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Author Topic: Celebrating the villain Columbus
ReeferMadness
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posted 11 October 2003 11:30 PM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Columbus Day holiday should be abolished. Documents on the misdeeds of this pirate/conquistador in the Caribbean prove he is unworthy of having honors bestowed upon him. Columbus believed in his own "god-given" superiority and the inferiority of the dark-skinned, non-Christian natives. He imposed a system of forced labor where he worked them till death. There is also documented evidence that Columbus butchered those who failed to meet their quota of gold. Columbus was directly involved in murdering and enslaving natives and played a leading role in the destruction of their cultures. Columbus set a precedent; in his wake came Cortez, Pizarro, and all the other gold-hungry Spanish conquistadors to continue the perpetuation of these horrendous atrocities. The Spaniards imposed the infamous "requiriemento" of the Spanish crown. The Indians were given a choice to either accept the Christian god or be tortured to death. Ultimately, the European invasion and conquest of the New World wiped out more than 90 percent of the population.

What is at issue here is what Christopher Columbus and the holiday stand for. Columbus Day, also known as Discovery Day, symbolizes conquest, genocide, and racism. Columbus Day is nothing more than a remembrance of the Western holocaust of 100 million indigenous peoples. For native Americans, it is a day of mourning and the anniversary of the beginning of the European conquest of their world without borders. To celebrate Columbus Day and view this barbaric exploiter as a hero indicates the level of insensitivity, disrespect, and racism in our society for the original inhabitants of this land.


More Here

Does anyone dispute the assertions in this article? If not, why would anyone celebrate this?


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 13 October 2003 12:37 AM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Columbus isn't here to answer the charges.
There are other views.

Bad Eagle


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 12:45 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have no particular beef with what ReeferMadness is saying except to note that it is not really legitimate to judge historical characters outside of the moral sociological context of their own times. Having said that, Americans worship the guy, and have a holiday in his honour right here in these times. Should we remember this anniversary? Absolutely, but remember it more as an occasion of sad and sober reflection on what was wrought. Teach the whole story to kids in school.

Anyone who is interested in this sort of thing may enjoy the novel by Orson Scott Card, Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus. As a fantasy SF novel it's a good read, and it also deals with this very topic in a thoughtful and certainly unique manner.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 13 October 2003 02:13 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I have no particular beef with what ReeferMadness is saying

I'm actually not saying anything. When I was growing up, I was taught wonderful things about Columbus but it's only recently that I became aware of claims like this one. I was just wondering whether anyone challenged the accuracy of what is in the posting.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 13 October 2003 02:25 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Columbus isn't here to answer the charges.
There are other views.

Neither is Hitler and there are other views about him, too.

The question I asked was whether the charges against Columbus was true. Your link really didn't say anything about it.


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 10:57 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm actually not saying anything.

Oh. Well if you were, then gosh darn it I'd defend it to the death.

Speaking of not saying anything, Dr. David Yeagley uses up an awful lot of space to do just that.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mush
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posted 13 October 2003 11:05 AM      Profile for Mush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From BadEagle:

quote:

These Indians have forgotten their own war tactics. They have been misdirected by communist racial agitators.

yep...communist agitators behind every sweat lodge.

Sheesh.


From: Mrs. Fabro's Tiny Town | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 11:06 AM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some further research suggests that Dr. Yeagley is a bombastic right wing extreemist whack job.

quote:
Any country or person harboring a known terrorist must face annihilation. Any person or country purposely contributing to terrorism must face extinction. It's simple. This is what American people want to hear.

Well, let them hear it from a Comanche Indian.

I declare war.

Are there any warriors left in Washington? If so, let them show themselves now. If not, let those in power be forever remembered as people without moral character, without resolve, and without respect.

I call upon all Indians everywhere to put our hearts on the warpath.

Don't try to remove all Indian warrior mascots from schools and universities.

We need warriors!

Let Indians be first among the new American patriots!

Keep every warrior mascot there is! Make more of them! Educate the country about warrior-hood. Let people know what the great Indian warriors did for their people. If Americans really want to use Indian images on army badges, helicopters, police cars, and sports teams, then let's remind them all what Indians can really be.

My red brothers, this could be our greatest moment since we saved the Pilgrims.

This is our chance to reclaim our original preeminence in the American social consciousness. We were their host, guide, and savior in the beginning.

Let's do it again.


http://www.radicalacademy.com/studentrefpolitics22l.htm

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: oldgoat ]


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 13 October 2003 01:28 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
His rave doesn't quite have the resonating ring of "Death to America!", but there you have it. You sure put that Comanche whackjob in his place.

[ 13 October 2003: Message edited by: EarthShadow ]


From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You sure put that Comanche whackjob in his place.

Thankyou Earthshadow. Someone had to. My guess is that there's no small number of Comanches that would like to put him in his place. Perhaps even a Ute or two.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 October 2003 04:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Perhaps even a Ute or two.

*cough*

I believe "y-o-u-t-h" is the correct spelling.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 04:40 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 13 October 2003 04:45 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
three!

quote:
Some further research suggests that Dr. Yeagley is a bombastic right wing extreemist whack job.

Yes but oldgoat, you say that as though it were a negative thing.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
saskganesh
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posted 13 October 2003 07:35 PM      Profile for saskganesh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
get pissed off about columbus day? at least its not cortes day.

whether one believes columbus was a (old school) hero or (revisionism school) villain, his day is worth marking to recognise and commemerate the meeting of two civilizations.

anyway, its thanksgiving here. so maybe not worry about somebody else's holiday. in the states most people are working, its just a bank holday.


