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Author Topic: World Cup Fever
indiemuse
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posted 05 June 2006 08:22 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, I know it doesn't start until Friday but I was thinking we could share our World Cup memories and talk a little bit about what countries were rooting for.

I remember the last one I was dating a man who lived in Little Italy in Toronto and every time Italy won a huge party would erupt on the street. I had the same experience two years ago for the Euro Cup, I lived on the Danforth at the time and, well, I'm pretty sure I'll never get a chance to party that hard for the Leafs winning the Stanley Cup. This year I live close to Little Portugal (and I think Michelle does too), so I'm hoping that Portugal does well. Portugal or Trinidad and Tobago, because I love an underdog.

To me one of the great things about the World Cup is going out and experiencing it with people from countries where soccer is played extensively. The vibe in a packed bar when everyone is cheering in unison is amazing, that and I love a good street party.

So who are you cheering for? The country where you were born? Where your parents or grandparents were born? Where your neighbors are from? The underdogs? The sure thing? Common, just because Canada doesn't have a decent soccer team doesn't mean we can't partake!!!

For those who haven't yet caught the fever


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 05 June 2006 08:32 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Already being discussed here.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
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posted 05 June 2006 08:38 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shit, missed that one. Thanks M. Spector!
From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 15 June 2006 10:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bump!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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posted 15 June 2006 11:02 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am amused by all the Portugese soccer fans who suddenly lay claim to Brazil at World Cup time. My Brazillian friend tells me they could care less about the nation any other time.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 15 June 2006 12:55 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Devastated By U.S. World Cup Team's First-Round Loss, Nation Grinds To Halt

quote:
NEW YORK, LOS ANGELES, and WASHINGTON, DC—With the Dow Jones average down over 600 points, factory productivity in a downward spiral, and workplace attendance down by nearly a third, experts say the U.S. World Cup team's heartbreaking 3-0 defeat at the hands of Czech Republic on Monday has brought life across the soccer-crazed nation to a virtual standstill.

"What happened in Gelsenkirchen has indeed dealt a grievous blow to the morale of the American people," said President Bush, who had promised his constituency a swift and speedy victory in the World Cup this year and whose popularity has taken a 9 percent hit since the U.S. team's loss. "I want the citizens of this great nation, the world's only remaining superpower, to know that I grieve alongside them and urge them to be strong in our hour of darkness, and urge them to return to their jobs and schools despite their heavy hearts."

....

The general feeling of hopelessness may be felt across the United States, the nation the rest of the world thinks of as Pelé's adopted home, the land that popularized the term "soccer," and Americans are finding many different ways to voice their despair.

Hundreds of yards of black bunting hung over the head and arms of the Statue of Liberty has yet to be removed by the New York City Parks Department; similar shrouds have appeared on Mount Rushmore, the Golden Gate Bridge, and Hawaii's Pearl Harbor Memorial. Las Vegas casinos are running skeleton staffs at the tables and doubling the size of security shifts, at once worrying over their empty floors and fearing retribution at the hands of World Cup gamblers who bet on the U.S. out of loyalty. And the House of Representatives, which traditionally remains closed throughout the World Cup, called a special session for the specific purpose of introducing a bipartisan bill that would change America's national sport back to baseball.

"This cannot last," said Bruce Arena, coach of the U.S. World Cup team and by extension effectively the second-most powerful man in America, in an address televised simultaneously on every national channel Wednesday night. "We cannot have crops unharvested in the fields, the doors of our churches sealed shut, the Stars and Stripes fixed at half-mast, all because of our dishonorable standard of play. We cannot ask you to forgive our loss to the Czechs, as that must be left to the wisdom of the God of our fathers. We have always been a nation blessed with strength, not only in our love for our soccer teams, but in our love for one another, and we must call on both now if we are to endure these dark days."

At press time, the U.S. team is scheduled to play Italy on Saturday and Ghana the following Thursday, and the National Guard has reported moderate casualties while attempting to contain hooligan activity in the nine largest U.S. cities.



From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 15 June 2006 01:17 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Genuine "footy" fans have expressed incredulity at the rating - I think it was 5th or 7th in the world - of the US team. My initial reaction was that perhaps it was the result of excessive betting on an inferior team. Now I'm more inclined to believe that the fix was in, for whatever reason.

Sidebar: In 1950, the USA somehow beat England 1-0 believe it or not!


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'lance
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posted 15 June 2006 01:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Genuine "footy" fans have expressed incredulity at the rating - I think it was 5th or 7th in the world - of the US team. My initial reaction was that perhaps it was the result of excessive betting on an inferior team. Now I'm more inclined to believe that the fix was in, for whatever reason.

Sidebar: In 1950, the USA somehow beat England 1-0 believe it or not!


Perhaps it was down to ongoing rationing in the UK.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 16 June 2006 01:06 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As expected after their first-day upset against Poland, Ecuador have advanced to the second round, sending Poland home convincingly:
quote:
Ecuador made history by beating Costa Rica 3-0 in Hamburg to qualify for the knockout rounds of the FIFA World Cup™ for the first time. . . a historic moment for the Ecuadorians on only their second appearance on the world stage.

So, assuming Ecuador doesn't beat Germany next Tuesday, in the second round Ecuador will meet the loser of the England:Sweden game next Tuesday -- and maybe have a real chance?


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N.Beltov
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posted 16 June 2006 06:07 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The unrelenting criticism of the English team, despite the fact that they've gone 2 for 2, reminded me of discussions of Canadian ice hockey teams here at home. Nothing seems good enough.

Some general questions: I wonder how long these players get to practice together? How are their seasons disrupted as a result of the World Cup? Is the season in the southern hemisphere disrupted differently from the season in the northern hemisphere?


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Geneva
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posted 16 June 2006 06:55 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
very similar situations

I was at Torino, hoping to see the stars shine for Canada and, pfffffft, so lots of media criticism back home

St-Louis was fast but non-threatening and Thornton was not as his peak nor was Iginla, often invisible

but at least the England stars are WINNING the games


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 17 June 2006 12:59 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
American optimism:
quote:
We will regroup and come out stronger against the Italians. We didn't keep our shape well at all against the Czechs.

Heading into the Italy match we really need to come out with more confidence and play with much more composure at speed.

We can't allow a goal in the fifth minute like we did against the Czechs.



However:
quote:
If we come out and play as bad against Italy as we did against the Czechs, we're going to lose. It's just that simple.

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Ward
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posted 17 June 2006 02:05 AM      Profile for Ward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
World cup referee from Winnipeg. (Blog)
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Geneva
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posted 17 June 2006 11:37 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
great win by Ghana over Cezechs, 2-0

2 teams to get out of this group absolutely not decided yet


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M. Spector
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posted 17 June 2006 12:01 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Taking Advantage of Poor Refereeing
quote:
First off, referee Oscar Ruiz did such an utterly foul job at officiating the Netherlands-Ivory Coast match that it's almost impossible to figure out which team should be more disgusted with him. The Colombian distributed seven yellow cards — probably two, three max merited. Meanwhile, he left at least two penalties unwhistled, and looked at his shoes ignoring clear-cut fouls, yet stopped play to sanction piddling offenses elsewhere.

