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Author Topic: The Portrayal of Women in Video Games
preprecocious
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posted 27 July 2001 11:55 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Everyone, I'm currently beginning a research project on this subject. It'd be really helpful if you can provide games which portray women in a negative way. Eg. A friend of mine has alerted me to one wherein you can alter the breast size of one of the female characters (??)-You get the idea. OH and positive reps are welcome as well (you decide what's -ve and +ve)....thanks.
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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 02:18 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lara Croft was an excellent ruff an tuff role model, until I saw her go all softy in the movie.
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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 02:42 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How far back are you going? What systems are you studying? Only consols or computer games too?

Check-out any of the Final Fantasy video games, all have female characters that are very powerful. There's a "leading role" for women in Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and IX.

Parasite Eve. The character you play is a female cop in New York. There's a sequel to this game aswell. She's an ass-kicker.

For computers, there are plenty of female characters. I know the role-playing games well. Ice Wind Dale. Baldurs Gate I and II. All are great for women.

Lemme think of more.

Trin.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 02:58 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are a few games where you could choose to play a male or female. Paperboy II comes to mind. So does Nights Into Dreams.

How far back you're going makes a huge difference. Many of the older games never specified the gender of the main character, and the resolution of the graphics was too poor to tell for sure. For all we know, a woman could have been piloting the little ship in Defender or driving the racing car in Pole Position

Most of the RPG games gave you the option of playing a female character (who was usually some "green" druid-type character, or an elf, or something like that).

I've never seen any games that portrayed women really "negatively", though there are umpteen games where the male lead has to "save the princess". There are innumerable games out there that I haven't played, of course. Your mileage may vary.

I assume there are plenty of folk who object to the use of "evil witches" in video games.

Virtually all of the tournament fighting games (Street Fighter, Mortal Combat, etc) included female characters. Some of them had pretty skimpy outfits, and some of them didn't. Some folks think the female characters in those games weren't as powerful as the male characters. I wonder if that's just bias on the part of the players. I know I got my ass kicked plenty of times when I fought the female characters in those games.

Really annoying portrayals of females in games could come from the many Barbie games that have been made over the years. How about the Strawberry Shortcake game for the Atari 2600? There's software made for girls now that I doubt you'd really call a "game", like virtual makeover software. Is that negative?

In Super Mario Bros. II you could play Princess Toadstool. She kicked ass in that game. It was quite a departure from her role as the helpless princess in other Mario games.

I don't know of very many sports games that featured women players. Super Dodge Ball had female players, and so did some tennis games.

The size and history of the video game industry is really quite vast. It really does depends on the platform you're talking about, the genre of game you're talking about, what era of gaming you're talking about, etc.

Do you count games where gender is completely irrelevant, such as Civilization or Sim City?

It also depends on how you define "negative". Lots of people think Lara Croft is a kick-ass role-model, and others think she's terrible because her body shape is so unrealistic.

Have you searched for "Women in Video Games" at Google.com?

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 03:12 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I like to play Tony Hawk's Pro Skater with the kids. There's a chic that can skate on there. I'm just not very good at giving directions.
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verbatim
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posted 30 July 2001 03:13 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hmmm... there are games that portray women negatively, or at least cater to latent misogyny in male players. Duke Nukem comes to mind (the only women in the game are strippers and sex objects), but that franchise can probably hide behind the ridiculousness of the game generally. It's a fun game, but it could lose the smut element and still be fun.

An unfortunate side-effect of knowing (but not necessarily being friends with) misogynist geeks is witnessing the glee with which they kill and maim female enemies in FPS games. It's sad, sad, sad to witness.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 03:16 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, what are "FPS games"?
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verbatim
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posted 30 July 2001 03:18 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"First-Person Shooter" like Quake, Half-Life, et. al.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 03:19 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank you kindly!

What's the percentage of FPS games where they don't specify the gender of the player's character? Obviously, Duke Nuke'Em is a guy. What about the player's character in Doom?

Most of those FPS games totally remind me of Aliens, incidentally. Could Ripley not be the inspiration for some of them?

Is it less sad when players experience pleasure from killing a male villain?

