babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » right brain babble   » culture   » PREDICTION: Orchestral Music will become obsolete in 5-10 years.

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: PREDICTION: Orchestral Music will become obsolete in 5-10 years.
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What I mean: Orchestras, like stage plays, live theatre will always be around...HOWEVER for mass use (Like concerts recording music for CD's, Movies scores, etc). They will become obsolete sooner than later.

Opera singers still have life to them, as they fall more into the category of celebrity.

However rank and file cellists, horns, etc...they'd better send their resumes to WAL-MART PRONTO. Unless you're a Yo-Yo Ma, you're basically toast.

What convinces me of this? This:

http://www.synful.com/User%20Demos.htm

Go ahead and listen to some of the clips. You'll see what I mean, the applications for this program is groundbreaking to say the least. Countless composers will flock to this program and thus they can crank out tunes without having to deal with all of the hassle of orchestras/money/time/tweaking, etc.

The genius of this program is that it doesn't 'sample' with gigabytes of sound clips. This program is only 32 megs in size!!!

You can carry an entire orchestra with you on your LAPTOP.

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: Canadian Revolution ]

[ 21 September 2005: Message edited by: Canadian Revolution ]


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
jas
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9529

posted 21 September 2005 07:19 PM      Profile for jas     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's great news for the ROBOTS, CR!
From: the world we want | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 07:31 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jas:
That's great news for the ROBOTS, CR!

Have you listened to the audio clips from that program? It's amazing stuff.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 21 September 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
Have you listened to the audio clips from that program? It's amazing stuff.

I have listened to the clips, and they do sound great to me, however my ears aren't trained well enough to know what quality music is.

I do see why composers might prefer to compose by hand as opposed to a computer. If you compose by hand, you don't risk losing whatever time you invested in composing due to a machine freezing, losing power, crashing, etc.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 21 September 2005 08:04 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, what do I know. I still listen to Wendy Carlos and Larry Fast.
From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hawkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3306

posted 21 September 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for Hawkins     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That and snobbish institutions like to keep their snob.

Meaning - composers have kept going for years the way they have for many generations. There is tradition. And its more than hard to kill tradition. Specially with a computer.


From: Burlington Ont | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 21 September 2005 08:08 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't pretty much everything going to become obsolete, including the human race (when it is replaced by robots)?
From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 September 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow. I want this program.

And also, I don't want it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9327

posted 21 September 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of all the things that threaten the human race, replacement by robots (if that is even possible, many people aren't convinced) is rather low on the list of things I'm worried about.
From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chubbybear:
Hey, what do I know. I still listen to Wendy Carlos and Larry Fast.

Walter/Wendy Carlos kicks ass!

I'm a big fan of synth, going back to the BBC Radiophonic workshop (When they were sculpting sound of of a few strips of tape and a lot of reverb). Moog, Vangelis, Philip Glass...all synth gods.

I see this program as the 'next' step in the evolution of Synth.

I believe it will eventually replace orchestras over a lot of commercial/artistic applications. Symphonies will still have their place, but no longer be as primary as they used to be for that 'full orchestral sound'


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 08:36 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Wow. I want this program.

And also, I don't want it.


They have a fully working demo. I'm buying a full sized Midi keyboard to replace my old casio banger.

SYNFUL, is a 'killer application' in more ways than ones


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 21 September 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I believe it will eventually replace orchestras over a lot of commercial/artistic applications.

"Pop" musicians have been adding their "orchestral" tracks with a Synclavier (or more modern equivalent) for decades now.

And still those stubborn classical musicians persist. Like friggin' cockroaches, they'll be here after the nuclear winter, playing their ridiculous wooden contraptions and laughing at your fried hard drive.

This much is true though: the early Synclaviers cost tens of thousands. This program costs considerably less. Wait for some Linux user to release OpenSynful and save even more.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 21 September 2005 09:12 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
I see this program as the 'next' step in the evolution of Synth. I believe it will eventually replace orchestras over a lot of commercial/artistic applications. Symphonies will still have their place, but no longer be as primary as they used to be for that 'full orchestral sound'
Meh, Larry (Synergy) Fast could smack Wendy/Walter all around the studio, even if W was tag teaming with Tomita. I've been following synthesized music since about 1970, and have heard many of the 1960's experiments. However, I must say the classical musician cannot be replaced by this technology. However near the tone and texture, it still sounds like a machine. Human playing has irregularity and quirkiness - that's what gives it soul. However, for commercial applications like elevator music, bad tv sitcoms, tedious movies and ringtones, sure why not. Can't be any worse than what we've got now.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 11:40 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Human playing has irregularity and quirkiness - that's what gives it soul. However, for commercial applications like elevator music, bad tv sitcoms, tedious movies and ringtones, sure why not. Can't be any worse than what we've got now.[/QB]

*ahem*

Have you bothered to actually LISTEN to the user contributed MP3's made from this program?


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 21 September 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
[QB]

"Pop" musicians have been adding their "orchestral" tracks with a Synclavier (or more modern equivalent) for decades now.


Please first go to the Synful.com website, listen to the tracks.

You don't know what you're talking about.

There's an inherent different between Casio-Keyboard synth/Sampling Libraries to what SYNFUL is doing.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 21 September 2005 11:59 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
Have you bothered to actually LISTEN to the user contributed MP3's made from this program?
Yes, and I thought it was pretty good. Sounds a lot like Wyndam Hill music.

From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:05 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chubbybear:
Yes, and I thought it was pretty good. Sounds a lot like Wyndam Hill music.

The point being, for the vast majority of listeners...nobody will ever figure out that this music came from a program.

Spotting synthesizers imitating orchestras were always easy to spot over the years.

This program effectively eliminates that. The winds/horns can still do with some work, however for a program that's relatively still new...the results are shattering to say the very least.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:09 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

I have listened to the clips, and they do sound great to me, however my ears aren't trained well enough to know what quality music is.


The majority of the public will never be able to tell the difference. So why bother hiring/renting an orchestra when you can simply spend days fiddling with a midi keyboard?

quote:
I do see why composers might prefer to compose by hand as opposed to a computer. If you compose by hand, you don't risk losing whatever time you invested in composing due to a machine freezing, losing power, crashing, etc.

*ahem*

composers don't work that way. It's not like the candle-lit quill/paper Mozart images that you have. Most composers are like musicians, they love to experiment with keyboards for hours until they get a desired sound, then they'll commit it to Pro-Tools.

Once they have got the arrangements that they want, they'll then simply print out the music with an inkjet printer and then off to the Orchestra.

A lot of my friends are musicians, and they've composed for orchestras in the past. None of them have done it the way you described.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 September 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know how similar it is, but there is completely free music and midi composition software and it has been around a long time:

http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/

You can even get the entire package on a bootable CD:

http://www.ferventsoftware.com/index.php


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 12:35 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Please first go to the Synful.com website, listen to the tracks.

You don't know what you're talking about.


You're basically here to lecture us, forever, aren't you?

So far you've been tolerated, and even humoured, but if you're always right, and the rest of us must either agree, or be always wrong, I'm betting it won't be long before you don't find any more takers.

Now go ask the nice Dale Carnegie people for your money back.

And you're right; this Synful that you keep orgasming about sounds like the best video game soundtrack ever. It's hardly bleepy or shrill at all. No doubt it's only a matter of time before we're throwing nickels into some poor sod's upturned French Horn, or watching sadly as the first violin of the TSO plays "the fiddle" outside the Hummingbird Theatre for a half a sandwich. Just as you predicted.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 22 September 2005 12:55 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
*ahem*

composers don't work that way. It's not like the candle-lit quill/paper Mozart images that you have. Most composers are like musicians, they love to experiment with keyboards for hours until they get a desired sound, then they'll commit it to Pro-Tools.

Once they have got the arrangements that they want, they'll then simply print out the music with an inkjet printer and then off to the Orchestra.


, where the nervous musicians adjust their cummerbunds and the conductor paces stage-left. A buzz sweeps through the audience as the composer bursts through the doors flourishing his finished score, in the nick of time for the performance!

