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Author Topic: White Power Movement's 'Olsen Twins'
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 21 October 2005 06:24 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ABC News:
quote:
Thirteen-year-old twins Lamb and Lynx Gaede have one album out, another on the way, a music video, and lots of fans.

They may remind you another famous pair of singers, the Olsen Twins, and the girls say they like that. But unlike the Olsens, ...[t]hey are white nationalists and use their talents to preach a message of hate.

Known as "Prussian Blue"... the girls from Bakersfield, Calif., have been performing songs about white nationalism before all-white crowds since they were nine.

"We're proud of being white, we want to keep being white," said Lynx. "We want our people to stay white … we don't want to just be, you know, a big muddle. We just want to preserve our race."


I have to go vomit now.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
byzantine
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posted 21 October 2005 06:37 PM      Profile for byzantine        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I want to know what exactly threatens their prospects of staying white. Is pigment catching these days and no one told me?
From: saskatchewan | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 21 October 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suppose there is a possibility they might turn red, actually.

But seriously, it's stories like this that make me wonder if teaching hatred and violence should be considered child abuse. These girls have been mentally disturbed by this racist upbringing.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 21 October 2005 06:51 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, so much for the innocence of youth. Is sterilisation of racists an option?
From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 21 October 2005 08:39 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:
Is sterilisation of racists an option?
Oh why not, it seemed to work on Indians. Check out their interview for something really scary, kids at

Viceland (Warning - racist site)

quote:
What are some of your favorite groups, either current or past?
We really like Avril Lavigne, Evanescence, Three Days Grace, Green Day, AC/DC, and Alison Krauss. For racial groups we like Final War, CutThroat, Saga, Max Resist, Youngland, Brutal Attack, and of course Skrewdriver. But our all-time favorite is Barney the purple dinosaur!

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 21 October 2005 09:07 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nah, they just need to meet a couple of charming Black/Brown/Asian/Semitic etc guys - or grils .

But all in all, a very sicko situation...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 21 October 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I actually first heard about them from The Gawker

And People Say The Press Isn’t Objective

quote:

Sure, some call it dangerous. But others find White Nationalism just fills them with warm fuzzies.


Here's the link to the original ABC story.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 22 October 2005 06:05 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I knew that purple dinosaur was dangerous!
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Yst
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posted 22 October 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Yst     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sketch comedy troop The Whitest Kids U'Know provide an amusing little satirical depiction of this idiotic phenomenon.
From: State of Genderfuck | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 22 October 2005 06:44 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Forcing racism into the head of thirteen year olds is child abuse.

These two have about three years to hold the obligatory press conference denouncing their former white supremacist views.

If they do, they might have a career outside of the white Nazi ghetto. If not, not.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bucanero
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posted 23 October 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for Bucanero     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Nah, they just need to meet a couple of charming Black/Brown/Asian/Semitic etc guys - or grils .

Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, and get poked by a hulking mass of black power... They'll be singing a different tune!


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 October 2005 01:22 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That sounds almost as objectionable as the twins upbringing.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bucanero
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posted 23 October 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for Bucanero     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
That sounds almost as objectionable as the twins upbringing.

Just joking around...... geez.

People like this are meant to be ridiculed. We all know that they're a bunch of nuts, and to keep pointing this out only gives them more attention, which is exactly what they want.

I don't really blame the girls here, just see how braiwashed they are. Their mother obvious prepares them well for interviews.

[ 23 October 2005: Message edited by: Bucanero ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 October 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, um, were kinda sensitive about rape jokes around here.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
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posted 23 October 2005 10:12 AM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bucanero:

Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, and get poked by a hulking mass of black power... They'll be singing a different tune!


what are you saying? this is not even close to funny, it is a racist pro-rape comment. i am deeply disturbed by your statement. this is equally disturbing as the two racist girls. the difference: you are consciously making these statements (probably) not as a 12 year old who has been brainwashed with racist propaganda since birth.


From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 23 October 2005 11:20 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moreover, that stereotype was a murderous one - trumped up charges of rape were a common grounds for lynchings of Black men - a mass phenomenon, not just a quaint story out of a Western.

I do entertain the wish that they will quite voluntarily meet some nice non-Aryan boy ... or gril. Not exactly a statistical improbability in the world.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 23 October 2005 03:43 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The funny part is that actual Aryans are likely to be named things like "Khomeini" or "Ghotbzadeh" or or "Egoyan" something like that. Whoever the Aryans were, they got pretty diluted by whoever was living in Europe before they got there. So diluted they became white.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 23 October 2005 10:23 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bucanero, rape and racism = not acceptable. This is your first and only warning.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
RP.
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posted 23 October 2005 10:29 PM      Profile for RP.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it just me, or was Bucanero actually describing a situation where the girls lose their inhibitions, and have a life-changing sexual encounter, whereafter they are no longer racists? That's how I read it (albeit super crude).
From: I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 23 October 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RP.:
Is it just me, or was Bucanero actually describing a situation where the girls lose their inhibitions, and have a life-changing sexual encounter, whereafter they are no longer racists? That's how I read it (albeit super crude).

I agree it's very crude but, in the poster's defence, I really didn't read the post as referring to rape.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 23 October 2005 11:44 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, please... It was clearly referring to date rape or, at the very least, non-consensual sex while unable to offer meaningful consent ("wasted at a party"). Sexist, racist and completely unhelpful to the subject at hand.
From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 23 October 2005 11:51 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Oh, please... It was clearly referring to date rape or, at the very least, non-consensual sex while unable to offer meaningful consent ("wasted at a party"). Sexist, racist and completely unhelpful to the subject at hand.

Sexist, racist and unhelpful, absolutely. But if it was clearly referring to date rape or non-consensual sex, then how come it wasn't clear to me and at least one other poster?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 23 October 2005 11:57 PM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an outrage! Having pride in ones race should be outlawed!
From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 23 October 2005 11:59 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know you're being facetious but I'd like to respond anyway. Why on earth would anybody feel "proud" about something over which they have no control? I feel lucky to be Canadian but it doesn't make me proud.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 12:00 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bucanero:

Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, ......

This is RACIST and VERY offensive! Will you please delete it from this discussion board.

:mad


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 12:03 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oops. I'm so sorry. I completely misunderstood your post.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 12:05 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had a whole big post planned for eastcoast on the matter of racial pride and racism, but I realized that I'd be well, feeding something I don't want to feed.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 24 October 2005 12:07 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
This is an outrage! Having pride in ones race should be outlawed!

Can you please clarify this remark. It sounds like a sarcastic denunciation of those who are expressing concerns about the twins' white power message.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 12:08 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

Can you please clarify this remark. It sounds like a sarcastic denunciation of those who are expressing concerns about the twins' white power message.


I don't think so anymore. I made the same assumption based on the first post but I changed my mind with the second. I think the poster was saying sincerely that white pride should be outlawed.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Train:

I don't think so anymore. I made the same assumption based on the first post but I changed my mind with the second. I think the poster was saying sincerely that white pride should be outlawed.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


Not just "white" pride - but, taking pride in ones race, *whatever* race that may be, seems vulgar and morally cretinous to me.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 12:34 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know I'm just a small town girl, but are there other varieties of racial pride?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 12:35 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Train:
I know I'm just a small town girl, but are there other varieties of racial pride?

Yes!


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:24 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In North America?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 01:29 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Train:
In North America?

Yes. And all over the world as well.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:32 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Yes. And all over the world as well.

Can you give me an example? I genuinely want to know. I guess I'm asking more if there are brown groups that look down on whites rather than white/white or brown/brown racism.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can honestly say that racism is a constant no matter where you go. However, the effects of racism differ in magnitude.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 01:39 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Train:

Can you give me an example? I genuinely want to know. I guess I'm asking more if there are brown groups that look down on whites rather than white/white or brown/brown racism.


Have you EVER left Vancouver ? You may want to consider it.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:42 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Have you EVER left Vancouver ? You may want to consider it.

Actually, I just got here. Could you just answer the question?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:43 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
I can honestly say that racism is a constant no matter where you go. However, the effects of racism differ in magnitude.

I understand that but what I'm asking is are there "pride" movements for every race?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 01:47 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes, and no. In India, for instance, there is a large (ironically) Aryan pride movement that even ran the country until recently. We had an apologist for it on this board for a while.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:50 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What about North America? Is there a non-white pride group that seeks to keep its race "clean" from whites?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 01:52 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There was a movement (largely now nonexistent) called the Black Panthers which had a mixed reputation, but I don't believe that there's anything in North America on the scale of the white pride movements. However, I would caution you and say that that's partly a function of the number of whites in North America, which is large.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:53 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I forgot about the Black Panthers. They were pretty radical, weren't they? Any other groups or was eastcoast just being arrogant, rude and ill-informed? For what it's worth, I just moved here (Vancouver) and this city seems extremely well integrated.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 24 October 2005 01:54 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
White pride is an easy to swallow name for something that is evil.

I know too much about the tactics these people use. They know what they're doing, and they're using the nihilistic wavelengths of youth-culture to promote their message.

For every 100 kids that can accept that these people ain't people there is that 1 that will listen to these monsters' messages.

That's what really scares me. That 1 kid who uses hate as a justification for everything in life.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 24 October 2005 02:01 AM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sexist, racist and unhelpful, absolutely. But if it was clearly referring to date rape or non-consensual sex, then how come it wasn't clear to me and at least one other poster?

Because you're dense? Getting 'poked' by a 'hulking mass of black power' - while wasted, no less. Yup, sounds like a sexist, racist, pro-rape comment to me! And if we've misinterpreted his crude, disgusting comment Bucanero can come back and apologize for failing to realize the ugly connotations of his post.


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eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 02:04 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here in the U.S virtually every ethnic group has a fill-in-the-blank-ethnic pride day march. Walk into any indie-record shop and you'll see t-shirts with:

black pride, mexican pride etc type messages on them.

It's as socially divisive as it is morally repugnant!


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:04 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin:
Because you're dense? Getting 'poked' by a 'hulking mass of black power' - while wasted, no less. Yup, sounds like a sexist, racist, pro-rape comment to me! And if we've misinterpreted his crude, disgusting comment Bucanero can come back and apologize for failing to realize the ugly connotations of his post.

That's a pretty rude introduction to this thread. For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape." Maybe you're dense?

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:06 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Here in the U.S virtually every ethnic group has a fill-in-the-blank-ethnic pride day march. Walk into any indie-record shop and you'll see t-shirts with:

black pride, mexican pride etc type messages on them.

It's as socially divisive as it is morally repugnant!


I think there's a difference between wearing a "proud to [fill in a race]" t-shirt and advocating racial purity.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 02:06 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
black pride, mexican pride etc type messages on them.

It's as socially divisive as it is morally repugnant!


No, it's self-esteed affirmative action for marginalized groups.

After a point I agree it is silly. But if it is correcting for a previously denigrated identity, then it is a worthwhile endeavour.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:08 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
eastcoast appears to have some funny bunny ideas about morality. I'm referring to the thread on legalizing prostitution.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 02:10 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's a pretty rude introduction to this thread. For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape."
No, you're right, it doesn't---it's merely a crude description of the sexual act. The getting wasted part, however, implies the end of volition in the girls, which turns the sexual act into rape. The reference to a black man being responsible to this plays on very well-known and harmful stereotypes of black men.