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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verbatim
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posted 30 July 2001 03:46 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Let's say watching someone chase down the female enemies screaming "Die Bitch! Die you F*cking C*nt! I'm gonna f*ck your corpse!" doesn't happen with the male enemies... Issues, anyone?
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 03:50 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With the exception of the "fucking the corpse" reference, I've heard equally vulgar language come from killing male villains. Is "die mother-fucker" less offensive than "take that you bitch"?
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Athena Dreaming
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posted 30 July 2001 03:57 PM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Doesn't it bother anyone else here that the female protagonists in video games are so clearly tokens?

I mean, you'll have something like mortal kombat with five or six men with varying skills--and, oh yeah, one chick.

And Lara Croft--blech. A fantasy constructed for adolescent males who want to oggle outlandishly large breasts while they visit death and destruction on their enemies. NO thanks. Show me the male characters visually designed for women in such a blatantly sexual way.

Oh, there are none? Huh.

I did think Duke Nukem was pretty revolting.

VT--blech. That's creepy.

Unfortunately I mostly play strategy games, so it's hard for me to contribute. Actually I was sort of impressed with the Alpha Centauri game. There are I think 3 female players (out of a total of 7) and none of them are what you would call wimps--or even all that pretty. Same thing with teh extension (Alien Crossfire). I'm trying to think back to the Civ games I used to play and I think you had the option. You picked a country (Roman, American, whatever) and then decided if you wanted to play a man or a woman. And I don't think it made any difference in the game at all. That was pretty cool.

Then there's always ones like Flight Simulator. Doesn't matter there either.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:05 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who's the market for tournament fighting games? How many girls like that kind of game? Would more girls play tournament fighting games if there were more female characters? Do you WANT more girls to be playing tournament fighting games? If tournament fighting games had more girls, wouldn't some people complain that THAT was sexist, since the games would be portraying women as being violent? How would the women in this fabled "all-woman tournament fighting game" be dressed? What would they look like? In a game that's basically about kicking the snot out of the other player, why is what the character looks like so important? Does a game that's about pure, mindless violence suddenly become politically correct if it features fat women wearing coveralls?


What would a male video-game character, designed for the sexual titillation of women, look like? What would his role in the game be? Who would the villains in a game like that be? How many women would really buy a game like that? Would it be worth spending the money to develop a game like that?

I think they do make games for the sexual titillation of teenaged girls. Are there not games out there like the old "mystery date" board game, where girls design their "perfect boyfriend"? I'm sure I've seen games like that advertised.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 04:05 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is the average amount of video game playing done by males or females? Anyone know the stats on that?

As for the 'tokenism', how many players do you usually control at once? One. Enough for me.

Lara Croft is nicely physically endowed. She is also fit and fearless. Angelina Jolie did her best with a crap script that had truck-sized holes in the plot. I don't think she appeared much different than she did in the video game, and I don't think that she's anything near a bad physical shape for girls to look up to - she's healthy, not skinny.

This harkens back to a thread about the magazine industry - don't people 'get' it, that it is merely fantasy? I could be a crocodile in CROC, just as easily as I could be Lara Croft.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:13 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've seen stats, but I couldn't quote them for you, or provide you with any references (sorry!). In general, more guys play video/computer games than girls do, though more girls are playing games now than in the past.

Generally, girls play strategy games (ie, Civilization, Alpha Centauri) far more than action/adventure games (ie Doom) or sports games. The primary market for puzzle games (Tetris, Dr. Mario) is girls. The most popular game among women at the moment is The Sims.


Should violent games never feature female villains? Doesn't that just reinforce the idea that women are always good and need to be protected, and that only men are violent and evil? We realize that's not true in real life, don't we?

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 04:20 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah. I go for the shotguns almost every time. They also tried to make me wear pink, though. That'll make you want to play Tombraider.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:24 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thank heavens for the exception to the rule!!! Dawna, I bet I'd suffer a royal ass-kicking if I tried to take you on in some multi-player game.

I WISH I could somehow convince my girlfriend that action/adventure games can be fun. Playing by yourself gets boring after a while. All she ever wants to play is Dr. Mario. Yawn!