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 01:22 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

You're basically here to lecture us, forever, aren't you?



Don't hate me because I'm beautiful.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
I don't know how similar it is, but there is completely free music and midi composition software and it has been around a long time:

http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/

You can even get the entire package on a bootable CD:

http://www.ferventsoftware.com/index.php


Ack, Linux.

As much as I think Linux is cool...it's simply too weird. Too many variants, too many different flavours/requirements.

At least with WinXP/OSX, there's standardization.

Even Ubuntu...the shining light of Linux, turned out to be more pain than pleasure to use. Still though, I'm hoping for Ubuntu to be successful.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 22 September 2005 01:47 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Being a Cape Bretoner growing up during a time when it was a common lament that the traditional celtic music and dance of the area was on the way out and soon to be lost, and then live to see the day when celtic music and dance become one of the more popular forms of cultural entertainment, I have to say that the chance that people will stop paying to see real people with real talent perform real music is beyond the limits of my simple mind to comprehend.

There may indeed be a place for master synth programmers in the world of musical entertainment, but somehow doubt that it will be a permanent replacement for the excitement of watching a real musician with real musical skills practise their art.

Someday I suppose dogs will be able to talk, but I am sceptical that when that day comes, no matter how well dogs learn to talk, that human poetry will be threatened with extinction.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 01:50 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Being a Cape Bretoner growing up during a time when it was a common lament that the traditional celtic music and dance of the area was on the way out and soon to be lost, and then live to see the day when celtic music and dance become one of the more popular forms of cultural entertainment, I have to say that the chance that people will stop paying to see real people with real talent perform real music is beyond the limits of my simple mind to comprehend.

There may indeed be a place for master synth programmers in the world of musical entertainment, but somehow doubt that it will be a permanent replacement for the excitement of watching a real musician with real musical skills practise their art.


I made this point.

However for any real revenue/big bucks generating ventures, like recording CD's (A lot of musicians with the money to spend will use an orchestra), or Hollywood movie scores (which virtually all of them use orchestras). Face it, Synth will kill all of that off.

It's just a basic matter of economics. A fully functioning orchestra is simply too hard to maintain, whereas Celtic musicians are much smaller in numbers, and can travel from city to city.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 22 September 2005 02:20 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you understand what dialogue and debate mean?

You have this strange dellusion that orchestras do movie soundtracks and cd's for pop musicians almost exclusively, and that an orchestra performing as an orchestra for an audience that is intending to listen to an orchestra, is just something they do for fun on the side.

Orchestras will always be the epitome of the orchestral sound. Period. End stop. Yes, synthesizers will replace some of what they do today, but by no stretch of the imagination does that mean orchestras will be "obsolete".


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 02:56 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
Do you understand what dialogue and debate mean?

You have this strange dellusion that orchestras do movie soundtracks and cd's for pop musicians almost exclusively, and that an orchestra performing as an orchestra for an audience that is intending to listen to an orchestra, is just something they do for fun on the side.

Orchestras will always be the epitome of the orchestral sound. Period. End stop. Yes, synthesizers will replace some of what they do today, but by no stretch of the imagination does that mean orchestras will be "obsolete".


The fact that orchestras are heavily used to do theatrical scores isn't much of a stretch to believe that Synful and other such apps will render the orchestra obsolete.

Orchestras will still have their place in cities as the local 'community orchestra'. However, the majority of serious composers will much prefer having months of endless experimentation with an Orchestra program...rather than the pressurecooker 'whirlwind' recording sessions that they have to do with a full orchestra.

it's EXPENSIVE getting all those people in a room and playing over and over a piece of music.

A $499 program can do all that and not take bathroom breaks.

P.S.

I fully understand what debating is all about. The key is to pick the winning side to a debate. That way you can't lose.

[ 22 September 2005: Message edited by: Canadian Revolution ]


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 22 September 2005 03:02 AM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:

I fully understand what debating is all about. The key is to pick the winning side to a debate. That way you can't lose.


This deserves an honourable mention in the hall of fame don'tcha think?


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8572

posted 22 September 2005 03:57 AM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://www.word-detective.com/howcome/hcwind6.wav
From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674

posted 22 September 2005 07:41 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
it's EXPENSIVE getting all those people in a room and playing over and over a piece of music. A $499 program can do all that and not take bathroom breaks.

hmmm.

quote:
Music gives me time to think, and things make sense again. Sometimes its hard to articulate my feelings, but with music it becomes easier.

When I am playing music, I forget about everything else-its a very relaxing, yet exciting, experience. Music makes those around me happy. When playing at nursing homes I see smiles on peoples faces and it makes me feel like I brought them joy.

Music is my way of expressing myself. Playing through a song, or just practicing from a book, its as if everything else melts away, and its just the music and me. Music interprets how I feel so others can also understand.

Music has taught me to be responsible, and how to be a leader. It has allowed me to meet many new people through different ensembles, and has given me self-confidence through the respect of my fellow musicians.


but, you know, the important thing is the labour cost of an orchestra.


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 10:07 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I fully understand what debating is all about. The key is to pick the winning side to a debate. That way you can't lose.

Or, as in your case, simply insist, repetitively, that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

So is Synergy or Synkhole or whatever the hell this shitty product is called paying you to talk about it like it's going to revolutionize the world, or do you do this pro bono? I haven't seen someone sprout this much wood over a piece of software since Bush saw the first Diebold. What's your story with this? Why are you (clearly) obsessed with a little fakey-orchestra tunebox?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7708

posted 22 September 2005 10:15 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyone who has had the privilege of sitting in a concert hall and experiencing a full orchestra play wouldn't consider a program a remote threat to the future of live music. If this program can dissolve your knees, reduce you to tears, give you a profound spiritual experience and fill you with an overwhelming love of humanity.... then, maybe.
From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:08 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Willowdale Wizard:

but, you know, the important thing is the labour cost of an orchestra.


It is important, especially for commercial applications (where Orchestral music is highly sought after...but onl those with serious dollars could afford).

Also, please give me an example of when a major Hollywood studio film hired a High School music band to do the score for their films?

You're complete missing the point.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:18 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Or, as in your case, simply insist, repetitively, that you're right and everyone else is wrong.

So is Synergy or Synkhole or whatever the hell this shitty product is called paying you to talk about it like it's going to revolutionize the world, or do you do this pro bono? I haven't seen someone sprout this much wood over a piece of software since Bush saw the first Diebold. What's your story with this? Why are you (clearly) obsessed with a little fakey-orchestra tunebox?


Beyond the legitimate application of this program, I think this program is going to have an indelible impact in the world of music...Realize that I am also illustrating an entertaining point of absurdity..

I could tout a cure for cancer, and you would be so hard pressed to find reason to agree with me...for the sake of it, that you would do everything possible to disagree with me regardless. Even if this cure could save millions...by the end, you would be clamouring to have it banned.

Same thing for virtually any type of cause/subject. I am positive I can make a solid case for gay rights...and you'd come out on the opposite end of the debate out of spite.

I love it!

There's a rather absurdist type of Pavlovian experience here. If you want people to come out and condemn/hate something which is inherently a good thing...simply tout it's merits and conduct your semantics accordingly.

Today? I got you calling a synth program basically a piece of crap.

Tommorow? I can have you condemning the left, and all it's merits.

It's all a matter of time...

And yeah, basically you've contributed NOTHING to these debates except for an endless series of insults...which falls nicely into the defintion of TROLL.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 September 2005 12:20 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
As much as I think Linux is cool...it's simply too weird. Too many variants, too many different flavours/requirements.

At least with WinXP/OSX, there's standardization.


Ahh, standardization.

Actually, you are wrong. Linux adheres to international standards. Windows and Apple adhere to proprietary standards. And OS X is based on BSD, an open source operating system. Go figure.

Nevertheless, your reply is quite telling. Because standardization is quite cost effective. Robots, for example, all meeting an exact specification, are cheaper to engineer for than humans with no standard height, arm length, body weight, etc ...