It's possible that Bucanero didn't realize this, but that's why he was warned, not banned.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 02:14 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
No, it's self-esteed affirmative action for marginalized groups.

After a point I agree it is silly. But if it is correcting for a previously denigrated identity, then it is a worthwhile endeavour.


That's utter PC non-sense! Racial pride is just another term for racial bigotry. It's ALWAYS wrong no matter who propagates it.

I would be ABSOLUTLEY embarrassed to be seen in public with ANYONE that had a "black pride" or "white pride" or "yellow pride" t-shirt on.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:19 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
No, you're right, it doesn't---it's merely a crude description of the sexual act.

Agreed. Very crude.

quote:
The getting wasted part, however, implies the end of volition in the girls, which turns the sexual act into rape.

Not necessarily. I think some posters are reading more into this than the words warranted. Surely you don't think that whenever a woman is impaired by alcohol, she loses all capacity for reason and consent? Because if this were the case, then we'd have an awfully large numer of rapists around. In fact, if this were the case, then my husband must be a rapist because I've definitely had too much to drink and then fooled around with him.

quote:
The reference to a black man being responsible to this plays on very well-known and harmful stereotypes of black men.

But, let's be honest, that's not the stereotype that was being referred to, is it?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:21 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:

That's utter PC non-sense! Racial pride is just another term for racial bigotry. It's ALWAYS wrong no matter who propagates it.

I would be ABSOLUTLEY embarrassed to be seen in public with ANYONE that had a "black pride" or "white pride" or "yellow pride" t-shirt on.


So I take it you're against affirmative action, then?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 24 October 2005 02:28 AM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's a pretty rude introduction to this thread. For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape." Maybe you're dense?

Nope, it's the poking, in combination with the being wasted that makes it rape.

And sorry about the rudeness - I really try not to be - but I have little patience for the kind of crap Bucanero sees as funny and any sort of attempted explanation for it.


From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 24 October 2005 02:30 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, "wasted" usually implies total impairment not merely tipsifying. I agree that it would be the wrong reading if it merely meant "getting somewhat drunk", but it doesn't usually mean that. But I don't want to turn this into yet another rape flamewar thread.

Like I said Bucanero may not have meant it and that's why he got a warning and not a banning.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
shaolin
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posted 24 October 2005 02:39 AM      Profile for shaolin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, sorry, I'm going to stop derailing this thread as well. Just one last thing:

quote:
Not necessarily. I think some posters are reading more into this than the words warranted. Surely you don't think that whenever a woman is impaired by alcohol, she loses all capacity for reason and consent? Because if this were the case, then we'd have an awfully large numer of rapists around. In fact, if this were the case, then my husband must be a rapist because I've definitely had too much to drink and then fooled around with him.

Sexual assault or rape occurs when the victim is unable to give consent. Under Canadian law, consent is deemed to be not obtained if, among other things, "the complainant is incapable of consenting to the activity, i.e. blacked out, impaired by alcohol or narcotics, unconscious, sleeping." I'm pretty sure being 'wasted' would be included here.


From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:45 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin:
Yeah, sorry, I'm going to stop derailing this thread as well. Just one last thing:

Sexual assault or rape occurs when the victim is unable to give consent. Under Canadian law, consent is deemed to be not obtained if, among other things, "the complainant is incapable of consenting to the activity, i.e. blacked out, impaired by alcohol or narcotics, unconscious, sleeping." I'm pretty sure being 'wasted' would be included here.


I don't think that's clear at all. Wasted can be just drunk. It doesn't imply unconsciousness. And I certainly don't think the poster jokingly referred to a man "poking" a sleeping woman.

Added: "Impaired by alcohol" could mean had a glass of beer. In those circumstances, is all sex to be classified as rape?

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 02:47 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shaolin:

Nope, it's the poking, in combination with the being wasted that makes it rape.

And sorry about the rudeness - I really try not to be - but I have little patience for the kind of crap Bucanero sees as funny and any sort of attempted explanation for it.


I guess it comes down to what the definition of wasted is. I agree that it wasn't terribly funny.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Vicious
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posted 24 October 2005 04:50 AM      Profile for The Vicious     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Pride? Well it's pridefull isn't it? Loud and obnoxious in some cases. Out right embarrassing when a bunch of leathermen march down the street on pride day and one must assure straight freinds that such people are usually confined to that dank bar with the 'Tool Required' sign.

But being pridefull of ethnicity seems to be the issue here. I think we can allow ourselves an appreciation of our heritage quite simply, but to consider that a reason of superiority is what is racist.
I feel some pride in being Irish, I know that people a lot like myself in basic appearence and temperment have survived millenia and hailed from a rather lovely part of the earth and there is comfort in that. Is that rascist?
No, because i don't use that as justification to descriminate others as to the worth of thier person.

It is unfortunate radical racist groups have hijacked the meaning of ethnic pride by a fashion. We're all entitled to have some joy for our respective heritages, even germans, despite passed sins.

Those aformentioned trollops are part of a very sad bunch of people, and will probably remain so. Don't get worked up about it untill they actually cause some shit.


From: Calgary, wishing I was back in Ontario | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 24 October 2005 05:30 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Vicious:

Pride? Well it's pridefull isn't it? Loud and obnoxious in some cases. Out right embarrassing when a bunch of leathermen march down the street on pride day and one must assure straight freinds that such people are usually confined to that dank bar with the 'Tool Required' sign.



[drift]

What's to be embarrassed about? I don't require straights to "reassure" me over the actions of, let's say, soccer hooligans or drunken St. Paddy's Day marchers in New York. (For while there *may* be gay soccer hooligans, we can rest assured they've kept the homos out of the NYC St. Paddy's Day parade.) I don't think the actions of a few hets are indicative of all straights, so why should they think a few "outrageous" queers have any reflection on you? Obviously you're more in the "subdued and embarrassed" group than the "loud and proud" one.

[/drift]

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 24 October 2005 05:44 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Vicious:
Pride? Well it's pridefull isn't it? Loud and obnoxious in some cases. Out right embarrassing when a bunch of leathermen march down the street on pride day and one must assure straight freinds that such people are usually confined to that dank bar with the 'Tool Required' sign.

It is beyond me why some gay people are so very ashamed of the leathermen. Yes, critics of gay people latch onto the leather image (and drag queens, usually) as evidence of our 'decadence.' But the gay community is not something that's first and foremost about PR; it's supposed to be something that supports gay people, isn't it?

Likewise, it is puzzling to me why one would keep str8 friends who need to be thusly reassured. But then, I suppose it's only natural that the prissy tend to hang out with each other, regardless of sexual orientation.

Edited to add: I was busy posting and as soon as I did, there appeared your message, Heph. Great minds and all that.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Vicious
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posted 24 October 2005 07:09 AM      Profile for The Vicious     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

[drift]

What's to be embarrassed about? I don't require straights to "reassure" me over the actions of, let's say, soccer hooligans or drunken St. Paddy's Day marchers in New York. (For while there *may* be gay soccer hooligans, we can rest assured they've kept the homos out of the NYC St. Paddy's Day parade.) I don't think the actions of a few hets are indicative of all straights, so why should they think a few "outrageous" queers have any reflection on you? Obviously you're more in the "subdued and embarrassed" group than the "loud and proud" one.

[/drift]


You really need to take that shit less seriously. Can't you detect humour? The matter is ethnic/racial, i try to start off with a little laugh.

And really, you wanna tell your parents and aquantences "Yeah, I love to wear assless chaps to boyztown, those are my homies." Being queer doesn't mean I have to wear a rhinestone covered thong down 17th, but that's something for another thread.

And that Whitest Kids U Know site is fucking funny. Thanks for the link Yst.


From: Calgary, wishing I was back in Ontario | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 24 October 2005 07:28 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Vicious:

You really need to take that shit less seriously. Can't you detect humour? The matter is ethnic/racial, i try to start off with a little laugh.



Sometimes it's tough to tell in a text-based format. That's why and and were invented.

quote:
And really, you wanna tell your parents and aquantences "Yeah, I love to wear assless chaps to boyztown, those are my homies." Being queer doesn't mean I have to wear a rhinestone covered thong down 17th, but that's something for another thread.


Well, having never gone to a Pride March with my parents... (see how that works?) But anyway, while I personally don't care to wear assless chaps (I could never compete with Martin Arendt!), I am also not ashamed or embarrassed by those who do. And any of my friends/acquaintances who are ashamed or embarrassed, I tell to (a) reconsider attending Pride parades, and (b) stop being such a friggin' stick-in-the-mud prude.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 24 October 2005 07:42 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
This is an outrage! Having pride in ones race should be outlawed!

Until the late 19th century, there was no such category as a "white" race. There were various groups of Europeans and people of European descent, most of whom had spent most of their histories slaughtering those of the other European groups(and half the time, members of their own).

"Whiteness" was really invented in North America(and the U.S. in particular)in order to get various groups of European immigrants, who had not arrived in the new world with any inherent prejudices against non-Europeans, to take up the hatreds held by the northern European Protestants who controlled the economic and political system the other European immigrants would need to fit into.

That's why it's absurd to talk about "white pride".


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Southlander
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posted 24 October 2005 07:51 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I used to wonder about this. I moved to Australia with my family when I was 17, and landed in a small country town. I soon realised that being proud of your country (or your race)is often built on running someone else's country (or race)down. (It also applies to religions, but thats another thread).
But is it always? Can you have pride in yourself without thinking youre better than someone else?
The only way is perhaps to be proud of where you have come from, or that compared to yourself before you're better than you could be.
Does this then imply that you have to be ditching your self previously, cos if you've always been the best that you can be, there's nothing to be proud of? Vis it was expected, so it's not anything special?
Any comments?

From: New Zealand | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 24 October 2005 08:21 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Here in the U.S virtually every ethnic group has a fill-in-the-blank-ethnic pride day march. Walk into any indie-record shop and you'll see t-shirts with: black pride, mexican pride etc type messages on them. It's as socially divisive as it is morally repngnant!
Too bad. Get over it.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 24 October 2005 08:23 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
I would be ABSOLUTLEY embarrassed to be seen in public with ANYONE that had a "black pride" ..t-shirt on.
Good, because they would be embarassed to be seen with you.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 24 October 2005 09:26 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Makwa, the full quote was:
quote:
I would be ABSOLUTLEY embarrassed to be seen in public with ANYONE that had a "black pride" or "white pride" or "yellow pride" t-shirt on.

Sounds a bit different that way, doesn't it?

From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
brebis noire
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posted 24 October 2005 09:30 AM      Profile for brebis noire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Southlander:
But is it always? Can you have pride in yourself without thinking youre better than someone else?
The only way is perhaps to be proud of where you have come from, or that compared to yourself before you're better than you could be.

I found 'Acadian pride' in northern New Brunswick to be really touching. The people were almost without exception genuinely friendly and open to visitors. Their pride was based on their ability to throw rousing parties, play great music, and just get together and making a lot of noise - as well as a sense of having survived historical adversity in a very real way. The Acadian flag was flying at just about every house. Their friendliness is a credit to themselves and an attraction for visitors.


From: Quebec | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
cco
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posted 24 October 2005 10:08 AM      Profile for cco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
There was a movement (largely now nonexistent) called the Black Panthers which had a mixed reputation, but I don't believe that there's anything in North America on the scale of the white pride movements. However, I would caution you and say that that's partly a function of the number of whites in North America, which is large.

