blake 3:16


quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
fuslim, could you let us know what CDs or songs those words are taken from? Except for Role Model I don't see any of the tracks listed on the first three Eminem albums or the first D12.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The URL for this lyrics website was given at the top of the lyrics post.

Here it is again

http://www.azlyrics.com/e/eminem.html


Sorry, too many pop up windows. It was going to crash the computer. Please let us know what the songs are.

I did a few quick googles on Dead Prez and homophobia and stuff I thought could be related -- nothing too convincing other than there apparent use of some casual homophobic terms, not at all uncommon in hiphop unofrtunately. Maoist influenced Black nationalism has been pretty homophobic in its language, just as some Maoist outifts have been. Others have recognized the challenge of queer liberation as part of the struggle for socialism. Struggles over sexuality led to many of the redirections and reorientations of post-Mao Maoism. Some groups like Freedom Road took up progressive position while The Revolutionary Communist Party took very backwards ones.

The relationship between the Gay Liberation Front and the Balck panther Party is a fascinating one, but I'm starting to drift drift drift...

Here's an interesting bit on Huey Newton and homophobia: http://www.planetout.com/news/history/archive/huey.html

Edited to add: The "faggot" references in the song Marshall Mathers are primarily directed at run-ins with the very awful Insane Clown Posse, hardly bastions of enlightened sexuality. The song works a lot better when you hear it and when you know what it's about. It's performed in a semi-country style, which shifts the meaning a fair bit.

[ 31 October 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
natural wonder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6912

posted 31 October 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for natural wonder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think you guys are forgetting who Eminem (Marshal Mathers) is. He's a guy who grew up dirt poor in a trailer park in Detroit. So, if he seems a little rough around the edges or at times politically incorrect, why is everyone so shocked? Does he not have a right to speak? Or do you need a university degree to say what's on your mind these days?
From: Vancouver, BC | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6289

posted 31 October 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personal current interest for me, besides Eminem's latest 2 releases is; Lazy Boy's "Underwear Goes Inside the Pants"

LAZY BOY LYRICS

Underwear Goes Inside The Pants


Why is marijuana not legal? Why is marijuana not legal?
It's a natural plant that grows in the dirt.
Do you know what's not natural?
80 year old dudes with hard-ons. That's not natural.
But we got pills for that.
We're dedicating all our medical resources to keeping the old guys erect,
but we're putting people in jail for something that grows in the dirt?

You know we have more prescription drugs now.
Every commercial that comes on TV is a prescription drug ad.
I can't watch TV for four minutes without thinking I have five serious diseases.

Lazy Boy


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
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Babbler # 5546

posted 31 October 2004 08:06 PM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
80 year old dudes with hard-ons. That's not natural.

Apparently these guys don't know any 80-year-olds.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 31 October 2004 08:14 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That bit is hit and miss with me. It riles me up and I feel like talking back.

Like of COURSE Bill Gates got laid in high school, he was rich! He probably had two cheerleader Barbies to take to the prom.

What's wrong with giving the kiddies some extra self esteem? It's better than eating their feelings, which bleeds into the rant on the obesity epidemic.

Hey, maybe I should write one of these ditties.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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Babbler # 2978

posted 31 October 2004 09:06 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks JD for the anti-revisionism. In other babble discussions of hiphop there has been a tendency to say some groups or MCs or DJs were all good while others are bad. Way to crude and not true.

It is unfortunate that Public Enemy have been turned into all things pure and proper. If I had to choose a favourite album or group they'd have a 33 1/3 chance of making it, but they were homophobic -- that quote from Fear Of a Black Planet used to make my main man laugh -- "Oh yeah, well I guess they haven't really tried hard enough"-- and the ultrasonic She Watch Channel Zero is both slamming, Black nationalist, and sexist.

I tend to think hiphop fell apart when the Million Man March didn't really accomplish anything, and the Utopian dimension of the Nation of Islam collapsed. The interesting USian work since then has either been a radical extension of NOI through 5% Nation (WuTang, Lauryn Hill, Nas) or a pretty straight ignorance/rejection of it (Dre, Eminem). Npt quite sure were Jay-Z or Missy fall on this spectrum.

I read Simon Reynold's book on rave recently and he made some interesting points about UK hiphop and, by some extension, Canadian hiphop versus USian hiphop with its ultramacho exclusionist perspectives. UK hiphop has been more multi racial and less pandering and the Carribean influence is much stronger. The influence of reggae and dub and their crossovers have been more pronounced.

