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Author Topic: O Sharon: Beware the martyr
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 30 March 2002 01:59 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If assassinated, Yasser Arafat really would be an 'enemy' to be reckoned with

By David Hirst in The Guardian

quote:

Sharon, by contrast, continues to espouse a conception of peace entirely at odds with solemn commitments Israel has already entered into, not to mention the broad Arab and international consensus. He and the Israeli right have no interest in a historic compromise that detracts from their maximalist aim, which is to secure and perpetuate control over the whole "Land of Israel". It has long been clear that he is engaged not simply in the suppression of Palestinian violence, but of the whole notion of Palestinian self- determination on any portion of Palestinian territory, of any representative Palestinian institution capable of bringing it about.

Given this higher political objective, as well as the deeply personal animosity that drives Sharon - he said again this week that he regrets not having killed his "enemy" in the past - it was inevitable that sooner or later Arafat would face the reckoning he now does. This stepped-up siege of the Palestinian leader, his possibly banishment or death - accidental or deliberate - is drastic enough, but it can only lead to the much more drastic still.

It will completely strip Sharon of his alibi for his failure so far, exposing the fallacy of his argument that only one man and his "terrorist infrastructure" are behind the Palestinian resistance. This will be shown to be a movement that belongs to the whole people, which the assault on Arafat can only intensify, not end.

Making him a martyr would only breed a thousand martyrs more. And in response, he himself will be driven to ever more drastic forms of warfare against the Palestinians. At some point it could drag the whole Arab world into the fray, in very serious if not necessarily military ways.



From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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Babbler # 2199

posted 30 March 2002 02:04 AM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I have never understood is how Sharon can insist that the PA rein in militants, and at the same time launch helicopter assaults on the police stations and prisons that are supposed to fulfill this function. I doubt he failed to recognize this and as such I doubt that Sharon is seriously wanting any peace at all.
From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
meades
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Babbler # 625

posted 30 March 2002 04:46 AM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon is a monster, and it just goes to show the power of propaganda when you think of why the Israelis haven't stormed the Knesset by now. How long has it been, anyway? When's the next election?
From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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posted 30 March 2002 09:21 AM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is no need for elections Labour is united with Likud in this 'national emergency.' Every now and again they trot out Foreign Minister (sic) Peres, so that they can embarrass him publicly.

This is the same old game as Ben Gurion/Menchem Begin...

"It's not that we (labour) don't want peace, its just that Israeli public opinion won't allow it. But those are the pitfalls of democracy (sic), and democracy is what Israel is all about. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to processing immigration applications from upstate New York Republicans."


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
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Babbler # 2404

posted 04 April 2002 10:47 AM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is no need for elections Labour is united with Likud in this 'national emergency.' Every now and again they trot out Foreign Minister (sic) Peres, so that they can embarrass him publicly.
This is the same old game as Ben Gurion/Menchem Begin...

"It's not that we (labour) don't want peace, its just that Israeli public opinion won't allow it. But those are the pitfalls of democracy (sic), and democracy is what Israel is all about. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go back to processing immigration applications from upstate New York Republicans."


It never ceases to amaze me. As long as Jews are being killed or perceived as victims many like the EU or the UN, God, all those pretending to be tolerant sympathize and cry their crocodile tears.

But let a Jew fight back; let the Jewish nation try to protect Jews then by golly the world reacts in horror. Shame on you all!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 04 April 2002 11:14 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am sorry Lakesh, that is a crock.
I could careless that Israelis are primarily Jewish or that Palestinians are primarily Islamic. It is not rlevant. What is relevant is that they are killing each other.

Interesting article in today's Star reprinted fromt he New York Times entitled: "Hamas: 'Our mood is good'".

quote:
They are almost welcoming of the Israeli attacks in the West Bank because they believe the military campaign will generate more recruits for Hamas. Already, the leaders say, they have more than enough recruits for suicide attacks.

See here: Hamas


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mimichekele
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Babbler # 1351

posted 04 April 2002 01:04 PM      Profile for Mimichekele   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hello Lakesh. You wrote with quite honestly felt emotion:

quote:
It never ceases to amaze me. As long as Jews are being killed or perceived as victims many like the EU or the UN, God, all those pretending to be tolerant sympathize and cry their crocodile tears.
But let a Jew fight back; let the Jewish nation try to protect Jews then by golly the world reacts in horror. Shame on you all!!

I have sometimes wondered the same thing. And I have no doubt used some heated language on this matter, perhaps too heated, something for which I have tried to make amends.

However, in my view, as someone who met his wife at a Peace Now demostration many years ago, I believe the issue is about how the Jewish nation fights to protect the Jewish people against attack, pogroms, suicide bombings etc.

Any government would use the means at its disposal to attempt to stop and crush Hamas-style murderers. Transposed to the North American population, the number of innocent ISraeli civilians deliberately killed since early March by suicide bombings, it is the equivalent of at least 4 World Trade Centre catastrophes. I believe any government would react very forcefully. And it has been pointed out by many Babblers (inclduing myself) that Hamas is an openly genocidal organization, whose founding covenant calls for extermination and repeats many of the ideas of traditional European and Muslim anti-semitism. Yes, destroy Hamas. Crush them like the criminals against humanity that they are. They are an openly Nazi organization.