I would hesitate to describe the Black Panthers as a black-supremacist organization (though there was certainly an undercurrent of this among some individual members). The Panthers were inspired by Marxist/Maoist teachings and worked with a lot of white-dominated leftist groups like SDS during the Vietnam War. The Nation of Islam, which teaches that whites are inherently evil, is probably a better example.


From: Montréal | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 11:44 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Good, because they would be embarassed to be seen with you.

Why don't you quote my entire post instead of editing it?

Bigoted troll.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: eastcoast ]


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 11:48 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
(For while there *may* be gay soccer hooligans, we can rest assured they've kept the homos out of the NYC St. Paddy's Day parade.)

Not for the Colombus Day parade.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
No, it's self-esteed affirmative action for marginalized groups.

After a point I agree it is silly. But if it is correcting for a previously denigrated identity, then it is a worthwhile endeavour.


And to add, white pride should more honestly be called educationally and emotionally challenged pride day.

To equate "White pride" with "Gay pride", or "Black Pride" is ridiculous and insulting, and in its own way racist ... "Black pride", "Gay pride" and other such pride groups do not attempt to instill pride in their superiority like "White pride" groups do ... instead these other pride groups try to instill pride of equality, not superiority.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 01:51 PM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:


To equate "White pride" with "Gay pride", or "Black Pride" is ridiculous and insulting, and in its own way racist ... "Black pride", "Gay pride" and other such pride groups do not attempt to instill pride in their superiority like "White pride" groups do ... instead these other pride groups try to instill pride of equality, not superiority.



You obviously haven't listened to the Nation of Islam spew their hatred and racial bigotry.

REAL self-esteem is derived from REAL accomplishment, not from slogans on t-shirts or silly parades up Main Street.

Taking excesssive pride in ones race or sexual preference is offensive no matter what race or sexual preference you are. Anyone with legitimate self-esteem and a real sense of inner security doesn't feel the need to participate in such divisive and childish antics.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 01:54 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
"Black pride", "Gay pride" and other such pride groups do not attempt to instill pride in their superiority like "White pride" groups do ... instead these other pride groups try to instill pride of equality, not superiority.

I agree with you, No Yards. You could add Mad Pride and Fat Pride to that list. The word pride is an ironic boot to the term white pride but the true meaning of pride in this context is that it's okay to be black, yellow, fat, mad, whatever. Pride of equality. That's exactly right.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2005 04:17 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:

You obviously haven't listened to the Nation of Islam spew their hatred and racial bigotry.


So you consider them the same as the white pride group? Could be, as I've never been to either a white pride parade, or a Nation of Islam pride parade ...still, links to support your assertion would be nice.

quote:

REAL self-esteem is derived from REAL accomplishment, not from slogans on t-shirts or silly parades up Main Street.


You're talking about personal pride in accomplishments, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand except to point out what we are *not* talking about.

quote:

Taking excessive pride in ones race or sexual preference is offensive no matter what race or sexual preference you are. Anyone with legitimate self-esteem and a real sense of inner security doesn't feel the need to participate in such divisive and childish antics.

I agree totally with your statement ... what I don't agree with, and what should be clear to anyone that thinks about it for a second is that most "pride parades" have nothing to do with "excessive pride", but instead what they are doing is a way to forward an agenda of equality, not superiority.

If it embarrasses you to hang out with a group of blacks, gays, or whatever that are trying to promote the fact they are equal citizens, then I suggest it is YOU, not the "priders" that have the problem. You don't seem to grasp the usage of the term "pride" in the case of mainstream pride groups.

If black and gay priders were out promoting their superiority then you'd have a case ... they aren't, you don't, nuff said.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2005 04:36 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In other white power news; you know you've won when the KKK supports the enemy

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 04:47 PM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Yards -

Let me state for the record: If ANY racial group (including the white Olsen twin singers or the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam or La Rasa) promotes the superiority of one race over another it's not ONLY a crass & vulgar social statement but I consider it deeply immoral.

To pretend that the racial group that you happen to favor is benign and therefore "fighting for equality" while the groups you oppose are "preaching superiority" is the height of rhetorical deceit. No amount of rationilization will alter the abject hypocrisy of you're double standard.

nuff said.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 24 October 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by byzantine:
I want to know what exactly threatens their prospects of staying white. Is pigment catching these days and no one told me?

I suppose they'd start to get "coloured" if they spent too much time out in the sun... but long sleeves/pants and sunscreen are generally preferred over racial supremacy for that.

From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 24 October 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
No Yards -

To pretend that the racial group that you happen to favor is benign and therefore "fighting for equality" while the groups you oppose are "preaching superiority" is the height of rhetorical deceit. No amount of rationilization will alter the abject hypocrisy of you're double standard.

nuff said.


And which racial group pray tell am I claiming are "fighting for equality", but are instead "preaching superiority"? Oh, and please provide me these facts without reaching into the "height of rhetorical deceit" as I supposedly have done!

Look, if you have some information on how the Gay pride movement, or the Black pride movement is preaching superiority, then by all means present it ... or maybe you are one of those rare folks who have somehow missed the fact that white pride groups preach direct and unabashed racial superiority? If so, then I must apologize for misjudging your ignorance as willful deceit, please send me a PM and I will forward you links to "white power" groups so you can break your bonds of ignorance.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 05:45 PM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No Yards -

We seem to be arguing in cirlces here. I've made several statements on this thread that more than summarize my views on this subject. If you want to know them, scroll back and read them. To continue on would only be an excercise in redundancy.

For the last time:

I detest any/all demonstrations of racial pride, WHATEVER the race. To me it's just another form of bigotry masquerading as something positive.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 24 October 2005 06:25 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
No Yards -

We seem to be arguing in cirlces here. I've made several statements on this thread that more than summarize my views on this subject. If you want to know them, scroll back and read them. To continue on would only be an excercise in redundancy.

For the last time:

I detest any/all demonstrations of racial pride, WHATEVER the race. To me it's just another form of bigotry masquerading as something positive.


I think you are conflating race and ethnicity. "Black" pride isn't about having dark skin, it's a cultural thing. I agree that it is sometimes taken too far, but it's not always racial supremacy. When not taken to extremes, it's just people celebrating their culture... no different than a Scot wearing a kilt and eating haggis on Burns day.

It's unfortunate that "black" culture does not have a unique name that they can call their own, that does not refer to colour or continents...


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 24 October 2005 06:30 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Which blacks are you referring to, Gir? Anyway, Eastcoast doesn't understand the difference (or thinks it's immaterial) when traditionally disenfranchised people express solidarity by celebrating their culture as opposed to when members of a dominant culture or race overtly or covertly, claim its superiority.

Just a hunch here, but she probably opposes affirmative action as well. Let me just say...~yawn~...to that.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 24 October 2005 06:32 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Eastcoast quote: You obviously haven't listened to the Nation of Islam spew their hatred and racial bigotry.

REAL self-esteem is derived from REAL accomplishment, not from slogans on t-shirts or silly parades up Main Street.

Taking excesssive pride in ones race or sexual preference is offensive no matter what race or sexual preference you are. Anyone with legitimate self-esteem and a real sense of inner security doesn't feel the need to participate in such divisive and childish antics.

No Yards is completely on the money! This is not about self-esteem! The minority groups are celebrating, and asserting their equality rights, they're not attacking or aiming to undermine anyone else.

"white power" groups seek to overtly and often forcibly exclude all others, and even some whites who disagree with their racial purity, evil, disgusting agenda!

What these kids are promoting is sick, dangerous,and absolutely should never have been tolerated.

What is going on in America? Kids who will be idolized by youth to racial purification?

What ever happened to America's refusal to accept this kind of Nazist belief systems? This is not about pride, it's about 'racial exclusivity', and is really troubling.

Where's the American outrage that such an entire culture is being financed and spread to the population?


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 24 October 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Just a hunch here, but she probably opposes affirmative action as well. Let me just say...~yawn~...to that.


Do you mind not posting what you *think* my views are ?

I could support a form of "affirmative-action" as long as it was class based (i.e scholarships for poor people)and not race based as that would violate the equal protection clause in our constitution. They used to have race-based Affirmative-Action for college here in California until it was outlawed a few years ago. The group that got the short end of the stick were the Asian students. Given this country's history of discrimination against Japanese Americans I felt that was doubly offensive.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
knuckles
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posted 24 October 2005 08:53 PM      Profile for knuckles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
eastcoast, so when James Brown sang "i'm black and I'm proud," he really meant "I'm better than whitey"?
From: US | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ranngyn
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posted 24 October 2005 09:16 PM      Profile for Ranngyn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, I've been told "You're too white for me."

Also, "that's very white of you.", and not in a pleasant way.

What, there's people of colour, and then there's us man from gladdish "whites"?

Racism sucks, period.


From: A lee shore | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranngyn:
Also, "that's very white of you.", and not in a pleasant way.

Is there a nicer way to say it?


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Ranngyn
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posted 24 October 2005 09:27 PM      Profile for Ranngyn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Say what?
From: A lee shore | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 09:29 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranngyn:
Say what?

Please demonstrate the correct use of the phrase "That's very white of you."


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Ranngyn
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posted 24 October 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for Ranngyn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's not a phrase I would ever use.
From: A lee shore | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 09:40 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranngyn:
It's not a phrase I would ever use.

But you said you've heard it used unpleasantly. So I'm asking you how could it be pleasantly said, by anybody.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ranngyn
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posted 24 October 2005 09:42 PM      Profile for Ranngyn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Feeling a bit nit picky are you? If you can think of a way, let me know.
From: A lee shore | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranngyn:
Feeling a bit nit picky are you? If you can think of a way, let me know.

I don't think it's nit picky. I'm genuinely curious. You said you've heard the phrase used unpleasantly. That view implies that there's a pleasant way to say it. I don't agree. There is no way to say it or mean it that isn't horribly racist. Ball's in your court.


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Ranngyn
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posted 24 October 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Ranngyn        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not playing. Take your silly game elsewhere.
From: A lee shore | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 24 October 2005 09:49 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ranngyn:
I'm not playing. Take your silly game elsewhere.

I can't. Nobody else has ever implied that such a phrase could ever be appropriate. But if you don't want to answer, that's fine too.


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molly-tov
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posted 24 October 2005 11:54 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
this is a sad thread.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: molly-tov ]


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equalizer
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posted 25 October 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mollytov quote:

eastcoat and train: i really question your motivations and intentions considering the lengths you have gone to defend to the original post. i have one sentiment after reading both of your arguments/words: scary.

These two, eascoast and train work as a team. Train pretends 'to try to sound sympathetic', but fails miserably, while setting eastcoast up with his next RIGHT WING JAB!

On nearly every thread, since they both joined this month, they play off one another in the exact same way.

Agree with Mollytov, these two are not on the level. They are just baiting and antagonizing in every thread.

For all we know, they could be 'one' person. There's some really odd banter between these two, as though one knows exactly what to say to set the other one off on a rant. Like leading... And, except for one thread, they're always, always playing off one another. Like a two for one post!

If they were perfect strangers, how did they get to be so cozy with one another (or one alone) right from the get go?