The worst part about it, Ruiz doesn't even seem to suffer from the disease that most of the world's worst referees have (i.e. they think people pay to see them at work). He actually looked as though he thought he was doing a decent job. Though there's no fair way of changing FIFA's current geographical selection process of referees, there has to be some way of reversing the current problem that sees all the real stinkers make it to the Cup.

Second, where did even mega-savvy European fans get the idea that a pencil-written rule of the game requires attacking teams to chuck away developing scoring opportunities to mark a minute of silence for the injury-faking opponent writhing down field? In the case of a clear or serious injury, fine — the referee can stop the match. Or, if a team that has recovered the ball near its own goal wants to give a downed rival the benefit of the doubt, cool — kick it out. But forget this garbage where entire nations — not just stadiums — start acting as though a team has been swindling drug money by mugging old people when it simply plays on with the logic that an opposing player lying down (occasionally due to injury) is more exceptional to the game than a player being sent off or another leaving due to injury after all replacements have been used up. It happens; play on.

That Dutch fans would get so peeved by the Ivoirians continuing play following Mark Van Bommel's horridly faked foul-cum-injury ploy is amazing. That they'd then start biting the plastic stadium seats in rage shortly after as the confounded Ivoirians actually had to be told by the replacement referee to keep playing while Giovanni van Bronkhost staged his death scene is just insane. No one should be expected to halt play because a rival decides to lie down. Older players still express amazement that it's done even in bad injuries cases these days.

Fans and current players alike have to get a grip on this one — if they don't, attacking teams sacrificing drives will soon be rushing over to carry the stretchers as well.



From The Scotsman:
quote:
Part of FIFA's problem is finding referees with the degree of respect and authority worthy of this kind of tournament, not to mention establishing a level of consistency acceptable to teams from six continents. In Europe's major leagues, where top referees are at least reasonably remunerated, Spanish referees have a reputation, mostly deserved, as the world's worst. Italians have a reputation for excellence somewhat undermined by widespread suspicions about their probity. English referees, an inconsistent bunch, remain isolated by officiating in the Premiership where a very different style of football still prevails.

With these difficulties afflicting officials, all we can hope is that this tournament doesn't go the same way as the 2002 shambles in the Far East. That competition now requires an asterisk in the record books pointing out that the tournament cannot be taken seriously due to ludicrous refereeing decisions. In Spain and Italy, the very mention South Korea will provoke outbursts of pained outrage for decades.

But it is alarming how often the outcome of football's most important tournament has hinged on the caprice of a referee: 1990 (never a penalty in the final), 1986 (hint of handball in the quarter-final), 1982 (attempted murder in the semi-final), 1974 (Franz Beckenbauer suggesting to Jack Taylor that he might like to make amends for awarding a first-minute penalty to the Dutch in the final), 1966 (goal-lines and all that).

Controversy stretches all the way back to 1930 when the Argentinians and Uruguayans disputed everything from the choice of which ball to play with to a couple of crucial offside decisions. In Buenos Aires they were so convinced they had been cheated they stoned the Uruguayan embassy and had to be dispersed by gunfire.

For some reason we look back on those times with a condescending grin at their intemperate reactions, perhaps forgetting that El Salvador went to war with Honduras over a dispute in a qualifier for the 1970 World Cup. Italian and South Korean diplomatic relations aren't what they used to be either.

Would that 2006 is less contentious. The likelihood though is two or three countries will be put out of the tournament eliminated for nothing more substantial than a lunge, and the men in black will once more exert their authority and egos to disruptive effect.



Franz Beckenbauer:
quote:
Franz Beckenbauer is annoyed at all the yellow cards being handed out by World Cup referees, and the tournament organizer accused an African official of stupidity Friday.

Beckenbauer told ZDF television that Benin's Coffi Codjia's yellow cards in the match between Ecuador and Costa Rica ``were stupid.''

Codjia handed out five yellows, about average for the competition so far.

Beckenbauer said bookings for time wasting were ridiculous.

``As a referee in that situation, I have to go over to the player and let him know that next time he will receive a yellow card,'' Beckenbauer said. ``If the players are booked again, they will miss a match -- and that is out of proportion.''

Referees handed out 102 yellow cards and five red cards in the first 21 matches of the competition, an average of 4.9 yellow cards per match. An average of 4.25 yellows per game were handed out at the 2002 World Cup: 272 yellows and 17 reds in 64 matches.



From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 17 June 2006 03:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My street (Dufferin, between Bloor and Dupont in Toronto) has been a party for the last 7 hours. They're not actually shutting down the street or anything, but the people two doors down from me were blaring Portuguese music and waving their flags and yelling and cheering at all the cars driving by, and at least half the cars have been honking and waving flags, and standing in the sunroof, etc. The neighbours were carrying their flags into the street and cars were slowing down to pass them, and they were partying with the flag cars that passed. It's pretty wild. That video I posted a few days ago? That's NOTHING compared to the partying happening here today.

There's an old man who lives a few doors down that I'm friendly with who is probably in his 60's. Portuguese guy. He has huge flags waving off his porch and was ringing a cow bell he brought back from Portugal a few years ago from his father's farm. He's one of those guys who is often sitting in the shade on his porch, and he has the most immaculate rose garden I've ever seen in my life, with about a billion absolutely gorgeous blooms. So I usually stop and admire his flowers and chat with him a few times a week when I'm walking home from the subway station.

A place up the street on the opposite side from me has a bunch of young guys wearing Portugal jerseys, and on the porch, the one guy had this huge sound mixing board where he was blaring Portuguese music while the cars passing were all blaring their horns at them while they waved their flags and yelled back.

It's pretty amazing. I wonder if the party will continue into the night? There isn't as much honking as there was this morning between 11 and 3 or so, but I'm still hearing it. There are also a bunch of folks at the community centre half a block up from my place who are hanging out and cheering at everyone who passes by in cars and on the sidewalk.

Have I mentioned that I love my neighbourhood?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 17 June 2006 04:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Genuine "footy" fans have expressed incredulity at the rating - I think it was 5th or 7th in the world - of the US team. My initial reaction was that perhaps it was the result of excessive betting on an inferior team. Now I'm more inclined to believe that the fix was in, for whatever reason.

Someone I was talking to about it was telling me, and I'm not sure if it's true, but that the reason the US team is ranked so high is because they play so many games around the world - they go to so many matches and "friendly" games that their rating is higher.

I have no idea if that's true or not. In fact, when I heard it, I thought, I'm going to ask the babblers about that! But I'd forgotten to do so until now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 17 June 2006 05:08 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The US may have just earned, at least partly, their apparently inflated rating. USA 1 Italy 1. Much better for the Yanks.