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 04:32 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When I was a kid I had a marginally older brother, and since I always wanted to play with him more than he wanted to play with me, it was usually War on the cliffs near our house. I guess I just ended up liking that better than 'shopping' and 'house'. And with a video game, I don't have to get my knees dirty and my hair full of sand.
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verbatim
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posted 30 July 2001 04:36 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
This harkens back to a thread about the magazine industry - don't people 'get' it, that it is merely fantasy? I could be a crocodile in CROC, just as easily as I could be Lara Croft.
I think the problem is that most people today have stunted imaginations thanks to the advent of visual mediums like TV, and so when they play a video game -- even thought they're nominally playing Lara Croft -- they're playing as themselves.

I see this a lot on massively multiplayer online (MMORPG) games like EverQuest and Asheron's Call, where people are encouraged to make up their own characters and play as if they were a certain kind of person. Almost invariably people have a very difficult time imagining how someone else might behave or react to a situation (although I have also found that women playing characters are more willing to at least try role-playing). I know several guys who admit that they play female characters in games "to look at their ass."

KBMB: It's sad when someone experiences genuine glee at killing anything -- even for pretend. But, in many cases, there's an extra dimension of sadness attached to the killing of female-identified "mobiles" because of the added psychological meaning it has for the player.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:38 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I had two older sisters and no brothers. I sorta liked playing "house", I had a Cabbage Patch Kid, and loved playing with my sisters' old Easy-Bake oven. I also liked playing with GI Joes, Star Wars toys, our Atari 2600, and rolling around in the mud outside. I don't see why someone has to choose one kind of play over the other.

Of course, all the other kids tended to think I was odd since I continued to play with action figures and lego and stuff well into high school. Tee hee.


And I completely reject the idea that it's worse to kill a female villain in a computer game than it is to kill a male villain. IMHO, that's just the reinforcement of a stereotype that men are disposable and women have to be protected.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 04:40 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A game is a game, though, VT. As for your bud, the one playing as a chic to check out her ass, that's pretty pathetic.
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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 04:44 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Preprecocious, have you played many video games? Are you male or female? How old are you?

Very interesting study, what platforms are you studying, and how far back in time are you going?

"Fat women in overalls..." LOLOL Mediaboy, you kill me! Good Point about Mario II, Princess toadstool was one of the best you could play b/c she could float.

I started playing video games when I was a toddler. I started on Coleco and the keyboard you could plug into your TV and moved up to Atari. I've played tonnes of games, from the original Donkey Kong when mario was first introduced jumping barrels, to Q-bert, to Smurfs, to Duck-hunt, Hang-on, Afterburner, Double Dragon, Wonderboy, Zelda, Tetris, Spyro the Dragon, 007, and Parasite Eve... to name a few.

I played Sonia in all of the Mortal Kombats and kicked ass... Sheva was very tough.

Haven't played Tomb Raider.

Right now I'm finishing-off the 20th Anniversary of Pacman for Playstation... I guess that fits the "puzzle game" genre... but it also has the mario-style adventure
game that I enjoyed and finished.

If there is a game where I can choose the sex, I think I usually go with the female, unless she is very weak... I can't remember when that happened.

As a kid and a woman, I loved and still enjoy playing video games. All of my sisters do too.

I'm sure there are offensive games out there. But you can find that in any form of entertainment, art or literature.

-Trinitty


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:45 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey, my sisters watched Battle of the Planets because they thought Mark and Jason were cute (for cartoon characters).

What about Anime? Lots of people (male and female) find animated characters sexually attractive? Is that pathetic?

Why is it pathetic to find a computer character sexually attractive? After all, it isn't politically correct to check out a REAL woman's ass nowadays. Maybe checking out a computer-generated woman's ass is a harmless way of getting that titillation.


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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 04:50 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good point.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:51 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When a game gives me the option of a female or male character, I pretty much choose either gender equally. I get bored playing the same thing all the time, and even an aesthetic difference like the gender of the character can make a difference. I play Virtua Fighter a fair bit, and I like playing the teenage girl. It's really comical when she kicks some giant dude's ass and then giggles like a schoolgirl.

Ms. Pac-Man was a WAY better game than Pac-Man. She MUST be the first feminist video game character. After all, she doesn't call herselt Mrs!

