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Author Topic: is there such a thing as 'bad art'?
badlydrawngirl
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posted 26 June 2003 01:45 PM      Profile for badlydrawngirl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i think there is. i also think that there's such a thing as 'evil art', 'good art', 'conscientious art' etc.

i think this because i believe art is part of everything we do, not just something you hang on a wall or sculpt. it's not a separate entity (or at least it shoudn't be), but something that we create by our actions every day.

for example, people who work in corporations 'do' art (although some may disagree). some may also say what they do is anti-art, ie. working for monsanto. but to me, it's just 'evil art'. it's art for no purpose other than greed.

whaddya think? and apologies if this topic has been posted before as this is my first posting on this board.

thanks!


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mighty brutus
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posted 26 June 2003 02:34 PM      Profile for mighty brutus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Poker-playing dogs = evil art
From: Beautiful Burnaby, British Columbia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
redshift
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posted 26 June 2003 02:44 PM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
the motel school of black-velvet impressionists
From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuba walda
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posted 26 June 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for kuba walda        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Poker-playing dogs = evil art

People are always picking on the poker playing dogs.... I would rather have that on my wall than velvet art of a big fat Elvis.


From: the garden | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 26 June 2003 05:00 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
for example, people who work in corporations 'do' art (although some may disagree). some may also say what they do is anti-art, ie. working for monsanto. but to me, it's just 'evil art'. it's art for no purpose other than greed.

Hi bdg,

I'm not sure what monsanto does, but when you refer to corporations that 'do art', are you referring to things like art departments in advertising agencies, or graphic design, or things like that?

The first thing that came to my mind is the art in computer games. There's a company in Edmonton that makes computer roleplaying games. Most of their games use some truly beautiful, hand drawn backgrounds and character portraits. I would say they have some truly talented artists on board.

But because their art is being used in a product (actually, as one of the centerpieces and main selling points of that product), and that product is then turned around and sold to make a profit, does that in turn make their art all about greed? Is a situation like that different from an advertising agency, where the art produced is simply a tool to sell a different product?

[ 26 June 2003: Message edited by: leftylicious ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 26 June 2003 05:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I was a child, my parents had hung on the wall two black-velvet oil paintings, one of a child with a tear in her eye, and the other of a woman nursing a baby. They bought them from a local Steakhouse.

When my parents split up many years later, my father took one (the child) but to complement it he went to a yard sale and purchased a large plastic bas-relief of a matador and bull, which had been sprayed in various places with gold spray paint, for that antique look. Price? 50¢

Also, I seem to recall some of those awful little "Love Is..." statuettes with the naked chubby kids on them, a plaster tablet of Desiderata, and a framed version of the serenity prayer ("Lord, grant me the strength...") even though either of my parents would have combusted spontaneously upon entering a church.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 26 June 2003 05:52 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My mother had a great attachment to "Blue Mountain Pottery". No one else in the family particularly liked it; and come to think, (and I say this with great affection) my Mom's aesthetic sense.....was..... challenged. But if you knew her, you'd see it as an endearing quality, like all who knew her did.

If there was ever a dispute over the material goods after my father died, it was over who HAD to take the "Blue Mountain Pottery" collection. No one could bring themselves to sell it, chuck it or otherwise part with it.

Some pieces are in my basement, in a box, awaiting the snickers of future archeologists.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 27 June 2003 04:41 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm not sure what monsanto does, but when you refer to corporations that 'do art', are you referring to things like art departments in advertising agencies, or graphic design, or things like that?
By the by, Monsanto brought us chemical atrocities like Agent Orange and DDT (among other things) and are now in the GE food business.

From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 27 June 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy_Paine:
My mother had a great attachment to "Blue Mountain Pottery". No one else in the family particularly liked it; and come to think, (and I say this with great affection) my Mom's aesthetic sense.....was..... challenged. But if you knew her, you'd see it as an endearing quality, like all who knew her did.

Ummm, our family owns (or maybe owned -- distant cousins) land from which the clay for Blue Mountain Pottery comes.

[ 27 June 2003: Message edited by: paxamillion ]


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 27 June 2003 04:51 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm. Interesting. Oscar Wilde said something like "There is no such thing as a moral or an immoral book -- books are well written, or badly written." And lots of writers since, artists in general, have agreed, or claimed to. But then Wilde had the good fortune of dying before (and I'm really sorry to mention it) Mein Kampf.

I wonder what he'd have thought had he experienced the real triumph of propaganda in the 20th century.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 June 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee. A thread that requires thought. I am going to need to rest up for this one.

Just for starters, though: I was trained to agree with Wilde -- that when we are on the turf of the aesthetic, the moral is getting in the way.

But that works only when we're thinking of art in the narrow sense -- ie: where is the serious art going to come from, the art that will produce the next masterpieces?

bdg, you are thinking more broadly than that, are you not? Do you mean that even what, for instance, people learn to do when they are getting MBAs is a kind of art? And that we should think about that craft or art in moral terms?

