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Author Topic: That's No Way For A Lady To Speak!
audra trower williams
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posted 24 July 2001 01:39 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Have you guys heard about this? A song called "Your Revolution", by Sara Jones. It's a response to the sexism in Hip Hop. Of course, when a woman sings about sex, it's obscene, so it has been banned, I think. Check it out.

Full lyrics are here.


From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 July 2001 01:47 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
She got the same punishment that Eminem got. Of course, neither of them should be punished at all, but I don't see a double standard here.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2001 02:00 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm also opposed to censoring either.

But, m'boy, you seem to be saying that there's an equivalence between the two performers' work. On what basis; using what measures?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 24 July 2001 02:17 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only similarity I can see/hear is the crassness of the lyrics.

I don't like hip-hop, but whatever Eminem does, I guess he does it well. The way he meters his phrases is catchy.... I can admit that.

I don't find Jones catchy. I understand what she's trying to get across... but I think there are more enlightened ways of expressing oneself. I don't find her "offensive", I just find that style of music irritating.

Neither of them should be censored however. That's for parents to do. Don't like the CD blaring in your son/daughter's room? Take it away

I don't think it's up to the state to decide what's "appropriate", everyone has their own tastes.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 July 2001 02:27 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That is, indeed, the similarity. Americans seem to be terribly afraid of such language. But the song was not censored because it was by a female artist.

Wanna read more about the FCC's rediculous obscenity guidelines? The full KBOO ruling is here as well.
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/broadcast/obscind.html


I've always found it interesting that the US will censor particular words, but they are less willing to censor ideas. You're allowed to have violent imagery, but you can't use George Carlin's seven words.

In Canada, it often seems to be the other way around.

Example: I was watching a movie on Citytv. In one scene, a character says the word "mother-fucker". They bleeped out "mother" but left in "fucker". The word "fucker" was not deemed offensive, but the idea of a mother-fucker was.

Kinda ludicrous.

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 24 July 2001 04:03 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I disagree that it is the same. Everytime there is a powerful image or powerful words spoken by a woman it becomes an issue.

Look at Madonna's What it feels like for a girl video. I saw the uncut video and didn't see anything that was even near as bad as the images in the average male video. Why is it ok to show women bumping and grinding but god forbid they should be the ones in charge.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 24 July 2001 04:15 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't seen the video in question, so I can't really comment on it. However, I'm curious how some Madonna video is evidence that the song in question is being censored for a different reason than Eminem's song, which is what I was referring to.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 24 July 2001 04:28 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well what I am saying is that female artists are held to a stricter stricter standard than the male artists are. I brought the Madonna video into it for the same reason you brought motherfucker into your arguement to show a point!
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 24 July 2001 05:07 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mediaboy was chuckling over the Canadian standards by bringing up the m*therf*cker reference... Bringing Mrs. Ritchie into the arguement dilutes it.

Keep in mind earthmother, Madonna's marketing team makes sure that a certain percentage of her videos get censored, it's part of her image.

"I like to push buttons"

-Trin.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Athena Dreaming
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posted 24 July 2001 05:58 PM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Perhaps someone here can explain to me how a girl singing "I'm not going to whore for your revolution or fuck you because you're a star" bears any remote resemblance to "I killed my ex-wife because she married another man and that makes her evil."

Censorship is an ugly thing, yeah, but let's not make false comparisons between ANYTHING and some misogynistic dipshit making millions off of songs that glamourize punishing women for not doing what men tell them to do.


From: GTA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 24 July 2001 06:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whew! Yay! Reinforcements!!! I can't argue this through right now because I turn into a pumpkin at 5 -- but AD, the sight of your name on this thread was a bugle call from over the horizon if ever I heard one.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 24 July 2001 06:04 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, obviously using the word "fuck" is the greater sin! To be honest, I can't believe that people seriously listen to any of this stuff.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 24 July 2001 06:55 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes Athena godess to the rescue. Point made --hopefully taken.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 24 July 2001 07:08 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What I see in these lyrics is a woman responding in kind to the entire sexual tyranny of the hiphop "gangsta" craze. Eminem is not the only performer to us lyrics about using and punishing women as a normal way of life. Polite objections to this kind of stuff just don't work. I don't believe in censorship but I have a problem with things that encourage the torture and murder of other human beings and this so-called music seems filled with that type of reference. The woman's song does NOT talk about anything except refusing to be what the men demand in their songs. It is a double standard when a song of objection to being used is considered equal to a song about beating up or killing someone.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 July 2001 11:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I absolutely agree. I can't believe they allow some of that mysogynistic bullshit to be played on the radio, but then when a woman comes along and uses the same language, in the same art medium, in order to make the feminist point that she isn't buying it, suddenly it's obscene. Give me a friggin' break.

Athena, it's been nice to see you again over the last couple of days. Missed your POV.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 25 July 2001 12:08 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Has it been "banned" or have radio and t.v. music vidiots just decided not to touch it?

In either case there's enough examples of the mysogynistic stuff to make banning or not playing the above song ludicrous.

But, the music industry is nothing if not ludicrous.

-----

I remember years ago, a panel discussion featuring the artist "Mitsou" up against an array of jerks. At issue was her then new video that supposedly featured her naked breast in one shot. I got to see the video twice and, frankly, never did see what they were talking about. And, I'm usually pretty observant.