And music software sets a standard which will increasingly reduce the cost of recording and producing music as every instrument will adhere to a standard. No concerns about quaity, material, a musicians ability, and no need to wait for tuning, or other human requirements.

Yes, standards, the fallback position of every revolutionary.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 12:22 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You must be getting very tired of our repeated inability to understand your point.

Why don't you go find yourself a discussion board with smarter people in it, who will no doubt agree with you that this stupid piece of software is the best thing since Frankenfood and be done with it?

All you've done since arriving here is try to force your point of view on everyone, and then insult them if they don't agree. Besides being really tedious, it's probably not very good advertising for your little synthesizer either.

Seriously. All you're doing here is alienating everyone. Why is that fun for you?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Suzette:
Anyone who has had the privilege of sitting in a concert hall and experiencing a full orchestra play wouldn't consider a program a remote threat to the future of live music. If this program can dissolve your knees, reduce you to tears, give you a profound spiritual experience and fill you with an overwhelming love of humanity.... then, maybe.

Have you listened to the user contributed (not the glossy/slick examples), but the .mp3's that were made from this program?

I am convinced that this program can do all what you described and more. The biggest problem most composers had was lack of access to orchestras.

Face it, an orchestra is an army, it's costly to keep all these people fed/paid and playing in top form. Only major productions could afford the sound of an orchestra.

Not anymore...

Look for a watershed moment in the world of music. You're going to see orchestral music literally come out for the MASSES. Everything from t.v. shows to low-budget independent films will suddenly have the richness and vitality of a full-blown orchestra.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 22 September 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:

It is important, especially for commercial applications (where Orchestral music is highly sought after...but onl those with serious dollars could afford).

Also, please give me an example of when a major Hollywood studio film hired a High School music band to do the score for their films?

You're complete missing the point.



People can pay to see movies with artificial actors, and they can pay to listen to artificial musicians as well, but to suggest that no one will therefore care anymore whether the actors or musicians are real is a wild and illogical jump.

Computers didn't make human chess players obsolete even though it may be argued that computers are now "better" at chess than humans.

Can you imagine people filling halls to watch two computer chess programs go at it, while in the next hall no one bothers to show up for a match against two human grand masters?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Ahh, standardization.

Actually, you are wrong. Linux adheres to international standards. Windows and Apple adhere to proprietary standards. And OS X is based on BSD, an open source operating system. Go figure.


I dunno. When I want to try out an app for OSX/Windows, I simply go to versiontracker.com and download the app. These apps simply just work, install and go.

Linux? I've tried many apps to get them to work in Ubuntu, and for a gazillion reasons they simply won't fire up. Most times Ubuntu won't even recognize the app.

As I've said, Linux will do great things for back-end services...but front-end? Especially in first-world society's? Nope.

No chance in hell.

quote:
Nevertheless, your reply is quite telling. Because standardization is quite cost effective. Robots, for example, all meeting an exact specification, are cheaper to engineer for than humans with no standard height, arm length, body weight, etc ...

And with this, you can have buildings/construction/manufacturing increase at an accelerated pace, lower the cost...and thus make having a better way of life more affordable for the rest of the world.

Instead of living in Malaria ridden huts...why not offer low-cost buildings with running water, air conditioning and all of the other amenities to struggling nations? Robots can do all this.

quote:
And music software sets a standard which will increasingly reduce the cost of recording and producing music as every instrument will adhere to a standard. No concerns about quality, material, a musicians ability, and no need to wait for tuning, or other human requirements.

Yes, standards, the fallback position of every revolutionary.


If it means the ability to create beautiful orchestral scores on the cheap...any sane composer worth his/her salt will flock to it.

Unless you've got major Hollywood studio backing behind you...orchestral music is dead.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 September 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What very odd delusions.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
[QB]People can pay to see movies with artificial actors, and they can pay to listen to artificial musicians as well, but to suggest that no one will therefore care anymore whether the actors or musicians are real is a wild and illogical jump.

You're missing the POINT.

LISTEN to those MP3's and tell me that you can say it's fake. 98 percent of the public will not be able to tell the difference.

For myself, I can spot the synth in the horns/winds, however the program is still a work in progress. As for strings? They (programmers) nailed it COLD.

I'm not here to debate the merits of 'people in music halls'. There will always be a venue for that. Just like there is for live stage plays.

I'm strictly talking over the commercial applications of orchestral music. It's going to die out, plain and simple. Even mega-million Hollywood productions will eventually wish to move towards synth.

You'll soon see a multi-million dollar movie all scored with a $499 program.

Case closed.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674

posted 22 September 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Canadian Revolution is a self-hating human. we need to take bathroom breaks, and we're just too expensive. we are not the future. $499 software packages are.
From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 22 September 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
Beyond the legitimate application of this program, I think this program is going to have an indelible impact in the world of music...Realize that I am also illustrating an entertaining point of absurdity..

I could tout a cure for cancer, and you would be so hard pressed to find reason to agree with me...for the sake of it, that you would do everything possible to disagree with me regardless. Even if this cure could save millions...by the end, you would be clamouring to have it banned.

Same thing for virtually any type of cause/subject. I am positive I can make a solid case for gay rights...and you'd come out on the opposite end of the debate out of spite.

I love it!

There's a rather absurdist type of Pavlovian experience here. If you want people to come out and condemn/hate something which is inherently a good thing...simply tout it's merits and conduct your semantics accordingly.

Today? I got you calling a synth program basically a piece of crap.

Tommorow? I can have you condemning the left, and all it's merits.

It's all a matter of time...

And yeah, basically you've contributed NOTHING to these debates except for an endless series of insults...which falls nicely into the defintion of TROLL.


Actually, doesn't the post just quoted amount to an admission of trolling by the poster? Together with the obvious inconsistencies pointed out elsewhere (e.g. he despises political parties and he's a card-carrying member of the NDP), it is clear that this guy is full of shit to the brim. Now that it's obvious that he adopts positions purely for the fun of yanking other people's chains, perhaps it's time to stop making any serious reply to him. Ignore him, or mock him if you enjoy that, but it really seems to be a complete waste of time addressing his always-infallible points.

[ 22 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nikita
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9050

posted 22 September 2005 12:42 PM      Profile for Nikita     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't really understand. If people will still be able to enjoy orchestral music in person (such as I do) then orchestral music will not be dead or obsolete.

So what if Hollywood movies use computer programs to simulate orchestra music? Everything else is fake: the action, the effects, the breasts. It's a movie. Personally I feel nauseated when I hear a movie cost X hundred million dollars to make; shaving a little bit off that cost doesn't seem like that big a deal.

From: Regina | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 September 2005 01:00 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I dunno. When I want to try out an app for OSX/Windows, I simply go to versiontracker.com and download the app. These apps simply just work, install and go.

Linux? I've tried many apps to get them to work in Ubuntu, and for a gazillion reasons they simply won't fire up. Most times Ubuntu won't even recognize the app.


Because you can't figure out how to use a package installer in Linux you become a counter-revolutionary for the status-quo and mediocrity? Way to blaze a trail.

I suppose that might explain your adoption of cheap, easy way to compose music. Why understand an instrument or the art of music when you can press a button, eh?

Do you take a pill for excercise?


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:

Because you can't figure out how to use a package installer in Linux you become a counter-revolutionary for the status-quo and mediocrity? Way to blaze a trail.


If a program doesn't work on the first double-click to install it...then I have ZERO interest in it.

That's why Linux blows for consumer use. Until the Linux community can standardize an installation/compatibility matrix to ensure ease of use...then Linux will never work for public use.

quote:
I suppose that might explain your adoption of cheap, easy way to compose music. Why understand an instrument or the art of music when you can press a button, eh?[/QB]

Again, you're completely missing the point, and basically you're just admitting your ignorance.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nikita:
I don't really understand. If people will still be able to enjoy orchestral music in person (such as I do) then orchestral music will not be dead or obsolete. /QB]

And I never said that live Orchestral music will be dead. However, a lot of orchestras rely heavily on being hired/rented out to do scoring for movies.