I missed most of the game by participating in the 25th Annual Winnipeg Walk for Peace. More to follow.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 17 June 2006 05:41 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excerpt from the official explanation of the FIFA rankings:
quote:
Taken into consideration for the ranking are all international-A match results over a time span of the last eight years:
  • World Cup finals matches
  • World Cup preliminary matches
  • FIFA Confederations Cup matches
  • Continental championship final matches
  • Continental championship preliminary matches
  • Friendly matches

The ranking list is produced by a computer program which assigns a team points for every match, according to clearly defined criteria. The factors taken into consideration are:
  • Winning, drawing and losing
  • Number of goals
  • Home or away match
  • Importance of the match (multiplication factor)
  • Regional strength (multiplication factor)

For each team only the seven best results per year are given full weighting. Results from the past are given progressively less weighting year by year until after eight years they are dropped completely. In this way current success is rated more highly than past results.
All clear?

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 18 June 2006 12:40 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Will Ronaldo be in good shape for today's game?
quote:
Ronaldo Luiz Nazario da Silva is quite simply one of the greatest strikers in the history of world football, capable of leaving an entire team for dead with his darting runs and dribbling ability, voted FIFA World Player of the Year on three occasions and already a double FIFA World Cup™ winner.

In 2002, he moved back to Spain with Real Madrid and the then Brazil coach Luiz Felipe Scolari gambled on the forward’s return to form and fitness by calling him up to Brazil’s FIFA World Cup squad. No one could have predicted a better outcome. Not only had Brazil won their fifth FIFA World Cup, but the ‘Phenomenon’ was the tournament’s top scorer, netting eight goals in only seven games. Only Pele has netted as many goals for Brazil in the competition’s history – both players having scored 12 times. In 2006 Ronaldo will be looking to surpass that figure as well as overhaul Gerd Muller’s long-standing 14-goal record as top scorer in the history of the FIFA World Cup. Opposition defences beware.



From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 18 June 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Togo's mutineering World Cup squad, who had refused to leave their base, have settled for less than ($196,300) each, but FIFA had to guarantee the payment.
quote:
They missed their scheduled morning flight to Dortmund. "There was a some uncertainty this morning, but the money and the premiums for the team have now been agreed," midfielder Thomas Dossevi said after completing a re-arranged evening training session at the Dortmund's Westfalenstadion.

"We have not actually received the money yet but we were given an assurance by FIFA that it will be paid in the coming week.

The players agreed to lower their initial demands of 155,000 euros ($196,300) each to play and 30,000 euros for each win, but would not reveal the new figures.

Togo's German coach Otto Pfister walked out on the team just before the tournament, saying the pay row made it impossible for him to do his job. He returned just in time for their first match, a 2-1 defeat to South Korea.

No team that has qualified for a World Cup finals has withdrawn from a match in the 76-year history of the event.



But I'm certain FIFA has never in World Cup history guaranteed payments to players. Extraordinary stuff.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 21 June 2006 05:57 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mexico are cheering for Iran this morning, thanks to Angola holding Mexico to a draw last Friday.

If Mexico were to score an upset victory over Portugal this morning, both teams would advance to the next round. More likely, Portugal will beat Mexico. If Angola beats Iran this morning, Mexico and Angola are tied for points, and goal difference will determine which side advances.

But if Iran wins, or even holds Angola to a draw, then Angola is out, and Mexico is home safe.

Iran, unfortunately, has no points to date, and hence no possibility of advancing to the next round. But this game still matters to Iranian pride -- their best chance for a win -- and to Angola and Mexico.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 21 June 2006 08:56 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
God Bless Iran, says Mexico.

Iran held Angola to a 1:1 draw.

Mexico advances to the round of 16.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 21 June 2006 08:21 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, seeing Canada is not represented there, and ya'll hate the US so much (can't disagree there), how's about you get behind the Socceroos. We're playing Croatia early tomorrow morning Aus time, and a draw or outright win will get us to the next round.

It will make up for the fact that you didn't kneecap John Howard during his love-in with Stephen Harper a few weeks ago...


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 21 June 2006 08:39 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
We're playing Croatia early tomorrow morning Aus time, and a draw or outright win will get us to the next round.

How long have you had these masochistic fantasies of being crushed by Italy in the second round? But hey, whatever turns you on, if you want to spare the Croatians from that trauma, I'll cheer for the Aussie underdogs.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 21 June 2006 09:16 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilf, sorry I've been away. Rest assured you're not the only progreesive thinker who is interested in the World Game.
Re: Ronaldo, he did pretty poorly against us last week. I think the 'fatty' jibes are juvenile, but he certainly doesn't seem to be his old self.

From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 21 June 2006 09:22 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

How long have you had these masochistic fantasies of being crushed by Italy in the second round? But hey, whatever turns you on, if you want to spare the Croatians from that trauma, I'll cheer for the Aussie underdogs.

Hey, hey, if the US can score against them, we can too. In fact, Italy ain't doing so well. Are they your pick for the tournament?


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 21 June 2006 11:44 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
Italy ain't doing so well. Are they your pick for the tournament?

On an American TV channel tonight we heard, of all people, Henry Kissinger discussing the World Cup. I guess it really does unite everyone, even people who agree on nothing else. He just turned 83, but he's as sharp a football fan as ever. Of course, he spent his first 15 years in Germany. His favourites are Germany, Brazil and Argentina, with a favourable glance at Spain. Who am I to disagree? If Germany meets Argentina in the quarter-final, the final could be an anti-climax.

But I'm forgetting that Australia will beat Croatia, then beat Italy, then beat France in the quarter-final, then beat Argentina or Germany in the semi-final, and then play Brazil in the very climatic final.

[ 21 June 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 22 June 2006 12:32 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

But I'm forgetting that Australia will beat Croatia, then beat Italy, then beat France in the quarter-final, then beat Argentina or Germany in the semi-final, and then play Brazil in the very climatic final.

Wow, really?!? That's good news!

quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
Rest assured you're not the only progressive thinker who is interested in the World Game.
No, far from it. I confess to being a World Cup tragic, a dirty habit I picked up last time around.

I don't tend to cheer for sides on the basis on their nationality, but more on the spirit in which they play. The showy teams who seem to really enjoy being out there get my pom-poms waving. Nasty, aggressive teams get the boos and hisses. On the other hand, the teams who fall over in dramatic convulsions, vying for a penalty, every time another player comes within four feet of them (*cough*Italy*cough*)get a Chez Suzette Academy Award and kitsch cult status.

Ah, The Beautiful Game!


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boddington
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posted 22 June 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Boddington     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilf:

If Italy crushes Croatia that would be the first time Croatia was defeated by Italy since they entered fifa in 1992.

I think the record is Croatia has beaten Italy twice and tied them three times. They beat them in Euro 96 Qualifiers and in the 2002 World Cup.

Croatia has a great ability to beat the best countries and then lose to the so-called minor football nations.

quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

How long have you had these masochistic fantasies of being crushed by Italy in the second round? But hey, whatever turns you on, if you want to spare the Croatians from that trauma, I'll cheer for the Aussie underdogs.


