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QUEBEC (CP) - Conservative Leader Stephen Harper is proposing to make Canada more like Belgium, saying he would like to split some federal authority between Canada's two main language groups.

In a speech to party supporters Friday, Harper suggested he would like a future Conservative government to give some federal power to new community institutions set up by English-and French-speaking Canadians.

Instead of the provinces getting more power, the linguistic groups could have some jurisdiction over communications, broadcasting and international relations, he said.

"In Belgium, for example, federal authority is shared not only by geographical regions, but also according to linguistic communities," Harper said.

"Instead of giving more authority to provinces in areas like culture or international relations, the federal government could, in concert with the provinces and especially Quebec, establish francophone and anglophone community institutions in areas of jurisdiction like telecommunications and broadcasting."

Before his speech, Harper also showed some interest in a recent proposal by the Action democratique du Quebec to turn Quebec into an "autonomous state" within Canada.

"We'll take a look at the latest proposals from the ADQ," he said. "For the most part, they're all within the existing constitutional framework of the country.

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http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/041015/n1015118A.html

[ 20 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Originally posted by radiorahim:
Harper wants to turn Canada into Belgium eh?

I'd like to turn Harper into a toad

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Turning Harper into a toad would be like turning Paul Martin into the prime minister or Jack Layton into the NDP leader.

His alliance with the Bloc on the throne speech amendments was not an accident, apparently. And those who said "he'll have to back off, the West won't stand for him cosying up to Quebec nationalists" were underestimating him.

Beyond that, the Bloc is a socialist party led by a reformed Marxist, whereas the Reformatories are a party of retrograde garbage led by a neoconservative GOP ass piece.

[ 19 October 2004: Message edited by: NDP Newbie ]

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
This speech is, according to Paul Wells, curiously missing from their website.

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"There is not a single active federal politician now willing to say "I speak for Canada." I would add, nor for Canadians.

Belgium, eh? Like our pollution isn't bad enough already?

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/erde/0,1518,grossbild-398129-322892,00.html

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Originally posted by Doug:
We'd have better chocolate, I suppose.

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http://tinyurl.com/56gj4

(that article also has a great bit on the ongoing grudge match between Peter Mackay and Scott Brison)

Martin, meanwhile, has responded that "I think the role of the prime minister of Canada is not to build a better Belgium, it's to build a stronger Canada,"

http://tinyurl.com/4x9ne

"Jack Layton and Canada’s NDP will build trust
through commitment and flexibility by... recognizing the fundamental differences that constitute Quebec being a nation within Canada and working with Quebec to obtain common objectives with equitable outcomes, with the option of Quebec opting out of new federal programs with compensation to pursue common objectives and standards in a provincial program."

I know the NDP have historically supported deux nations / special status, but isn't there an opportunity here with the Liberals embracing "asymmetrical federalism", the Tories embracing decentralization and the "Belgian waffle", and the Bloc supporting outright separation for the NDP to appeal to the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party by speaking out for a strong national government?

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Originally posted by andalusia:
If we would just write off the pipe dream of a breakthrough in Quebec we could win tonnes of Sheila Copps-Lloyd Axworthy style Liberals over to our side in English Canada.

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Originally posted by andalusia:

I know the NDP have historically supported deux nations / special status, but isn't there an opportunity here with the Liberals embracing "asymmetrical federalism", the Tories embracing decentralization and the "Belgian waffle", and the Bloc supporting outright separation for the NDP to appeal to the Trudeau wing of the Liberal Party by speaking out for a strong national government?

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Originally posted by andalusia:
. . . the option of Quebec opting out of new federal programs with compensation to pursue common objectives and standards in a provincial program.

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Out of NEW federal programs, is the NDP position. That's asymetical federalism.

Harper has gone a big step further, to the "associated states" model. He cites several nationalist or autonomist but non-separatist proposals, and says

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Our challenge as Conservatives is to develop new proposals for addressing Quebec's unique concerns . . .

In Belgium, for example, federal authority has been divided not just with geographically based regions, but also with lingusitic communities as well.

I want my party to consider how this model could be adapted to Canada.

Rather than devolving more power to the provinces in areas like cultural affairs and international relations, perhaps the federal government, working with the provinces and particularly with Quebec, could establish Francophone and Anglophone Community institutions for jurisdictions in areas like the CRTC and the CBC, or the Francophonie, the Commonwealth and UNESCO.

The Belgian model and the experience of other countries could guide us. . .

. . . this kind of devolution would allow/recognize arrangements tailored more to Quebec's needs, but in ways that strengthen the relationship between French-speaking Canadians across the country. . . it also provides some meaningful recognition of/ voice to English Canada . . . without devolving authority that few in Anglophone provincial capitals are actually seeking.

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In Belgium, as a result of the 1993 constitutional revision that furthered devolution, there are now four levels of government (federal, 3 linguistic communities, 3 regions, and 10 provinces) with a complex division of responsibilities. Not to mention 589 communal (municipal) administrations.

The 3 linguistic communities aren't the same as the 3 regions.

The capital is one bilingual region, Flanders (Flemish-speaking) is a second, and Wallonia (mostly French-speaking, but with a German-speaking province) is the third. The 3 regions have largely economic competences.

The three linguistic Communities each have their own parliaments and ministries.
The French Community manages:

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all of the matters allocated to it by the Constitution and the institutional reform laws, i.e. in short, matters related to the individual and using the language.

These matters currently come under the sectors of culture, education, research and training, health (exclusively preventative medicine), assistance to young people, infrastructures, sport and international relations.

Culture:

The performing arts (theatre - music - dance), Cultural heritage, the Visual arts, Literature, Books and Languages, Libraries, Continuing education and policies related to Young People, Audiovisual and Multimedia matters.

Education, research and training:

Education (primary, basic, secondary, special, university and non-university higher, social promotion, distance, artistic), PMS (Psycho-Medico-Social) Centres and maintenance allowances, Basic scientific research developed in universities, FNRS (National Fund for Scientific Research) and associated Funds (FRSM (Fund for Medical Scientific Research), IISN (Inter-University Institute for Nuclear Sciences), FRIA (Fund for Training in Research in Industry and Agriculture)), Concerted Research Action, Special Funds for Research in universities and Funds for joint basic scientific research.