Sounds like a very bad game of baiting!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 25 October 2005 12:38 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First of all, I`m a "her" and not a "him". Secondly, trying to stop women from a life of prostitution is not "right wing" - it's PRO-WOMAN and lastly, I joined Babble about 48 hours ago and I don't know Train from Adam.
From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 25 October 2005 12:42 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by equalizer:
Mollytov quote:

eastcoat and train: i really question your motivations and intentions considering the lengths you have gone to defend to the original post. i have one sentiment after reading both of your arguments/words: scary.

These two, eascoast and train work as a team. Train pretends 'to try to sound sympathetic', but fails miserably, while setting eastcoast up with his next RIGHT WING JAB!

On nearly every thread, since they both joined this month, they play off one another in the exact same way.

Agree with Mollytov, these two are not on the level. They are just baiting and antagonizing in every thread.

For all we know, they could be 'one' person. There's some really odd banter between these two, as though one knows exactly what to say to set the other one off on a rant. Like leading... And, except for one thread, they're always, always playing off one another. Like a two for one post!

If they were perfect strangers, how did they get to be so cozy with one another (or one alone) right from the get go?

Sounds like a very bad game of baiting!


You're delusional. And your post is mean. Please edit it. I have nothing to do with eastcoast. Check with the board mod if you need to. But, in the meantime, please retract your absurd allegations.

Added: I don't "pretend" to "try" to sound "sympathetic" and your statement doesn't make any sense anyway.

Added: I wasn't "defending" the offending post. I was merely pointing out that people's interpretations of it were illogical. If that's scary to you ...

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 25 October 2005 12:48 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There you go folks, they both proved that point quite nicely!

Why, this may be the Gaedes twins?

At least the Bobsies!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 25 October 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by equalizer:
There you go folks, they both proved that point quite nicely!

Why, this may be the Gaedes twins?

At least the Bobsies!


No, the only thing we proved is that you're an idiot. I dare you -- ask the moderator. And then come back and apologize.


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eastcoast
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posted 25 October 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Train is speaking the truth.
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molly-tov
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posted 25 October 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
wrong again.

quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Here in the U.S virtually every ethnic group has a fill-in-the-blank-ethnic pride day march. Walk into any indie-record shop and you'll see t-shirts with:
black pride, mexican pride etc type messages on them.
It's as socially divisive as it is morally repugnant!

quote:
Originally posted by Train:

For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape." Maybe you're dense?

quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:

That's utter PC non-sense! Racial pride is just another term for racial bigotry. It's ALWAYS wrong no matter who propagates it.
I would be ABSOLUTLEY embarrassed to be seen in public with ANYONE that had a "black pride" or "white pride" or "yellow pride" t-shirt on.

quote:
Originally posted by Train:

I don't think that's clear at all. Wasted can be just drunk. It doesn't implyunconsciousness. And I certainly don't think the poster jokingly referred to a man "poking" a sleeping woman.
Added: "Impaired by alcohol" could mean had a glass of beer. In those circumstances, is all sex to be classified as rape?

quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:

You obviously haven't listened to the Nation of Islam spew their hatred and racial bigotry.
REAL self-esteem is derived from REAL accomplishment, not from slogans on t-shirts or silly parades up Main Street.
Taking excesssive pride in ones race or sexual preference is offensive no matter what race or sexual preference you are. Anyone with legitimate self-esteem and a real sense of inner security doesn't feel the need to participate in such divisive and childish antics.

quote:
Originally posted by Train:
I agree with you, No Yards. You could add Mad Pride and Fat Pride to that list. The word pride is an ironic boot to the term white pride but the true meaning of pride in this context is that it's okay to be black, yellow, fat, mad, whatever. Pride of equality. That's exactly right.

quote:
Originally posted by eastcoast:
Let me state for the record: If ANY racial group (including the white Olsen twin singers or the Black Panthers or the Nation of Islam or La Rasa) promotes the superiority of one race over another it's not ONLY a crass & vulgar social statement but I consider it deeply immoral.
To pretend that the racial group that you happen to favor is benign and therefore "fighting for equality" while the groups you oppose are "preaching superiority" is the height of rhetorical deceit. No amount of rationilization will alter the abject hypocrisy of you're double standard.
nuff said.

quote:
Originally posted by Train:
No, the only thing we proved is that you're an idiot. I dare you -- ask the moderator. And then come back and apologize.

quote:
Originally posted by Train:
You both are making fools out of yourselves.
Added: mollytov, you've cut and pasted some quotes by myself and eastcoast. What exactly do you feel you have proved by this little exercise? My assessment stands: mollytov and equalizer are morons.

uhm ya, scary.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: molly-tov ]


From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 25 October 2005 01:07 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Train quote: No, the only thing we proved is that you're an idiot. I dare you -- ask the moderator. And then come back and apologize.

Funny how 'we' proved it, that's an odd thing now isn't it?

You really do seem to speak as one voice.


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 25 October 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mollytov quote: uhm ya, scary.

Absolutely agree with your astute assessment! As one poster pointed out previously,if these are women defending women's rights,

Friends of womankind, who needs enemies!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 25 October 2005 09:43 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
mollytov and equalizer, there's only one way to find out for sure. So why don't you take it? Ask the moderator to check our IPs. You both are making fools out of yourselves.

Added: mollytov, you've cut and pasted some quotes by myself and eastcoast. What exactly do you feel you have proved by this little exercise? My assessment stands: mollytov and equalizer are morons.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
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posted 25 October 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i have gone out of my way to back up my statement that the ideas and words that you and eastcoast have chosen in this thread are SCARY to me. i have never said you two are the same person, i do question why you both went to such lengths arguing what you did. i don't appreciate you calling me names, but it doesn't surprise me that you both frequently resort to that.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: molly-tov ]


From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
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posted 25 October 2005 10:23 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by molly-tov:
i have gone out of my way to back up my statement that the ideas and words that you and eastcoast have chosen in this thread are SCARY to me. i have never said you two are the same person, i do question why you both went to such lengths arguing what you did. i don't appreciate you calling me names, but it doesn't surprise me that you both frequently resort to that.

You've gone out of your way, to be sure. You've demonstrated nothing, however. If you're still questioning why I argued that the unfortunate post may have been misinterpreted, wait no longer ...

... I THINK SOME POSTERS MAY HAVE MISINTERPRETED A VERY GROSS AND INSENSITIVE JOKE INTO BEING EVEN WORSE THAN IT WAS INTENDED TO BE. ALTHOUGH THE JOKE WAS DISGUSTING AND OFFENSIVE TO BOTH WOMEN AND BLACKS, IT DID NOT APPEAR TO BE CONDONING RAPE, AS SOME POSTERS SUGGESTED THAT IT DID ...

Feel better, now? Good. Let's give it a rest then, shall we?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
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posted 25 October 2005 11:36 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
you are wrong again train! i have demonstrated the ugly nature of your comments and of eastcoast. i have expressed that i found your comments scary. you can try and dismiss/silence my point of view as much as you'd like. but you just keep proving my initial point by being hostile, rude and mean. your tone is really inappropriate and when you capitalize your letters it is interpreted as screaming/yelling. also: i disagree with you!
From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 26 October 2005 12:37 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Train quote: mollytov and equalizer are morons.
Train quote: No, the only thing we proved is that you're an idiot.
Train quote: mollytov and equalizer are morons.

Eastcoast and Train are again speaking as 'one' voice, by Train saying “we” proved...,

And you have proven where one of you is, the other one is instantly and in unison…creating a kind of bizarre banter - very odd given the time of night and the number of threads out there!

You have been using nons-stop name-calling to defend your indefensible 'anti-women' remarks! Your continued name calling is unacceptable.

When you make remarks such as you have done, people have a right to question both your motives and your sincerity when it comes to race equality and women's rights.

Previous warning to eastcoast and train: By audra trower Williams, posted 24 October 2005 01:04 PM
Take it to email, you too.

You were warned once by Audra about this kind of banter between the two of you, just yesterday in the feminism » Legalise prostitution: commons committee thread.

Train responded to Audra: By Train, posted 24 October 2005 01:08 PM
Unlikely. (By mouthing her back!)

Audra responded with an ulitimatum. By audra trower Williams, posted 24 October 2005 01:21 PM
Well, take it off of the boards. Or I will.

Train response to Audra: posted 24 October 2005 01:47 PM
I meant that's it unlikely that eastcoast and I would engage in email correspondence. As for taking it off the boards, you have your wish.

Train again answers rather relunctantly, sense of some resentment, but says she will stop!
But not very long after, the two begin again with the same behaviour and two-way banter that they were warned not to do in that same thread. They are doing it again on this thread.

This shows NO respect for Audra or the other babblers in this forum.

In addition they are wielding personal 'insults' galore because others question their sincerity, and their behaviour...this questionable tag team that disrupts the merits of acceptable arguments the principles of this board, on these issues as discussed by others, and debases women’s equality rights!

This is not acceptable on this Board, and I hope Audra reviews your behaviour again.

Your commitment to women's rights, issues, is not likely what most on this board would consider 'pro-women', but sounds more like someone hiding the ideologies of the REAL WOMEN GROUP AGENDA (eastcoast repeatedly refers to REAL women), which, frankly reminds of a Right Wing 'moral' agenda that is not likely liked or wanted on this forum. This applies most definitely to posts by eastcoast.

And the inclinations of train to regard ‘rape’ so cavalierly was troublesome to say the least.

When Bucanero quote: Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, and get poked by a hulking mass of black power... They'll be singing a different tune!

This comment was clearly 'a statement of pure aggression' towards women, degrading them, as we'll teach them a lesson by a 'hulking mass of black power', and was intended to say 'that'll teach them a lesson 'they'll be singing a different tune’!

That is all aggression towards women...This comments infers several things: rape is acceptable in response to racism or anything else, wasted means 'out of her ability to choose' which clearly indicates "rape", it is an indignity and stereotyping of black males, and frankly it is an issue of rape, demeaning of women, and disturbing racism.

This statement is equally as vulgar as the White Supremacy movement itself. Victimization, stereotyping and denigration are not admirable qualities to most on this board, and I would hope most in this country!

Audra also saw this as disturbing comment! Audra warning: Bucanero, rape and racism = not acceptable. This is your first and only warning.

As for Train, the way you addressed the anti-women comment above, which Audra clearly agrees with others, was rape and racism, and is not acceptable,

Train’s response to this was, even after Audra’s warning was: Train quote: in the poster's defence, I really didn't read the post as referring to rape.

Train quote: That's a pretty rude introduction to this thread. For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape." Maybe you're dense?

Train quote: Not necessarily. I think some posters are reading more into this than the words warranted. Surely you don't think that whenever a woman is impaired by alcohol, she loses all capacity for reason and consent? Because if this were the case, then we'd have an awfully large numer of rapists around. In fact, if this were the case, then my husband must be a rapist because I've definitely had too much to drink and then fooled around with him.

Definition of impaired: weakened, reduced cognitive awareness.

Train quote: I don't think that's clear at all. Wasted can be just drunk. It doesn't imply unconsciousness. And I certainly don't think the poster jokingly referred to a man "poking" a sleeping woman.

Definition of drunk: overcome by alchoholic liquor to the point of losing control over one's faculties; intoxicated.

