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Author Topic: Fight for your right to party
Ian the second
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posted 26 June 2001 06:52 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an email I recently got from a friend, Max Silverman. He's concerned that because of the new no-smoking by-law in the city of Toronto prohibiting smoking in all public places except for bars, concert venues are now calling themselves "bars" in order to allow smoking, at the expense of concert goers under the age of 19, who now can't see their favorite bands.
Max is under 19, and not surprisingly, wants to rock. He wants to form a youth coalition to lobby venues to go no-smoking before the 2004 deadline, when all bars go smoke free as well.

This is primarily a Toronto based initiative, so all those in the Toronto City area can email me, Ian Calvert at [email protected], and we can get started soon.

Max himself will not be in Toronto from July 1 - August 15.

P.S. - I invite anyone, Toronto City resident or not, to post ANY suggestions or opinions they might have on this topic.

Thanks!! Ian

I am Max Silverman -------------- [email protected]


There is a new by-law in the city of Toronto that does not allow smoking in a place, except for bars.

The catch, however, is that if a place calls themself a bar, then there can't be anyone under 19 in it. So in essence, a youth can't be in the same place that there is smoking. I support this By-Law, and after talking with Toronto City Councillor Joe Mihevc, I understand (and support) that the by-law will not be opened or changed.

This by-law poses one problem for youth - we can't be in a place (like a concert hall) that allows smoking for the next 3 years.

My proposal to all of you (and the councillors if they can help (especially the Youth Advocate)) is to form a Youth Coalition Against Smoking Facilities whose goal is to convince places (like The Rex, The Warehouse, etc) to go smoke free, so they can entertain Youth audiences.


Max Silverman


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
sean s.
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posted 26 June 2001 06:57 PM      Profile for sean s.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A worthy initiative. Unfortunately I'm not in TO so my opinion doesn't count
From: montreal | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 26 June 2001 07:27 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sean,

Your opinion DOES count, even if you live on the surface of the moon.
Let me be unequivocal in saying that we need to brainstorm and forge ideas. This is tied in with the no-smoking by law debate too, so pipe up if you have any suggestions or comments.
Personally, I think (know) the air in Toronto is bad enough. I support the non-smoking by law, simply because I think any law that helps curb air pollution is progressive, but some people might be a little shy about lobbying bars and concert venues to take away the indoor smoking rights of nicotine addicts. It's a push-pull, give-and-take situation, but someone's got to get involved. Even if you're a smoker!


Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
sean s.
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posted 26 June 2001 08:16 PM      Profile for sean s.   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I completely support any non-smoking law and think they should all be be made even more tough.

We should allocate resources to HELP SMOKERS BECOME NON-SMOKERS, but we should not in any way be gentle with the tobacco industry under the guise of being tolerant of smokers.

Stores that sell cigarettes to minors should be fined extremely heavily, every time. No exceptions.


From: montreal | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 26 June 2001 08:28 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What is wrong with these by-law drafters??? We have a no-smoking by-law in Victoria that had to be modified because it punished smokers but not venues. In Vancouver, they had to scrap theirs because it was unenforceable.

You know, writing clear, workable legislation isn't that hard. It just pisses me off to read that yet another city has passed some dysfunctional by-law. <== Angry Law Geek

One way this could be combatted -- who gets to decide what type of venue a venue is? In other words, does it matter that a place calls itself a "bar" if it isn't one in effect? Is there any legislation defining "bar?"


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Liam McCarthy
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posted 26 June 2001 09:28 PM      Profile for Liam McCarthy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Getting caught up in terms again my lawyerly friend? The same By-Law exists in Windsor and although it initially faced a lot of flack from small business owners, it is now enforced, and it works. The way in which the designation is assigned, is that bar and restaurant owners have to decide whether they wish to be classified as a bar or a restaurant. The effect being that a number of restaurants are now classified as bars (most pubs have gone this route)to ensue that they do not foregoe smoker revenue. While I appreciate the concerns expressed I have to tell you that dining in Windsor is now a much more enjoyable experience. What makes this By Law workable, is that it allows businesses to forego non somker revenue, and does not fight the battle all at once. Eventually we should be looking at smoke free bars as well, but I think that this is only workable as an incremental plan. Maybe a compromise is possible but it surpasses my creativity at this moment.
From: Windsor, Ont. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 26 June 2001 11:48 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's an interesting point. Here in Victoria the thought was better to do it all at once. There were some hold-outs for a year or so, but everyone has pretty-much adjusted at this point. I don't feel good for my smoker-friends who have to go huddle around a doorway, of course, but I'd rather they didn't smoke at all (if I had my druthers).
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 June 2001 10:57 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I thought you should hear from at least one of the sinners, so here ah is -- Lord, be merciful.