I tend to think the hatred towards Eminiem is more his conscious racial identity and soldarizing with Black hiphoppers than misogyny or homophobia. The inclusion Lloyd Banks in the Mosh video is indicative of this strategy, as well as 50's "Yo, Em, you know you're my favoritie white boy" or his come-ons to or murderings of Dr. Dre. And through this dialogue my dearheart has been pointing out that Eminem is not so much misogynist as hating very particular women in his life. His identification with his daughter is also very disturbing to many people.

Edited to add: Thanks to others for the Johnny Cash and other musical comparisons. It is ludicrous to hold one or two schools or styles of music to a certain standard while excusing others. I love Johnny Cash's American Recordings but Delia's Gone is a straight forward description of murdering a woman. I think Nick Cave is brilliant too. Why should we hold them less responsible than hiphop artists?

Also, JD, like the Radiohead Outkast equation. Good work! Do you publish somewhere? Other than babble that is.

[ 31 October 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 31 October 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BLAKE 3:16
I tend to think the hatred towards Eminiem is more his conscious racial identity and soldarizing with Black hiphoppers than misogyny or homophobia. The inclusion Lloyd Banks in the Mosh video is indicative of this strategy, as well as 50's "Yo, Em, you know you're my favoritie white boy" or his come-ons to or murderings of Dr. Dre.

Ahhhh.... this would be the same "50" would it, who doesn't like "fruits" and "homos"... Yes, well, I can see how Mathers' association with 50 Cent helps debunk any notions that he's homophobic...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 31 October 2004 11:27 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please don't put an emphasis on a quote without noting that the emphasis is not in the original.
From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 31 October 2004 11:54 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Eminem is an artist and he is 'evolving'. Give him some credit it's a brilliant video with great lyrics.

God knows art is not meant to be controversial, only clean, sanitized and pro-Bush just the way the neo cons like it.

And what about those other well repected 'misogynists' like Pablo Picasso and Sigmund Freud.

Oh yeah they have degrees and are considered 'high art' so their 'misogyny' is more 'respected' than a rapper dude.

Eminem is an artist and he rocks.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 November 2004 04:31 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BLAKE 3:16:
Please don't put an emphasis on a quote without noting that the emphasis is not in the original.

Okay, point taken. I just assumed that because I was quoting from a post directly above, that most readers could easily see that the original did not have emphasis on these words. But that's fine I can easily provide my own emphasis.

Here's a sampling from the philosophy of 50 Cent, one of the people he is expressing 'solidarity' with:

quote:
"I ain't into faggots. I don't like gay people around me, because I'm not comfortable with what their thoughts are." He then says, " I'm not prejudiced. I just don't go with gay people and kick it - we don't have that much in common."

but just to demonstrate he's broadminded, and it's just "faggots" (not 'lezzies') that he doesn't like, this cultural icon adds:

quote:
"But women who like women, that's cool," he said.

But I have to give 50 Cent credit for at least being honest about his bigotry, rather than trying to play both sides of the street by claiming 'artistic' goals such as 'irony'. He's just an old-fashioned, garden-variety bigot:

quote:
"It's OK to write that I'm prejudiced," the rapper later said. "This is as honest as I could possibly be with you. When people become celebrities they change the way they speak. But my conversation with you is exactly the way I would have a conversation on the street. We refer to gay people as faggots, as homos. It could be disrespectful, but that's the facts."

Y'know, it would be rather refreshing if Mathers and his apologists could at least be this honest.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 November 2004 05:01 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mary123:
Eminem is an artist and he is 'evolving'. Give him some credit it's a brilliant video with great lyrics.

Oh, I'm willing to give him credit when due. It's a fine video but how much of that credit is due to the animators and artists at Guerrilla News Network and director Ian Inaba? I suspect rather a LOT.

quote:
God knows art is not meant to be controversial, only clean, sanitized and pro-Bush just the way the neo cons like it.

Oh, right. If I point out Mathers' homophobia and sexism, I'm a raving Bushite. Of course!! Why couldn't I see that logic before?

quote:
And what about those other well repected 'misogynists' like Pablo Picasso and Sigmund Freud.

Oh yeah they have degrees and are considered 'high art' so their 'misogyny' is more 'respected' than a rapper dude.


Please demonstrate anywhere, ever that I have defended the misogyny of Freud or Picasso. This red herring is garbage, and you know it.

quote:
Eminem is an artist and he rocks.

You are entitled to your opinion. I could just as easily point out "George Wallace was a governor, and he legislated!"

How does that absolve him from criticism? Wallace's opinions "evolved" too, to the point that late in his life he apologized and begged forgiveness from those he had hurt, years before. I look forward to any similar statements from Mathers.