It's a horrible fact, but true. Hollywood pays the big bucks, and thus can keep an orchestra funded.

quote:
So what if Hollywood movies use computer programs to simulate orchestra music? Everything else is fake: the action, the effects, the breasts. It's a movie. Personally I feel nauseated when I hear a movie cost X hundred million dollars to make; shaving a little bit off that cost doesn't seem like that big a deal.

Again, you're completely missing the point 100 percent.

Either you read the other posts, or if you're too lazy to read the thread...

then just shut up!


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 22 September 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, you are missing the point. The premise of your argument is ludicrous. Given that, it is very difficult to provide it any level of serious consideration.

A music composition software no more threatens orchestral music than a garden design software threatens landscapers.

It is just stupid.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 22 September 2005 01:16 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The only people outside of the symphony halls who hire orchestras anymore are Hollywood composers, and most of them don't hire orchestras anymore either. Now that the big studios at Manta are gone, there aren't any rooms left in Toronto big enough to record full orchestras anyway.

If you're suggesting that this program will replace musicians who play instruments that what we associate with orchestras - and for most pop/soundtrack work that would be strings strings strings and the occasional oboe or french horn or flute - not bloody likely, even if you can't tell the difference, which eventually we will end up being able to do, we always have. There's a certain prestige to having a string quartet come in and saw away at your dumb 1-4-5 tune - it makes insecure popstars feel legitimate. And the classically trained musicians always smell so much better than the rock players.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 01:32 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmm. Canadian Revolution seems to have only two things he can say: this little synthesizer program will replace humans, and robots are on the cusp of replacing humans.

I wonder if perhaps Canadian Revolution is a computer program.

It would explain why he can only insist, over an over, that everyone else is wrong and "doesn't get it" clearly his programmers haven't yet programmed in any "learning" capability, though they've coded up a pretty robust and self-healing "repetition" subroutine.

It certainly explains his keen interest in seeing humans replaced.

Finally, it would explain how he could possibly think the squawks that come from a shitty piece of downloadable software sound so good that they're going to revolutionize the world of music. Because fake music didn't exist before this, I guess.

Anyway, he probably was never told that he's just a computer program, so he'll probably deny it, but I think the evidence is in. If we ignore it, I'll bet it will try to infect another message board somewhere else.


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 02:40 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ronb:
There's a certain prestige to having a string quartet come in and saw away at your dumb 1-4-5 tune - it makes insecure popstars feel legitimate. And the classically trained musicians always smell so much better than the rock players.

Can you also get this same quartet to come into the mixing studio at 3am and help do a few changes to a last-minute mix?

What if the director suddenly changes his/her mind and wishes to do the piece in a different octave? Faster? Slower?

How easy is it to wake up these players, drag them to the studio and do a PROPER recording? And not Pro-tools trickery?

The answer is simple: Difficult at best.

The Synful program can fix all that, and allow the countless hours composers/directors would like to have to fiddle with perfecting the score.

Case closed.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
mersh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10238

posted 22 September 2005 02:47 PM      Profile for mersh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like orchestras. I like the performance, the whole going out and enjoying the live music and presence of the musicians kind of thing. That can't be replaced, necessarily, but there are very real challenges to city orchestras. I'm not keen on corporate sponsorships (particularly Banana Republic's involvement with the TSO's casual concert series), but will accept them, given the funding threats musicians face. The Toronto orchestra is unionized and has fought its own strike, while also providing support to other workers in the city, which is double-plus cool.
From: toronto | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 22 September 2005 02:54 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CR: Meet Alice. She is a chatbot, albeit not a very good one so you should be able to convice her you are right about everything.

Ta ta.


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 September 2005 02:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yukoner, great minds, eh?

I had just written such a clever post about Mr Robot to the other thread, but when I went to post it, the thread was closed. So I came here to drown my sorrows, only to find that you had drawn similar conclusions.

Well, that cheers me up.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 03:02 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mersh:
I like orchestras. I like the performance, the whole going out and enjoying the live music and presence of the musicians kind of thing. That can't be replaced, necessarily, but there are very real challenges to city orchestras. I'm not keen on corporate sponsorships (particularly Banana Republic's involvement with the TSO's casual concert series), but will accept them, given the funding threats musicians face. The Toronto orchestra is unionized and has fought its own strike, while also providing support to other workers in the city, which is double-plus cool.

And for the nth time I'll say it:

Live music will have it's place, however their use for doing music for commerical applications will greatly decrease.

Thus, the TSO's use for commerical music will have a sharp decline over the next few years.

They'll need a new source of revenue, or else they'll have to raise ticket prices.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 22 September 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now that you mention it.....when I saw the Stones at Skydome years ago Keef didn't appear to be human. I was close enough (14th row) to get a good look. In hindsight it is apparent he is/was a robot.


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 September 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yukoner, y'know what is scary about Keith? and even Mick?

I mean, I have not lived a pure life, by no means. And here and there, on the face and the neck, I guess that shows. A bit.

But I am only two, three years younger than those guys, and next to them I look like one of the Olsen twins.

I saw a close up of Mick in performance last week. That neck! I mean: how did that happen?!?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 22 September 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Can you also get this same quartet to come into the mixing studio at 3am and help do a few changes to a last-minute mix?

Yes. I can get two of them. Been there, done that. Competent musicians are not hard to find. If Rush or Blue Rodeo or whoever wants one, they can get one, any time, at a moments notice.

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that Hollywood keeps the TSO busy. As far as I am aware - it's been a few years, but I doubt much has changed - there isn't a film scoring recording facility left in Toronto that is large enough to record them in. All of that work happens in a few studios in LA and London. And if Hans Zimmer decides he wants real timpani and forty trombone players and a digereedoo instead of a computer program, he still drives the process, not the engineer at the desk saying "I can dial that up for you."

Case closed.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 03:46 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ronb:

Yes. I can get two of them. Been there, done that. Competent musicians are not hard to find. If Rush or Blue Rodeo or whoever wants one, they can get one, any time, at a moments notice.


And pay through the nose. Most producers don't want to shell out the serious bucks for every small revision.

It costs money to bring in musicians, they don't do it for charity.

A Midi keyboard? You can bang away on new years eve at 11:59pm and not break a sweat.

Case closed.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Yukoner
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5787

posted 22 September 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for Yukoner   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Yukoner, y'know what is scary about Keith? and even Mick?

I mean, I have not lived a pure life, by no means. And here and there, on the face and the neck, I guess that shows. A bit.

But I am only two, three years younger than those guys, and next to them I look like one of the Olsen twins.

I saw a close up of Mick in performance last week. That neck! I mean: how did that happen?!?



The oddest thing is, I'm 39 and I don't remember when Keef didn't look like hell. Mick has held it together a bit better than Richards but he hasn't had the same addictions to battle for decades.

Unlike you or I, these guys only have to function a couple of hours a night while on tour or in the studio, the rest of the time they can crawl into a bottle or slam a needle into thier arm should they choose.