From: GTA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 22 June 2006 08:44 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I've become a hardcore fan.

The socceroos are good and all, but you need to be broken in before you can go on to do great things. Lets let Croatia win and take their rightful place.

And I'm really sad that the Czechs aren't going to make it. They had a really, really good team.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 22 June 2006 08:59 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
USians to the sweet sixteen:

Not Ghana happen.

Italy and Ghana through to the next round.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 22 June 2006 10:41 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Brogan:
Not Ghana happen.

Now, Brazil.

Ghana wasn't supposed to beat the USA. Hmm.

And they certainly weren't supposed to beat the Czechs 2:0. Hmm. Hmm.

To get here, Ghana:
- beat South Africa 3-0, then beat Burkina Faso.
- got a memorable 2-0 success in South Africa that put them to the top of the group.
- secured their position by beating Uganda and Cape Verde.

Ghana played a friendly once against Brazil, and lost 8:2. But that was ten years ago.

Brazil don't want to be overconfident.


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500_Apples
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posted 22 June 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Brazil-Ghana is about as stereotypical overdog-underdog as you can get.
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Papal Bull
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posted 22 June 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Especially with Ronaldo playing like I do

Tomorrow is the big day for me though. Does Ukraine go through to the next round? Who do they play? Will I be laughed at by my Arabic friend who said that there is no way in hell Ukraine can do it?

Tune in tomorrow afternoon to find me in a mentally downtrodden or ecstatic state!


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 22 June 2006 01:39 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
[QB]Well, seeing Canada is not represented there, and ya'll hate the US so much (can't disagree there), how's about you get behind the Socceroos. We're playing Croatia early tomorrow morning Aus time, and a draw or outright win will get us to the next round.

I could cheer for the Socceroos, they play hard, and are relativley entertaining, and aren't a bunch of "oh no he's within 4 feet of me, fall down and die from the agony" sort of a team. Because other than almost cliche-ishly cheering for England, I really have no other teams I could cheer for persay. I was really annoyed when the goalie let in that aweful goal, but I'm glad that the Aussies have tied it up. If they can keep it tied up for the next ten minutes they should be fine. Although, considering the balance of the play, they really do deserve to win.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 22 June 2006 02:20 PM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Papal Bull:
The socceroos are good and all, but you need to be broken in before you can go on to do great things. Lets let Croatia win and take their rightful place.

Sorry, PB, but Croatia's been denied that "rightful place" after all. Oh well.

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Papal Bull
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posted 22 June 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Australia is hacking.

Using Koalas and other distinct fauna to distract the other team.

INSERT AUSRTRALIAN STEREOTYPE HERE


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 22 June 2006 10:15 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WOO HOO!!!!!!!!!!! SOCCEROOS!!!!!!!!!!

Canada, I offered you the chance to jump on board the Socceroos wagon. There's still time. You're all welcome.

Mark my words - Australia will beat Italy.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 23 June 2006 12:33 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
Mark my words - Australia will beat Italy.
Centrebet--who predict election outcomes accurately without fail--have a slightly different opinion on this one:
Italy to win: $1.55.
Draw: $3.55.
Australia to win: $6.50.
Perhaps you should make an investment, Walker, for the Christmas fund. (The bad news is that they've currently got the Coalition at $1.57 and Labor at $2.25 for the next election. But hey, they don't have a crystal ball.... do they?!)

I have to say that I was pretty stoked to watch the match this morning. I even crawled out of bed at 5am for the pleasure. And what a pleasure it was! A total nail-biter, which is the best way for any sport to be, of course. Amusing, too, that half the Australian team is Croatian, and half the Croatian team is Australian.

The best thing about the Socceroos' success is the lift it will give the game in this country. Australian soccer has been in dire straits for a long time now, so this can only help it along.


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Vansterdam Kid
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posted 23 June 2006 02:22 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's funny, I crawled out of bed to watch it too. At noon mind you, but there was waking up involved.

But I suppose you Aussie's call it soccer like us North Americans too? That's unfortunate. 'Socceroos' are a cool nick name, but still, it really should be known as football everywhere.


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Suzette
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posted 23 June 2006 06:27 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, the rub is that we have several different codes of sport called "football", all of them more popular than the round ball game. I think it'll be "soccer" here for a while yet.
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Papal Bull
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posted 23 June 2006 10:35 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Foot ball is played with a synthetic pig skin! Soccer is played with a checkered ball. Let's keep it that way!

Anyways, looks like Ukraine is going to advance. I'm looking forward to it...even if we're two defence men short


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2006 02:43 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One African team and no Asian teams have survived the first round. Other than the Auzzies there's a handful of Latin American teams (including Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador and Mexico) and the rest are European teams. The lack of diversity is disappointing.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 23 June 2006 08:47 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
The lack of diversity is disappointing.

My glass is half-full. Ecuador were serious underdogs, yet defeated Poland and are surprise entrants in the round of 16. Ghana, of course, are the newbies who ousted the Czechs (and the USA.) And Australia bested Croatia. Three less European teams than the bookmakers had predicted. I see the score as diversity plus three, Europe minus three.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 23 June 2006 09:19 PM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:
Ghana, of course, are the newbies who ousted the Czechs (and the USA.).

Thereby making Ghana my new favourite team. I never believed that the Number 5 ranking for the 'mericans had any credibility at all.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 23 June 2006 11:07 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi Suzette, long time no post (me).
I am thinking of going down to Lygon St to watch the game on the big screen, but I'm not sure I won't actually be outnumbered by Italian supporters. (NB Canadians, Lygon St Carlton in Melbourne is the focus of all things Italian in Australia. It's sunk into a sad cliche of Italian culture - 100's of pizza/pasta shops etc) but it's a real cultural experience for the suburban masses).

I am going to take a bet for Australia. I'm thinking they've already gone further than we ever thought they could, so there's no reason why they can't continue. And Italy has kind of struggled.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 24 June 2006 12:36 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
I am going to take a bet for Australia. Italy has kind of struggled.

So if you get past Italy, who do you think you'll face: Switzerland or Ukraine? I'm betting Ukraine, my wife's betting Switzerland. Could be close?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 24 June 2006 04:00 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
Hi Suzette, long time no post (me).

Hey, Walker! Long time no post (me either). Hope you and yours are in the pink.

quote:
I am thinking of going down to Lygon St to watch the game on the big screen, but I'm not sure I won't actually be outnumbered by Italian supporters.

Lygon Street could be fun, but on the other hand could be a great, stifling crush of drunk bogans. But then, there's a *fantastic* souvlaki shop just south of the main strip, (cnr Argyle South) where you could head if things were getting too tiresome. I'm sure it, along with everything else along the Macchiato Boulevard, will be open and hopping that night.

quote:
I am going to take a bet for Australia. I'm thinking they've already gone further than we ever thought they could, so there's no reason why they can't continue. And Italy has kind of struggled.