So, if a women is impaired by alcohol, and drunk as you say, and the man knows this, he can take advantage of her, unless of course she's 'unconscious'??? If a woman is impaired, drunk, she cannot give consent, and that IS rape! And decent guy would not attempt to ply a woman with alcohol, and would never take advantage in such a situation. How you deal with your husband is your business, but women in the population should never have their right to full consent compromised...that IS RAPE!

Train quote: I guess it comes down to what the definition of wasted is.

So, the definition of wasted is the issue. The writer has already indicated that the girls would be in a state of 'wasted', didn't say had a social drink! The absolute implications of this remark was to infer that the woman is drunk, or stoned, and incapable of giving informed consent! Wasted means 'gone', incapable of consent...it means rape!

Train quote: I agree with you, No Yards. You could add Mad Pride and Fat Pride to that list. The word pride is an ironic boot to the term white pride but the true meaning of pride in this context is that it's okay to be black, yellow, fat, mad, whatever. Pride of equality. That's exactly right.

You are equating Pride in aiming for equal rights to: it's okay to be black, yellow, fat, mad, whatever? This is bizarre analysis. If it is because you truly don't understand how insensitive your approach to racism is in this thread, that could be forgiven. But, these remarks are stangely strung together, and appear to be demeaning to minorities. That is my opinion of the flipancy, and the complete lack of understanding of this issue by your comments.

Gay Pride is an expression of celebration, and an assertion toward equal rights. White Pride, which is already the race in power, seeks exclusionary, racial purification, that aims to degrade equality rights of all non-whites, and often any whites who would disagree with them.

White Pride/Supremacy is not just about pride of your colour, and the way you said it, it implied that expressing pride in your colour was quite okay. Just about equality. It just sounds like you don’t object to white pride, and don't obviously understand what minority rights are all about!

When the dominant society claims ‘pride’, their intent, and especially this group, is to say, as the kids said themselves about other races: “We don’t want them around”. “We want to stay white", which means, no race mixing, and they have clearly stated that their race is superior. Combining all of this, it’s not okay to have this kind of race/colour pride.

Train's words: white pride but the true meaning of pride in this context is that it's okay to be black, yellow, fat, mad, whatever. Sounds like it's ok to have white pride, reads like it's just colour pride or race pride, or like any other kind of pride...WHICH WHITE PRIDE DEFINITELY IS NOT!

And finally, your continuous use of personal insults and slurs to defend your and eastcoasts’ attitudes, when questioned, towards women, race, and equality, and your continued banter that you were already warned by Audra to stop, indicates that you have no respect for this forum, nor the most fundamental principles this forum is founded on.

I wonder if you accept what Mollytov's and Audra's objections were, but you certainly have snubbed their advice more than once, and been flippant and insulting. And my objections to your questionalbe behaviour were responded to with multiple personal insults, as were Mollytov's. Therefore, your continuous abusive language has only clearly added to the slew of your unacceptable behaviours.



From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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posted 26 October 2005 12:55 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by equalizer:
(eastcoast repeatedly refers to REAL women)

I have no idea what you're talking about. I have NEVER ONCE used the term "REAL women" here let alone use the term repeatedly - I would appreciate it if you would stop lieing about me.


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
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posted 26 October 2005 02:10 AM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
equalizer: what a thoughtful post, i really appreciate your comments. i think you have been very thorough in articulating the issues that i agree are problematic and disturbing. thanks for doing this.
From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
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posted 26 October 2005 02:51 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
FROM THE THREAD: » culture » White Power Movement's 'Olsen Twins'

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 01:51 PM REAL self-esteem is derived from REAL accomplishment, not from slogans on t-shirts or silly parades up Main Street.
Taking excesssive pride in ones race or sexual preference is offensive no matter what race or sexual preference you are. Anyone with legitimate self-esteem and a real sense of inner security doesn't feel the need to participate in such divisive and childish antics.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 04:47 PM To pretend that the racial group that you happen to favor is benign and therefore "fighting for equality" while the groups you oppose are "preaching superiority" is the height of rhetorical deceit. No amount of rationilization will alter the abject hypocrisy of you're double standard.
nuff said.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 07:16 PM I could support a form of "affirmative-action" as long as it was class based (i.e scholarships for poor people) and not race based as that would violate the equal protection clause in our constitution. They used to have race-based Affirmative-Action for college here in California until it was outlawed a few years ago. The group that got the short end of the stick were the Asian students. Given this country's history of discrimination against Japanese Americans I felt that was doubly offensive.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 12:38 AM First of all, I`m a "her" and not a "him". Secondly, trying to stop women from a life of prostitution is not "right wing" - it's PRO-WOMAN

Eastcoast quote: posted 26 October 2005 12:55 AM I have no idea what you're talking about. I have NEVER ONCE used the term "REAL women" here let alone use the term repeatedly - I would appreciate it if you would stop lieing about me.

FROM THE THREAD: » feminism » Legalise prostitution: commons committee

Eastcoast quote: posted 23 October 2005 11:51 PM I think legalizing prostitution will be a huge blow to feminism.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 12:06 AM I'm angry at the legalization of prostitution. No woman deserves such humiliation. We are HUMAN BEINGS and we deserve dignity and respect!

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 12:33 AM What exactly is "dignifying" about fellating total strangers for money ?

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 12:51 AM I asked: "What is dignifying about fellating total strangers for money" There are NO reasons why a woman (at least in the first world) should have to resort to prostitution to make a living. To suggest that there is shows utter contempt for women and their capabilities. And I resent you're patronizing attitude. The subtle misogynistic undertones did NOT go unnoticed.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 01:36 AM I`m not misunderstanding anything. I can think of nothing MORE anti-woman than legislation that makes legal the renting of a womans body for another persons sexual gratification. Any attempt to rationilize this human atrocity as "empowering" is either:
a) Sadly misguided or
b) A misogynist

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 02:07 AM A troll ?? I`m the one standing up for the dignity and REAL empowerment of women and you call *ME* the troll. The misogyny in this forum is palpable.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 02:28 AM Go ahead, call me a "troll" make yourself feel better - I'll continue to work for the REAL empowerment and dignity of women while you busy yourself setting up legal brothels. How noble and selfless of you! I'll be able to sleep at night.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 02:39 AM Anyone, "feminist" or not that supports the disempowerment and sexual exploitation of women (i.e legal prostitution) does NOT have womens best interests at heart.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 03:00 PM deBeauxOs -
Yes, I *do* feel that prostitution is inherently degrading. In my opinion, the answer isn't "decriminalization" to employ a cold war reference, that's tantamount to a theory of containment. The answer is to ERADICATE sex work completely from the underground economy so that NO WOMAN will ever feel compelled to have to subject herself to this humiliation again.

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 10:49 PM Christianity ? What are you talking about ? I've said NOTHING about my religious beliefs on babble. What would motivate you to issue such a baseless allegation ?

Eastcoast quote: posted 24 October 2005 11:26 PM "hate filled" ? - What have I said that can possibly be construed as "hate filled" ? Moreover, it seems all the "mindless preaching" is coming from the pro-prostitution babblers and NOT from me. I think these women DESERVE better than being treated like an inflatable rubber doll.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 01:10 AM Right! It's "lurid" to *describe* sex-for-hire but, it's perfectly okay to legalize it. I think you should re-examine you're priorities.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 08:22 PM Why do you think that ? - Why is the buyer more culpable than the seller ?

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 09:07 PM One can very easily make the opposite argument - If their were no sellers the buyers would not bother. No woman should be subjected to such a horrible existence - the TRULY compassionate thing to do is to work to end this sick practice altogether.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 09:14 PM Here's a new idea! Undercover sting operations and jail time. That might put a chill in the industry.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 09:25 PM I do support free markets. I draw the line at the sexual exploitation of women though. Women are human beings, NOT pieces of meat to be bought and sold on the open market like roast beef. That, to me, is beyond the pale.

Eastcoast quote: deBeauxOs wrote -
"So if the purpose of your volunteer efforts is not for their benefit or in their interest, what exactly do you do for "these women"?
I volunteer my efforts to help prostitutes re-integrate back into the mainstream of society. I do NOT work to help maintain the status quo or lobby for their right to prostitute themselves. No woman deserves such a horrid fate.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 11:22 PM Putting them in jail doesn't give them dignity and respect. I never said it did. Putting them in jail is punishment for breaking the law. The dignity and respect comes later.

Eastcoast quote: posted 25 October 2005 11:51 PM quote: Originally posted by Reason:
The law actually has more to do with religious moralising (in this case) then anything else.

The whole idea behind *the rule of law* is to draw the line between what is moral and what is not - without it there would be moral anarchy. It seems to me we would quickly devolve into a Darwinian rule-of-the-jungle world without an organizing moral principle to base our laws on.

Eastcoast by: posted 26 October 2005 12:36 AM So you don't care for the "rule of law" huh ? Do you have any better suggestions onhow to organize human society ?
What do you think the "peasants" will do if the "politicians" were to stop controling them ? You're quite a thinker!
Let’s let the babblers decide which moral values you best express on prostitution, affirmative action, women’s issues.

http://www.realwomenca.com/papers/prostitution.htm - REAL WOMEN on prostitution.

http://www.realwomenca.com/papers/affirmative_action.htm - REAL WOMEN on affirmative action.


If you never came right out and said the exact words “I SUPPORT THE REAL WOMEN GROUP”, I retract that exact comment. The fact remains that your comments ‘notably’ all on moral issues, seem to identically mirror those of this REAL WOMEN group. And I was left with that exact overwhelming impression when reading your views on these issues. It was probably an impression that you gave most clearly by your statements and your behaviour!

But if you are not a member, your views indicate a string of sympathies that lend suspicion that you either are a member, should be a member, or are a member of a similar group with a different name!

By the way, your statement, referring to the rest of us as:

is incredibly OFFENSIVE! I mean that is way past the line! What an overtly elitist, superiority over others you entertain! In this country we DO NOT refer to ourselves or anyone else as peasants!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 03:00 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Edited for full text:

By the way, your statement, referring to the rest of us as: "what do you think the ‘peasants’ will do if the ‘politicians’ were to stop controlling them"

is incredibly OFFENSIVE! I mean that is way past the line! What an overtly elitist, superiority over others you entertain!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
eastcoast
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Babbler # 10728

posted 26 October 2005 03:06 AM      Profile for eastcoast     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Equalaizer -

I had never even heard of the "real woman" group until you brought it up.

BTW - It wasn't me who used the word "peasant" go back and check it out. It was someone named "ichy smith" who used that term, not me. Why don't you go and get all morally indignant with him. Shall I wait up for you're apology ?

Oh! And I proudly stand by every statement of mine that you quoted.

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: eastcoast ]


From: San Francisco | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 26 October 2005 03:15 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 October 2005 03:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:

Until the late 19th century, there was no such category as a "white" race. There were various groups of Europeans and people of European descent, most of whom had spent most of their histories slaughtering those of the other European groups(and half the time, members of their own).

"Whiteness" was really invented in North America(and the U.S. in particular)in order to get various groups of European immigrants, who had not arrived in the new world with any inherent prejudices against non-Europeans, to take up the hatreds held by the northern European Protestants who controlled the economic and political system the other European immigrants would need to fit into.

That's why it's absurd to talk about "white pride".


Nice point.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 26 October 2005 04:08 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The top two pages I got from googling White Pride.