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 04:53 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mediaboy,

I can't remember, what was the difference other than the pink bow?


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 04:56 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I remember correctly, in Pac-Man once you finished a level and went on to the next level, it got more difficult but the maze never actually changed. In Ms. Pac-Man there were a whole bunch of different mazes for you to tackle.

And the Atari version of Pac-Man had a really shitty maze. The Atari version of Ms. Pac-Man was more true to the arcade version.


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posted 30 July 2001 04:58 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why is it un-PC to check out womens' asses?

I don't think women shouldn't be targets in games -- I just object to them being stereotyped as weak or easily frightened. One game that does this well is Thief II, where the opposing guards can be male or female, and they all have the same "bitch scripts" and ability to hack Garrett to pieces (you have to play the game to know what I mean). The women aren't eye-candy, they're scum in uniforms just like the guys. Also in that game, Garrett's strongest ally is Viktoria, and it's pretty clear she could beat the crap out of him if they went head-to-head.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:04 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure why it's un-PC to check out women's asses. You'll have to ask all the women who complain about guys who check out their bodies.


I can see your point that female villains should be as strong as the male villains.

OTOH, if a game featured a weak male villain, would that make it ok to also have a weak female villain? Must all villains be strong? I've known plenty of folks in real life who were pretty nasty, and they weren't always particularly strong.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:04 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
VT:

It's unacceptable because that would mean that you liked having sex with them, which could cause them to become pregnant, which could result in more men being made.

Thanks mediaboy, that's right. I do remember now, that was WAY better. Played the table-top arcade version. The ghosts eyes were bigger too.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:17 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just realized that Battle of the Planets WAS anime! Oops!


Hmm, maybe the Japanese are better at making cartoon characters that women find sexually attractive than the Americans are?


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 05:22 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's also why it is pathetic to look at video game characters as sexual objects. This is direct reinforcement of our Amazon principles. If women wanted cyborg babies, we would have already forced all the men to mate with Lara.

No, honestly I think it is on the same level as eyeing a german shepherd. It is not to be mated with. Period.


From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:23 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes they are... I thought the "Little Prince" was very cute.... but not sexually attractive.

You know that Sailor Moon is a show for teenagers in Japan. It has nudity and swearing in it.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:24 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is finding a video game character (or a cartoon character) sexually attractive any different from finding the subject of a painting (or a sculpture) sexually attractive? What is the difference?

If a woman finds Michaelangelo's David sexually attractive, is she pathetic? (small penis notwithstanding ;-) )

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 05:25 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I beg of anyone who is into cartoon characters to find a way to mate with one, other than assaulting some poor stooge in a costume at DisneyWorld.
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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:27 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoa Dawna.

These are HUMAN likenesses... it's entirely different from a German Shepard.

Do you not find some art sexually attractive? I know it's a bit different for us girls, we aren't as visual when it comes to our tittlation.

Men will always find the female form sexually attractive...I hope.

This is just a different medium. What about Jessica Rabbit? What about Heavy Metal?

-Trin


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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:29 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The whole idea of tittlation is the FANTASY of having sex with the subject. Of course the person isn't actually PLANNING on finding the cartoon somewhere and having sex with it.
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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:29 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Even then, what's WRONG with finding a dog sexually attractive, as long as you aren't actually following through on that attraction? I mean, you aren't hurting anybody by simply THINKING a dog is attractive...

Sara McLaughlin once said that she finds trees sexually attractive.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


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Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:30 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bad MB BAD!


That reminds me of an article in the NP Sports section last week. They were talking about dominator, the greyhound stud.... saying a "special dog handler steps-in and manually coaxes dominator to climax before capturing his lightning in a bottle."

So, what do you do for a living?.... wrong thread I know.

I laughed for 20 minutes.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Trinitty ]


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 05:33 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Now where did I leave my rolled up newspaper...
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:36 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It just bugs me when people judge others' worth based on what media or art they appreciate. These are aesthetic judgements, not moral ones, IMHO.

I read Anne Rice's "The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty", a book which features bondage, S&M and the sexual humiliation of the main character. Am I sick? Am I pathetic? My girlfriend also read the book, and she liked it more than I did. The primary audience for this book is women. Are they pathetic or sick?