But in the meantime, I refuse to gloss over his public utterances of sexism and homophobia by saying he's just being "ironic". He's making money lots and LOTS of it by promulgating the language used by people who discriminate against, and even beat and kill people in my community. He can shove his "art" up his ass.

Hey Mary didja hear about that bitchin' artist, Schickelgruber? Really outr stuff. You should check it out!

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 01 November 2004 05:23 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Eminem is an artist and he rocks.

I think that sums up the argument from the pro-Eminem side. IOW, you like him, you like rap, and you don't want this moment sullied by the suggestion that anyone who hates women as badly as Marshall Mathers (and about half of the other rappers out there) is never going to be a hero of the progressives.

Sorry to critize your boy, but Eminem releasing Mosh is like Monsanto endowing a high-school scholarship. Sure, it's a good thing in and of itself and it's hard to argue that in and of itself, but in the bigger picture it's a day late and a dollar short. It means shit.

When Mathers, or for that matter Rap/HipHop want to take a serious, adult, mature look at their sexist and homophobic attitudes then the left will still be here. The smart ones won't be holding their breath though.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 01 November 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr&M, what DO you like? You seem to dislike any activism, hiphop, and basically anything you comment on. Is any music OK? What about Marxmen? Or are they too communistic? Do you think anything is good?

As I've done in the past here's links to Larrybob's queer hiphop link page.A lot of the stuff is way underground, but for folks with decent computers/downloading stuff then you should be able to get some of it. Or mailorder. Or whatever.

If you just want to hate the music fine, but please stop bugginh the rest of us. The bulk of the Left has, historically, been so-so on women's rights, anti-racism, and sexual liberation. Malcolm X expressed sexist attitudes. Margaret Sanger was pro-eugenics. The Communist Party kicked out gay memebers. Bil Blaikie is hostile to Quebec selfdetermination. Blah blah blah.

50 Cent is a super macho dude, a kind of Terminator figure. His persona is a caricature of ultramachismo. Doesn't mean In Da Club doesn't rock. If you reead the lyrics you don't think, "Ah, what a potential Spenserian sonnet" or whatever. Oh wait, Spenser oversaw the murder of hundreds of Irish people. Oh dear. Life is complicated. Some, or, even most people are not nice. Be still my beating heart

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: BLAKE 3:16 ]


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 01 November 2004 08:26 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hmmm. First Mary drags out the musty carcasses of Picasso and Freud, saying, in effect, well these guys were mysogynist *too*!!

Now we get a veritable rogues gallery of eeeeevil-doers:

the wonderfully vague "the bulk of the Left" which is charged with the sin of being "so-so on women's rights, anti-racism, and sexual liberation";

Malcolm X, who expressed sexist attitudes (I guess his occassional diatribes against 'whitey' aren't quite bad enough to catelogue);

Margaret Sanger, for promoting eugenics;

The Communist Party, for expelling gays;

Bill Blaikie, because he is "hostile to Quebec self-determination";

a generic "Blah blah blah" just in case anyone thinks there aren't many, many other attrocious people out there.

Did you see anyone here defending any of these attitudes? I didn't.

What I did see, again and again, is arguments excusing, or attempting to deny that assholes like 50 Cent and Marshall Mathers are making a huge amount of money while spouting bigoted filth about women and "faggots".

How long do you think this would be accepted, excused and overlooked if they were talking about "big-nosed hebes" or "monkey-faced niggers"? Would we hear bullshit like, Oh, relax!! It's just a parody!! It's a *character* he's portraying it's the sound of the words, not their *meaning*... don't be such a stick in the mud!

Yeah, right.

I'm not saying Mathers and Mr. Four Bits can't record this kind of crap if they want. But don't try to pass it off to me as mind-blowing "art". I *like* intelligent rap and hip-hop, and there is no need to wallow in the gutter with foul-mouthed bigots to create it.

Oh, and spare me the comparisons to Spencer, too. I don't give a *crap* if "In Da Club" rocks or not. Personally, I thought the National Socialists had the snappiest-looking uniforms going in the 1940s. Doesn't mean I couldn't see the filth behind the thin veneer.

If you can't see what I'm driving at, it's not me that's blind and deaf.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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Babbler # 6125

posted 01 November 2004 09:28 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bush is the supreme misogynist so what's the problem with you neo cons not liking Eminem?

Bush has done nothing but claw back women's rights during his 4 year rule.

"Bush has moved to dismantle federal bureaus that monitor discrimination against women."