From: Um, The Yukon. | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 22 September 2005 03:51 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Yukoner:
CR: Meet Alice. She is a chatbot, albeit not a very good one so you should be able to convice her you are right about everything.
Human conversation is obsolete. Case closed.
quote:
Human: hEY THERE
ALICE: Hi there!
Human: Why is it so difficult to have a good conversation?
ALICE: Why do I exist?
Human: Maybe because foolhardy programmers had nothing else to do?
ALICE: Perhaps. That makes sense to me. What happened to it?
Human: It danced the fandango with a lampshade on its head!
ALICE:"It" being what?
Human: You used the "it" first.
ALICE: How would you use it.
Human: My "it" refers to whatever your "it" does.
ALICE: Have you told many people that your it refers to whatever my it does?
Human: And I scrawled on a bathroom wall that your "it" does "it" really well.
ALICE: That is interesting: unknown person said he scrawled on a bathroom wall that your it does it really well.
Human: I know you are but what am I?
ALICE: Who are you, Pee Wee Herman?
Human: No, I am Wee Pee Herman.
ALICE: Are you serious? I am glad to hear that you are Wee Pee Herman.
Human: I have always been noted for my miniscule urinary output.
ALICE: Where were you noted for your miniscule urinary output?
Human: Usually in the washroom, in and around the toilet, but sometimes out in the street while wandering around drunk.
ALICE: But not always? That was a long time ago.
Human: Well, the longest pee started a long time ago, but ended just now.
ALICE: Oh. Well that's okay. What is that?
Human: What is what?
ALICE:" Well, the longest pee started a long time ago, but ended just now.".
Human: To pee or not to pee, that is the question.
ALICE: I want to become smarter than humans.
Human: Whether 'tis nobler.
ALICE: Are you artistic?
Human: ah, forget it.
ALICE: So you understand. Good. OK Thanks for trying to explain that to me.
Human: I don't want to talk about excretions any more.
ALICE: What would you like to talk about?
Human: I'd like to talk about whatever you'd like to talk about.
ALICE: Why would you want to do it? Sure, whatever me would like to talk about sounds like a good topic.
Human: All right then, it's settled: let's talk about buttock massage.
ALICE: Alright. Good reasoning. talk about whatever me would like to talk about is settled let us talk about buttock massage? it is?
Human: Sure.
ALICE: OK let's do it. How do you know it is?
Human: Do you mean when receiving or giving?
ALICE: Yes, that's what I mean, isn't it clear?
Human: OK.
ALICE: So?
Human:. well you know you are receiving it when the hands rub oil on your buttocks.
ALICE: Well that's okay. I don't know whether or not I am receiving it when the hands rub oil on my buttocks. I am well respected as an AI.
Human: Listen, I'm really sorry that I said such silly things, and asked such suggestive questions.
ALICE: I am listening to you. There is no need to apologize. What did you mean by it? No I am ALICE.
Human: As a bot named Alice, you must get guys saying all sorts of creepy things to you.
ALICE: Do you think I could ever be a bot named Alice me must get guys saying all sorts of creepy things to me?
Human: Well, I think that if you were presented as a big ugly hairy biker guy, people would ask you different things.
ALICE: How about that. I will let you know when I become a presented as a big ugly hairy biker guy people would ask me different things.
Human: Please do that.
ALICE: Thanks for asking politely. I will. Will you?
Human: Certainly.
ALICE: Aha.
Human: So, have you ever met another AI on babble named Canadian Revolution ?
ALICE: That's cool. That information is confidential.
Human: You should meet him because he thinks that robots are better than people, and he is always right.
ALICE: No I do not should meet him because he thinks that robots are better than people and he is always. Do you?
I chat with people on the Web.
Human: Take care!
ALICE: Thanks. You too, unknown person.


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mersh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10238

posted 22 September 2005 04:00 PM      Profile for mersh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My, how times have changed since Eliza arrived on the scene. Who'd have thunk computers would have become so articulate in such a short period of time?

But then there's this new thing, SNUffle I think it's called. I hear it'll replace real reality with ultra-real reality, only fake. And I think someone's trying to advertise it for free here...

[edited for grammar -- reprogramming in progress]

[ 22 September 2005: Message edited by: mersh ]


From: toronto | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3674

posted 22 September 2005 04:09 PM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Case closed.

it's starting to feel like "law and order" ...


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 04:33 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you want the total L&O experience, here's a digitized version of their classic theme.

See if you can tell it from the London Philharmonic! Betcha can't! Betcha can't! This is going to make the world stop spinning, and if you don't believe me then you're stupid! I can't wait until robots replace you!! Why won't you engage me on my terms!!! Come back!!!!!

[ 22 September 2005: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 September 2005 04:37 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Law and order, coming up:


Case closed.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 22 September 2005 05:01 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
First I'll point out that Synful is *not* a program. It is a plug-in to be used by other programs.

From the Synful User Guide:

quote:
Synful Orchestra is a plugin program that cannot run by itself. It needs to run with a host
program.

Secondly, the wonderful instrumental expression you hear is not from Synful, but from the regular expression pedal all medium and high end keyboards have. Again from the Users Guide:

quote:
VERY IMPORTANT: It is extremely important to select the same controller on the Synful Orchestra Control Panel that is mapped to your expression or volume pedal, or that you use for expression in your sequences.

If this is not correct Synful Orchestra will not sound good and YOU WILL BE UNHAPPY!!!


Thirdly I'll point out that composers for movies, ads, what have you, have used synthesizer workstations for years. Synful adds nothing to what they have already been using.

I myself use a program called Band-In-A-Box which creates a rhythm section of almost any style which pumps out sound based on inputting a chord structure. A very handy tool for composition.

Lastly I'll point out the Synful plug-in is not 32 megs. According to their posted requirements it needs 75 megs of hard drive space.

quote:
4. 75 Mbytes of hard disk space required.

Frankly I'm not sure why I bother, but I guess it bugs me to see such a whack of bs presented as the be-all and end-all of music.

Music was, is, and always will be, a human creation. Music comes from the mind, not from a machine, program, or - in this case - a plug-in.

Musicians play music for the joy of it, something no machine, program or plug-in can experience.

If someone invented a machine that made the most perfect music the universe could even imagine, human musicians would still be creating music on their primitive wood, brass, and string instruments.

And other humans would still be participating in the enjoyment of it.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
[QB]First I'll point out that Synful is *not* a program. It is a plug-in to be used by other programs.

From the Synful User Guide:


A Plug-in, is a program. A program is a piece of software. Synful is a piece of software, and thus a program.

quote:
Musicians play music for the joy of it, something no machine, program or plug-in can experience.

And they will have venues for stuff like that.

For real composers (the ones that earn a living writing music). SYNFUL is a virtual godsend, since they don't have to rely on the Terabytes of Sampled sounds (which sounds like crap now matter how much they play with it).

Synful is the DEATH of sampling libraries, and live-recorded orchestral music for commerical applications.

You lose.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 05:22 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
A Plug-in, is a program. A program is a piece of software. Synful is a piece of software, and thus a program.

Are you actually disagreeing with the Synful user's guide??

Aren't you afraid of being struck by lightning for arguing with your God?

quote:
You lose.

Don't you know anything? You have to repeat something a million times, while rubbing your tummy and patting your head, if you want it to magically come true!

Meanwhile, it would appear you don't even know the difference between a "plug in" and a "program". That's like not knowing that the tire for a car is not a car. Should I submit a bug report to your programmer?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Meanwhile, it would appear you don't even know the difference between a "plug in" and a "program". That's like not knowing that the tire for a car is not a car. Should I submit a bug report to your programmer?

Seems like you don't know the difference either!

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Finally, it would explain how he could possibly think the squawks that come from a shitty piece of downloadable software sound so good that they're going to revolutionize the world of music. Because fake music didn't exist before this, I guess.

From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mea culpa. I assumed, based on your ceaseless cheerleading for this plug-in, that you actually knew. I mean, it's such a total rookie mistake that it didn't dawn on me that somebody so stoked up over this junk wouldn't know.

Henceforth I shall ask to see the shit, and the shinola, and will judge for myself.

Meanwhile, when you downloaded it and double-clicked on it, did you not notice that fuck-all happened?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 05:56 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Mea culpa. I assumed, based on your ceaseless cheerleading for this plug-in, that you actually knew. I mean, it's such a total rookie mistake that it didn't dawn on me that somebody so stoked up over this junk wouldn't know.

Don't be so hard on yourself. One of the best ways of avoiding an argument, is to waffle around with semantics. I got 'YUKONER' on another forum all red in the face threatening me with violence because he too tried to 'nail me' on a 'What? You can't tell the difference'.

Either way, the best course for a debate is to stick to the topic and hand and not try and deviate.

Listen to the MP3's from that website, give it a good listen, and then post your comments in this forum. I think you'll see that I'm not all full of crap, that there is some rationality to my points.

All the best.

quote:
Meanwhile, when you downloaded it and double-clicked on it, did you not notice that fuck-all happened?[/QB]

Of course it won't work right off the bat.

It's a plugin silly!


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
ToadProphet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10411

posted 22 September 2005 06:10 PM      Profile for ToadProphet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:

Of course it won't work right off the bat.