If I like to look at completely artificial (not photographs) pictures of acts of bondage or sexual humiliation, is that more pathetic than reading about it? Why? Nobody was hurt or humiliated in the creation of that image (since it isn't a photograph).

And what if that image is animated (as in much anime, or in a video game), does it THEN become sick or pathetic? Why?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 30 July 2001 05:38 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have never fantasized about actually having sex with a cartoon character or video game mobile. However, I have been aroused by them if they have proportions that talk to my subconscious. Perhaps this speaks to the strength of visual cues in men (I can't speak to the phenomenon in gay men) when it comes to arousal. When I was a teenager and having 100 erections a day, even drawings would get me going.

I don't find Lara Croft the polygon sexually desirable, but I sure can't say the same about Angelina Jolie the actress! Seeing the Lara Croft figure in the game now evokes my memories of Ms. Jolie from the movie. I didn't play Tomb Raider for a long time because I knew my reaction would be a distracting reminder of what I was missing in reality.

There are, of course, many men (and perhaps women, I don't know) whose entire sex life is "virtual." God help them.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 05:43 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Virtual sex is a very safe form of sex. Surely you aren't arguing that women who use vibrators are "pathetic"!

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]

Could someone not argue that Ms. Jolie was "oppressed" by being featured in that movie (even though she did if of her own free will), in much the same way that porno models are "oppressed" (even though they do THAT of their own free will), albeit to a much smaller degree since she ain't naked.

Now, in the video game, just who is being "oppressed", since there is no real actress? Heck, one could argue that all the real actresses (and porno models) are being oppressed since this computer character is stealing their jobs! Computer characters don't join unions, after all...

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]

I thought about deleting this message, since it's getting off topic and diverts from my previous train of thought, but then I changed my mind. After all, we were discussing what constitutes "pathetic", not "oppression". Oh well...

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 30 July 2001 05:56 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I hear you Mediaboy.

Preprecocious, this study has me concerned. The very fact that "positive comments" were just an afterthought for your thread leads me to think that you are going into this with a negative attitude towards video games... and this could result in another hysterical report about the evils of everything fun, in the name of protecting women.

What video games have you played? For how long?

How old are you? Why did you pick this topic?

Please answer my questions.

Trin


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Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 06:04 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OH, Mickey. OH OH OH Mickey...what big ears you have...
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 06:11 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that a person who has the hots for Micky has, shall we say, unconventional tastes. But I hesitate to judge them as being "pathetic" or "sick". To each his/her own. At least no real human is being stalked in a case like that.


Oh, and in case you think nobody out there is ACTUALLY into that kind of porn, I double-dog-dare you to check out this website.
http://www.cartoon--porn.com/


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 06:18 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What's pathetic? I think perhaps a rejection of human interaction for 'virtual action' comes under that heading IMHO.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 06:20 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Women better throw out all their vibrators then, lest they be labeled "pathetic". I thought we were supposed to support the teaching of masturbation in sex ed class!


Also, how can we be so sure that an attraction to cartoon characters is a "choice"? Maybe there are people with a genetic predisposition towards cartoon characters?

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 30 July 2001 06:21 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some girls don't need tools...
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 30 July 2001 06:25 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, if that satisfies them that's great! I'm happy for them. Does it mean those that DO use tools are to be looked down upon?
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
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posted 31 July 2001 12:36 AM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Trin,

I feel as though I've missed out on all the fun...sorry for the late (?) reply.

To address some of the questions..
I'm female, 24 years of age and NO I have not been an extensive participant with videogames as-of-late (the past ten years, which are obviously significant ones).

You are right to note that I indeed have gone into investigating the premise of the project with some doubt as to the existence of "postive" portrayals of women within this genre.

I've recently begun to collaborate with an organization to attempt to gather data in this area and specifically the internet as well.

I'm VERY pleased that this thread is indeed of interest. Right now, I'm more or less observing and researching areas suggested by individuals I've interviewed....

To provide all of you with the focus of my research, I would have to state that videogames which are current and popular NOW, would be more beneficial...