Individual matters:

Assistance to Young People and Children, Health (school medical examination, health promotion, early childhood policy, university hospitals, disabled policy) and Sport (support for the practice and promotion of sport, ADEPS (Authority for Physical Education and Sport)).

Intra-Belgian relations and international relations:

Co-operation with the Communities and Regions and international co-operation.

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The French Community has 94 Members of Parliament:

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with a 5 year mandate. The unique thing about them is that they are not elected directly. As a matter of fact, the Wallonia-Brussels French Community Parliament is made up of the 75 members of the Wallonia Regional Council and 19 members from the Brussels-Capital Regional Council, who are delegated by it.

The current political majority in the French Community Parliament is made up of the PRL (Liberal Reform Party) - FDF (French Speakers' Democratic Front) - MCC (Movement of Citizens for Change), the Parti socialiste (Belgian Socialist Party) and the Parti Ecolo (Belgian Green Party), whereas the Sociaux-chrétiens (Social Christian Party) sit on the opposition benches. This majority gives the Government of the French Community, which is made up of 7 ministers, its political confidence.

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Canadians are left wondering why you, who have spent the past decade fueling the fires of western alienation, are handing Separatists all they desire? Canadians are left wondering what is quid pro quo? What will the west demand from Quebec in return for a Quebec constitution? What is the real end game in this Harper-Landry alliance?

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Originally posted by remind:
There also would be every ethnicity being self determining. That ought to make things function very well, eh.

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Surely not... race-based????!!?!?!?!

Good heavens, is Stephen Harper on crack?

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...Mr. Harper you talk about the "new Canadian reality" but in truth if you and Mr. Landry continue down this road Canada simply wont be a reality...

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In short, this was a compromise between the 10-equal-provinces dogma and the two-peoples one that would appeal to neither side. Like I say, if you make too many compromises, at one time, you compromise yourself... works better in French "à force de faire des compromis, on finit par se compromettre". Just another example of the stupidity of the "let's aim at the average in a very polarized debate to get the maximum of votes" school of thought.

BTW, don't give up on Québec, in the last environics poll, the NDP's at 16% in Québec.
http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=563

[ 20 October 2004: Message edited by: simonvallee ]

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Quebec separatists and Alberta rightwingers share the same goal and have done for years; to decentralize Canada so they can have more power.

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Originally posted by simonvallee:
BTW, don't give up on Québec, in the last environics poll, the NDP's at 16% in Québec.
http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=563

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Here's where Contratrian and I agree. Indeed, these two groups backed Bay Street to sell us out with the FTA. Any further enfeebling of Canada is always a good thing to these folks.

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If you were better informed on the Québec movement, you'd know that the financial elite in Canada and in Québec backs the federalist Liberals and not the sovereignist movement. Our goal isn't to "weaken" Canada, it's to establish Québec sovereignty, if you want to have a province-less Canada, no problem, as long as you don't touch to Québec. For example, Duceppe isn't actually in favor of decentralization like Harper is, he simply supports the "special status" idea that Québec should be apart and more autonomous.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Quebec separatists and Alberta rightwingers share the same goal and have done for years; to decentralize Canada so they can have more power.

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Quebec already does this to an extent. It essentially ignores the Canada Health Act.

If we are going to have assymmetrical federalism we have to change the way we chose the government.

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The problem with assymetrical federalism is that Quebec because of its population has 1/4 of the federal seats and up until the 1990s was able to pick the winner of the federal election by delivering 70 or so seats. Assymetrical federalism allows Quebec to influence federal policy across the country but at the same time exempt itself from this policy.

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I see how that could annoy some people. But the present situation also annoys a lot of people. The best solution would be sovereignty, everybody's happy on their side of the frontier, able to do as they please. Still, very few takers in Canada.

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Quebec already does this to an extent. It essentially ignores the Canada Health Act.

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We don't, at least not more than Ontario or Alberta. At least I assume you're talking about private health care, well let me tell you this little secret: the parallel system is already present throughout Canada, it's not specific to Québec.

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The other question is whether Quebec would accept other provinces getting the same powers it has or wants. Saskatchewan as a distinct society?

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But the present situation also annoys a lot of people.

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What part of the present situation annoys people?

Joe Clark was not fluent in French when he was PM. Paul Martin, while quite good, is quite obviously speaking a second language.

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1. The unwritten requirement that every other Prime Minister (at least Liberal ones) must be from Quebec?

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It's no requirement. It just so happens, not our fault really if we're better politicians .

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2. That every other governor general must be from Quebec?

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People still care enough about the GG to be annoyed by the GG? I mean except its uselessness and its cost.

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3. That 1/3 of the Supreme Court have to come from Quebec?

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Our demographic weight would "ask" for 2.25 judges, one more or less.

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4. The dismissal as a viable Prime Minister of any English Canadian politician who is not completely fluent in French?

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Tell me, what would be the chances of an unilingual francophone aspirant to the PM post? So don't whine about the fact that francos hesitate to vote for people who don't respect them enough to learn French.

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Originally posted by simonvallee:
1- That the federal keeps Québec cash-strapped.
2- That assimilation of francophones is at an all-time high.
3- That Québec's popular will is subjected to the veto of another nation.
4- That Québec's autonomy is not respected enough while the RoC thinks it's too respected.
5- That Québec controls directly less than half the money it generates while the RoC thinks that Québec has too much control over too much money.

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1 through 5 are all myths.

I have never heard ANYONE in RoC complain about 5. In any event, EVEN IF THIS IS TRUE, is Quebec noticeably different from any other province in this regard?

Ditto #4? Is SK's "autonomy" dealt with differently from Quebec's?

Assimilation: look at the census. Quebec's francophone character is doing very, very good, and the language is very healthy.

Quebec's popular will is not subject to anyone's veto (nor is any other province's) simply by virtue of the other nine provinces, three territories, and the federal government standing up for its side in any highly hypothetical separation vote.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
Joe Clark was not fluent in French when he was PM.

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Our standards have improved. Joe's French was better than either Mike Pearson or John Diefenbaker.

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Originally posted by Wilfred Day:
Our standards have improved. Joe's French was better than either Mike Pearson or John Diefenbaker.

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I had a hard time convincing him that the number between sept and neuf is not pronounced "reet," because that's what his teacher taught them.

1) People, it's spelled a-s-y-m-m-etric. As in, "there's no ass in asymmetric."

2) Simonvallee, you say that "Québec nationalists I've seen have very badly reacted to the plan." I think that's the idea. This seems to be aimed at federalists (as you say, it undermines Quebec as a nation), and it sure seems a hell of a lot more federalist than Martin sending Quebec to represent Canada at UNESCO meetings. It's also much more federalist than Chretien's trying to buy Quebec's loyalty with its own money in the sponsorship/ad scandals.

What is a "trial walloon"? Oh I get it, his trial firewall.

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Originally posted by CoryWillis:
3) It seems Babblers are no less divided on how to handle Quebec than Conservatives. That's much more realistic than the beginning of this thread, which was just silly cheap shots at Harper and Belgium. I don't think much of his "trial Walloon" but it's at least worth discussing.

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Originally posted by remind:
Cheaps shots where?

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Harper as a toad and a load of crap about chocolate, mainly.

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What is a "trial walloon"? Oh I get it, his trial firewall.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
I knew a guy who took French in high school in Dallas.

I had a hard time convincing him that the number between sept and neuf is not pronounced "reet," because that's what his teacher taught them.

"I know it's spelled 'huit' but it's pronounced 'reet.'"

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And Cory, if you can't handle the way Harper has been treated in this thread, I don't think babble is for you. Little things like "homosexuality isn't an orientation, it's a behaviour" and "gays and lesbians aren't protected by the Charter" tend to lead people to speak quite unkindly about him.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
And Cory, if you can't handle the way Harper has been treated in this thread, I don't think babble is for you. Little things like "homosexuality isn't an orientation, it's a behaviour" and "gays and lesbians aren't protected by the Charter" tend to lead people to speak quite unkindly about him.

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Trudeau's bilingualism policy isn't working

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Originally posted by venus_man:
What a wimp.

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Originally posted by Briguy:

It isn't? We've gone from roughly 1.5 million bilingual (English-French) citizens in 1971 to roughly 5 million in 1991. I don't know the specific number from the 2001 census, but I'd bet that it is still increasing. Sounds like a success story to me.

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The COST of bilingualism to administer and enforce in terms of lost productivity and direct government funding is far greater than whatever perceived benefit you refer to as a "success story".

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Originally posted by CoryWillis:
Thanks, RB, I think I'll decide if Babble is for me. But I don't care for ad hominem attacks -- disagree with the message, not the messenger.

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The COST of bilingualism to administer and enforce in terms of lost productivity ...

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Originally posted by Hinterland:

Everyone prepare themselves for links to the Fraser Institute or the Canadian Taxpayers Federation (...or some old thing from APEC) that categorically proves the statement quoted above. We haven't had that in a few weeks, and I'm pretty sure everyone wants to revisit this perenially baseless canard regarding bilingualism, if only out of pure nostalgia.

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Right. It costs nothing for manufacturers to use up half of their marketing real estate for french on cereal boxes in Alberta

It costs nothing for Air Canada to provide all its services in both languages on flights from Vancouver to Calgary even though there are usually 10X more Chinese speaking people than french speaking people on those flights. Your sarcasm is does a disservice to Canada.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: ferrethouse ]

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Originally posted by Briguy:

is a canard which has never really been proven.

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Originally posted by ferrethouse:
Right. It costs nothing for manufacturers to use up half of their marketing real estate for french on cereal boxes in Alberta

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I'd thought even the looniest of the anti-blingualism bunch had advanced beyond being offended by bilingual cereal boxes by now.

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Right. It costs nothing for manufacturers to use up half of their marketing real estate for french on cereal boxes in Alberta

It costs nothing for Air Canada to provide all its services in both languages on flights from Vancouver to Calgary even though there are usually 10X more Chinese speaking people than french speaking people on those flights. Your sarcasm is does a disservice to Canada.

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Marketing real estate? If they didn't print the French on it, you can bet they'd waste their money on printing something far more useless and socially irrelevant.

And Ferrethouse, don't even try to start giving me the impression you know exactly the linguistic makeup of trans-continental flights in Canada. You'll only indicate that you make up stuff to prove a point.

...gee, they're always from London, aren't they? When I lived there, it was a (mostly boring) case study in Canadian parochialism.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Some people don't require "proof" to understand what essentially amounts to common sense.

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[Note that I am not defending Trudeau of the War Measures Act, which our new friend is talking about in another thread that he started.]

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]

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How is bi-lingualism worth every penny? Particularily in western Canada?

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It is the greatest system yet found for exposing politicians as intolerant bigots, lest we elect them without knowing this about them. As it has helped keep Preston Manning, Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper out of office, for that reason alone it is worth every penny spent on it.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Originally posted by ferrethouse:

It costs nothing for Air Canada to provide all its services in both languages on flights from Vancouver to Calgary even though there are usually 10X more Chinese speaking people than french speaking people on those flights.

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I do have to point out that airlines aren't perhaps the best example here, since most airlines, Canadian or not, seem to provide more than one language. (I can't speak about the American ones, since I haven't flown on any, but lots of European ones lately...) They aren't all French/English, and they certainly aren't based on a poll of who's on the plane. They make announcements in two languages, English, and another, depending on the airline. Does this cost more? Not at all, it simply adds criteria to their hiring process.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Jenny ]

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Still with the personal attacks, but no answers.
You would think debating someone as dumb as me would be fairly easy. Hmmmm.

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Find your own answers, OS. No one owes you responses to your empty-headed musings.

It doesn't. People can say what they wish (within the limits of both the law and babble's rules) but no one has to answer or engage in pointless discussion.

Furthermore, I gave a direct reply to why it is worth every penny. If TOS wishes others to debate him, he should at least have the courtesy to respond to those who do.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

The sad thing is that despite all the money spent on bilingualism since the 1960s it is still possible to attend and graduate from university knowing only English and I count myself as one of those people (despite getting an A in French 12).