News results for White Pride - View today's top stories
Pettitte's hometown bursting with pride - San Jose Mercury News - 23 Oct 2005
Venezuelan pride on the line for White Sox manager - Reuters - 22 Oct 2005

Stormfront White Nationalist Community - Discussion Board for ...
Return to Stormfront White Pride World Wide Main Page · Return to Stormfront White Nationalist ... 03-20-2006: WHITE PRIDE WORLD WIDE DAY! - March 21st. ...
www.stormfront.org/ - 96k - 24 Oct 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Stormfront White Pride World Wide
Stormfront is a resource for those courageous men and women fighting to preserve their White Western heritage, ideals and freedom of speech and association.
www.stormfront.org/default.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

White Pride and Racialism in the Yahoo! Directory
Yahoo! reviewed these sites and found them related to White Pride and Racialism.
dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Cultures_and_Groups/White_Pride_and_Racialism/ - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

White Pride World Wide
Racialist discussion board for pro-White activists and anyone else interested in White survival.
www.whitepride.com/ - 1k - Cached - Similar pages

WHITE PRIDE MUSIC Johnny Rebel ARYAN CDS FOR NAZIS, KKK AND ...
Record Label that sells White Power music cds, dvds, nazi flags, shirts, clothing and more.
www.whitepride.net/ - 1k - Cached - Similar pages

White pride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The term White Pride is used interchangeably to depict both the movement of ... While particularly linked with Stormfront (motto: White Pride World Wide), ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_pride - 15k - Cached - Similar pages

SS Enterprises - White Pride, White Power, and WWII Merchandise
SS Enterprises, WHITE PRIDE MERCHANDISE, WHITE POWER MERCHANDISE, SKIN HEAD MERCHANDISE, WHITE POWER CLOTHING MERCHANDISE, SS WWII GERMAN MERCHANDISE, ...
www.ssenterprises.com/ - 3k - Cached - Similar pages

Pandagon: The 'Olsen twins' of the White Pride movement
The 'Olsen twins' of the White Pride movement. Posted by Pam Spaulding at 01:38 PM. "We're proud of being white, we want to keep being white. ...
www.pandagon.net/archives/2005/10/the_olsen_twins.html - 58k - 24 Oct 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

Epinions.com - Stormfront.org: Exploring Racism, Matthew Hale ...
Just because someone belongs to a white pride movement or is associated with ... Use any internet search engine to look up white pride groups and you’ll be ...
www.epinions.com/content_3336544388 - 36k - Cached - Similar pages

American Renaissance News: Feds Rule “White Pride” is “Offensive ...
What does the phrase “White Pride, Country Wide” have to do with Christianity? ... WHEREAS, Justin J. Moritz will use the name “White Pride Country Wide” ...
www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/08/feds_rule_white.php - 146k - Cached - Similar pages

SPLCenter.org: White Pride Worldwide
The white power music industry is helping to drive the internationalization of neo-Nazism.
www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=178 - 46k - Cached - Similar pages

Bad Subjects: White Power, White Pride: The White Separatist ...
-From White Power, White Pride. An October 21st Washington Post article entitled FBI and CIA Suspect Domestic Extremists asserts that federal agents believe ...
bad.eserver.org/reviews/2001/2001-11-24-8.27AM.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages

White Pride and White Guilt
But if we have a right to White pride, then do we not also deserve White guilt? I think "guilt" is the wrong concept, for guilt implies responsibility, ...
library.flawlesslogic.com/pride.htm - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

White Pride T-shirts
Patriotic Flags is an online flag store selling hundreds of 3'x5' flags for only $13.00 postpaid or less. Betsy Rose Flag, Marine Corps Flag, colonial, ...
www.patriotic-flags.com/tshirt/white_pride.htm - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

» White Pride In Google News InsideGoogle » part of the Blog News ...
White Pride In Google News. Google News has added white supremacist news site National Vanguard to its Google News crawl, reports Google Blogoscoped. ...
google.blognewschannel.com/index.php/archives/2005/03/23/white-pride-in-google-news/ - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Cultures & Community, Groups, White Pride and Racialism,
WebRing Ring directory of Cultures & Community, Groups, White Pride and Racialism, , Ku Klux Klan, Opposing Views. Lists WebRings by topic.
dir.webring.com/rw?d=Cultures___Community/Groups/White_Pride_and_Racialism - Similar pages

Fight dem back!
Fighting Race-Hate in Australia and New Zealand. You are currently viewing the archive for the White Pride Coalition of Australia category. ...
www.fightdemback.com/archive/groups/wpca/ - 79k - Cached - Similar pages

White [email protected]
The simple fact is, in America, the phrase white pride has been in use, ... White pride has been used almost exclusively by people we consider unsavory, ...
www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=633453 - 49k - Cached - Similar pages

Poisoning the Web - Don Black: White Pride World Wide ...
One of series of articles from the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) about how various bigots, extremists and hate groups use the Internet to spread their ...
www.adl.org/poisoning_web/black.asp - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

:: Good night white pride! ::
eBags Coupons · ::: whitepride downcounter :::. Proti fašismu, rasismu a sexismu! Good night white pride! :: únor 2005 :: [email protected].
gnwp.czechcore.cz/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


The meaning is actually quite clear. Here in the real world, certain terms are usually used to indicate certain things, whether it's logically consistent or not. Black or Gay pride are used by groups that have been long oppressed, and therefore generally intended to mean only that WE are happy with who we are Now, we are NO Longer afraid to say it out loud -with the exception of the odd Farrakhan or two. But when spoken by majorities who have traditionally been the ones doing the oppressing, it takes on a very different connation. History does count when it comes to language, though meanings can change and individual intent can only be known through context or tone. Personally, I see no reason to take pride in the pinkish-cream complexion I happened to inherit from my Nordic-Celtic ancestors -though I do wish I could still tan in the summer.

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 October 2005 04:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahhh, research and thorough investigation lead to the introduction of useful data to a thread high in vitriol and hyperbole, and low in reasoned discussion.

Saved by the Viking marauders! What next?

Did you know that it was a decendant (a great grand son or something) of Erik the Red who is credited with leading the expedition that appears to be the first European explorations of North America, as described in Norse myths?

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 26 October 2005 04:30 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I can't really say 'thoroughly investigated' as it took me about two minutes to find and collate. And ya, that was one of the reasons I chose the pseudonym, but can take even less credit for that.

More thread drift: you ever notice than 95% of Aryan nation types are actually guys? I wonder if that's a cause or an effect of their illness....or just another side effect?


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 05:21 AM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you were quoting what you now claim to be your quote from another babbler, I will retract that one statement once again,

but the remainder of what I said stands.

And your constant 'moralizing' still sounds too much like that REAL WOMEN GROUP! And to label the babblers as 'PRO-PROSTITUTION' is really not understanding them at all! It's frankly disgusting!

That IS the problem eastcoast, that you CAN stand by every statement you made.

Just so you know, most Canadians really do believe very strongly in equality rights, and it’ll take more than a PLANNED RIGHT WING PROPANDA GROUP TO KICK THAT VALUE SYSTEM OUT OF US!

Which by the way the Conservative Christian Right is preparing to mount a MASSIVE MORALS BASED 'Canadian values' campaign...by none other than Mr. Charles McVety et al, himself...can't wait! Can you?

Imagine,they're going to convince all of us that their values are 'really our values', we've just been fooling ourselves our entire lives!!! Why, they have the real CANADIAN VALUES (even though he's not even from Canada????) Imagine that! )

That should get everybody voting for the CPC's eh?


Many of us don’t live on greed, or total self-interest… we do believe we are required to help those less fortunate than ourselves… we’re just not here purely for our own self-interest…

for that, I’m pretty proud of those Canadians who would no more leave you lying on the street to die, than the next person… and if you were in trouble, there are many who would be there to help you too! They wouldn't sit there and moralize you to death first!

These are the people I'm proud to associate with! And they won't look down on you, judge you, and throw you away, they really will offer you the help!

And that's what the babblers have been trying to tell you all along! to those who really try to help those in trouble.

Let's let the babblers decide if they agree with your moralizing, simplistic views or not?


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 09:37 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
equalizer, do you really think you should be accusing other posters of "moralizing"? For heaven's sake! I read your long tirade above and I find you to be downright shrewish. I'd like to comment on a couple of your more idiotic points, though:

(1) Audra stepped in to stop the public spat on the "hello babble" thread. Audra has said nothing whatsoever about my comments on the "white power" thread. Your post above is deliberately misleading on that point.

(2) I do not have a "cavalier attitude" towards rape and you are disgusting for suggesting that I do. As you know, a poster made an offensive remark. I happened to think it was wildly misinterpreted. That's a difference of opinion, eascoast. We're allowed to have those.

I was completely serious when I suggested it was time to give this a rest. You are wasting my time and yours. I apologize for my share of the insults. In my defence, though, I think you wilfully misunderstood what I was saying and blew it way out of proportion. Furthermore, your moronic analysis of my collusion with eastcoast is boring.

Added: I specifically referred to the word pride as being used as an ironic boot to the white pride movement's usage of it. I did not simply refer to a a long string of white pride, black pride, gay pride, etc. Your post is extremely irritating and inaccurate. You're completely incapable of understanding, which is fine, but please keep your analysis and shrieking to yourself.

[ 26 October 2005: Message edited by: Train ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by equalizer:
Eastcoast and Train are again speaking as 'one' voice, by Train saying “we” proved...

eastcoast and I responded to your dumb post. Rather than saying "I proved and eastcoast proved," I used the more usual wording "we proved."

quote:
And you have proven where one of you is, the other one is instantly and in unison…creating a kind of bizarre banter - very odd given the time of night and the number of threads out there!

I'm not sure how one banters in unison.

quote:
You have been using nons-stop name-calling to defend your indefensible 'anti-women' remarks! Your continued name calling is unacceptable.

No, I've called you names because you're being an idiot.

quote:
When you make remarks such as you have done, people have a right to question both your motives and your sincerity when it comes to race equality and women's rights.

When anybody makes any remarks on a public board, everybody else has a right to debate them. And, for the record, I haven't made any remarks on race equality nor women's rights.

quote:
Previous warning to eastcoast and train: By audra trower Williams, posted 24 October 2005 01:04 PM
Take it to email, you too.

On a completely unrelated matter. We were told to stop bickering on the "hello babble" thread. You are trying to suggest that I was sanctioned on this thread. I was not. You are deceitful.

quote:
You were warned once by Audra about this kind of banter between the two of you, just yesterday in the feminism » Legalise prostitution: commons committee thread.

Again, this was on unrelated matter. I was told to stop bickering publicly. You are deceitful for trying to link this somehow to my supposed anti-woman, anti-black views.

quote:
Train responded to Audra: By Train, posted 24 October 2005 01:08 PM
Unlikely. (By mouthing her back!)

As was clearly set out in the following post, I meant it was "unlikely" that email correspondence would ensue. I clarified.

quote:
Audra responded with an ulitimatum. By audra trower Williams, posted 24 October 2005 01:21 PM
Well, take it off of the boards. Or I will.

Train response to Audra: posted 24 October 2005 01:47 PM
I meant that's it unlikely that eastcoast and I would engage in email correspondence. As for taking it off the boards, you have your wish.

Train again answers rather relunctantly, sense of some resentment, but says she will stop!