Yeah, jeez... I just don't know which way it'll go. It would be amazing if Australia took it out, but I won't be astonished if it doesn't happen. I'm looking forward to seeing it, either way.

[ 24 June 2006: Message edited by: Suzette ]


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 24 June 2006 09:48 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love the World Cup theme music on TSN. It sounds well-known enough that I should know it, but I can't place it. Anyone?

I see I'm not the first person to post this question on-line.

For the Aussies and others who don't get TSN, Click Here to hear it.

[ 24 June 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 24 June 2006 10:09 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It does sort of grow on you, but I don't believe I had ever heard it before June 9.

For a truly awful World Cup song, try this one:

"...it's the land of the free, where the World Cup should be...


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 24 June 2006 12:12 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow! Only 10 minutes into the game, and already it's Mexico 1, Argentina 1.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 24 June 2006 06:25 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

So if you get past Italy, who do you think you'll face: Switzerland or Ukraine? I'm betting Ukraine, my wife's betting Switzerland. Could be close?

Hi Wilf. To be honest, I'm not looking that far ahead, partly because the time difference is horrific over here. eg. The upcoming game v Italy is on from 1.00am Tuesday morning. Also because as with most part time supporters I don't have a fine grasp on the final 16. Also, as it was with high school I always do my homework at the last minute.

I think both the Swiss and Ukranians are unknown quantities for the Socceroos, but I'm sure Guus the wonder coach has already done his homework.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 24 June 2006 06:37 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Suzette:

Yeah, jeez... I just don't know which way it'll go. It would be amazing if Australia took it out, but I won't be astonished if it doesn't happen. I'm looking forward to seeing it, either way.

[ 24 June 2006: Message edited by: Suzette ]


I'm having second thoughts on Lygon St. My neighbour just bought an obscene widescreen TV and has great SBS reception, so I might pop over in the wee hours and cheer them on there.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 26 June 2006 04:24 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sounds like a considerably more civilised plan, Walker. Me, I'm taping it to watch when I get up... before I've heard the results.
From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 26 June 2006 08:48 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nil-Nil Australia-Italy at the half. I'm very impressed with the defensive skills of the Italian team. Some good chances on both sides. There was a yellow card (or two?) but this game is nothing like the card-fest (including 4 red cards!) of last night's Netherlands-Portugal game.

[ 26 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 26 June 2006 09:51 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Totti!!!!!

Totti has scored on a penalty kick in injury/extra time. 1-0 Italy. A heartbreak for the Auzzies who played excellently and were up a player after one of the Italian players was sent off with a red card. A hugely dramatic finish, worthy of the event.

Totti did an interesting thing. Immediately after scoring the goal, he did a little run during which he, very obviously and deliberately, sucked his thumb. Was that homage to his mum or a calculated slight? [As a slight that William Shakespeare demonstrated in the opening sequence of Romeo and Juliet in which Capulets and Montagues argue over the biting of a thumb. "Do you bit your thumb at me, Sir?" etc. ]

Or something else?

[ 26 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 10:23 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
For a truly awful World Cup song, try this one:

"...it's the land of the free, where the World Cup should be...


Oh man that is sooo baaad. And here was I thinking the English World Cup songs of days gone by were really bad! They sound positively poetic compared to this offering.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 10:32 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:

Hi Wilf. To be honest, I'm not looking that far ahead, partly because the time difference is horrific over here. eg. The upcoming game v Italy is on from 1.00am Tuesday morning. Also because as with most part time supporters I don't have a fine grasp on the final 16. Also, as it was with high school I always do my homework at the last minute.

I think both the Swiss and Ukranians are unknown quantities for the Socceroos, but I'm sure Guus the wonder coach has already done his homework.


Just watch out for Italy. They have failed to impress so far and yet find themselves facing either Switzerland or Ukraine for a semi final spot.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
otter
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posted 26 June 2006 10:56 AM      Profile for otter        Edit/Delete Post
Is that silly game still going on?
From: agent provocateur inc. | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 26 June 2006 11:08 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Underdogs are not doing too well: Ecuador gone, Australia gone.

Still, Switzerland shouldn't be top of their group. They only barely edged Turkey (remember how well Turkey did in 2002?) on a tie-breaker rule to get to the Cup at all. Whichever one wins this afternoon, Switzerland or Ukraine, will put an underdog in the quarter-finals. And already Portugal is in the quarter-finals, another underdog.

Now if only Ghana could beat Brazil tomorrow . . .


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 11:18 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:
Underdogs are not doing too well: Ecuador gone, Australia gone.

Still, Switzerland shouldn't be top of their group. They only barely edged Turkey (remember how well Turkey did in 2002?) on a tie-breaker rule to get to the Cup at all. Whichever one wins this afternoon, Switzerland or Ukraine, will put an underdog in the quarter-finals. And already Portugal is in the quarter-finals, another underdog.

Now if only Ghana could beat Brazil tomorrow . . .


I wouldn't classify a team ranked 10 (i.e. Portugal) as being an underdog and nor does FIFA as they seeded them first in their group. Portugal are currently on an 18 game unbeaten streak as well.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 11:21 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by otter:
Is that silly game still going on?

The Italy - Australia game or the whole World Cup? If the former then yes. If the latter then no way baby! =) We still have almost two weeks left! We only just passed the half way mark! Woooooooohoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 26 June 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:
I wouldn't classify a team ranked 10 (i.e. Portugal) as being an underdog and nor does FIFA as they seeded them first in their group.

They were first in a weak group, but Netherlands were second in a strong group. The oddsmakers gave Netherlands better chances than Portugal, and Netherlands had a higher FIFA ranking than Portugal. Sure Portugal are good, but the Netherlands should have beaten them, that's why I'm saying Portugal were the underdogs to make the quarter-finals.

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N.Beltov
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posted 26 June 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope today's dramatic victory for the Italians will inspire that team. Their keeper showed his skills today and kept his team in the match more than once. Italy is a great defensive team and the match against the Auzzies was like a lesson in skillful defence by both sides. But Totti. Hasn't he already been an Italian here in soccer? Let's see now...

i just read that Totti has a gladiator tatooed on his arm. He's made some sort of "oath of allegiance" to his soccer team. Yikes. I guess you don't want to scratch too deep at some of these stars.

[ 26 June 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 01:04 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

They were first in a weak group, but Netherlands were second in a strong group. The oddsmakers gave Netherlands better chances than Portugal, and Netherlands had a higher FIFA ranking than Portugal. Sure Portugal are good, but the Netherlands should have beaten them, that's why I'm saying Portugal were the underdogs to make the quarter-finals.

But thats a bit like saying that Germany is an underdog in their quarterfinal match up against Argentina. Germany had a very weak group (Poland being seeded second!) and are 10 spaces below Argentina in the rankings. When you have two teams with the football heritage of the Netherlands and Portugal there are no real underdogs, certainly not in the same ball park as Italy - Aus or Brazil - Ghana.