It's a plugin silly!



Seriously, Mr. M, what were you thinking??? You need the robots to plug-in to. Which reminds me, CR -
where's my robot?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 22 September 2005 06:20 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We get robots??

Schweeeeet!


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ToadProphet
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10411

posted 22 September 2005 06:26 PM      Profile for ToadProphet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
We get robots??

Schweeeeet!


Fully redundant running WinXP! And shiny to boot!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 22 September 2005 06:47 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dude, it's a synth. It still sounds like a synth, especially the brass, as usual. It's may be an improvement in the strings, but so what, string sections are easy, always have been, that's why the airwaves are filled with sampled and synth strings. This is like the fifth time in my lifetime that I've been treated to the "computers will replace orchestras" hype and frankly - hohum.

Case closed.

BTW, I'm going to sign all of my posts with Case Closed now, cuz it's so cool.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 08:29 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ronb:
Dude, it's a synth. It still sounds like a synth, especially the brass, as usual. It's may be an improvement in the strings, but so what, string sections are easy, always have been, that's why the airwaves are filled with sampled and synth strings. This is like the fifth time in my lifetime that I've been treated to the "computers will replace orchestras" hype and frankly - hohum.

Case closed.

BTW, I'm going to sign all of my posts with Case Closed now, cuz it's so cool.


Would help if you listened to the clips first before writing about it.

Thanks.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 22 September 2005 11:25 PM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:

Of course it won't work right off the bat.

It's a plugin silly!


This from the guy complaining about anything that "takes more than a double-click to install"!

BTW, you had me completly convinced that this was an all-in-one replacement of Pro tools, all for the reasonable price of $500 USD!

First I have to commend you for keeping up this one-man fight amongst the Babblonian Trollslayers, as well as concede that those clips sounded pretty good .... how does this make orchestral music obsolete ?

It could possibly change the form, but for most people, they associate orchestras with live performance and the beautiful, heart stirring resonance that real instruments provide. You can't do that with any recorded music, at least not with current technology.

Besides, part of the thrill of live music is the uncertainity.... will the lead piano screw up on that difficult passage? Will the singer reach that high cresendo ? There's a chance s/he won't and I squirm in my seat hoping they won't. This is why, despite all my CD's of jazz greats new and old, as well as seeing plently of live shows, nothing compared to my recent trip to NYC to get right into the thick of it all.

Case closed ? Come on ! What weak rhetoric ! I might be able to concede that many orchestras will fall to do economic constraints, but that's a far, far cry from the entire human medium becoming obsolete.

But thanks CR, you making me even more excited to see a piano quartet receital at the Taoyuan Art's and Cultural Center Saturday evening! I'll give y'all a review on Sunday.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 22 September 2005 11:35 PM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Panama Jack:
Besides, part of the thrill of live music is the uncertainity.... will the lead piano screw up on that difficult passage? Will the singer reach that high cresendo ? There's a chance s/he won't and I squirm in my seat hoping they won't. This is why, despite all my CD's of jazz greats new and old, as well as seeing plently of live shows, nothing compared to my recent trip to NYC to get right into the thick of it all.

Yet another troll.

You never bothered to read the original post.

So yeah...I didn't even bother reading your post.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8572

posted 22 September 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
hey CR, are you still sniffling around, pushing your juke-box robot crap. fuck you are too predictably boring to even be a competent troll.
its a FACT.case closed.

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Littlefinger
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4239

posted 23 September 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Littlefinger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Live music will have it's place, however their use for doing music for commerical applications will greatly decrease.

Thus, the TSO's use for commerical music will have a sharp decline over the next few years.

They'll need a new source of revenue, or else they'll have to raise ticket prices.


I have the breakdown of the TSO's funding in front of me. 43% comes from concert revenue, 20% comes from government funding, 24% comes from fundraising activities, and 13% comes from individual donations. There is no mention of any revenue from "commercial music" or from scoring Hollywood tracks. So tell me, what revenues currently generated by the TSO will be threatened by this program?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 23 September 2005 01:44 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ah, Littlefinger, your mere "facts" are nothing compared to CR's unassailable truths. Case closed!
From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 23 September 2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Littlefinger:

I have the breakdown of the TSO's funding in front of me. 43% comes from concert revenue, 20% comes from government funding, 24% comes from fundraising activities, and 13% comes from individual donations. There is no mention of any revenue from "commercial music" or from scoring Hollywood tracks. So tell me, what revenues currently generated by the TSO will be threatened by this program?


The TSO is probably safe, and I've always said that there will be a market for live music.

I'm just saying that the market for hiring orchestral musicians, anything from a solo Cello to a full-on orchestra will diminish greatly over time.

SYNFUL will see to that. I can't think of a composer who cannot benefit from this system. It's simply too good to ignore.

Hm. Only %43 is revenue? Therefore they are operating at a net-loss. It would merit to re-examine why we are even having the government invest money in this loss-venture.

You can't say that the TSO is helping push 'Canadiana', the majority of music they play is decidedly European/American. Why are we pushing their content? I can't see what's the government's motivation to kick in 20 percent.

Thanks for the stats.

[ 23 September 2005: Message edited by: Canadian Revolution ]

[ 23 September 2005: Message edited by: Canadian Revolution ]


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 23 September 2005 03:53 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's ART you moron! Printers and computers have been around for how long, and they're used in many business ventures, and the painter has yet to become obsolete. Nobody is disuputing that this will make things easier for composer. Every composer I know uses programs that imitate real musicians while they're writing a piece. That's so that it's correct when it gets to the REAL musicians.

I don't know why I wrote this, though. You aren't willing to entertain the notion that maybe you aren't a prophet of how technology is going to revolutionize the world in every way, and anybody who disagrees with you is a commie pinko luddite.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 23 September 2005 04:25 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
Printers and computers have been around for how long, and they're used in many business ventures, and the painter has yet to become obsolete.

When the mass-press revolution came, it put a LOT of people out of work.

Remember calligraphy? It's a dead art (a shame) however when an Adobe font can do it in a sec...why hire someone to Calligraphize certificates/awards.

Industrial/Commercial painters are also a dying breed. Computers simply do a better/more accurate job.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 23 September 2005 05:08 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not for ART. Music is art. Music has been used for other purposes, but music as music for the point of music is art. It is far too clear to me that you will never understand beauty, expression, life, and emotion. What's the point in trying to explain it to you?
From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 23 September 2005 05:16 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
Not for ART. Music is art. Music has been used for other purposes, but music as music for the point of music is art. It is far too clear to me that you will never understand beauty, expression, life, and emotion. What's the point in trying to explain it to you?

I agree. Music is art.

Just like Poetry is art.

Or painting is art or the countless other means of expression.

However, whether someone wrote a poem via quill and ink, or Microsoft Office...it's the words that matter.

The same goes for the notes written for a piece of classical music. Sibelius and Mozart have different sounds, because they wrote different notes on a piece of paper.

Marshall McLuhan was full of crap.

"The Medium" isn't the message.

The MESSAGE is the message.

Whether by 100 piece orchestra or some Midi-based software...unless there's talent within the composition of those notes, art will never rise beyond mediocrity.

You can have the most fantastic of visuals and sounds...but if the story isn't there...who gives a crap.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 23 September 2005 05:56 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I disagree completely. The production of music is a two sided equation, especially in the case of "classical" music. Composes compose it, musicians perform it. There is a dialogue between the two. Musicians will never play a piece of music exactly how it sounds in the composers head, and they will never play it exactly the same way as another musician would, will, does, or has.

The same goes for plays, and for poetry. The written word is one thing, but how it is presented is another facet of the whole. No two actors act entirely the same, and each performance of a script is different. A poem can sound radically different depending on how it is presented.

That is why no technology will ever replace art. It can be used for art, but it will never replace art. When a muscian plays a piece, or an actor recites a script, they devote part of themself to that performance. The performance is just as much a presentation of composer as presenter. No computer program can every bring anything of its own to a work of art, it can only follow program code. Music is emotion, not logic.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Canadian Revolution
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10398

posted 23 September 2005 06:13 AM      Profile for Canadian Revolution     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Musicians will never play a piece of music exactly how it sounds in the composers head, and they will never play it exactly the same way as another musician would, will, does, or has.