My "reluctance" and my "sense of resentment" are entirely your creation. Why are you pontificating to the board about my state of mind with every post? Don't be such a fool.

quote:
But not very long after, the two begin again with the same behaviour and two-way banter that they were warned not to do in that same thread. They are doing it again on this thread.

This shows NO respect for Audra or the other babblers in this forum.


No, what it shows is that eastcoast and I fundamentally disagree on just about every point. We are united, however, in our laughter at you, equalizer.

quote:
In addition they are wielding personal 'insults' galore because others question their sincerity, and their behaviour...this questionable tag team that disrupts the merits of acceptable arguments the principles of this board, on these issues as discussed by others, and debases women’s equality rights!

I'm wielding personal insults because your behaviour is ridiculous.

quote:
This is not acceptable on this Board, and I hope Audra reviews your behaviour again.

Well, we're all entitled to our wishes. Good luck with that.

quote:
Your commitment to women's rights, issues, is not likely what most on this board would consider 'pro-women',

This is why you're an irritating little shrew. You have NO IDEA what my position is on women's issues. You've entirely imagined my position based on your disagreement with my interpretation of one unfortunate post. You're reckless and you're stupid.

quote:
And the inclinations of train to regard ‘rape’ so cavalierly was troublesome to say the least.

Especially because I didn't do it.

quote:
When Bucanero quote: Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, and get poked by a hulking mass of black power... They'll be singing a different tune!

This comment was clearly 'a statement of pure aggression' towards women, degrading them, as we'll teach them a lesson by a 'hulking mass of black power', and was intended to say 'that'll teach them a lesson 'they'll be singing a different tune’!

That is all aggression towards women...This comments infers several things: rape is acceptable in response to racism or anything else, wasted means 'out of her ability to choose' which clearly indicates "rape", it is an indignity and stereotyping of black males, and frankly it is an issue of rape, demeaning of women, and disturbing racism.

This statement is equally as vulgar as the White Supremacy movement itself. Victimization, stereotyping and denigration are not admirable qualities to most on this board, and I would hope most in this country!


We never got Bucanero to explain what he really meant. And as for whether "poke" equals "rape," that's a matter of interpretation. Ditto whether "wasted" means impaired beyond reason.

quote:
Audra also saw this as disturbing comment! Audra warning: Bucanero, rape and racism = not acceptable. This is your first and only warning.

Nobody's denying that Bucanero's post was offensive and unacceptable. The issue was the interpretation of the post.

quote:
As for Train, the way you addressed the anti-women comment above, which Audra clearly agrees with others, was rape and racism, and is not acceptable,

Well, honey, I don't really care if you find it "acceptable" or not. I wasn't the only poster who didn't jump to the very worst conclusion about Bucanero.

quote:
Train’s response to this was, even after Audra’s warning was: Train quote: in the poster's defence, I really didn't read the post as referring to rape.

And I stand by my statement. I believe "poke" is a rude word for sex, along the lines of "screw." Rape is a different thing altogether. Are you suggesting that all heterosexual intercourse is rape? Because there are some women who feel that way.

quote:
Train quote: That's a pretty rude introduction to this thread. For the record, "poke" doesn't equal "rape." Maybe you're dense?

Out of context, you weasel. I was responding to a poster who asked if I was dense.

quote:
Train quote: Not necessarily. I think some posters are reading more into this than the words warranted. Surely you don't think that whenever a woman is impaired by alcohol, she loses all capacity for reason and consent? Because if this were the case, then we'd have an awfully large numer of rapists around. In fact, if this were the case, then my husband must be a rapist because I've definitely had too much to drink and then fooled around with him.

I don't think anyone answered this question. Does alcohol + sex = rape in every case?

quote:
Definition of impaired: weakened, reduced cognitive awareness.

The issue isn't "impaired." The issue is "wasted."

quote:
Train quote: I don't think that's clear at all. Wasted can be just drunk. It doesn't imply unconsciousness. And I certainly don't think the poster jokingly referred to a man "poking" a sleeping woman.

I stand by this statement too. I don't think that's what Bucanero meant.

quote:
Definition of drunk: overcome by alchoholic liquor to the point of losing control over one's faculties; intoxicated.

So, if a women is impaired by alcohol, and drunk as you say, and the man knows this, he can take advantage of her, unless of course she's 'unconscious'??? If a woman is impaired, drunk, she cannot give consent, and that IS rape!


So, in your estimation, every time my husband and I dined out and shared a bottle of wine with me and then we went home and fooled around, he was actually raping me.

quote:
And decent guy would not attempt to ply a woman with alcohol, and would never take advantage in such a situation. How you deal with your husband is your business, but women in the population should never have their right to full consent compromised...that IS RAPE!

You are a shrew. Not only are you threatened by the notion of drunk consensual sex but you're Carrie Nation too.

quote:
Train quote: I guess it comes down to what the definition of wasted is.

So, the definition of wasted is the issue. The writer has already indicated that the girls would be in a state of 'wasted', didn't say had a social drink! The absolute implications of this remark was to infer that the woman is drunk, or stoned, and incapable of giving informed consent! Wasted means 'gone', incapable of consent...it means rape!


No, it doesn't. See, that's what the argument was about. Wasted doesn't necessarily mean "unconscious." If it did, Bucanero's awful post wouldn't even make sense. Think about it.

I won't bother with the rest of your tiresome post. What you haven't taken out of context, you have deliberately misunderstood. My assessment stands: you're a shrew.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 26 October 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
Well I can't really say 'thoroughly investigated' as it took me about two minutes to find and collate. And ya, that was one of the reasons I chose the pseudonym, but can take even less credit for that.

Erik did found the first settlement in Greenland, as I recall.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To train: open mouth, insert foot!

Train quote: When anybody makes any remarks on a public board, everybody else has a right to debate them. And, for the record, I haven't made any remarks on race equality nor women's rights.

I listed them all, you are in denial, to put it mildly.

Train quote: No, I've called you names because you're being an idiot.

I rest my case, you are a prolific name caller, and that has already been established. You just keep re-enforcing that!

Train quote: On a completely unrelated matter. We were told to stop bickering on the "hello babble" thread. You are trying to suggest that I was sanctioned on this thread. I was not. You are deceitful.

Actually, I didn't know you were told to stop bickering on the "hello babble" thread. I was referring to your warning on » feminism » Legalise prostitution: commons committee thread.

So, you've had two warnings, how interesting.

Train quote: Why are you pontificating to the board about my state of mind with every post? Don't be such a fool.

More name-calling? What an abusive mouth you have! Your responses are clearly punctuated with personal insults! And actually your state of mind is quite worrisome.

Train quote: No, what it shows is that eastcoast and I fundamentally disagree on just about every point. We are united, however, in our laughter at you, equalizer.

Just as I said, you are united! And laughing at others is just exactly what would be expected from you!

Train quote: This is why you're an irritating little shrew. You have NO IDEA what my position is on women's issues. You've entirely imagined my position based on your disagreement with my interpretation of one unfortunate post. You're reckless and you're stupid.

Let the namecalling continue! I hope Audra is paying attention...because that is ALL you DO!

Train quote: Well, honey, I don't really care if you find it "acceptable" or not.

You are beyond reproach, and save the honey for those who can tolerate your condescending dribble!

Train quote: And I stand by my statement. I believe "poke" is a rude word for sex, along the lines of "screw." Rape is a different thing altogether. Are you suggesting that all heterosexual intercourse is rape? Because there are some women who feel that way.

This is bizarre commentary. You are retaliating in a most distasteful way. And this statement is too strange to believe.

Train quote: Out of context, you weasel. I was responding to a poster who asked if I was dense.

How many names do you think you are allowed to call people? Your list of infractions is getting pretty long...keep it up! And frankly the other poster may have had a strong point!

Train quote: So, in your estimation, every time my husband and I dined out and shared a bottle of wine with me and then we went home and fooled around, he was actually raping me.

You obviously don't even know what constitutes a rape, or even what the word 'wasted' means!

Train quote: You are a shrew. Not only are you threatened by the notion of drunk consensual sex but you're Carrie Nation too.

Get a load of this folks, she calls it "drunk consentual sex"???

Train quote: No, it doesn't. See, that's what the argument was about. Wasted doesn't necessarily mean "unconscious." If it did, Bucanero's awful post wouldn't even make sense. Think about it.

Train just proved she not only does not understand what constitutes rape, she defends 'drunk, wasted', unless the person is unconscious?

Thank you train, you made my point for me. You just hung yourself with your beligerent statements! And once again, I would warn you for the last time about the vicious name calling!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8121

posted 26 October 2005 05:10 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i agree that your use of namecalling, train, is really out of control and too disrespectful.
From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7050

posted 26 October 2005 06:04 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey folks...

audra (at) rabble (dot) ca


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trains views on 'consensual sex' are the most disturbing. It's hard to believe anyone can espouse these views.

This is about more than Train's constant abusive name-calling!

Mollytov, this one has a very extreme view of what constitutes rape! And you were right to call her on it, don't let her intimidate, because I totally agreed with your astute assessment that this is a direct affront to women, and it is scary to think someone actually believes these things!

And, that is why I addressed the issue as well. If we allow people to spread this kind of abusive thought towards women, we are setting women's issues back more than 40 years. Not acceptable.

I question whether such commentary should be allowed by this forum, period!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8121

posted 26 October 2005 06:58 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i agree. it just seems so redundent because we have carefully explained many times what exactly is so disturbing and, in turn, are just being (repeatedly) verbally abused.
altering the context and meaning of the initial offensive comment to serve your own agenda (albeit a very bizzare and offensive one) is beyond comprehension. Example:
Quote by Train: "Are you suggesting that all heterosexual intercourse is rape? So, in your estimation, every time my husband and I dined out and shared a bottle of wine with me and then we went home and fooled around, he was actually raping me." i just really have no idea where people get their logic from, or what their motives are. i repeat: scary.
denoucing black pride to somehow equate with white pride is racist.
the repeated verbal attacks are offensive and i have politely asked that to end. but they just keep coming. ironic, too, that train apologizes for vebally attacking us, but then goes on to insult many, many times in the same post!!!
here are some examples of the insults quoted by Train:
"idiotic
shrewish
moronic
You're completely incapable of understanding, which is fine, but please keep your analysis and shrieking to yourself.
dumb
No, I've called you names because you're being an idiot.
fool
We are united, however, in our laughter at you, equalizer.
I'm wielding personal insults because your behaviour is ridiculous.
You're reckless and you're stupid.
This is why you're an irritating little shrew."
amazing that you packed all of those insults in two posts!!!
after this, i don't see why anyone would want to engage with you at all, here or elsewhere.

From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 07:03 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'll indubitably second that!

Mollytov, you have more than adequately summed up the problems with this poster!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8121

posted 26 October 2005 07:08 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i can say the same for you!
so-so-so
solidarity!

From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9504

posted 26 October 2005 07:14 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by equalizer:
Trains views on 'consensual sex' are the most disturbing. It's hard to believe anyone can espouse these views.

This is about more than Train's constant abusive name-calling!

Mollytov, this one has a very extreme view of what constitutes rape! And you were right to call her on it, don't let her intimidate, because I totally agreed with your astute assessment that this is a direct affront to women, and it is scary to think someone actually believes these things!

And, that is why I addressed the issue as well. If we allow people to spread this kind of abusive thought towards women, we are setting women's issues back more than 40 years. Not acceptable.