However, Israeli policy will probably not achieve that. Along the way, the policy will destroy many Palestinian institutions, the only ones with which Israelis can hope to negotiate an end to the conflict. The policy only reinforces an occupation that is hated by even moderate and secular-minded Palestinians.

So I have to agree that the government has to protect a people that has been subjected to violence and threat for more than 50 years in Israell and for more than 2000 years everywhere else. However, I would say the policy of settlement and occupation - with the violence that it subjects the Palestinians to - will fail to ahieve that objective


From: Toronto - but I'd prefer being back in Montreal spotting Nazis | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 04 April 2002 01:05 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But let a Jew fight back; let the Jewish nation try to protect Jews then by golly the world reacts in horror. Shame on you all!!

Keep your pants on.

Nobody has denied that Israel has a legitimate right to defend itself against outside attack; after all, they fought wars in 1967 and 1973 and they won. Fine.

However, it is most unsettling to hear media reports of how Israeli soldiers have dehumanized their erstwhile Palestinian-Arab opponents as well as Palestinian-Arab civilians, or of how they sport "Born to Kill" painted on the back of their uniforms, or even of Israeli legislators casually remarking in the Knesset as follows:

quote:
... Syrian policies are fixed by a genetic code not subject to rapid changes
- Likud member of Knesset Uzi Landau in 1993

Leaving aside the appalling ignorance of that comment for a second, imagine the outrage that would hit the Western media if Pat Robertson or even a Southern Republican in the USA were to blithely remark that Israel's policies are fixed by a genetic code not subject to rapid changes.

In any case, I reiterate that no one has denied Israel's right to exist among the sensible members of the Western left or right. What is at issue here is Israel's moral culpability in engaging in actions which would get any other country into some serious deep shit.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lakesh
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posted 04 April 2002 03:38 PM      Profile for Lakesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In any case, I reiterate that no one has denied Israel's right to exist among the sensible members of the Western left or right. What is at issue here is Israel's moral culpability in engaging in actions which would get any other country into some serious deep shit.


Hmmm coutries like say, Saudi Arabia that subjicates it's populace, or do you mean Iran that bastion of tolerance;No Im sorry you meant "sensible Western democracies" perhaps you were referring to Great Britain who did so well with the IRA or maybe even the USA who invaded Afganistan to root out terror and guess what Afganistan is an ocean plus away. No no no, I know you must be thinking about Canada who invoked the War Measures Act invading homes arresting without cause to find one small band of extremists.

No my good Dr, as an important religious figure once said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 04 April 2002 05:20 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
perhaps you were referring to Great Britain who did so well with the IRA

And yet, Lakesh, you seem to think the same sorts of tactics (and worse) will work this time. Why?

edited to add:
Regarding "Other Western democracies did it, so why shouldn't Israel?", I can only respond: "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?". Two wrongs do not make a right, and so on.

[ April 04, 2002: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 05 April 2002 11:42 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Regarding "Other Western democracies did it, so why shouldn't Israel?", I can only respond: "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?". Two wrongs do not make a right, and so on.

Sadly, there is an element of truth to Lakesh' statement. If leaders of Western democracies can (quite literally) ignore the Geneva Conventions, what's going to stop leaders like Sharon from overstepping their legal bounds? As I've said before, you either accept that the GC applies to all people or to no people, you can't pick and choose. Once you've decided to conveniently ignore the GC, crying foul while other governments do the same is hypocritical at best. I'm not condoning any actions here, I'm just saying that our government needs to take the GC seriously at home and in conflicts we are involved in abroad before insisting that other states do the same. I think Canada has a very good track record with this, BTW (witness the post-Somalia prosecution of members of the Airborne unit as an example).


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2401

posted 05 April 2002 12:17 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If leaders of Western democracies can (quite literally) ignore the Geneva Conventions, what's going to stop leaders like Sharon from overstepping their legal bounds?

Sadly the next step in the equation is why can't the Palestinians?


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 05 April 2002 12:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hmmm coutries like say, Saudi Arabia that subjicates it's populace, or do you mean Iran that bastion of tolerance;No Im sorry you meant "sensible Western democracies" perhaps you were referring to Great Britain who did so well with the IRA or maybe even the USA who invaded Afganistan to root out terror and guess what Afganistan is an ocean plus away. No no no, I know you must be thinking about Canada who invoked the War Measures Act invading homes arresting without cause to find one small band of extremists.

Oh look, your light bulb went dim again.

I guess you can't read real good because I didn't say "sensible Western democracies". I said, I and I quote precisely: "I reiterate that no one has denied Israel's right to exist among the sensible members of the Western left or right."

This would indicate to any person who had an ounce of comprehension that I was speaking of individuals, not governments.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goodgoditsnottrue
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Babbler # 2401

posted 05 April 2002 12:29 PM      Profile for goodgoditsnottrue   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh look, your light bulb went dim again.

I don't know why that is so funny, but it is. Ho Ho ho ho!


From: Tarana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 05 April 2002 02:50 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't know why that is so funny, but it is. Ho Ho ho ho!

I've noticed you've been getting alot of chuckles from the posts today, GGINT. Are you dipping into the Friday sauce a little early? If so, could you pass me some? I'm tired of work (taking yet another "Babble Break"), and could use a couple of drinkie-poos.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged

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