From: regina | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
.
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posted 13 October 2003 08:39 PM      Profile for .     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People objecting to the Columbus Day holiday can protest by going to work.
From: so close to america, so far from god | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
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posted 13 October 2003 09:25 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
People objecting to the Columbus Day holiday can protest by going to work.

Or by taking the first plane or boat back to where in Europe their ancestors came from.


From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
oldgoat
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posted 13 October 2003 09:42 PM      Profile for oldgoat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

Or by taking the first plane or boat back to where in Europe their ancestors came from.


That would leave me having to choose between Ireland and The Netherlands. Sounds good. People have had worse dilemas.


From: The 10th circle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
EarthShadow
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posted 13 October 2003 11:44 PM      Profile for EarthShadow        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not me, I'm staying put, and I don't feel guilty.
From: somewhere in a circle | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 13 October 2003 11:58 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The British Colonialists were fortunate to have the Spanish about, so that years later their decendants can say, "At least we weren't as bad as the Spanish."


But what was it about the Spanish that drove them to such horrors in central and south America? Did the reconquest of Spain from the Moors put a viscious edge on Spanish Culture? Was it the Inquisition? Was it the presence of gold as opposed to the more pedestrian riches in British Colonies?

I dunno. I just look back at history, and think that if I was a native person, and was given the dilema of who to be conquered by, my last choice would have been the Spanish.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
.
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posted 14 October 2003 12:52 AM      Profile for .     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Columbus Day was declared a US federal holiday in 1971. It has little to do with celebrating Columbus and a lot to do with an attempt by Nixon and the US Congress to get Italian-American votes.
From: so close to america, so far from god | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
ReeferMadness
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posted 14 October 2003 02:07 AM      Profile for ReeferMadness     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
whether one believes columbus was a (old school) hero or (revisionism school) villain, his day is worth marking to recognise and commemerate the meeting of two civilizations.

MEETING OF TWO CIVILIZATIONS???!!!

If what the article claims is true and there was a "Western holocaust of 100 million indigenous peoples", we're talking about probably the largest act of genocide in history. Is anyone going to challenge the accuracy of what's being claimed or is it enough to wallow in moral relativism and call anyone who wants to look at what actually happened a "revisionist".


From: Way out there | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 14 October 2003 02:31 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course in this country, the town of Amherstburg cellebrates a man who engaged in biological warfare.

Amherst, Small Pox and Pontiac


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 14 October 2003 03:54 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That Amherst college plate with the British cavalry soldier chasing the Natives on foot is scary indeed! http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/plate.jpg
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 October 2003 07:53 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oldgoat:
I have no particular beef with what ReeferMadness is saying except to note that it is not really legitimate to judge historical characters outside of the moral sociological context of their own times. Having said that, Americans worship the guy, and have a holiday in his honour right here in these times. Should we remember this anniversary? Absolutely, but remember it more as an occasion of sad and sober reflection on what was wrought. Teach the whole story to kids in school.

Agreed. Too bad we don't do the same with racists like Nelly McClung. Some Canadian feminists (not me) worship HER, and I've seen some people get quite defensive when the whole story about her is told.

It's true that it's difficult to judge historical figures by today's standards. But there are some things that certain historical figures believed that are repugnant, and the fact that they believed it "long ago" should not stop us from highlighting it when the "hero worship" of that person starts.

This is why I refuse to make any historical or current political figure a "hero" in my mind. When you make someone a hero, you turn off your critical thinking about that person.

That said, Columbus Day is a marking of something momentous in American history. I would agree with oldgoat - mark it but tell the WHOLE story and quit turning it into a big hero-worship-stars-and-stripes-forever day.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 14 October 2003 09:19 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This is why I refuse to make any historical or current political figure a "hero" in my mind. When you make someone a hero, you turn off your critical thinking about that person.

Right on, Michelle.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Platosdad
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posted 14 October 2003 01:26 PM      Profile for Platosdad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This is why I refuse to make any historical or current political figure a "hero" in my mind. When you make someone a hero, you turn off your critical thinking about that person.

Question: Should this not work in reverse, then? So when Arnold Schwarzenegger makes comments favourable about Hitler, should we immediately jump all over him? If I recall correctly (tee hee, pun intended) Arnold praised Hitler's speaking style and "what he was able to accomplish" or something like that. It's reasonable to argue that Hitler's accomplishments were made on the coattails of his own anti-Semitism, but it's also reasonable to argue that there were advancements in German society unrelated to the anti-Jewish policies.

(As I write this, I find myself trying to make sure I word this correctly, knowing full well that I will be accused of being a Hitler fan. Insert standard disclaimer here: I don't deny the holocaust, nor do I support any anti-Semitism.)

The point I'm trying to make is that ANY black-and-white, good-and-evil distinction is invariably wrong. We should be able to distinguish legitimate accomplishments/attributes from those things that turn our stomachs. No?


From: On the drive to insane.... | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 14 October 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Huh? You mean Colombus dicovered America?? Brain wash me please, I feel left out.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Polunatic
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posted 14 October 2003 05:16 PM      Profile for Polunatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
anyway, its thanksgiving here. so maybe not worry about somebody else's holiday

Had an interesting discussion with a friend about Thanksgiving. I told her that as a child we never celebrated it because it was seen as a Christian holiday and we were Jewish.

She told me that it wasn't religious but was all about giving thanks to the First Nations for the assistance they provided the settlers. I asked how that was recognized but got no answer (i.e. it wasn't). Does anyone acknowledge First Nations peoples in their Thanksgiving get-togethers?


From: middle of nowhere | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged

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