I question whether such commentary should be allowed by this forum, period!


Painfully re-reading this thread, I find that the differince in opinion on what wasted means (perhaps a geographic thing) is at the heart of the matter. To me wasted means anything over not able to drive. Personally, I am still very lucid, and can remember every embarassing thing I do when wasted. It is a term more in reference to loss of motor skills.

My point, a slang term like wasted is going to be interpretted differently by all. Some will have a very narrow interpretation and limit it to passed out, others will say merely stoned on some weed. Either way, both are right and wrong.

Trying and succesfully baiting Train and eastcoast is a fine display of brinkmanship. You have deliberatly provoked a series of responses all because of what? You do not agree with ones view of "wasted". Worse, you lumped togeather two people that have been clearly at each other's throats for two days now (that shows a fair bit of panache).

Now, if you were to argue your point about what your definition of "wasted" is, as opposed to simply attacking Train, there would be a possibility for understanding of each other's view point. Perhaps Train's definition of "wasted" will change, or perhaps yours will... Either way, the assumption will be taken out of the equation.


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8121

posted 26 October 2005 07:52 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
you selectively (and strategically) choose the points that you focus on. in my experience with you, you misread and misinterpret. this is defnitely another example. i won't bother to repeat (and clarify! my earlier points, but don't bother giving false assessments of my posts.
From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
molly-tov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8121

posted 26 October 2005 07:53 PM      Profile for molly-tov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and maybe check yourself on who is being attacked in this thread.
From: hali | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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Babbler # 6061

posted 26 October 2005 08:26 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
equalizer and molly-tov, you both rock! Reason, read the entire thread. It is not simply a metter of the definition of 'wasted'. I'm surprised at you for that one.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
JohnUK
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10781

posted 26 October 2005 08:41 PM      Profile for JohnUK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Its all a matter of reading versus understanding....

Quite simple really.


From: Glouvestershire UK | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 09:10 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

Painfully re-reading this thread, I find that the differince in opinion on what wasted means (perhaps a geographic thing) is at the heart of the matter. To me wasted means anything over not able to drive. Personally, I am still very lucid, and can remember every embarassing thing I do when wasted. It is a term more in reference to loss of motor skills.

My point, a slang term like wasted is going to be interpretted differently by all. Some will have a very narrow interpretation and limit it to passed out, others will say merely stoned on some weed. Either way, both are right and wrong.

Trying and succesfully baiting Train and eastcoast is a fine display of brinkmanship. You have deliberatly provoked a series of responses all because of what? You do not agree with ones view of "wasted". Worse, you lumped togeather two people that have been clearly at each other's throats for two days now (that shows a fair bit of panache).

Now, if you were to argue your point about what your definition of "wasted" is, as opposed to simply attacking Train, there would be a possibility for understanding of each other's view point. Perhaps Train's definition of "wasted" will change, or perhaps yours will... Either way, the assumption will be taken out of the equation.


Thank you for your understanding, Reason. I've just hit the wall with these two clowns. They deliberately misinterpret what I say or twist it and claim I said something quite different.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 09:16 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to clarify, I'll set out my outrageous (and scary) points of view once again:

(1) I believe it is possible to be both impaired by alcohol and capable of giving consent to sexual activity.

(2) I believe it is possible to be impaired and to have sex without being raped.

(3) I believe the word wasted covers a vast spectrum of conditions.

(4) I believe the word poke refers to sexual intercourse and nothing more, i.e. it is non-judgmental.

(5) My least favourite people in the world are moralizing, pedantic, tiresome windbags.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO COME TO AN AGREEMENT ON THIS SO LET'S ... MOVE ... ON, PLEASE.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 09:20 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by molly-tov:
Example: Quote by Train: "Are you suggesting that all heterosexual intercourse is rape? So, in your estimation, every time my husband and I dined out and shared a bottle of wine with me and then we went home and fooled around, he was actually raping me." i just really have no idea where people get their logic from, or what their motives are. i repeat: scary.

This is a perfect example, all right, only it's of YOU misquoting me. Those statements were not linked together and you are deliberately taking them out of context for some bizarre need of your own. I suggest you grow up or leave this thread alone.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Train
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10748

posted 26 October 2005 09:22 PM      Profile for Train     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As ought to have been perfectly clear, the disagreement went as follows:

- you claim alcohol impairment negates the possibility of sexual consent

- I suggest that can't be true or every non-sober sexual encounter would be rape.

That's all I'm saying. THAT YOU CAN'T GET THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT THROUGH YOUR F%^&*ING SKULL IS THE ONLY THING THAT'S SCARY.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
ToadProphet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10411

posted 26 October 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for ToadProphet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Train:
Just to clarify, I'll set out my outrageous (and scary) points of view once again:

(1) I believe it is possible to be both impaired by alcohol and capable of giving consent to sexual activity.


With someone you just met at, say, a party? Are you sure you want to debate this?

quote:
(3) I believe the word wasted covers a vast spectrum of conditions.

You may want to look it up, I'd bet it means drunk or intoxicated and a few unrelated things. Can you find a credible source where it means otherwise?

quote:
(4) I believe the word poke refers to sexual intercourse and nothing more, i.e. it is non-judgmental.

Between two consenting adults, ok. That isn't what the original comment was referring to.

(5) My least favourite people in the world are moralizing, pedantic, tiresome windbags.

Mine too.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 26 October 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Train and eastcoast are both on a time out right now. It will last a week, at least. I'm going to have to sift through all of their posts and see if it should be permanent.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 10:45 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To reason: I read the entire thread, and by the time I got to Mollytov's quote, this thread had gotten, frankly, very disgusting, and very disturbing about the rape issue for one.

Original Mollytov quote: eastcoat and train: i really question your motivations and intentions considering the lengths you have gone to defend to the original post. i have one sentiment after reading both of your arguments/words: scary.

What you are missing,is that Mollytov edited the comment out, before I responded, but no difference, her assessment of this was right.

this is the view that started the whole thing with Train:

Train quote: No, it doesn't. See, that's what the argument was about. Wasted doesn't necessarily mean "unconscious."
Originally posted by Train: I don't think that's clear at all. Wasted can be just drunk. It doesn't imply unconsciousness. And I certainly don't think the poster jokingly referred to a man "poking" a sleeping woman.

And to call this kind of a post re: Bucanero a joke, give me a break!

Bucanero quote: Wait till these girls get wasted at a party, and get poked by a hulking mass of black power... They'll be singing a different tune!

So if you're implying that this is acceptable view of what constitutes rape (and racism, stereotyping of black males, and aggression towards women)... Train's view, is not my opinion, and never will be. So unless the woman is completely unconscious, it is not rape? This is so far out of line, it's sickening! And, this is not a geographical thing, it's a view of womens' issues that is, as Mollytov said: scary!

If a person gets a man drunk, then robs him blind, and gets away with it, I guess that would be consent? Yeah, get the drunk guy to sign over his house while he's intoxicated, that's consent too? But he's not unconscious, just wasted or drunk, so he consented to this? It works both ways!

So, if a woman is drunk, and incapable of consent, but not 'unconscious' that's okay too? Not to me. So what that is really saying is, if you can get away with it, no problem?

No Reason, on this issue if you are defending Trans view of what constitutes rape goes to unconsciousness, you’ll never get agreement from me. And, these two were playing a very odd bantering game. And, they were on nearly every thread doing this banter back and forth, and it seemed very strange to say the least. And they were reprimanded for twice apparently by Audra.

There were umpteen vicious slurs handed out by Train. Train never even attempted to explain her views, and only uses abuse as a weapon. And, Reason, I did give a definition for wasted and drunk, and even highligted the unconsciousness point, but regardless, Train did not change her views. She did the vicious attacking, and name calling.

If this is a legitimate view of rape, that would set women's issues back more than 40 years! Yeah, to hear anyone, even a woman make such disturbing remarks about rape, yeah it's downright disgusting.

Audra quote: Bucanero, rape and racism = not acceptable. This is your first and only warning.

And, despite Audra's warning on this point, Train still continued with the quotes above.
And, that is precisely where the baiting began, with this extreme view of rape, and that the statement by Bucanero is a joke. Rape/Racism is not a joke!

And this type of conduct explicitly is against the Criminal Code of Canada.

http://www.ualberta.ca/dept/health/public_html/healthinfo/sacan.htm# - consent Under Canadian law, consent is deemed not to be obtained if:
• "the agreement is expressed by the words or conduct of a person other than the complainant", or
• "the complainant is incapable of consenting to the activity, i.e. blacked out, impaired by alcohol or narcotics, unconscious, sleeping"
It is quite clear, for example, that under Canadian law, a person can be convicted of sexual assault if he/she:
• gets a person drunk or stoned to the point where they can't make a decision, in order to obtain sexual activity

http://www.womensweb.ca/violence What is consent? - Under §273.1 of Canada's Criminal Code Consent is not given if: The person is unconscious, drunk, stoned, or sleeping
Choosing to get drunk or stoned is not choosing to be sexually assaulted. §273.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada clearly states that one cannot consent to sexual activity if she/he is "blacked out, impaired by alcohol or narcotics, unconscious, [or] sleeping."

The law says consent is NOT given if the person is "impaired", “drunk”, “stoned”, and no one can say that it would only be rape if the person was unconscious, but to keep making that the cut-off point is disturbing.

And again, Train's persistent and vicious name-calling is unacceptable.


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
equalizer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9687

posted 26 October 2005 11:07 PM      Profile for equalizer        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While I was preparing my last post, Train apparently tried to explain her position. Still,
the abuse is flying:

Train quote: I've just hit the wall with these two clowns. They deliberately misinterpret what I say or twist it and claim I said something quite different.

Train quote: As ought to have been perfectly clear, the disagreement went as follows:
- you claim alcohol impairment negates the possibility of sexual consent

- I suggest that can't be true or every non-sober sexual encounter would be rape.

That's all I'm saying. THAT YOU CAN'T GET THIS SIMPLE CONCEPT THROUGH YOUR F%^&*ING SKULL IS THE ONLY THING THAT'S SCARY.

Besides the continous rage and abuse, she never even once attempted to explain her anti-women 'rape' viewpoints, nor her contention that rape/racism of this kind is a joke... until now, and with a very vicious ending. But she still maintains her position right to the end by saying "I suggest that can't be true or every non-sober sexual encounter would be rape".


Actually, the Criminal Code of Canada answers this very clearly.

Mollytov, you're a brave one, and if any of this upset you...well I hope not. You stood up for what was right, and I AM PROUD OF YOU FOR STICKING TO YOUR GUNS!


From: Land of the free | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 27 October 2005 01:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know Equalizer, I am really having a hard time following your postings. I think use of the quote function would help.

As well, I find, rather than responding pell-mell to a whole series of quotes, one by one, going after each factual error, or each logical falacy (that you percieve) that I have an easier time understanding a person's point of view if they round up their arguement in paragraph form, as whole argument as opposed to bit by bit.

Also this tracing what was, and wasn't said, in blow by blow counterpoints in a post doesn't seem to clarify, but actually confuse. If people want to check the record for contradictions,(especially serial ones) that you seem to want to expose, they can easily go over the record of the thread themselves.

I really haven't been able to follow this, even though I was interested in what you were saying. But tracing it all makes my head hurt.

[ 27 October 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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