"The Bush administration has also objected to UN family-planning and AIDS-prevention programs that offer or merely mention condoms. According to Planned Parenthood, the U.S. even opposed efforts to provide special rehabilitation for female victims of war crimes, because the measure might be construed as offering information about abortion to girls who have been raped. Then there's Bush's expansion of the global gag ruleeven at home. A bill passed by the Republican House would allow health care companies to prevent their doctors from discussing abortion. Here is this decade's version of silence = death."

Bush is the supreme woman hater and you neo cons know it.


You and your extreme fundamentalist religious right all want women to go back to knowing their rightful place in the house and obeying their husband's authority.

Gee I would think Eminem and his 'misogynist music' would be right up the neo cons alley?

misogyny

misogyny

misogyny

It's a great video and you neo cons know it.

Gee when I think 'misogyny' I see Bush and his neo con Christian fundie wingnut buddies.

Funny that.

[ 01 November 2004: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 01 November 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sorry to critize your boy, but Eminem releasing Mosh is like Monsanto endowing a high-school scholarship.

quote:
Doesn't mean In Da Club doesn't rock. If you reead the lyrics you don't think, "Ah, what a potential Spenserian sonnet" or whatever.

This thread is a card. Seriously great quotes. Laughing very hard.

I don't think I like Eminem enough to defend him very much. I'm glad he got off the subject of his drunk bitch mom and slut faced ho bag ex to talk politics, but he probably won't join forces with Rage Against the Machine anytime soon. Fin.
(By the way, nice timing to break up before this election. Why do they have to chintz out like that?)

I will fight to the death anyone who dares to say that Hey Ya wasn't the song of 2004. How can you contradict such an irrefutable fact?


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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Babbler # 2978

posted 01 November 2004 11:02 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rage Against The Machine broke up years ago. Hard to stay up to date when you don't exist.

Don't see M&M can do that without pulling a GG Allin. Mary 123 is absolutely right.

There's a dilaectic to this shit. To quote Walter Benjamin, "Every document of civilization is a document of barbarism". The English language was founded on the repression of millions of people and their culture. The Internet is a US military invention. Do we just say they're bad? If so, stick to your principles, stop speaking English and log off now and forever.

Eminem and 50 Cent DO say mean things about women and queer folks. Nobody's denying this. It's a big difference betwen saying really mean and rude things, and killing tens of thousands of women.

I'd love to har about cool feminist progressive music. I was quite involved in the queercore/riot grrrl world in the mid 90s and would love to know where or who is in a similar camp these days. Suggestions?


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 02 November 2004 01:55 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
This is just too rich...

quote:
originally posted by mary 123":
Bush is the supreme misogynist so what's the problem with you neo cons not liking Eminem?

I see. So anyone who doesn't like, and accept without criticism, the blatherings of a whiny snot like Mathers is a Bush-supporting "neo-con". And then we get:

quote:
Gee I would think Eminem and his 'misogynist music' would be right up the neo cons alley?

misogyny

misogyny

misogyny


I see. Because we're "neocons" and we're "misogynists" that's the reason that we don't like Mathers and we're criticizing him for playing "misogynist music".

Do you even listen to yourself? Where's that damn turnip truck you just rolled off of?

I am the furthest thing from a Bush supporter or "neo con" that you can imagine, but then you're obviously not interested in any inconvenient facts that don't fit your preconceptions and your list of priorities. Equally obviously, in that list of priorities, you don't give a damn if someone's a bigot, as long as their music "rocks".

You would'a loved Jerry Lee Lewis. He sounded *great* who cares if he routinely called every black person from Chuck Berry on down a "nigger"? Jerry Lee knew how ta ROCK!!!

And, if anybody criticized ol' Jerry Lee for his comments, you could always point to people who were 'waaaaay worse than HIM. I mean, that's all you gotta do, right? Show that he's not the worst bigot on the block, and then it's okay, right? 'Coz your boy knows how ta ROCK!

I mean, that's all anybody's been able to do for Mathers point fingers at other people...

As for Mathers' suddenly-discovered "political awareness", I'll reserve judgement. Truthfully, I suspect he's a calculating bandwagon-jumper, especially considering his carefully-timed release of this video.

Did you hear this overblown maschismo bullshit?

quote:
If I get sniped tonight you'll know why, because I told you to fight

puh-LEEEEEEZE!!! Karl Rove is gonna order a "hit" on this piss-ant because of this video? Yeah, right!

And as for any good effects in terms of the election that this petulant brat's video might do? I say the same thing here that I posted over at 365gay.com "The enemy of my enemy is my temporary ally." That's it. That's all. He's got a long way to go before I would ever come close to calling him a friend.