I be interested to find out what the odds were because Portugal last lost to Netherlands in 1991, going 5-0-3 in that period.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 26 June 2006 04:37 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am SOOOOOO pissed off. I hesitate to say it but
We wuz robbed!!!!!

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the penalty Beltov? Anybody whose heart hasn't been broken?


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 26 June 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wise comment from the minute by minute report on The Guardian's website:

quote:

Going so close only to be shafted by a last-minute Italian winner - in time you'll get over it my Aussie friends. It happens the best of us and it's all part of the big learning curve in international football. A rite of passage for you.

And a right laugh for the rest of us ....

quote:

That last bit is SO English. If the world was spinning ever so slightly to the left, Australia would have met England in the World Cup final and would have used the voodoo we usually use against them in all things sporting- and whipped their arse.

Oh well, roll on World Cup 2008.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 26 June 2006 07:21 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Walker: I'd be interested in your thoughts on the penalty Beltov?

I'm not the best person to ask as I am not very knowledgeable about all the soccer rules. However, after looking at the play a few times, it seemed to me that the Auzzie defender made a weak effort to get out of the way of the Italian striker; that's the only thing that the referee could call as the Auzzie defender was down on the ground at the time. Mind you, the Italian player embellished it and could have received a yellow card as well.

The Auzzies played well and hit the crossbar or came close to the bar at least once. They defended very well and were, frankly, unlucky with the call. "Them's the breaks."


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 26 June 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not that knowledgeable either, I mainly took my lead from the commentators but it seemed wrong to me mainly because Lucas Neill came in too early, so he wasn't guilty of an attack, and he wasn't moving, so the Italian certainly could have jumped over him if he wanted to.
Of course, if you see a potential penalty kick staring you in the face... You drag your foot over the player in front of you and feign a trip.
I know, I'm still bitter.

From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 08:12 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
[QB]
That last bit is SO English. If the world was spinning ever so slightly to the left, Australia would have met England in the World Cup final and would have used the voodoo we usually use against them in all things sporting- and whipped their arse.QB]

You mean like in the Ashes series last year?


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 26 June 2006 08:16 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ukraine V. Italy.

:s


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 26 June 2006 09:13 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:

You mean like in the Ashes series last year?


No, I mean like every OTHER Ashes series before that, and the one that is coming up this year.


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 09:18 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
I'm not that knowledgeable either, I mainly took my lead from the commentators but it seemed wrong to me mainly because Lucas Neill came in too early, so he wasn't guilty of an attack, and he wasn't moving, so the Italian certainly could have jumped over him if he wanted to.
Of course, if you see a potential penalty kick staring you in the face... You drag your foot over the player in front of you and feign a trip.
I know, I'm still bitter.

The penalty was called not because the Aussie impeded the Italian guy by falling over but because he impeded him with a definite movement of his arm. The Italian guy certainly made the most of his opportunity but when all is said and done it was a foul. I also think the foul the Italian got sent off for was a little harsh. Certainly not worthy of a direct red card.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 26 June 2006 09:19 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:

No, I mean like every OTHER Ashes series before that, and the one that is coming up this year.


You got to live in the here and now man and not relive the glories of series past.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 26 June 2006 11:29 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:

You got to live in the here and now man and not relive the glories of series past.


Hee hee, agreed.
Back to the bogus penalty- I didn't see Neill move his arm, and it certainly wouldn't have been enough of a movement to tripped Grosso up. Still, a trickle of reality is trickling through that says they had 93 minutes and didn't score, so it's not as if they would have won if the penalty had never happened. Of course, that applies to both teams.
Who knows what would have happened in extra time. The Socceroos made a big thing of their fitness during the tournament, and maybe it would have carried them through an extra 30 minutes of game time.

One could lose sleep wondering what if...


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 27 June 2006 08:03 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:

Hee hee, agreed.
Back to the bogus penalty- I didn't see Neill move his arm, and it certainly wouldn't have been enough of a movement to tripped Grosso up. Still, a trickle of reality is trickling through that says they had 93 minutes and didn't score, so it's not as if they would have won if the penalty had never happened. Of course, that applies to both teams.
Who knows what would have happened in extra time. The Socceroos made a big thing of their fitness during the tournament, and maybe it would have carried them through an extra 30 minutes of game time.

One could lose sleep wondering what if...


I think it was more the fact that he didn't move it out of the way and because to do so would have been the natural reaction (curl up and protect yourself), by implication he conciously left it out there to trip the guy. 50/50 call anyway. You are right about not scoring goals though. You can't pin a loss down to one incident in the dying seconds.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 27 June 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Brazil and France are through to the next round in two good games today. Down to the final 8, we'll see: 1. Germany-Argentina; 2. England-Portugal; 3. Italy-Ukraine; and 4. Brazil-France. Of the 8 teams remaining, 6 of them have already won the soccer World Cup (the only winner missing is Uruguay). There are a few days off before the next round.
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M. Spector
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posted 27 June 2006 03:10 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:
The penalty was called not because the Aussie impeded the Italian guy by falling over but because he impeded him with a definite movement of his arm. The Italian guy certainly made the most of his opportunity but when all is said and done it was a foul.
I have reviewed my tape frame by frame and it is clear that the Italian player was not caused to fall by the Australian player's arm. The Italian's left foot was planted firmly against the Aussie's ass, and that is the only reason he fell over.

This kind of falling happens all the time, all over the field, and it's not worthy of a free kick, let alone a penalty. Nor is it always a case of diving; it's very easy for player to lose his balance and fall without fault on anyone's part.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 27 June 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
I have reviewed my tape frame by frame and it is clear that the Italian player was not caused to fall by the Australian player's arm. The Italian's left foot was planted firmly against the Aussie's ass, and that is the only reason he fell over.

This kind of falling happens all the time, all over the field, and it's not worthy of a free kick, let alone a penalty. Nor is it always a case of diving; it's very easy for player to lose his balance and fall without fault on anyone's part.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. When it comes down to it if you make a challenge of that type in the penalty area, irrespective of whether or not it is a legal challenge, and the guy goes to ground you risk the chance of a penalty being awarded. Referees are human and therefore just as infallible as the rest of us.

Soccer is a free flowing game that does not lend itself to instant reviews. You take away the flow and you destroy the game. One day you'll get a good call, one day you'll get a bad call. If you can't accept that then you shouldn't be playing the game.

The way to address the histrionics is to book the divers, heck even send them off for unsportsmanlike behaviour. Sure it would be tough at first but people would get the message pretty quick when their actions have their team down a man or two.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 27 June 2006 04:11 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Brazil and France are through to the next round in two good games today. Down to the final 8, we'll see: 1. Germany-Argentina; 2. England-Portugal; 3. Italy-Ukraine; and 4. Brazil-France. Of the 8 teams remaining, 6 of them have already won the soccer World Cup (the only winner missing is Uruguay). There are a few days off before the next round.

So Argentina-England and Brazil-Italy in the semis then? Revenge for England would be so awfully sweet.


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Papal Bull
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posted 27 June 2006 04:17 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Portugal-Brazil, Ukraine-Germany wouldn't it be?