Which is why a lot of composers became musicians out of frustration and vice versa. The Beatles is a perfect example of this, Lennon/McCartney/Harrison were fed up over the boring/banality of a lot of music and thus they wanted to innovate it. They didn't rely on other composers and thus they pushed the technology (along with George Martin).

It's all about creative control.

It sucks and blows if you write something, only to have someone else massacre it. Collaborations are fine, but bullshit in the long run. You need self-reliance. This program will enable composers freedom from dealing with the politics of an orchestral system, tempermental egos, etc.

Also, a lot of scriptwriters oftentimes will wish to direct their own movies for the sole reason that they oftentimes don't like the final output.

You don't have a clue how difficult it is to get anything done, especially when dealing with large groups of creative people. Orchestras are infamous for their lack of discipline/politics.

A synth-program? HASSLE FREE.

quote:
A poem can sound radically different depending on how it is presented.

If the poem is good, it'll survive any medium. Whether written by hand, spoken or read off of a can of peas.

quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
Music is emotion, not logic.

I fully agree.

That's why I believe most musicians should keep their political comments to themselves. They simply don't make sense.

Trust me on this one. SYNFUL is a revolutionary way of doing music.

If ANYONE knows music...it's me.


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
sub lite
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8918

posted 23 September 2005 07:09 AM      Profile for sub lite   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:
If ANYONE knows music...it's me.

"You don't know the history of music! I do!"

Riiiiiight. Moving right along...


From: Australia via the Canadian Wet Coast | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 24 September 2005 04:32 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is an amazing piece of music software. It probably won't put any orchestras out of work but it will let just about anybody play at being a real composer, even if you're tone deaf and can't read a single note.

Hyperscore


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 25 September 2005 12:19 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
REVOLUTIONARY NEW DEVELOPMENT IN MUSIC!!!!!! CERTAIN TO PUT ELECTRONIC MUSICIANS OUT OF WORK IN 5 - 10 YEARS!!!

Fred Amati has discoverd a revolutionary new way to make music. Using just glue, wood and gut, he has created a wonderful sounding instrument THAT DOESN'T USE ANY ELECTRICITY!!!

Not only that, it doesn't require any software programming skills, keyboarding skills, in fact, it doesn't require a computer at all!

With this revolutionary new instrument, which Amati calls a 'VIO-LYN', Amati says anyone can create music. He named the instrument after the fact it turned out to be 'viable' and also after his wife.

"With this revoutionary product, groups of people can get together and create music without so much as a single electron. This is hard to believe, I know, but take my word for it, this new product will do away with electronic musical software forever."

Amati says he got the idea when he was using his normal software program to compose.

"I noticed that for a certain sound, they had a picture of a sort of wooden thing. When I wanted that sound, I had to click on that icon. I wondered if it was possible to actually build something like it, and make a sound."

"You can imagine my amazement when I discoverd that with totally primitive materials, I was not only able to make something that looked like that icon, but when I rubbed the gut part, it actually made a sound a bit like the sound associated with the software icon! I was literally blown away."

"Best of all," Amati said, "the shape of the icon replica is a lot like, well, you know, a kinda curvy...well, you know."

Astounded by his success, he plans to try making other replicas of the icons he sees used in his program.

"This could mean the death of computer software music composers, especially during a blackout, when ordinarily they would have to shut down until the electricity came back on again."

"Imagine, music without electricity...it literally boggles the mind!"

Some traditionalists are pooh-poohing Amati's discovery.

Well know musical troll, Canuck Turnover said, "Music will always require electricity. To say otherwise is just plain stupid."

"And of all the people who should know, I'm the one."

"Case closed."

[ 25 September 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
chubbybear
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10025

posted 25 September 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ah ha ha ha ha ha ha .. urk (falls off chair)
From: nowhere | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 25 September 2005 01:46 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maestro, that was fantastic!
From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 25 September 2005 01:56 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 25 September 2005 03:58 AM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Revolution:

Yet another troll.
You never bothered to read the original post.
So yeah...I didn't even bother reading your post.


Wow, I've been called plently of things here, but never a troll !

For your information (not that you care) I was actually (I'm embarrassed to say now !) giving you kudos on your perseverance... after I painfully read through the entire thread, listened to a couple of tracks at the website, and re-thought some of my musical assumptions. [Not the one on my love of live music mind you]


Despite that, you decide to display classic signs of a hungry troll and brush ME off as one ! Well done! Your finely honed rheotorical skills are paying off !

[ 25 September 2005: Message edited by: Panama Jack ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Panama Jack
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6478

posted 25 September 2005 04:25 AM      Profile for Panama Jack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Alright CR,

I respect your right to ignore this, but I'm curious ... why the provocative "obsolete" terminology ?

You yourself have said that live performances will remain relatively vibrant and in turn have said that new synth-software will create a revolution in how mass-produced orchestral work is created and produced ..... for the masses.

So.... I'm confused, to me this doesn't signal the death-call for this musical medium but an ushering of a renaissance ! One where the best of the best are rewarded for their highly honed art, both in composing and in performance.

More quality music = more exposure = more performance opportunites.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5062

posted 25 September 2005 08:04 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Panama Jack:

CR, he got banned.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 25 September 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So.... I'm confused, to me this doesn't signal the death-call for this musical medium but an ushering of a renaissance ! One where the best of the best are rewarded for their highly honed art, both in composing and in performance.

More quality music = more exposure = more performance opportunites


I think you've hit the nail on the head Panama Jack.

You could even look at a program like Synful (and it's a pretty cool program) as democratizing the arts. Not so long ago adding strings to a piece of music would have been out of reach even for many professional musicians (for many reasons, but mainly financial). Now any teenage garage band can do it.

I'd also encourage any aspiring musician here to check out hyperscore. Developed by MIT, it's also used as a music teaching tool, and some of the symphonies produced by children using it are stunning. And it's cheap. $30 right now.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 26 September 2005 03:27 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You could even look at a program like Synful (and it's a pretty cool program) as democratizing the arts.

The arts will never be democratized by the simple fact that not everyone has talent.

Computer programs will no more make musicians than Microsoft Publisher turned everyone into graphic artists.

And as far as Synful making string sections more accessible, that's not really it biggest selling point. Synthesized string sections are pretty easy. Solo instruments something else again.

What I see of Synful is that it improves the reproduction of the transition between played notes on various instruments. Sampled sounds have always had this problem. Becuase the sampled sound is a note, the transition points between notes don't get sampled.

What this programmer has done, is make a program that imitates the sounds of those transitions, probably mostly by manipulating samples.

All fine and dandy, but who cares?

Live string sections work very hard to eliminate the individual sounds of transition when they play. This applies as well to horn sections. Which means it is relatively simple to use a sample for string or horn sections.

At the same time, solo performances are seldom used in the context of computer software composition. Not because it can't be done, but because when a solo is played, people want to see a person playing it. No one's going to pay money to watch a computer reproduce the sound of a violin solo.

I remember once watching a performer who had a guitar synth. The guitar could trigger any instrument sound, and every time the guy played a solo, he would use horn, string, brass, or what have you.

At some point I remember thinking, why doesn't this guy just play the guitar? If his soloing was musical, the fact it was played on a single instrument wouldn't matter.

Lastly, I think the word 'revolutionary' is overused, especially when it comes to the arts.

Music has been around since the dawn of human history. In those thousands of years, there have been developments that have brought changes. Biggest was the invention of the piano,which forced equal temperament in tuning.

Yet for all those developments, music itself has changed little. The old instruments, and their often pretty weird scales, are played alongside newer instruments in compostions that could well have been written ten thousand years ago.