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

It is the greatest system yet found for exposing politicians as intolerant bigots, lest we elect them without knowing this about them. As it has helped keep Preston Manning, Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper out of office, for that reason alone it is worth every penny spent on it.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: RealityBites ]

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Do you also write "bi-cycle," "bi-sexual," and "bi-fid?" Most people, when as clearly obsessed with a subject as you are with bilingualism, make the effort to learn how to spell it.

Is this an attempt to show us the money would have been better spent in tutoring you?

"Bi-lingualism"

"Ky-oto"

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
What happened to questioning authority?

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Originally posted by remind:
According to Reality Bites link, Belgium has 102% debt servicing from the GDP as opposed to Canada's 77%, yep we surely need to model ourselves after them.

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Anyone can balance a budget. Conservative politicians in the States did so in leading up to 1929 and world-wide failure of laissez faire capitalism. Mauru and East Timor are debt free. Socialist Norway has no external debt.

Before Tommy Douglas, Saskatchewan had about 130 miles of paved roads. Tommy added thousands of miles of paved highway and roads. And TC Douglas balanced a budget for 17 years straight in Saskatchewan.

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There also would be every ethnicity being self determining. That ought to make things function very well, eh.

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And Ferrethouse, don't even try to start giving me the impression you know exactly the linguistic makeup of trans-continental flights in Canada.

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
In other words there are very few real arguements that you can make in favour of spending money on bi-lingualism.

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Because a quarter of the country speaks French.
Because it's good customer service for the government to have people providing services in a variety of languages.
Because it facilitates mutual understanding between different parts of the country.

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:

You're not an authority on anything.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:

I'd thought even the looniest of the anti-blingualism bunch had advanced beyond being offended by bilingual cereal boxes by now.

I wonder if our little ferret thinks it somehow saves money to produce English-only, French-only and bilingual cereal boxes instead.

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Marketing is effective and if they can put twice as much advertising on on their boxes for english canada then yes it is an opportunity cost.

i can't believe you think there isn't an opportunity cost to only having half the product to advertise on. lol.

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
Wasn't somebody asking what a troll looked like?

[Note that I am not defending Trudeau of the War Measures Act, which our new friend is talking about in another thread that he started.]

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
So training civil servants to speak french is free, as in cost no money or time? So learning french to get a civil service job is the best posible use of time and resources? There is nothing more useful that could be learned with the same time and expense?
Yippee for political correctness!

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i find the intellectual level of debate much higher at FD.

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Prove it.

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
The Oatmeal Savage's posts are free, but they aren't even worth that (although the refreshing absence of Canadian Taxpayers Federation links is duly noted).

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
[QB]No, in other words, I think you're stupid and not worth the time.

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Originally posted by ferrethouse:

Oh. Is my advertising "costing" your forum? Perhaps I should advertise my forum in both french and english. lol. this is toooo easy.

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Damn good idea. As the moderators will be pointing out to you soon, advertising on babble costs money. You will have the choice of purchasing some, knocking it off, or being banned.

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You mean guys like Parizeau as well?

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Originally posted by ferrethouse:
i can't believe you think there isn't an opportunity cost to only having half the product to advertise on. lol.

this is really elementary. i find the intellectual level of debate much higher at FD.

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And I can't believe you're stupid enough to think that opportunity outweighs the costs of triple packaging in a small market.

Recently at the supermarket I noticed a new cleaning product was labelled in English, French and Spanish. There is no requirement anywhere in the United States for Spanish labelling, yet somehow this manufacturer thought using a label that would allow the product to be sold anywhere in North America outweight the "marketing opportunities" of separate packaging.

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Do you want me to look up the census data for major cities in western Canada? I will if you insist on keeping your blinders on. Oh, but let me guess, asians don't fly on airplanes? lol.

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Please do look up the census data for all census metropolitan areas and census agglomerations in Canada (since were talking about national airlines, restricting the investigation to Western Canada is not appropriate) and correlate these data with the travel by flight rates of the populations within the census you're looking at. Then do a cost-benefit analysis to indicate whether or not airlines are in fact wasting money providing services in both official languages and whether airlines would improve their net profit/loss ratios by a) providing service in one official language only - English; b) providing service in one official language only - French; c) a combination of one official language only (English or French) and a non-official language and; d) Service in one (or more) non-official language. Then relate these findings to the overall socio-political and historical context of the Canadian confederation and posit a final conclusion. Submit work in its entirety, properly sourced to support your findings.

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What I meant was, why not question the authority that tells you bilingualism is good, why not examine the concept on its merits, not just parrot back the politically correct party line.
You seem great at throwing insults, any chance of getting a logical defense of your position on bilingualism? I mean after all, I'm just a mouth breathing right winger, a genius such as yourself should have no problem explaining why it's important to have french service in the town of Ducks Ass, Alberta.

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First of all, you insult the many smart people here who obviously have considered opinions about things but neither have the time nor are required to articulate in perfect detail why they think something is good. You assume they're ideological automatons adopting a position only because it's politically correct. This is baiting, and makes you a troll. Personally, I don't like you and therefore feel no obligation to bring you to a higher level of understanding if you approach me with such contempt.

Second, there are NO FRENCH SERVICES OF ANY CONSEQUENCE in Duck's Ass Alberta, unless you talk about a few designated federal positions and a couple of fucking signs. You're venting about some imaginary problem that has its roots in intolerance and that makes you a blight on public discourse.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by BleedingHeart:

It was Parizeau's ability to speak English with the poshest of English accents which sunk him in English Canada. We hate people who speak English better than we do.

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Or does this power only work against english speaking people?

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I would have to say yes, given the traditional enmity of North American anglophones toward the mere presence of another language. Its roots are almost always in intolerance and xenophobia, although the rightwingers have managed to reframe (ie. lie about) the issue in the dispassionate terms of pure economics. Funny, Canada is one of the most prosperous and developed countries on Earth and one of its oldest democracies, and yet bilingualism causes the country endless poverty and hardship.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Originally posted by Fidel:
French speaking people all over Belgium. And they don't have 'concerned citizens groups' wetting their pants over language rights there.