Italy and England suck. And I have faith in the German boys.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 27 June 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The pairings are as follows:

The winner of Germany-Argentina plays the winner of Italy-Ukraine; the winner of England-Portugal plays the winner of Brazil-France. So England can only meet Argentina in the final or perhaps in a "bronze medal" game.

Strangely, the TSN website has removed the lettering that identifies the pairings. Anyway, the link here has the time and network identification of the games.

World Cup schedule and results (TSN)


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 27 June 2006 04:52 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:
When it comes down to it if you make a challenge of that type in the penalty area, irrespective of whether or not it is a legal challenge, and the guy goes to ground you risk the chance of a penalty being awarded.
A challenge of what "type"? One where you slide on the ground in front of another player without touching the ball or the player? Exactly what type of challenge do you think is permissible in the penalty area?
quote:
Referees are human and therefore just as infallible as the rest of us.
This is, of course, the "Godwin's Law" of soccer. When you find yourself defending an error made by a referee you have already lost the argument.

This is the World Cup. We expect world-class standards from the players, and we should accept nothing less than world-class standards from the referees. Players don't get excuses made for them when they make mistakes - they get red cards, goals scored against them, etc. But somehow when a referee makes a mistake we're supposed to just sit back and say "that referee's mistake changed the outcome of the match, but he's only human, so that's okay." There is no other sport on Earth where such an attitude would be considered reasonable.

quote:
Soccer is a free flowing game that does not lend itself to instant reviews. You take away the flow and you destroy the game.
I never advocated for "instant reviews". And in this case it was the referee's incorrect call that took away the flow and destroyed the game.
quote:
One day you'll get a good call, one day you'll get a bad call. If you can't accept that then you shouldn't be playing the game.
Of course, players have to accept that, because there is S.F.A. they can do about it.

But that doesn't make it right. In fact it makes a mockery of the "Fair Play" theme that FIFA is pushing constantly. And as I said above, there is no other sport on Earth where it would be considered reasonable to expect that the referee can single-handedly determine the outcome of the match by making a mistake, and expect all the players and spectators to just shrug their shoulders in impotence.

That's what people do in oppressive military dictatorships; it's not a good business model for soccer.

quote:
The way to address the histrionics is to book the divers, heck even send them off for unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Unless, of course, the diver is an Italian in the penalty area in a World Cup match.
quote:
Sure it would be tough at first but people would get the message pretty quick when their actions have their team down a man or two.
That's exactly what the referees tried to do throughout the first half of the tournament, and it didn't work. It reached its apotheosis in the Portugal-Holland match where the Russian referee booked everybody for everything and the game became a joke.

[ 27 June 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 27 June 2006 09:38 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Papal Bull:
Portugal-Brazil, Ukraine-Germany wouldn't it be?

Italy and England suck. And I have faith in the German boys.


England don't suck! You're just proliferating the anti-England bias that infects the MSM!

Being the host certainly does give Germany an advantage but I don't think it will be enough to carry them past Argentina. As for the Ukraine....they have already achieved beyond their expectations and we may see their bubble burst. The Italians also always seem to have the ability to grind out the desired result when it comes to the crunch. As for Brazil-France, don't count out France. Brazil have failed to impress and for their talent a focussed French side could cause an upset. England vs Portugal? No contest, Sven's boys all the way! Two evenly matched teams for sure but the Portugese suspensions tilt the tie in England's favour. Being English I would say that though wouldn't I.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 27 June 2006 10:29 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M. Spector:
A challenge of what "type"? One where you slide on the ground in front of another player without touching the ball or the player? Exactly what type of challenge do you think is permissible in the penalty area?

In your own words he slid on the ground in front of another player, didn't touch the ball and ended up in a position where he was impeding the path of another player. The fact he didn't touch teh bal is immaterial, he 'challenged' the player. As for your second question, any legal challenge is acceptable in the penalty area. If you re-read my post you will see that I acknowldeged this but added that once you make any challenge in the penalty area the risk of a penalty is going to be high, however good the challenge turns out to be.

This is, of course, the "Godwin's Law" of soccer. When you find yourself defending an error made by a referee you have already lost the argument.

Bullshit. I just accept that their is a human element to officiating and that they will make mistakes from time to time. Give it a fancy name if you want though....

This is the World Cup. We expect world-class standards from the players, and we should accept nothing less than world-class standards from the referees. Players don't get excuses made for them when they make mistakes - they get red cards, goals scored against them, etc. But somehow when a referee makes a mistake we're supposed to just sit back and say "that referee's mistake changed the outcome of the match, but he's only human, so that's okay." There is no other sport on Earth where such an attitude would be considered reasonable.

You are obviously after some type of refereeing nirvana. You want referees to never make a bum call. Not going to happen. As for changing the outcome of the Italy-Aus game....Italy might have scored 10 seconds into extra time. You just don't know. Nobody knows.

Your statement about there 'being no other sport on Earth where such an attitude would be considered reasonable' is a little sanctimonius. How about a bad penalty call in hockey or a botched strike call in baseball. Come to think of it how about an incorrect LBW call in cricket or a completely loopy pass interference call in the CFL. All of these examples happen every week in the world of sport and all have the potential of changing the course of a game. To single out soccer is unfair.

I never advocated for "instant reviews". And in this case it was the referee's incorrect call that took away the flow and destroyed the game.

Never said you did advocate for instant reviews. Just thought I would add it to the discussion.

How can the last kick of the game destroy its flow? 93 minutes were already in the bag!

Of course, players have to accept that, because there is S.F.A. they can do about it.
But that doesn't make it right. In fact it makes a mockery of the "Fair Play" theme that FIFA is pushing constantly. And as I said above, there is no other sport on Earth where it would be considered reasonable to expect that the referee can single-handedly determine the outcome of the match by making a mistake, and expect all the players and spectators to just shrug their shoulders in impotence.

You obviously don't watch a lot of sport. I refer you to my previous answer.

That's what people do in oppressive military dictatorships; it's not a good business model for soccer.

And this must be your version of Godwin's Law; the first person to include a fatuous reference to military dictatorships in a discussion about sports has lost the argument.

Unless, of course, the diver is an Italian in the penalty area in a World Cup match.

You seem to be reacting like this is the first time this has happened in a World Cup match. Been happening for years, will continue to happen for years to come.....and not just in soccer either. As we have seen this year in the NHL, hockey is not immune to divers.

That's exactly what the referees tried to do throughout the first half of the tournament, and it didn't work. It reached its apotheosis in the Portugal-Holland match where the Russian referee booked everybody for everything and the game became a joke.

This is not going to be a quick fix over the space of a few games at the start of a tournament. To be effecive this approach needs to be extended to all leagues world wide over a number of years.

[ 27 June 2006: Message edited by: Jooge ]


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 28 June 2006 01:20 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"I think we have the ability to get the better of Italy:
quote:
Anything is possible in the match against the Italians, just as it was against the Swiss. If the guys focus on the game, we can emerge victorious.