The research would ideally reflect upon sexist, racist, classist etc. imaging in the videogames, wherein awareness campaigns and educational material would undoubtedly be developed....

Please keep discussing....I greatly appreciate all of this!


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Jared
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posted 31 July 2001 02:04 AM      Profile for Jared     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*SWITCHING GEARS A SMIDGE*

I don't see why Lara Croft is such a bona-fide heroine. Sure she kicks ass, but would anybody give a damn if she didn't have Hindenburg-esque boobs? It's like Madonna being considered a paragon of feminism. She just got where she is not by her cookie-cutter music, but rather by showing her body. Somehow the mainstream press has adopted her as an honorary riot grrl. Um, what tha fuck...


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Debra
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posted 31 July 2001 10:32 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just a note on the cartoon porn. Most of these images are strongly identifierd with by very young girls. To turn it into porn seems to me to be catering to pedophiles. But hey I guess we can't be stopping pedophiles from having their fun just like the mysoginists and anybody else who sees fit to hurt and scar other people for their own pleasure.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 10:37 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lots of women, including feminists, really like Madonna and her music. We must be careful not to confuse aesthetic judgements (I don't like that music) with moral ones (that music is "evil").

Same goes for cartoon porn. If both a pedophile and a non-pedophile enjoy the same media art, does it make that media art "evil"?


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skdadl
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posted 31 July 2001 10:41 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
M'boy, a more abstract and general question:

quote:
aesthetic judgements (I don't like that music)

Do you think that all aesthetic judgements are subjective? Do you think that all art is subjective -- ie, that art gives rise to no generalizable standards or measures?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 10:47 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do tend to lean that way, yes. If I create a piece of art and ONE person thinks the art has merit, I would consider that a "good" piece of art.

If that person were to pay me several hundred thousand dollars for that piece of art, so much the better!

The only standard I personally have for "bad" or "evil" is if someone has been victimized in the creation of the work, as in the recent photos and video of the cat being skinned alive. That ain't cool.

Of course, defining the word "victimized" can get pretty grey.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 31 July 2001 11:01 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Earthmother:

A lot of cartoon porn is animee. There are stores in Japan where men can by hundreds of pictures of school-girls lifting their skirts, showing their panties. They can also purchase "pre-worn" panties and pubic hair. This is a really big issue, and maybe it deserves it's own thread... but this one is about the evils of popular video games.

PPC:

Are you looking at only consol games, or computer games too? Games that have been released in the past, what, 2 years?

quote:

The research would ideally reflect upon sexist, racist, classist etc. imaging in the videogames, wherein awareness campaigns and educational material would undoubtedly be developed....


Oh, that's splendid. What type of "educational" campaigns? What will people be educated about?

There is not enough "sexist, racist, classist,etc" in video games to warrant a new-think program. Maybe you should focus on womens magazines and mags geared for girls... Those are far more offensive and destructive.

I've played/watched countless video games, on a tonne of systems and haven't had a political problem with them. I suggest that you start looking at the wide array of games yourself.

Are you going to focus on the very few "problem" games and ignore all of the ones that are fine? What games have you played that you find problematic. I need to know this to see if I can find your page.

Why are you looking for this crap? The VAST majority of games I've seen are perfectly fine. Must everything be regulated and sanitized?

What games have you seen that offended you?

Verbatim: I know what you mean about Croft... I just look at the boobs thing as an "extra". Guys would still play it if she had regular-sized breasts, but she's supposed to be a fantasy character.... and plenty of 15 yearold boys may appreciate her ampleness.

It is shallow, but, I don't care. If they want to draw her that way, and the guys that play it oggle a bit, so-be-it.

-Trin


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 31 July 2001 11:53 AM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mediaboy wrote:

"The only standard I personally have for "bad" or "evil" is if someone has been victimized in the creation of the work, as in the recent photos and video of the cat being skinned alive. That ain't cool.

Of course, defining the word "victimized" can get pretty grey."

So M-boy, just asking, would it be okay to make a music video using footage from the holocaust set to industrial tunes? The band and the company making the video didn't actually do the filming or the torture. Is this okay with you? Let's define this grey region a little.

PPC - I'm sure this will relate back at some point, regarding the dividing line between art and exploitation.