Ian says:

quote:
I support the non-smoking by law, simply because I think any law that helps curb air pollution is progressive,

Ian, I agree, which is why I am pressing for a ban on the internal combustion engine. I mean it: I don't drive a car, and I promise anyone who does that every time s/he starts it up s/he is polluting my world much more than I could do in a lifetime of smoking.

A definition of scapegoating: pick on a li'l problem, because facing the big ones might require that you face yourself.

All that said, in some heat, I recognize that decrepit specimens such as I shouldn't really be spoiling the fun of people healthy enough to have it. And besides, I'm polite. So my personal solution to this problem is mild agoraphobia (stay away from most public places). Forgive me, you guys, you're very sweet to worry about me, but like most independent, intelligent adults, I really don't take well to condescension, however well-intended. You can't know. You just can't.

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 27 June 2001 11:00 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ottawa's non-smoking by-law has no exceptions for bars, bingo halls, etc.

I pity anybody who want to open up a cigar club.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 27 June 2001 11:31 AM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I may go off topic temporarily.

Skdadl,

I am also for banning the internal combustion engine. I, like you, live in Toronto and speak from thorough experience of the terribleness of the air. Although it wouldn't come to this, I would kill people if it helped implement the banning of the automobile. How many I'd have to kill, I don't know, but cars kill at least tens of thousands every year from *air pollution alone*.
(I'm well aware of the fact that many people attest to their lives being saved or sustained by the automobile. I don't think that it's just, however, that innocent people who do not continue to drive and pollute the air are among those who suffer the consequences. If it was only drivers suffering, fine, but it isn't.)
Of course, there are other problems, like coal burning power plants, etc. etc. etc. Cars "only" cause 30% of North American air pollution.
I am volunteering with the Sierra Club of Canada in lobbying for Toronto's participation in World Car Free Day in either Sept. or Oct. of this year.
Needless to say, a one-day ban on automobiles (at least downtown) needs City Hall's backing, and after a record number of smog days already this summer, I hope most Toronto residents will agree it would be a welcome change.


Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 27 June 2001 11:57 AM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Instead of just banning us and treating us smokers like criminals, why can't someone come up with a real help to stopping. The methods available out there work for some, but there are some of us who just can't quit no matter how much we want to or how hard we have tried. I myself have tried the 12 methods available and am trying to devise my own plan as nothing worked for more than a few weeks. And don't blame no self control as that is not the problem. They have some real help for drug addicts, why not us?
From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
905er
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posted 27 June 2001 12:09 PM      Profile for 905er     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ex-smoker. Some of my best friends ... etc.

But I've never been able to take smoky bars/restaurants. Feel like shite the next day, whether I've been drinking or not. I've rarely gone out to bars or restaurants in recent years because of this. (Not whining -- just telling.)

Skdadl's right, of course, that this is an issue that pales into insignificance in the greater scheme of things -- but lots of issues are like this. I recently spent some time in California, which is now 2 -3 years into a blanket smoking ban. It was a strange experience to see such a mixed crowd in bar-grills, my favorite places. (Love those bloody 8-oz all-American burgers!) Children, old-timers, hipsters, computer nerds, bookish types. I think the smoking ban has actually helped to bring a more diverse group of people into food/drink establishments. Just my $0.02.

Now outdoor patios, on the other hand, are another matter altogether ...


From: in the middle of a sea of diapers | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 27 June 2001 12:35 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To Trisha, just want to say that I don't think smokers are being treated like criminals. They have a habit, an addiction, just like a lot of people have. But because of the nature of smoking, it can indirectly but substantially adversely effect others who are in close proximity to a smoker.
So the question becomes, "whose responsibility is it to move away? The smoker's, or the non-smoker's?"

As for quitting, I know it can be tough. But I do blame "no self control" as the problem, or the main problem at least. If you want the government to come up with and enforce a cure for your addiction, I suggest that you start lobbying them to ban tobacco altogether.
That's their main leverage point in "the war on drugs", but you can bet that isn't because of interest in public health.
Long jail terms can sometimes, but not always, help get addicts off of hard drugs, and as we know, nicotine is "as addictive as heroin" (although that never made much sense to me, because the two substances aren't ingested in the same way or in the same proportion).
Anyway, if you do want them to ban the sale of tobacco, I suggest you start lobbying them soon, and maybe they'll have done it by the time you're ready to kick the bucket. If not, I suggest you find that 13th method.


Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 June 2001 12:38 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Forgive me, all, for sounding snarky again. (I don't know why I so often sound snarky. I guess that's what the emoticons are for. So kisses and smiles for y'all, no matter what -- )

Trisha, it's so nice to have company! You know what actually does work for me, when I try seriously -- gnawing on red licorice! I know, I know, the problems are obvious (which is why I've never pressed ahead for long with it), but it's at least a short-term solution, for long plane trips, e.g.

And there's a thought, 905er -- it's almost a line out of Casablanca -- We'll always have the patio ...


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 27 June 2001 12:46 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's a difficult issue.

On the one hand, smoking pollutes the air. An industrial polluter is considered a criminal by many, so why not consider smokers criminals? You could argue that an individual smoker doesn't pollute as much as an industrial polluter, but then again the punishment isn't nearly as great (in theory, anyway) as the punishment for an industrial polluter.

On the other hand, it's much easier for a non-smoker to avoid the pollution caused by smokers than it is for an individual to avoid pollution caused by industry.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
905er
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posted 27 June 2001 12:51 PM      Profile for 905er     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Long jail terms can sometimes, but not always, help get addicts off of hard drugs, and as we know, nicotine is "as addictive as heroin"

Umm.... I'm still waiting for that "wink wink, just joking" emoticon. Please don't make me go on another flame rampage.

And mediaboy -- you can't be serious. How does smoking a cigarette compare to the pollution caused by, say, starting up your car -- or riding a bus for that matter. Lawnmowers, barbecues -- throw 'em all in jail. And don't forget about people who turn on the lights in their home -- what's at the other end of that plug? Whoops!! A coal-fired generator.

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: 905er ]


From: in the middle of a sea of diapers | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 27 June 2001 01:05 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mediaboy asked:

"On the one hand, smoking pollutes the air. An industrial polluter is considered a criminal by many, so why not consider smokers criminals?"


Couple reasons. Firstly, the industrial pollution laws were made specifically for air polluters of industrial magnitude. The overall damage to the air caused by smokers is negligable. (I.e. if someone can't bear it, they can evacuate the premises.)
However, it's been proven that people who smoke in the presence of young children or babies are putting them at a significant health risk. That could be recognized as an endangerment to the health of children, or as child abuse or neglect.
Most parents these days, however, are aware (or are becomming aware) of the dangers second hand smoke poses to kids.

Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 27 June 2001 01:20 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
905er,

I was, more or less, just joking. But keep in mind what I was replying to, namely Trisha's frustration with quit-smoking methods, and the implication that "they" come up with a solution.
I was not really being all that sarcastic, really. If a smoker gets herself into that mess, she has to be the one to get herself out of it. No one else can do it for her, short of 1) taking her supply of cigarettes away from her, or 2) taking HER away from her supply of cigarettes, and forceably confining her. Well? What else is there? A new pill to pop? Go for it.


905er:

"Lawnmowers, barbecues -- throw 'em all in jail. And don't forget about people who turn on the lights in their home -- what's at the other end of that plug? Whoops!! A coal-fired generator."