Ukraine is a very young country and a very young democracy. It was also a young football team that beat Switzerland. This is of enormous importance to the entire nation. The political situation is still very fragile - after all, the fight for democracy was only won very recently. Football has played a key role in reducing crime and won over a lot of youngsters who are now aiming to become the next Shevchenko or Shovkovskiy. This victory also helps to raise the country’s profile across the world.

I am also flying the Ukrainian flag from my car. In fact, I am doing exactly the same thing as everyone else across the country. Old or young, male or female, the whole nation has been swept along by football fever.



From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 28 June 2006 07:50 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's not get too carried away, eh? "It's just a bunch of men knocking a ball about," as my mum is fond of saying. And if you look a little deeper you will discover that poorer teams are paying their players in the $10,000 to $20,000 range while rich teams, like England, are paying their players in the $300,000 to $500,000 range.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 28 June 2006 08:48 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Let's not get too carried away, eh? "It's just a bunch of men knocking a ball about," as my mum is fond of saying.

She's never heard of women's soccer?


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N.Beltov
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posted 28 June 2006 09:13 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mocking my mom, eh?

"I fart in your general direction."


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M. Spector
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posted 28 June 2006 10:21 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:
As for your second question, any legal challenge is acceptable in the penalty area. If you re-read my post you will see that I acknowldeged this but added that once you make any challenge in the penalty area the risk of a penalty is going to be high, however good the challenge turns out to be.
Your entire post is bullshit, but this one example will suffice to illustrate that.

You are defending the idea that players who make a good (i.e. perfectly legal) challenge in their penalty area may be penalized nonetheless. This is obviously a true statement, given what happened in the match we are talking about. But you are trying to say this is how it should be, not how it is.

You are defending an arbitrary and unpredictable system whereby a player who plays correctly may expect nevertheless to be penalized. Maybe this is fair play in the parallel universe you seem to inhabit, but on Earth it's different. Here we reserve the right to call bullshit on the referee (and all his sycophantic apologists) when they punish players unjustly. We don't expect them to be perfect, but when they screw up we reserve the right to complain and demand that there be consequences.

How can a person of good conscience do otherwise (I ask rhetorically because I don't expect you to have a clue what I am talking about)?


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 28 June 2006 02:08 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by M. Spector:
Your entire post is bullshit, but this one example will suffice to illustrate that.

You are defending the idea that players who make a good (i.e. perfectly legal) challenge in their penalty area may be penalized nonetheless. This is obviously a true statement, given what happened in the match we are talking about. But you are trying to say this is how it should be, not how it is.

I am not saying this is how it should be, just that this is how it is. There is a BIG difference between the two. In an ideal world all illegal challenges would be penlaised and every legal challenge would go unpenalised. We do not live in a perfect world though and you can pontificate all you want about how the referees should be perfect and never make a bum call, but it won't change the simple fact that they are human and will make mistakes. Ideal? No. Realistic? Yes.

You are defending an arbitrary and unpredictable system whereby a player who plays correctly may expect nevertheless to be penalized. Maybe this is fair play in the parallel universe you seem to inhabit, but on Earth it's different. Here we reserve the right to call bullshit on the referee (and all his sycophantic apologists) when they punish players unjustly. We don't expect them to be perfect, but when they screw up we reserve the right to complain and demand that there be consequences.

I really get the feeling that you haven't watched much soccer. Could be wrong, but just a feeling.

What consequences are you after? The referee doesn't get to officiate at the internatinal level? Thsi is already in place? Replay the game? Not going to happen.

This abitrary and unpredictable system you refer to is called S P O R T. Its not human rights, its not politics and it aint a fiscal imbalance. Its a game played by humans and refereed by humans. Sure there will be players who dive and referees who make incorrect calls. Sure you'll have your opportunity to carp on about how bad a referee played. Nobody will deny you that but If you want a 'perfect' game though then go get some fucking robots to play for you. For myself, I prefer the passion, the excitement, the uncertainty that you only get with the human element.

How can a person of good conscience do otherwise (I ask rhetorically because I don't expect you to have a clue what I am talking about)?

You lose the argument when you resort to personal insults you know.

You can choose to get held up on one or two bad decisions in a game or you can choose to accept that referees get it right 95% plus of the time. We ask them to judge a game knowing that they are not infallable and they will make mistakes. We accept this knowing that the vast majority of the time that the screw ups won't effect the outcome of the game, but also knowing that on the old occassion it will. If you can't accept that basic premise then please do yourself a favour and don't watch any more games. Doing this will (a) not leave you disappointed when a bad call is made and (b) lower your blood pressure and prolong your life.


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 28 June 2006 05:16 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Friggin' hell. Some people wake up in the morning looking for a fight don't they? It was my team who lost to a questionable ref decision, yet even I couldn't bring myself to dish out the crap this M. Spector dickhead is spewing.

Jooge, what have you done to offend this fruitcake? Because unless you have his dog's testicles in a jar on your mantlepiece, I can't imagine any sane reason why you deserve his rants.

As N. Beltov said,

quote:

Let's not get too carried away, eh?
quote:


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 28 June 2006 05:28 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Walker:
Friggin' hell. etc.
For someone who's admittedly "not that knowledgeable" about soccer you sure have an attitude, don't you?

Maybe you don't understand what the argument is about because, like Jooge, you don't know shit about soccer.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
clersal
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posted 28 June 2006 05:45 PM      Profile for clersal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The flu
From: Canton Marchand, Québec | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Walker
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posted 28 June 2006 06:38 PM      Profile for Walker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
For someone who's admittedly "not that knowledgeable" about soccer you sure have an attitude, don't you?

Maybe you don't understand what the argument is about because, like Jooge, you don't know shit about soccer.


Blah, blah, blah.
I have an attitude?

Your posts are all just subjective opinion on how you think the game should be played, officiated etc. Funnily enough, just like everyone's opinion, except that you, as the Lord of all that is Right, will not accept any other.

Now, I don't have your rampant paranoia to drive me to search every single post you have ever made to uncover supposed deficiencies in your arguments. No need anyway- let's go to the replay for just one pigheaded, head-in-the-clouds comment:

quote:

Maybe this is fair play in the parallel universe you seem to inhabit, but on Earth it's different. Here we reserve the right to call bullshit on the referee (and all his sycophantic apologists) when they punish players unjustly. We don't expect them to be perfect, but when they screw up we reserve the right to complain and demand that there be consequences.
quote:

Now, I don't know how much YOU know about Football, esp. the World Cup, but you can jump up and down and pout and scream and whine all you want, but it ain't gonna change a decision like this- even in your so-called REAL WORLD.
There has in fact been a variety of opinions about that fateful penalty in the media- some for, some against, and many saying that it is a matter of judgement as to how any referee would have reacted to the situation.

If you want to live in a perfect world with perfect refs making perfect decisions every time, I've got just the game for you:


From: Not Canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 June 2006 07:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, golly, would you just look at the length of this thread!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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