From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 12:00 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd personally have no problem with that, no. Holocaust footage is used all the time by educators and documentary filmmakers. I don't see why one group should be prohibited from using said footage while another is allowed to use it.

Of course, folks are free to complain about this sort of footage. I wouldn't be one of them though.

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dawna Matrix
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posted 31 July 2001 12:06 PM      Profile for Dawna Matrix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm with you on that, but holocaust survivors and family would be quick to state that because it is not educational and is for-profit, that it is exploiting the pain of those who were there. You can bet you're bottom dollar, Annie, that there would be quite a ruckus that would speak out against it.
From: the stage on cloud 9 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 12:09 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No doubt, and I'd support their right to raise a ruckus (say that 10 times fast!). But I wouldn't agree with it.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 31 July 2001 12:46 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ahh gaming. I love it! I play Quake3. Lots.
All the rest is greasy kid stuff. Although stratagy games are a nice deversion once in a while. Most people, as we can see here, who have a limited understanding of the game can find it very offensive. But hey some people don't like some types of music either.
That's life. Once you move through the entry level of gaming (playing against the computer) you begin to look for other aspects of it. This will usually lead you to setting up a game with bots and harder skill levels. Inturn this leads to multiplayer gaming usually over the net. Then you move on to lan gaming. Where a few friends get together as I do, and do battle for the ultimate bragging rights. Here is where you find the true joy in video gaming. At this point player models, (chicks, guys, fat or slim, big or little sometimes not even humanoid) makes no difference. Breast size means nothing. All that matters is making the little figure that is you on screen smoother, faster, tougher, and more deadly than anyone else in the room. The goal is to kill the other guy first and if your skills are up there, with the most style. Weapon selection, location and tacticle manouvers mean everything. You hunt people and are hunted by them. There is no negotiation and the rule is killem' first, killem' fast and gather the best weapons and armour before your opponents can. So what's so fun about that you ask? When you are being attacked on all sides by those who will capitalize on the smallest mistake, and making moves that are immposible seem effortless while you lay them out and take their weapons. Making a 500 yard shot on a moving target that is shooting at you while falling 60 feet. Or killing off 7 guys all shooting rockets at you only to be KOed by a punch in the chops and hearing the dreaded "Humiliation" called out across the network for all to hear. And laughing your ass of with everybody when it happens. The aspects of sexism, violence, and sterotyping are limited to the novice and uninformed of the game. After all, when you exit, no one is dead. It's just a game. Those who have a problem distingushing between the two, have problems in the first place.

From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 31 July 2001 01:03 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Swilly,

I haven't played Quake3... is that similar to the option on 007 Golden Eye where you can track and kill eachother? It's a perspective view where all you see of your character is the hand or muzzle of the weapon?

Are there wierd options on it?

I remember with Turok you could make the blood green (no Spock, my beloved SPOCK!) I guess to make it less offensive and you could select the "disco" option... I think it caused the enemy to start dancing and coloured lights to come-on when you shoot them...

-Trin


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Slick Willy
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posted 31 July 2001 01:26 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Are there wierd options on it?

Quake3 is open source which means that anyong can download the source code and alter many things within the game. These are called mods and you can change most everything from the type of level(build your own) to weapons, power ups, sounds, lights, I could go on listing things but I think you get the idea.
There are also "skins" that you can download or make your own skin with a graphic editor so you can suit your own tastes.

Here is a link to IDSoftwares recommended site. You can have a look around at your own pace and get an idea of what Quake3 is about.
There is a free demo too if your so inclined.
There are also plenty of better sites on the net for further investigation.

Quake3


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 July 2001 02:04 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
M-Boy: Let's say your parents are mauled to death by a pack of Pit Bulls on Yonge St. It's filmed by a tourist with a portacam, and that tourist sells the footage to a video company, who in turn uses it as the central theme for a new Eminem song: "They Got What They Deserved."

How is this different from using Holocaust footage? It's different because now it's not abstract anymore.

(Law school turns life into one big hypothetical argument...)