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Well, that's not exactly right.

The sleeper in Harper's "Belgium" model is the fact that, in Belgium, only the capital region is bilingual. Flanders is Flemish-speaking. Wallonia is French-speaking (except for the little German-speaking corner). And there are Flemish separatist groups advocating independence for Flanders -- which is odd when you realize it's larger than Wallonia. They basically want to kick the French out.

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
And I couldn't give a rat's ass if you care for ad hominem attacks on Harper or not and people here will decide whether or not to make them. By the way, those are Pearson's bilingualism policies. The process started before Trudeau was even in Parliament, but for some reason those opposed to them seem to prefer to attack Trudeau for them. I can't imagine why...

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Man, go to one class and you miss a pile of snarky posts -- starting with yours, RB!

A few points:

1) I referred to Trudeau because he pushed an individual-based bilingualism concept much more firmly than Pearson (who was far from bilingual himself) and entrenched minority language rights in the Charter. I actually support the Trudeau vision, so save your defence of him for somebody else.

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My statement that bilingualism wasn't working was based on the points that it hasn't brought the Two Solitudes closer together

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I think you'd have to prove this. From understanding my parents' generation, each solitude (especially the English one) was barely aware of the other's presence in anything other than federal matters. And considering how communication media was so different in those days, even that awareness might have been limited.

I do know that even since my childhood, anglophone Canadians are far more aware now of issues concerning francophones than they were.

Okay, first by saying there are some very funny belly laugh responses here to be read, that are brilliantly wonderful by Realitybites, Scott, Hinterland et al.

Now fidel, not knowing just where you are coming from, as I have not researchd your profile I will say endeavour to reply to your less than concrete points.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

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Originally posted by remind:
According to Reality Bites link, Belgium has 102% debt servicing from the GDP as opposed to Canada's 77%, yep we surely need to model ourselves after them.
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Anyone can balance a budget. Conservative politicians in the States did so in leading up to 1929 and world-wide failure of laissez faire capitalism. Mauru and East Timor are debt free. Socialist Norway has no external debt. Before Tommy Douglas, Saskatchewan had about 130 miles of paved roads. Tommy added thousands of miles of paved highway and roads. And TC Douglas balanced a budget for 17 years straight in Saskatchewan.

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What has balancing a budget got to do with servicing debt? Other than if you balanced it you would not have debt? My point was their model appears to be expensive to maintain and really why bother?

Just think of the costs incurred if we were to switch over. Just imagine how long it would take to switch over. Just imagine what we could to with our own highly functioning successful country with that time and money.

What the hell, you have to go back to 1929 to give an examople of 1 Conservative government balancing a budget. What does that say to you about Conservative fiscal responsibility , eh? Moreover, what does it have to do with Harper and his wanting to make us over in Belguim's image?

Glad to see you noted that it is socialist countries and places that have balanced budgets and no debt, but again what has that to do with Belguim and Harper?

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"There also would be every ethnicity being self determining. That ought to make things function very well, eh."

French speaking people all over Belgium. And they don't have 'concerned citizens groups' wetting their pants over language rights there.

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Read the article and read some history and current events on Belguim, you may get a different picture.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

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Originally posted by ferrethouse:

If that is your definition of success. I guess it is a question of priorties though (or in the case of the Liberals - lack of priorties). Most people recognize that governments have LIMITED funds and that businesses thrive with fewer regulations.

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However, in the case of my family it has worked very much. My daughters grandmother is French speaking, from Cape Breton, her father only spoke French until 5 when he was moved away. There were no bilingual classes for him to attend, and he lost the first of his school years having to learn English and being forced to forget French.

Now because of bilingual education their ancestry is being regained, and both my daughter and granddaughter can speak to their grandmother, while her own son cannot.

This does (edited to put in) "Not" make them want Canada to be "French" only, but it has given them back that 1/2 of their heritage. And there are 10's of thousands across Canada experiencing the same benefits and more will do so in the future.

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Originally posted by CoryWillis:

2) My statement that bilingualism wasn't working was based on the points that it hasn't brought the Two Solitudes closer together, nor has it significantly increased the percentage of bilingual Canadians (from 13% in 1971 to 16% in 1986). Hence my question: do we try harder with the Trudeau vision, or do we try something else? I personally support the former, and don't care for Harper's plan, since it divided Belgium more than it brought them together.

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[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I think you'd have to prove this.

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Two referendum votes are a good starting point, along with Bill 101 and anything Reform or the Bloc ever said about bilingualism.

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You can't confuse the battles that politicians and the effect power politics have on national discourse with how communities react to each other, on a daily basis, in mundane matters. They're not the same thing.

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Originally posted by remind:
Why did you stop 20 years ago when providing proof that bilingualism is not working in any great amount? Does it begin to get more significant after that point or something?

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Two referendum votes are a good starting point, along with Bill 101 and anything Reform or the Bloc ever said about bilingualism.

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I'm not sure that you understand the term Two Solitudes correctly. Both the referendums and the Bill 101 (*ahem* La Charte) are expressions of one of the solitudes speaking to the other and asking or demanding change. That's engagement, not solitude.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Both the referendums and the Bill 101 (*ahem* La Charte) are expressions of one of the solitudes speaking to the other and asking or demanding change. That's engagement, not solitude.

And as far as Alberta is concerned, well, it's a province with just over 3 million people. It's not the whole country.

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I look at my examples at statements of dissatisfaction with the current arrangement. Some of that dissatisfaction isn't wholly linguistic (and I should be careful not to mix issue), but what I said about the Reform / Bloc was two sides of the same coin. Both were refuting the bilingual compromise, and they had 100+ MPs supporting them.

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Originally posted by remind:

What the hell, you have to go back to 1929 to give an examople of 1 Conservative government balancing a budget. What does that say to you about Conservative fiscal responsibility , eh? Moreover, what does it have to do with Harper and his wanting to make us over in Belguim's image?

Glad to see you noted that it is socialist countries and places that have balanced budgets and no debt, but again what has that to do with Belguim and Harper?.

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[Big grin] It's just that in spite of economic austerity measures in European countries, they are still rich countries. Their consvervatives and liberals would like to be a lot further to the right but can't afford to politically.

And you're right. Balanced budgets would be nice if life and the universe in general were not so chaotic. But they are and so are people and whole nations. Gone are the moribund economies for America and Canada of the 1930's where a dollar a day was a good wage; farmers couldnt afford to buy new tractors; life was grey for millions of working class people and banks were even tighter fisted institutions of the wealthy then than they are now. Political conservatism then made communism look good.

I just don't get this language thing. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. This is typical of fascism to divide a nation along ethnic lines and class distinction.

http://www.who.int/countries/en/

But I agree with Canada's child poverty status and our need to get serious about it. Which is something that could be down with the money that would be spent in turning us into Belguim.

Grins not because of child poverty, but because I simply cannot believe this whole discussion about Canada becoming Belguim in the first place.

Harper, is a fine example of an educated idiot IMHO.

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Originally posted by Fidel:

We have problems of our own in Canada. We should be ashamed of our child poverty and infant mortality compared to Belgium. Belgium's socialists made inroads to coalition governance w the Liberals last year.

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[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

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I look at my examples at statements of dissatisfaction with the current arrangement. Some of that dissatisfaction isn't wholly linguistic (and I should be careful not to mix issue), but what I said about the Reform / Bloc was two sides of the same coin. Both were refuting the bilingual compromise, and they had 100+ MPs supporting them.

And yes, Alberta has 3 million people. So what? Do you think that the situation is much better in northern BC, or Regina, or St. John's? Your postal code puts you somewhere around Gatineau -- sorry, Hinterland, but that's as good as it gets for exposure to both solitudes. I fear that my experience is more common that your skepticism.

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I don't know what you mean by skepticism. In any case, francophones have abandoned the bilingual compromise because we have to continually revisit its basic premise and defend it, over and over, in discussions just like this. And usually with people far removed from where the situation really matters (for the anglophone minority in Québec and the francophone minorities in Ontario and New Brunswick). Oh sure, I mean it's not important for Albertans, but I'm pretty sure nothing that doesn't directly affect Albertans is important to them, even though we are in fact talking about national matters, not provincial ones.

Their Grandmother is thrilled needless to say, and told them for the first time ever she feels like she has a "family" here in the west.

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Remind, your story sounds like me . . . I was born in Cape Breton before bi-lingualism was the policy of the country, and only spoke French until I went to school, where I was forced to use only english, and my parents and grandparents were encouraged to get me to quickly forget any French I had aquired to that point.
My step-daughter came to Canada 3 years ago, with very little english, and now speaks both english and french . . . bi-lingualism certainly does work, and how anybody can believe that supporting the learning of other languages is a bad thing is simply beyond comprehension.

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[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: remind ]

Nationally the average is 18%, but aside from QC and NB, no province exceeds 12%.

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:

Huh? I was referring to him being a bigot, remember his crack about minorities costing him the referendum? How come bilingualism didn't stop him from being elected? Or does this power only work against english speaking people?
It's a bird, it's a plane, it's BILINGUALISM MAN!

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Originally posted by CoryWillis:

And yes, Alberta has 3 million people. So what? Do you think that the situation is much better in northern BC, or Regina, or St. John's? .. I fear that my experience is more common that your skepticism.

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
I take it that's not just a information-seeking question, is it, M. Sauvage? I expect you're making some pointed comment instead. How lovely.

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Originally posted by remind:
I just went to the WHO site and Belguim and Canada are equal in infant/child mortality according to 2002 indices.

http://www.who.int/countries/en/

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Thanks for the info. I could find data on IM as recent as 1998 for Canada. If this
student info site? is correct about 2004 IM rates, Canada is at 4.82 while Belgium owns 4.76 infant deaths per 1000 births. 0.06+ doesnt look like a significant diff in IM rate, but it adds up. The Belgian share of poverty income is also lower than Canada's. So why can't we have an IM rate comparable to Sweden or Norway ?.

Finland is one other Northern latitude nation with an indigenous population, and their national IM rate is significantly lower than Canada's. Socialism is a strong influence in that country.

Canada and the States(American IM rate of 7.0/1000) should be ashamed of our child poverty rates and figuring highest in the developed world but better than Mexico by comparison.

Canada's Liberals, and especially the American's, just haven't taken the UN(or Ed Broadbent) declared war on child poverty very seriously at all. I agree, Remind.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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Originally posted by remind:
Actually northern BC has a strong French component to it, as does Sask, more so than Alberta I suspect. Not very good examples Cory. the French I know both here and in Sask, certainly would state that your presumptions about them not caring would be wrong. Just where has your "experience" taken you outside of Alberta?

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Where have I been? Well, Belgium for a start. My rejection of Harper's plan was based on my own experiences.

And Edmonton has quite a significant francophone population, including the Faculte St-Jean, the nation's westernmost French-language college. Does that make the city or even the greater neighbourhood truly bilingual? Has that brought greater understanding between people? Is there any significant cultural exchange? Not a chance, not like that which was intended.

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:

Just expressing my legitimate concern that some of the folks in our fair land might not be getting the full benefits of bilingualism. I'd hate to see any Quebecers shortchanged in the tolerance department by not having bilingualism forced upon them.

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Originally posted by Contrarian:
Probably the child death rates and the poverty rates are made worse by the aboriginal population in Canada, which Belgium does not have. Many, though not all, aboriginal people are poor; also the aboriginal population is growing and includes a greater proportion of children [as far as I know; don't have an actual reference.]

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That's right. Canada does have indigenous people living in third world conditions. I've observed it myself in Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba. Socialist Finland is one other northern country with a native people population. I wonder what their national IM rate is ?.

And here's a teaser. Prior to 1991, how did Iraq's IM rate compare to all other Arab nations ?.

[ 21 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]

It is my perception, that our vast territory, which means huge distances travelled to medical services that are adequate, could be in play with the elevated IM stats.

For serious complications, in the northern interior of BC let's say, unless you are in a urban area, or one has to travel 2 hours at a minimum to get specialized care. In some cases it is 3 hours or more just from town to town. When your giving birth, that is a long time from the determing point of being in crisis, and action is taken to transfer. Also, you have a wait for transportation and then the journey.

Finland has no geographic scales like ours to be effective in. Transportation costs alone drive health board's and officials budgets higher.

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Originally posted by CoryWillis:
Maybe so. But it has no place on a bilingualism thread.

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Originally posted by Coyote:
You're a joke, Oatmeal. Quebecers have to learn English to do anything outside of Quebec, and many do, thus reaping the reward of official bilingualism. And if you have had French forced on you so effectively, je m'attends a ce que tu repondes en francais.

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[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: The Oatmeal Savage ]

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:

Nah, I don't feel like responding to you in french, although I was forced to take it in high school 25 years ago.

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[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Moreover, the Ukrainians, have not independantly kept their culture alive, they too have drunk long and hard from the federal multicultural revenue pot. How about a more balanced look at things?

Now lets talk Harper and Belgium. Most likely under our current Charter of Rights, if Francophone and Anglophone community institutions were given the absolute jurisdiction over things like telecommunications and broadcasting, all other "linguistic" groups and their communities would have that right entrenched in law for them too. Conceivably the separate communities could/would control all information coming into them. Many geographic regions in Canada = religious=social=political persuasions. Such as the long standing Ukrainian, Mennonite and other such communities that are found across Canada

Harper's strategies and comments in this regard were interestingly duplicitous. As really, that is already happening across Canada, in telecommunications and broadcasting, anyway without any entrenched linguistic governing body needed like in Belgium. PQ has all its own French media stations and some are readily available across Canada on cable and wireless. Other ethnic and cultural media and programming are continuing to increase in Canada, well beyond that of our neighbours to the south and perhaps beyond that of other countries around the world. And they will no doubt become more significant in the future. This alone may prove that bilingualism and multiculturalism is in good working order and growing in Canada.

So, really why would we need to have a complete change in government construct, a huge cost in many ways in order to fix something that is not broken? We Canadians have demanded and gotten “linguistic” cultural telecommunications and broadcast capabilities without having many levels of federal politicians to ensure it. As such, do we need more levels of federal government politicians? Belgium has 6 levels of federal government, which is not a smaller federal government as the CPC said they wanted but a bigger one.

Furthermore, Belgium is a constitutional monarchy. Does Harper want to import that as well?

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Executive branch:

chief of state: King ALBERT II (since 9 August 1993); Heir Apparent Prince PHILIPPE, son of the monarch
head of government: Prime Minister Guy VERHOFSTADT (since 13 July 1999)
cabinet: Council of Ministers formally appointed by the monarch
elections: none; the monarchy is hereditary; following legislative elections, the leader of the majority party or the leader of the majority coalition is usually appointed prime minister by the monarch and then approved by Parliament

Political pressure groups and leaders:

Christian, Socialist, and Liberal Trade Unions; Federation of Belgian Industries; numerous other associations representing bankers, manufacturers, middle-class artisans, and the legal and medical professions; various organizations represent the cultural interests of Flanders and Wallonia; various peace groups such as Pax Christi and groups representing immigrants

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Belgium

As far as I am concerned, there is much more behind this than trying to get PQ votes for the CPC. It is way too bizarre to be just a vote getter. What it is though is up for seculation, I suppose.

Harpers words:

"In Belgium, for example, federal authority is shared not only by geographical regions, but also according to linguistic communities," Harper said.

"Instead of giving more authority to provinces in areas like culture or international relations, the federal government could, in concert with the provinces and especially Quebec, establish francophone and anglophone community institutions in areas of jurisdiction like telecommunications and broadcasting."

How big of a component are those in the RoC that do not want to pay for bilingualism, 5000, 10,000 or more?

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
Would that be because of the lack of any rational arguement for bilingualism in the ROC? Or is it because any of those arguements can be turned turned right around and applied to bilingualism and respect for other cultures in Quebec? The Ukainians and other don't seem to have any trouble keeping their culture alive, why is it the only way french can survive is if the english pay for it? Or is that part of their culture now?

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
There certainly is a lot of name-calling on this subject. Would that be because of the lack of any rational arguement for bilingualism in the ROC? Or is it because any of those arguements can be turned turned right around and applied to bilingualism and respect for other cultures in Quebec? The Ukainians and other don't seem to have any trouble keeping their culture alive, why is it the only way french can survive is if the english pay for it? Or is that part of their culture now?

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We are a bilingual country. I would love to see other languages adopted into that, so that we can join the rest of the civilized world in expecting our citizenry to speak more than their mother tongue.

Whatever else sucked about the last election's debates, and a lot did, it was good to watch the leaders of all four major parties acquiting themselves well in both official languages . . . something that has always been expected of leaders coming from Quebec, but not from leaders from the ROC (Chretien DOES NOT COUNT!). The double standard is applied against French and Francophone communities, not the other way around.

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We are a bilingual country. I would love to see other languages adopted into that, so that we can join the rest of the civilized world in expecting our citizenry to speak more than their mother tongue.

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
Speaking of civilized, could a person put up a chinese sign on their business in Quebec without also putting up one in french that was twice as large? Or would the business get fire bombed?

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Seems like a double standard

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Of course it's a double standard!

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
So what about chinese or other languages and cultures in Quebec, are they somehow less valuable? Shouldn't they be protected from being overwhelmed by the french culture?

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Speaking of civilized, could a person put up a chinese sign on their business in Quebec without also putting up one in french that was twice as large? Or would the business get fire bombed?

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Babble...where someone called Oatmeal Savage has a personal soap box to be abysmally stupid in perpetuity.

Get a blog, would you?

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]

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Originally posted by Hinterland:
Oh, Coyote...don't be so insulting to poor Oatmeal. What have you got against free speech? And while we're at it, why do you hate America?

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By the way, Oatmeal, if you ever want to talk about cost-effectiveness in providing bilingual services, I'm your guy. When it comes to spending public funds, I'm a real miser.

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[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]

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How about having the people who teach French in the ROC actually speak French.