I need to ponder. But is that what you meant?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
redshift
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posted 27 June 2003 05:21 PM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
used to have a poster of this. so much is explained by examining our past.
http://www.mendosa.com/fluke.html

From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2003 05:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"There are only two kinds of music, good and bad."

Duke Ellington


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
redshift
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posted 27 June 2003 05:41 PM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
just heard an ad for the top 4 episodes of "Trailer Park Boys". canadian, eh?
From: cranbrook,bc | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
badlydrawngirl
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posted 30 June 2003 04:14 PM      Profile for badlydrawngirl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
bdg, you are thinking more broadly than that, are you not? Do you mean that even what, for instance, people learn to do when they are getting MBAs is a kind of art? And that we should think about that craft or art in moral terms?

yes skdadl, this is more what i'm getting at. like a president of a company, when he does his thing, is in fact creating art. a president who does his job well does his 'art' well (or maybe i should be using the word 'craft'), but if he works for monsanto is still perpetuating an 'evil art'.

i think what i'm trying to flesh out is my theory that art is not just putting paint on a canvas or moulding a piece of clay, but something that is (or at least should be) a daily experience. art should be something that broadens our minds, expands our vision and thought-making processes exponentially. and, if this is the case, that what we do everyday should be important enough to be art (the reality, of course, is far far from that ideal. or is it an ideal? is it attainable?).

sigh...must 'ponder' more about this. just thought i'd get some ideas going to challenge/question it so i can build a more coherent argument.

and my parents still have one of these in the wreckroom

quote:
Also, I seem to recall some of those awful little "Love Is..." statuettes with the naked chubby kids on them

thanks!


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 01 July 2003 04:45 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you believe in "good" and "evil" then, yes, these concepts would apply to art as well. But I think we should define what we mean by "art" here.

Does an artistic work have an æsthetic quality independent of its message? Does the message, being a part of the artistic work contribute to it æsthetically?

When you say 'conscientious' and 'evil', I'm assuming you're talking about an artistic works message independent of its style or execution.

example:
Monsanto's website
The Saskatchewan Organic Directorate's website

Æsthetically, I would call Monsanto's site "good art", while SOD's "bad art". Ethically, if you are against GE crops, then Monsanto's is "bad art" while SOD's "good".


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Performance Anxiety
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posted 02 July 2003 12:12 AM      Profile for Performance Anxiety        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice observations on art! Hal Niedzviecki, in We Want Some Too: Underground Desire and the Reinvention of Mass Culture, summarizes our current dilemma:

And so the search for a space – physical and mental – where we can say what we have to say and be the way we have to be, in order to reach new understanding of the way we live, continues with increasing urgency. It continues because mass culture’s relentless synergy of entertainment and information has rewritten our conception of our own lives. Because to be able to supply ourselves with our own perspectives, we need to re-imagine a world where we are all artists, critics, thinkers, dreamers. Because when we actually try to step into the looking glass of this dreamy, seedy panorama, we are branded as wacky, weird, and probably dangerous; we are prevented from realizing that basking in the ultraviolet rays of the false dawn entertainment economy is only a small part of what could be the western world’s real sunrise: a cultural renaissance of unprecedented proportions.


From: Outside of the box | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 03 July 2003 01:11 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I would rather have that on my wall than velvet art of a big fat Elvis.

Dude - Fat Elvis was at his, like, most righteous. And velvet Elvis paintings are, like, religious icons, okay?


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 03 July 2003 03:48 AM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Don't forget pretend art like "Voice of Fire".
From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 03 July 2003 03:59 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does bad art exist? most certainly. Stories about having sex with children that are not considered kiddy porn because they "don't exploit real children" and have "artistic merit"- that is bad art.
From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
LittleDoucheCoupe
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posted 03 July 2003 10:17 AM      Profile for LittleDoucheCoupe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good art: Plastic dog shit

Bad art: Hats that say "Go Fuck Yourself" sideways. Racist garbage! Unless of course it's accompanied by a small piece of plastic dog shit on the brim.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
redshift
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posted 07 July 2003 12:22 AM      Profile for redshift     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
art as political propaganda, which lately is becoming a bit of a preoccupation with me. there are certain obvious patterns in especially american entertainment that seem to be precursors to government activity, used to shape popular perceptions.
the spate of militarist movies,leading to a desensitization and acceptance of violence and death as inevitable, is a prime example. the bread and circuses of arena sports, the glorification of police violence , and the perceived scientific infallibility of investigative policing, all are designed to distract and deflect energy and attention from the problems that democratic society should concern itself with.
art as propaganda within our electronic media age,usurps a space occupied in pre-industrial ages by social programming.

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natas
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posted 15 July 2003 12:54 AM      Profile for natas   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
www.preciousmoments.com

Nuff said.


From: Vineland Station, Ontario | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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