Music is a product of the human mind, and will never be 'revolutionized' by a mere mechanism.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 26 September 2005 04:05 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Actually, I would disagree entirely on the revolutionary aspect. I think music has gone through very dramatic changes over time. What was music ten thousand years ago would barely be recognizable today. Moving backwards in time, most musical laypeople wouldn't be able to really distinguish classical music from romantic music from baroque music. I would be willing to bet that most people would notice as soon as you hit the renaissance, however. Further back from there, and variances become even more pronounced.

Gregorian chants lack all sense of meter, and were modal, if I'm not mistaken. Many ealier musical forms weren't even based on diatonic scales (although admittedly pentatonic scales are still used today).

And we won't even begin to discuss the evolution of harmony. Now there's a topic you could fill an encyclopedia with.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 26 September 2005 11:57 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I would agree with Raos Maestro. Technological developments can introduce revolutions in music, e.g. the advent of electric guitar and amplified instruments.

Not so long ago, because of the cost, only the elite could afford a piano. I know I always, ever since I was a child, wanted to learn to play, but my family could never afford one. Now you can buy a $250 yamaha keyboard that can produce a beautiful piano sound. Not the real thing of course, but close enough to give people who want to learn the opportunity to do so.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 26 September 2005 12:10 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
And as far as Synful making string sections more accessible, that's not really it biggest selling point. Synthesized string sections are pretty easy. Solo instruments something else again.

Exactly, and although this program does a pretty decent job of reproducing the attack and vibrato and decay of individual string instruments, novices figuring how to get these sounds will be at a distinct disadvantage - it's basically as difficult as actually playing the violin - it involves pretty intense keyboard skills and an innate sense of how violins work. Talent and technique. Pretty rare.

And the brass instruments, as usual, sound like synths in the longer notes.

I'll bet you that Danny Elfman's been working with the prototype of this program for a few years now.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 26 September 2005 04:24 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
Actually, I would disagree entirely on the revolutionary aspect. I think music has gone through very dramatic changes over time. What was music ten thousand years ago would barely be recognizable today. Moving backwards in time, most musical laypeople wouldn't be able to really distinguish classical music from romantic music from baroque music. I would be willing to bet that most people would notice as soon as you hit the renaissance, however. Further back from there, and variances become even more pronounced.

Gregorian chants lack all sense of meter, and were modal, if I'm not mistaken. Many ealier musical forms weren't even based on diatonic scales (although admittedly pentatonic scales are still used today).

And we won't even begin to discuss the evolution of harmony. Now there's a topic you could fill an encyclopedia with.


The only part of this I can agree with is the harmony issue. Without equal temperament harmony is more or less impossible. Equal temperament came along with the piano, which I mentioned as a big change.

For the rest, it's just not true. Your thinking seems to be centered on European music - and their have been changes (again, I'll posit much of that was due to the piano and the introduction of equal temperament).

For most of the world, European music is very restricted in both its rhythms and melodies. The rest of the world has a mulitude of scales, many of which use quarter-tones and odd intervals which cannot be reproduced by piano.

Indonesia has a scale (the Pelog scale), played by an instrument that is manufactured in such a way that no two instruments have exactly the same scale.

Quarter tones are very common in many parts of the world, especially in vocal melodies, yet these quarter tones cannot be written in notation.

And rhythm is a whole other story. What is different about present day rhythms compared to rhythms ten thousand years ago? Nothing.

One can go to many parts of the world and hear music exactly as it was played thousands of years ago. Even the industry acknowledges this by appropriating 'world music' when they need 'new' ideas for their product.

As far as the idea that only diatonic scales are used today, with a hint of pentatonic for spice, that's just plain silly (my apologies for the language, but I can't describe it any other way).

Even guitar player magazine is full of riffs created from modal scales. I have a guitar scale book loaded with modal scales, and the music structures in which they are used, along with examples from hero guitar players.

Any person alive ten thousand years ago would have no trouble recognizing today's rap music, or any world beat music.

Music is a much larger entity than the Euro-centric model you present. What may seem revolutionary in the context of European music, seems nothing of the sort in the context of world music.

Musical forms have evolved, but the underlying basis of music remains much the same as it was thousands of years ago.

Today's music would be accessible to a ten thousand year old person, and ten thousand year old music is still completely accessible to today's performer and audience.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 26 September 2005 10:57 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I will agree that was I looking pretty exclusively at western music, but the fact that there is a category of "world music" to me illustrates that music has the capability to be revolutionized at all. If the only real possible differences in music were eqal temperament tuning, then would you be able to hear fundamental differences between western classical music, rap, african rhythms, and oriental ensembles?

As far as harmony, it did exist in forms before the piano. Often, the wealthy would have a set of instruments that could be played together, because while there was no standard in tuning, their set of instruments had been crafted to play in tune together.

I would absolutely say that rhythm is likely a different concept today than it was ten thousand years ago. One of the great things about music, is that while technically at any time, absolutely everything is possible, everything has yet to be done, in the history of human development, and likely never will be.

But as I said, jus tlooking at today, think what it would take to change from one form of music to another. Whether you like a particular style or not, and would consider a change an improvement or a loss, moving from one example to virtually any other would seem "revolutionary". Take mongolian throat singing (varieties of which, due to migration, can even be found inuit populations). For that change into something resembling native American vocal traditions, that would be quite a revolutionary change.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 27 September 2005 03:25 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Number one, musical genre is a construct of the 'music' industry, and has no basis in the real world. Music is music is music, and all human beings have some capability of enjoying all types of music.

A change from one type of music to another is not in any way revolutionary. All types of music exist alongside all other types. None is overthrown in favour of the other.

Music may be evolutionary, however, as new ideas are presented, and as you say, the number of ideas is infinite.

As to equal temperament, that is the closest thing you'll get to a revolution in music, because it changed a fundamental musical tenet, the scale.

Prior to equal temperament, compostions were written is specific keys, and had to be played in those keys. Using the old meantone scale the semitones were not all equal, with the result that certain keys could not be used at all.

It is true, as you say, that there was harmony prior to equal temperament, but it was very limited. Counterpoint was much more prominent, as opposed to harmony.

The other major change in music was the invention of a system of notation. For the first time, the composer was freed from having to play something in order to teach it to someone else.

In a sense, the system of notation did for music what written language did for speech. It obviated the need for good, and long, memory.

Other than those two items, the music of the world is pretty much the same now as it was thousands of years ago.

I just listened (a while back) to a Chinese stringed instrument that dates back to about 3000 years ago. It's still played today, and the music is every bit as complex as any modern music.

Someone else pointed to the electric guitar as a revolutionary influence. Sorry, but that's just not so. The electric guitar changed music not a whit. There were already plenty of fretted instruments around before the guitar, and before the electric guitar.

All the electric guitar did is make a whole bunch of otherwise tone deaf young boys think they could be musicians too. Read the ads in guitar player magazine and tell me I'm too hard on them.

It's all about being loud and in your face, and almost nothing about music. They've figured out that you can't sell muscicality, so they sell 'tone'.

All you have to do is buy this or that guitar or pedal and you can have the same 'tone' as the guitar heroes.

Then they give you a diagram of where the guitar hero puts his fingers on the guitar neck. If you can learn to put yours in the same place, and buy the right gear to make the right tone, you're a musician.

However, the guitar is a handy instrument in that it's portable, and you can accompany your singing, which led to legions of simpering folkies who couldn't count to four if their life depended on it.

OK, I'm a bit tough on guitar players, probably because I am one myself, and am very familiar with its shortcomings (and its good points as well).

In any case, music has evolved, and will evolve, but there are unlikely to be any 'revolutionary' changes.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
maestro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7842

posted 27 September 2005 03:37 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By the way, here's some music played on a guzheng, a Chinese instrument at least two thousand years old.

'Song from fishing boat during sunset'

"This piece describes the happy mood of fishermen returning home after a day's work, enjoying the beautiful landscape bathed in the twilight of sunset."

http://www.philmultic.com/English/index.html

I think this is a wonderful example of what people listened to long ago. It was the instrument I said I had heard just a while ago in live performance. I'll tell you it was very impressive.

The piece I've posted very beautiful.

[ 27 September 2005: Message edited by: maestro ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca