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Author Topic: After Jenin
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 02:23 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
After Jenin: Yitzhak Laor

quote:

What has the war between us and the Palestinians been about? About the Israeli attempt to slice what's left of Palestine into four cantons, by building 'separation roads', new settlements and checkpoints. The rest is killing, terror, curfew, house demolitions and propaganda. Palestinian children live in fear and despair, their parents humiliated in front of them. Palestinian society is being dismantled, and public opinion in the West blames it on the victims - always the easiest way to face the horror. I know: my father was a German Jew.

[...]

The Israeli imaginaire is constituted, before anything else, of the belief in Israeli supremacy. When there is a cruel suicide bombing in a hotel in Netanya, we will respond on a greater scale, with a terrorist attack on them, no matter if it inflicts death or hunger on two million people who have no connection with that act, no matter if it will create a thousand more martyrs who will blow themselves up along with their victims. The military logic behind this behaviour says: 'We have the power and we have to exercise it, otherwise our existence is in danger.' But the only danger is the danger facing the Palestinians. Gas chambers are not the only way to destroy a nation. It is enough to destroy its social tissue, to starve dozens of villages, to develop high rates of infant mortality. The West Bank is going through a Gaza-isation. Please don't shrug your shoulders. The one thing that might help to destroy the consensus in Israel is pressure from Western Europe, on which the Israeli elite is dependent in so many ways.



From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 11 May 2002 09:48 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
raven, please close this topic ... it will only lead to what has already been said, in other similar threads. More friction between left-wing babblers.
From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 09:57 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There is a group of bullies on this board and they can't shut down debate. That's why I'm posting these.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 11 May 2002 10:06 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ras, I am not a bully. And this is not a debate.
From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 10:09 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whether it's a debate, or the ability of people with a point of view that is not identical to the pro-corporate, pro-US mainstream media to express themselves in a reasonably accessible venue, I think my point stands. I wasn't actually thinking of you with my bully remark...
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 10:13 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point is that a lot of people actually feel intimidated or bullied by people who seem to spend their whole day attacking any criticism of Israel on this board. That's not good. Don't you agree?
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 11 May 2002 10:16 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Save your diplomacy ... I will not spoil your party.
From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 10:37 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Save your diplomacy ... I will not spoil your party.

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Judes
publisher
Babbler # 21

posted 11 May 2002 11:01 AM      Profile for Judes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with Rasmus. We can't be intimidated by people who want to stiffle debate. The situation is the Middle East is critical and it is important that dissident Israeli voices be heard. Bravo to Rasmus for posting one.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 11 May 2002 11:40 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
it is important that dissident Israeli voices be heard. Bravo to Rasmus for posting one.

My apologies to Rasmus ... it never crossed my mind that he is a dissident Israeli voice.

I should also extend my apologies to all the other dissident Israeli voices, notably, Parviz Mirbaghi, Mohammad Khan, Mandos, goodgoditsnottrue, Riffraff, and Professor Stanton. Any others, left out of my list, is purely a case of unintended forgetfulness.


From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 11 May 2002 11:54 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She didn't say HE was the dissident Israeli voice, she said he POSTED one - and the one he posted was written by someone else, a dissident Israeli.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
agent007
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1189

posted 11 May 2002 11:56 AM      Profile for agent007     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, the tyranny of words! OK, I'll take back my apologies to all.
From: Niagara Falls ON | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
captainparanoia
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2633