We all need to learn ways of being more energy efficient, for the reasons that energy inefficient methods are more harmful anyway, and they're just plain inefficient, which is bad.
So we're already in a "jail", of sorts in that the vast majority of the urban population of the world are totally accepting and compliant with these uses of power, and will only start to think twice when their loved ones start dying as a direct result of them. I guess this hasn't happened to a large enough extent yet.



Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
denise
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posted 27 June 2001 02:03 PM      Profile for denise   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm a smoker who can simultaneously adore and despise cigarettes. I would be all for a ban on tobacco, because I think it would save a lot of people, and it would force me to quit even if I don't always really deep-down want to.

But...

Until cigarettes are actually illegal, I don't agree with the idea of cutting out all the places where one can smoke. I think most public places should be smoke-free, so as not to punish the non-smokers for our habits. But I still get my hackles up about the idea of *all* public places being smoke-free.

For example, cigars are pretty much forbidden in public places, but in most cities you can still go to a cigar bar if you so choose. (Sucks to all the small-town cigar lovers, huh?)

But suddenly the only place one can smoke cigarettes indoors is one's private residence? How long until apartment buildings implement similar rules on a large scale?

And Ian... have you ever been addicted to cigarettes? Your comments about quitting and addiction seem a mite uninformed, if I'm interpreting properly. You can make comments like "no self control" but do you know what it's like to stay wide awake with nicotine cravings for three days straight? If you don't, I should warn you that your comments might come off a bit condescending.


From: halifax, ns | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 27 June 2001 02:08 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
905er, I can indeed be serious. I notice second-hand tobacco smoke a lot more readily than industrial air pollution. When someone blows noxious, toxic tobacco smoke in my direction it has a far more immediate impact on me than a smokestack in Sudbury.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 27 June 2001 03:57 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Denise: Open up Halifax's first "cigarette bar"!
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
NP
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posted 27 June 2001 04:05 PM      Profile for NP   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Denise, I see your logic there, but only as long as the right to drink alcohol is granted the same rights
From: The city that rhymes with fun | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 27 June 2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You couldn't open up a cigar-bar under Ottawa's anti-smoking by-law. The federal PC Party has regular cigar-nights as a fundraiser, and they've complained that they can't do it anymore.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 June 2001 04:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoever wrote that comment a while back about inmates being able to kick their drug addictions in prisons obviously hasn't been to prison or known someone who has been in prison. You can get it more easily there than you can on the outside.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 27 June 2001 07:30 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Denise,

Yes I have been addicted to cigarettes, although perhaps not as badly as some. (No, I don't know what it's like to stay awake for three days straight nic-fitting).
I never said self-control was easy, in fact I said it was tough. But it DOES come down to an issue of "self control", as anyone who has quit will tell you.
The alternative, that Trish was mentioning, is that someone come up with an easy way out. There isn't one.

To Michelle, I have not been to prison but have been to jail, and yes, I know lots of people who have been.
I made my reasons for the "prison" analogy perfectly clear 7 posts before this one.

Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trisha
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posted 27 June 2001 07:47 PM      Profile for Trisha     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not looking for an easy way out, I'm looking for some help that works. I can't see where putting nicotine into your system by another means is much help. Neither is doping someone up on tranquilizers. I'm attempting to design a program for myself, one of the ones I designed helped a few other people but I failed my own test. Some people have much more severe withdrawal than others, so that part is a big problem. Anyway, I only smoke when alone or with other smokers usually, I keep in away from kids.

I was started smoking by a doctor who thought it was better than putting teens on tranquilizers when my parents died in the 1950's. I intend to never stop quitting until I am through for good.


From: Thunder Bay, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ian the second
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posted 28 June 2001 05:00 PM      Profile for Ian the second   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trisha, I admire your tenacity and patience, and wish you good luck in kicking smoking for good.
You are right that any other form of nicotine absorption is not much help, and I would point out that that includes second hand smoke.
Everyone I've talked to who has quit or is quitting says that being around people who are smoking is often difficult. It's not just because you're seeing people puff, but you're breathing second hand smoke as well.


Ian


From: Toronto City, Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged

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