Well, at the end of the day I ended up thinking a lot of "Mitsou" who seemed to be a lot more intelligent than the rest of the panel. She also seemed in control of her career.

They decided that the mix of nudity and music was just not appropriate for "Much Music" I notice on the credits for the show that the executive producer was one "Moses Znaimer". Although, one sees almost everything in Toronto stamped "Executive Producer: Moses Znaimer".

The very next day, sunday at dinner hour I checked out "Fashion Television" ( I collect folding fans and wanted to see which one Carl Largerfeld was using, believe it or don't.) There, bouncing down the fashion runway to the blaring beat of a non descript fahion runway type disco/metal fusion was a bare breasted model. The exective producer of "FT" is, surprise, surprise; one Moses Znaimer.

What's the difference? Same station, same executive producer, and we have nudity combined with music.

The only difference I could discern was that "Mitsou" was in control of her own career, while models are told what to do when.

Besides being all style and no substance Moses is a hypocrite--or too egotistical to take care what he attaches his name to.

The music industry rips off it's artists, it's customers, and throws pap at our ears all the time.

I haven't bought any new music in years, and I won't be anytime soon. The sexism is just one of many good reasons not too give them my money.

WRITTEN BY TOMMY PAINE
EXECUTIVE PRODUCER: MOSES ZNAIMER


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 25 July 2001 02:04 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I haven't heard Sara Jones, but every time I hear a girl saying how great Enema-M is, I want to curdle. Good on Ms. Jones for speaking up and speaking out about the misogynist quacks in hip-hop. And those lyrics are alot cleaner than the stuff that gets up on stage at Toronto open stages...
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Athena Dreaming
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posted 26 July 2001 10:39 AM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks, Michelle.

This discussion has reminded me of something. A friend of mine is a huge Tori Amos fan, and she tells me that she will be releasing an album of cover songs by male artists glorifying male violence against women--only to make the point of how unacceptable this stuff is. I heard one, a cover of Eminem's The Two of Us, and it is so creepy to hear those words coming out of her mouth.

I can link to the lyrics, if anyone's interested.

Although I wish I could say I was surprised to hear that a feminist song got banned.

Does anyone here listen to Sleater-Kinney? If you're looking for an alternative or antidote to misogyny, they're a very feminist indie band from Philie. And there's always Ani DiFranco.


From: GTA | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
denise
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posted 26 July 2001 12:03 PM      Profile for denise   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tommy, I finished reading the credits to your post with the insane urge to post, "SHOW US YOUR TITS!!!"

AD, your previous post was exactly the post I'd been composing in my head as I read this thread. Good on you for getting in there early, and well-said.

Yay Sleater-Kinney. Liz Phair is also really outspoken about bullshit, only she often takes a really cutting satirical or honest viewpoint that many feminists won't touch. Really outspoken.


From: halifax, ns | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
NP
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posted 26 July 2001 12:18 PM      Profile for NP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
HEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYY WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!

While I was impressed with that song... it is a direct ripoff of Gil Scott Herron's "The Revolution will not be televised" circa 1970s.

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Noah Evanchuk ]


From: The city that rhymes with fun | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Liam McCarthy
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posted 26 July 2001 01:02 PM      Profile for Liam McCarthy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can see Detroit from my apartment (it's right across the river from me). I can't stand Eminem or the Insane Clown Posse (although ICP arguably has a little artistic merit). I find it very sad that these three white boys are the big rap acts out of Detroit. Especially when you consider that Detroit proper is approximately 88% black (not that any of these guys aren't from the suburbs). I find their acts to be something of a modern day black face act. They emulate the negative stereotypes of black rappers and accordingly act as a mockery of them (Consciously or not).
From: Windsor, Ont. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 26 July 2001 11:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I remember a few years ago buying a Gillette album because of those two songs that made it big (Mr. Personality and Short Short Man). I just thought they were pretty funny, a good table-turning effort. But you know, when I listened to the whole album, it was REALLY good (I mean if you like that kind of music - I often don't, but I found these tunes pretty catchy).

I found the lyrics to be very feminist in a I'm-not-putting-up-with-your-bullshit-so-don't-even-go-there kind of way. I still listen to it occasionally when I'm in the mood for a bit of a 'tude.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jared
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posted 26 July 2001 11:49 PM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hate to be a know-it-all, but Sleater-Kinney are from Olympia, Washington. And they rock and stuff.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Athena Dreaming
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posted 27 July 2001 09:17 AM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the correction, Jared. Where did I get the idea they were from Philie? Oh well.

Noah, I think it's pretty obvious yeah, but considering how much of popular music these days is "sampling," it's not that surprising, is it?


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Trisha
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posted 27 July 2001 11:24 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, reply songs should be "revised covers" wherever possible. It strengthens the message. More of the girl artists may start doing this kind of reply.
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 27 July 2001 12:58 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Noah, she credits him in the beginning, I believe.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
NP
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posted 27 July 2001 02:13 PM      Profile for NP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As a disclaimer, I wasn't slagging the lyrics... rather I just wanted to pay hommage to Mr. Heron for writing a great protest song. I think it's great when people do creative covers

BTW, anybody here heard the updated version of Solidarity Forever, the one done to a hip hop format?


From: The city that rhymes with fun | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 27 July 2001 04:40 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jared and Athena.. I just noticed you like Sleater-Kinney. So do I. (It's 'cause I'm a child of the "other '70s" )
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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