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Author Topic: Pope considers return to Latin mass
a lonely worker
Babbler # 9893

posted 26 May 2007 07:23 PM      Profile for a lonely worker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Vatican official, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, confirmed earlier this month that Benedict would soon relax the restrictions on celebrating the Tridentine Mass because of a "new and renewed interest" in the celebration — especially among younger Catholics.

In recent decades, priests could only celebrate the Tridentine Mass with permission from their bishop. Church leaders are anxiously awaiting Benedict's decision, to see how far he will go in easing that rule.

Castrillon Hoyos denied the move represented a "step backward, a regression to times before the reforms." Rather, it was an attempt to give the faithful greater access to a "treasure" of the church.

Other concerns have come from groups involved in Christian-Jewish dialogue, because the Tridentine rite contains prayers that some non-Christians find offensive. By its very nature, the Tridentine liturgy predates the landmark documents from Vatican II on improving relations with Jews and people of other faiths.

Rabbi David Rosen, who is in charge of interfaith relations at the American Jewish Committee, said he wrote to several cardinals in March expressing concern about a prayer for the "unfaithful" in the Mass, as well a prayer used during the church's Holy Week liturgy which had contained references to "perfidious," or faithless, Jews.

He was assured by Cardinal Walter Kasper, who is in charge of the Vatican's relations with Jews, that the Tridentine missal used now doesn't contain the reference to the "perfidious" Jew.

Despite such concerns, Benedict is going ahead with the document, though a date for its release hasn't been announced.

The pope's plans are being welcomed by "traditionalist" Roman Catholics who are still in good standing with Rome. These Catholics simply prefer the Tridentine service over the modern one — and their numbers are reportedly growing, particularly among the young for whom the old Mass is actually new.

"I don't think the pope would be addressing this if there weren't a growing number of people ... an increased interest not just among laity but among clergy," said Michael Dunnigan, the U.S. chairman of Una Voce, an international lay movement that seeks to preserve the Latin liturgy.

There are no global statistics on participation in Tridentine Masses. But in the United States — where demand appears to be higher than in much of Europe — 105 of the 176 Roman Catholic dioceses offer at least one traditional Mass each Sunday, Dunnigan said.

"The New Order became a social celebration rather than a religious celebration," she said one recent Sunday as she put away the white lace scarf she wore over her head.

The pews at the Mass had been full — and more than half the people looked to be under 40.


People praying for protection from "perfidious" Jews, women with their heads covered and angry old fascists preaching intolerance to the young.

I wonder what the Latin word for Taliban is?

From: Anywhere that annoys neo-lib tools | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Babbler # 560

posted 07 June 2007 03:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, really, most mainstream Christian denominations hold that Jesus is "the way, the truth and the light" and that no one comes to the Father except through the Son. In other words, that you must believe in Jesus in order to be saved and to go to heaven. Not all individual Christians believe this, but the churches themselves, as well as their holy scriptures, are pretty clear on the issue.

Sure, there are some churches that don't go out of their way to broadcast that publicly outside their congregations. But certainly it is, and has always been, Catholic doctrine that people who do not believe will not be saved. Whether they say it in Latin or English, and whether they single out Jewish non-believers or not, the fact is, most Christian religions including Catholicism believe that people of other religions will not be "saved" nor have communion with God.

Show me a mainstream Christian denomination without a missionary society. Missionary societies are set up for one overriding reason - to share the "good news" about Jesus to non-believers, especially in countries with significant non-Christian populations.

[ 07 June 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martha (but not Stewart)
Babbler # 12335

posted 07 June 2007 08:53 PM      Profile for Martha (but not Stewart)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
According to article 1260 of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, "Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."
From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Babbler # 9972

posted 07 June 2007 09:19 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't believe in heaven or hell. To put it charitably, I think it’s stupid to believe in those things. But, for just a tiny instant, pretend that, with certainty, it could be proven that there was a heaven and a hell, of the Christian variety, and that many people, but not all people, knew that to be the case.

Would it not be the height of rational behavior for those people who knew that to be the case to proselytize those who did not know that? And, to urgently try to convince the ignorant that they needed to "change their ways" or "accept Christ" or what have you? It would only seem to be the, er.....ah, "Christian" thing to do, no?

Many Xians believe in heaven and hell as though they were as real as the ground they were standing on. So, looking at it from that perspective, it seems natural that they would want others to at least hear that "message".

I have a friend who is very much a lefty but she believes in the Xian God and in heaven and hell. I asked her, "If you truly believe that if a person will burn in hell forever and ever if they don't accept Christ, how can you not be out there trying to convince people to avoid such an awful fate???"

She doesn't have an answer other than, "I don't want to impose my beliefs on others." Christ, even the basest among us would take the effort to pull a person out of the way of a speeding car. Helping someone avoid hell...forever...seems like a bit more important than the avoidance of mere mortal death!!

So, while I think a belief in heaven and hell is irrational, if a person truly believes in heaven and hell and they don't proselytize, that is almost more bizarre.

From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged

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