posted 11 May 2002 12:10 PM      Profile for captainparanoia        Edit/Delete Post
I joined this thread thinking there might be some reference to Naomi Klein's superb dissection of the problem in her recent column. I am new here (rabble) and perhaps naive to think that 'babblers' would be less inclined than the general public to fall into 'us vs. them' mentalities. Surely in this most recent spate of conflicts in Israel/Palestine there are victims in both camps. And as surely there are aggressors on both sides of the conflict who make victims of those who are in their 'camps' as well as those in the other. These are not sports teams where one might overlook the Ty Domis and Darcy Tuckers whose violence can be mitigated because all the players have chosen to play and know the risks (and the obscene monetary compensation for that matter). No one in a Palestinian refugee camp or an Israeli discotheque for that matter is asked whether or not they want to play before the mortar rounds or pipe bombs go off. But as usual we spectators get caught up in the rhetoric of the leaders and weigh their strategies - usually looking for a lesser of two evils. I'm not content with that. I hope you folks aren't either.
From: Brampton, On | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rapunzel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2488

posted 11 May 2002 12:16 PM      Profile for Rapunzel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I try not to think about things I am discontented about because whan I do my blood pressure rises, my teeth grind, my hackles rise and I feel like doing something about it.

Then if I do nothing, I feel guilty. But if I do something, it takes time away from my spouse, my children, my leisure reading, my career, my continuing university education, the great Canadian novel I'm trying to write, well, you know how it is. Once one grows up one has considerably less time to dwell on life's inequities, let alone act on them on somone elses behalf.

You don't seem to mind thinking about about the things that you are discontented about captain. Do you plan on doing anything about them?

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: Rapunzel ]


From: T.O. | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 11 May 2002 12:53 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry. I have sent this post privately to its intended audience.

[ May 11, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 11 May 2002 03:41 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
My apologies to Rasmus ... it never crossed my mind that he is a dissident Israeli voice.

You know, you might want to read those news articles more closely instead of shooting your mouth off in a knee-jerk ISRAEL GOOD PALESTINIANS BAD rant.

quote:
I should also extend my apologies to all the other dissident Israeli voices, notably, Parviz Mirbaghi, Mohammad Khan, Mandos, goodgoditsnottrue, Riffraff, and Professor Stanton. Any others, left out of my list, is purely a case of unintended forgetfulness.

You forgot me.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 13 May 2002 04:42 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My Visit to Jenin --Rabbi Arik Ascherman

quote:

My Visit to Jenin

Will you sweep away the innocent along with the guilty?

Rabbi Arik Ascherman

Yesterday (Thursday) I made one of the most awful (and frightnening) trips of my life - to Jenin. I had heard from Palestinian friends about the hatred there - towards Israelis, Americans, Arab countries and Europeans, and how the only word spoken there (unlike other Palestinian towns) was "revenge." Like everybody else I had seen the pictures. Nevertheless, it was something else to be there.

The destroyed area is not that big, but it is simply incredible. The area was not merely reduced to rubble - it was reduced to dust. With all that I saw, two conversations affected meV most. I spoke with one elderly women siting in the dirt next to the mangled wheelchair of her son. They had just dug it out and now she was waiting for them to find her son as well. She explained how she had begged the soldiers to give her handicapped son, who she had washed, fed and clothed for so many years, a chance to get out. She says that they didn't listen. A crowd of onlookers stood around the excavation - the deathwatch.

[...]

I saw the terrorist infrastructure yesterday - the hatred in the eyes of an entire people who want to be free from occupation, even as we want to be free of fear. I was present as a truckload from USAID arrived and was being downloaded. An hour later I was told that camp residents had come with missle parts in their hands saying, "This is the real Amercian gift," and demanded that the aid be returned. Clearly, for the people in Jenin camp, we in the human rights community and the government are two hands of the same body - good cop/bad cop. We come and wring our hands and send aid afterwards, but did not/were not able to do anything to stop what happened. We can point fingers at the other side and comfort oursleves by saying that we must respond to this hatred, as sorry as we may be. However, I hope that we as a society will also have the abillity to ask the more difficult question of our contribution to creating the hatred. As a human rights community we must figure out what we do in the impossible situation when nobody is listening, channels of influence are closed, the facts aren't clear and some of us ourselves are confused.


[ May 13, 2002: Message edited by: rasmus_raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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