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Oh, I can't help you on that one. Teacher accreditation has gotten so fucked up, it's almost hopeless.

My niece, who speaks French natively but went to an English university in Ontario and who plans on going to D'Youville College in Buffalo (...Buffalo!) to get the accreditation required to teach French in Ontario thinks it's completely immaterial that she should spend anytime in a totally French-speaking environment in order to be legitimately qualified to teach French. She didn't take her 3rd year abroad in somewhere like France, like most modern language students did in the past. She never even bothered to spend a summer in Trois-Pistoles (or some equivalent place in Québec). Her French is more than good enough to get by on a daily basis...but, to teach it? I'm appalled, and I've told her.

If someone firebombs Revenue Canada, does that become an argument for or against lowering taxes? Or should it even be a part of the debate at all?

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Coyote ]

*inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyote´s unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*

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The name of Jacques Villeneuve's new restaurant, "Newtown," is a registered trademark, like "Burger King," which means it is legal under the Quebec language laws. The same goes for "Second Cup," but this didn't stop three "Second Cup" outlets from being firebombed in the fall of 2000 by a fledgling terrorist group that calls itself the Brigade d'Autodéfense du Française (French Self-Defence Brigade.)

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What I want to know is why we aren't doing it.

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inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyote´s unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*

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Originally posted by Mandos:
I missed most of this fascinating debate so:

*inserts standard objection to simonvallee (and Coyote´s unjustified conflation of cultural and political boundaries*

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So do you figure the whole quebec sign law is a big success story in the cultural tolerance department?

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Actually, using your logic, the Quebec sign law is a great success on the cultural tolerance front, because without it there would be more English signs, and therefore more business with English signs would be firebombed!

With the law as it is, the lunatics led by Raymond Villeneuve (no relation to Jacques) only have a short list of stores to firebomb.

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Sara Mayo ]

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Tsktsk Hinterland, you are taking what I was saying too seriously. Coyote got it.

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Well, I just don't get it. For the love God, PM me! And tell me how you pronounce "tsktsk", while you're at it. I tried, but my partial flew out of my mouth.

[ 22 October 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

100 years ago your intellectual ancestors were leading marches and flying Orange flags, and they weren't just going after the French (but the really hated the French). Any brief investigation of Canadian history will show you that time and again French communities have been the victims of intolerance. And you have the gall to sit here and claim victimhood. Buddy. I learned French last year. I went to Quebec to live amongst the Quebecois and learn their language and be a part of their community. I was accepted so warmly, and learned so much, that it is amazing. Conservatives like you will never see the intangible benefits of expanding themselves because you are so scared, scared, of any threat to the supremacy of your own social position that it completely unnerves you.

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I thought your socialist ideology preached fairness and equality

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No, YOUR ideology is the one that does the "preaching" . . . but little else!

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Originally posted by The Oatmeal Savage:
Interesting, I don't care about fairness. Hmmmm Tell me how defending the language rights of minorities in Quebec makes me a bigot.
Tell me how asking why french is given preference over other minorities in the ROC is bigotry.

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You're right, it is not bigotry, what it really is ignorance. The French constituency today in Canada is representative of those in history who made the negotiated settlement with Britain. And their history is as long as or longer than other ethnicities including many Anglophones are today in Canada. They have been equal, at least, partners in exploring and building Canada. Bilingualism to me is recognizing that partnership in country and society

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... sold a bunch of politically correct bullshit that is internally inconsistent and illogical.

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Who did the selling? Just kidding as there was no sale. Unless it was a book sale. It is not illogical or internally inconsistent, the deal was made generations ago, but never really adhered to.

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I thought your socialist ideology preached fairness and equality, if so, why does french get special treatment over other minorities?

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They do not get special treatment they are getting their own agreed to rights. Other ethnicities are johny come latelies ao to speak. It does not make their rights less, just different.

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You must admit the arguements for bilingualism in this thread have been pretty weak, in fact most of it is just insults, which says a lot about the intellectual agility of the people trying to defend it. Perhaps they have never really examined the reasons why they are in favour of the program and have just been parroting back the party line. Might be time for a little bit of thinking outside the box and to do some thinking for themselves.

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And "French" should be capitalized. You're a menace to the English language, TOS. Please capitalize or we'll keel haul yer and make ye walk the plank, mate. ha ha

[ 23 October 2004: Message edited by: Fidel ]

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but it is okay for the french to shit all over any minority in Quebec?

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Originally posted by RealityBites:
BleedingHeart, would that be before or after reading The Oatmeal Savage's posts?

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Originally posted by remind:
Does anyone know about what zombies he is speaking of?

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This thread has gone from bad to worse; from the comedy of Cory Willis and his ferret propounding on the economic savings to be had from leaving half of our cereal boxes blank to the foaming-at-the-mouth bigoted ravings of Oatmeal Savage.

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Originally posted by Andy Social:
I wonder if Oatmeal Savage is a zombie. He certainly seems braindead.

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Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Is this the best support Harper can muster?

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Pick it up a bit would you, Andy? Your insults are flat and uninspiring, they bore me.
If you read the thread you will see that Quebec's contribution to Canada was questioned, so ask a WWII vet what the zombies were. Perhaps you have been getting the sanitised and politically corrected version of history.

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Our challenge as Conservatives is to develop new proposals for addressing Quebec's unique concerns . . .
In Belgium, for example, federal authority has been divided not just with geographically based regions, but also with lingusitic communities as well.

I want my party to consider how this model could be adapted to Canada.

Rather than devolving more power to the provinces in areas like cultural affairs and international relations, perhaps the federal government, working with the provinces and particularly with Quebec, could establish Francophone and Anglophone Community institutions for jurisdictions in areas like the CRTC and the CBC, or the Francophonie, the Commonwealth and UNESCO.

The Belgian model and the experience of other countries could guide us. . .

. . . this kind of devolution would allow/recognize arrangements tailored more to Quebec's needs, but in ways that strengthen the relationship between French-speaking Canadians across the country. . . it also provides some meaningful recognition of/ voice to English Canada . . . without devolving authority that few in Anglophone provincial capitals are actually seeking.

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