But heeeeeyyyyyy at least he ROCKS, right?!

Fuckin' **spare** me!!!

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 02 November 2004 02:24 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This thread is a card. Seriously great quotes. Laughing very hard.

quote:
I'm glad he got off the subject of his drunk bitch mom and slut faced ho bag ex to talk politics

Right back atcha!

Mary: why did you edit out the part where you called us neo-con Christians? I was looking forward to gettin' all up in yo' grille about it. Also, now I have to go tell my wife that "that lady on the internet" was wrong, and we're apparently not fundamentalist conservative nutjobs, and we don't have to run away to join the 700 Club after all.

ed'd to add: Ooops! My mistake!

quote:
You and your extreme fundamentalist religious right all want women to go back to knowing their rightful place in the house and obeying their husband's authority.

"Honey, sorry to flip-flop on this, but we are in fact fundies. Now give me your watch - there's a clock on the stove, if you get my drift - and get some vittles on the table, pronto! I invited Jesus so don't use the Men in Black II promotional cups, use the Spider-man Big Gulps. And for heaven's sake, put on a little lipstick!"

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
fuslim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5546

posted 02 November 2004 05:18 AM      Profile for fuslim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The English language was founded on the repression of millions of people and their culture.

Huh???

The English language developed out of the trading relationships between the various groups (Anglos, Saxons, Jutes, Celts, etc who inhabited the British Isles. There was some Latin from the Roman occupation.

Later, the Norman conquest added French and a large helping of Latin.

While the bulk of the reason English is widespread is the last to empires have been English speaking, it's also true that the structure of the language makes it easy to absorb words from other languages.

In fact, one could almost say English became widespread because the groups that invaded England brought their contribution to the expansion of the language.


From: Vancouver BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 02 November 2004 01:15 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

SCHMAAAAAARRRRTT!!!

You haff ruined a pehh-fecktly good plan!

[or theory, as the case may be]

[ 02 November 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
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Babbler # 2978

posted 02 November 2004 02:01 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In fact, one could almost say English became widespread because the groups that invaded England brought their contribution to the expansion of the language.


One could also say English became widespread through the genocides of the peoples of the Americas, the slave trade from Africa, the colonization of Asia and the Middle East.


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 02 November 2004 02:23 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Piffle! English became so widespread because England was the pre-eminent naval power for so long, and it supported trade by its own merchants and strangled off trade (as much as possible) by the French, Spanish, etc.

And that's the real power behind any empire, English, Ottoman or American trade.

And with such a panoply of vocabulary to choose from, including words gleaned from other languages from half a world away, it's tragic how such a linguistic genius with such overweening pride as Mr. Mathers finds it necessary to fall back on such overworn phrases as "bitch" or "ho" or "faggot". What's wrong with "strumpet", or "libertine" or "catamite"?

I think there's a whole range of Mr. Mathers' bigotry that he hasn't yet begun to convey with the rich, vibrant verbiage available to him.

Ooooo! I'm all goosebumps! I can't wait!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BLAKE 3:16
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2978

posted 02 November 2004 02:45 PM      Profile for BLAKE 3:16     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We could've avoided killing all those Irish, cause we just were trying to do some trading. That potato famine was just a trade. Crazy Celts!

And I guess those darned Iraqis don't understand, that we just want to trade with them. Those insurgents are just silly I guess, wanting that goofy ol' national sovereignty and control of their own resources.

Ok - is it time for this thread to end?


From: Babylon, Ontario | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 02 November 2004 02:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Heph, to be fair: growing up I was sadly restricted in my use of the word "hoe" to referring to a gardening implement, but thanks to rap, its uses have increased 100%! Now I can use it to describe a woman, whether I hate her or simply want some booty from her. Hey! There's another one! I thought I outgrew my "booties" when I was 2, but not thanks to the marvelous neologistic powers of rap music!

Also, it can be such a pain in the ass to remember wom... er, "ho's" names once you've gotten that sex from them. Why even try to remember their name when you can just call them your "baby's mama"? Hint though: don't do this until after you've had the booty! It's important that you use their real name until you're tired of them and move on to more booty.

Ya, a rich, rich linguistic tapestry rap is.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Puetski Murder
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3790

posted 02 November 2004 03:26 PM      Profile for Puetski Murder     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I used to think that "ho" was the politer form of the *very* cutting and mean "whore". Remember the snack cake Ho-Hos? That probably contributed to my distorted rationale.

Then I discovered that "Ho" is a bleepable word on MTV, and I'm trying to erase all snack-cake related memories from my head.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 02 November 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Too long!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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