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 02:06 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trin, you've reminded me of one of my favourite games -- Carmageddon. Tis a road-racing game where you get more points for running over pedestrians than for actually winning the race. When you got a really good hit on a pedestrian, they'd fly apart with lots of lovely blood. The screams of the innocent and the "splat" sound that came out of the speakers when you crushed them against a building was really quite groovy! In some levels you could drive onto a football field and run down football players, or go onto a farmer's field and run down cows. You could also download celebrity pedestrians from the company's website. Take that Bill Gates! Squish!

Why did Trin's post remind me of this game, you might be wondering?

In Britain, they decided this game was too violent. In order to get the game approved, the creators had to change the pedestrians to zombies, and the blood had to be changed to green. It's ok to squish virtual zombies with extreme prejudice, apparently, but virtual pedestrians is a no-no.

The same company published "Postal", a FPS where you took the role of a disgruntled postal worker. Nuff said.


[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]

Verbatim: I have no problem with the "morality" of showing someone being mauled by a pack of pit-bulls, per se. I wouldn't make the "Faces of Death" videos illegal, for example.

However, and this is really a whole other discussion, who owns the rights to the image of my parents?

I'd be sympathetic to the argument that I (being the executor of my parents' estate) should be able to approve or restrict the use of their image in for-profit products.

Subsequently, if someone were to make a video which included footage of a dead body from a Nazi death camp, and that body was recognizable, I'd be sympathetic to the argument that the family of that person should be able to block the distribution of that video.

I tend to believe that one's own likeness is intellectual property, and nobody should be able to profit from the distribution of that likeness without one's consent.

I've always been uncomfortable with news agencies being able to make money off news footage of average folks (or people accused of committing crimes, or celebrities, or politicians, etc.), without having to pay a royalty for using their image.

So, to answer your question, if I was getting a cut of the profits from this Eminem video which featured my parents being mauled my pit bulls, I probably would allow it. At that point, my sisters would probably take me out behind the barn and beat me with a manure-caked stick.

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 31 July 2001 02:08 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
:Verbatim::
quote:

(Law school turns life into one big hypothetical argument...)


Does that mean computer science classes turn life into one big virtual argument?

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Mandos ]


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Trinitty
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posted 31 July 2001 03:01 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
M'boy, YES! thanks for reminding me about the game... I had forgotten about it aswell.

Big sisters or little sisters?

Mine are younger, but they're triplets, so they gang-up and tag-team me.

They ALL play video games btw.


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 04:23 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Big sisters. The biggest (33 years old) is a high school teacher, and VERY uptight when it comes to issues about the 'evil' media warping the minds of the youth.

She also thinks video games turn one's brain to mush.


I'm the youngest, and the only boy, even within our extended family. Talk about being marginalized! My family is a matriarchy, since both my granddads died in WWII. Gramma and my Great Aunt ran the show.

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 31 July 2001 04:39 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm looking forward to liquifing the grey matter tonight. I need to finish the "Maze Marathon" on my Pacman game. I think there's 50 screens of it!

I'm trying to think of some "racist, sexist, classist, etc..." video games...

Anyone remember some recent ones by name?


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 July 2001 04:43 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MBoy -- Well, far be it from me to stand in your way to profiting from your parents' horrible, painful death. However, as your parents' executor, you have absolutely no de facto claim to any money made from an image in the public domain (such as those of your parents's bodies being rended by slavering animals). However, you might get a judge to agree (assuming the judge could hold his or her nose long enough to listen to the arguments).

I guess what I'm saying is that economic efficiency demands the elimination of sentimental fripperies like a family's right to block distribution of an image when it could generate wealth. As you clearly state, there is profit to be had from misfortune.


From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 04:49 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sexist: The only one that really comes to mind it the Leisure Suit Larry series. But Larry was always an idiot, so it's hard to say how truly sexist they were.

Racist: Is it racist to kill orcs in large numbers, just for being orcs? Not many games feature black characters, other than football and basketball games. That in itself can be considered racist.

Classist: Monopoly. Redneck Rampage.


I don't think you could make money off a truly vile sexist/racist game. The development and distribution costs are too high. I don't think you'd be able to sell enough units to turn a profit. However, there might be shareware games available for download off the internet that are more extreme in their political incorrectness.

Also, XXX rated video stores sell games. I've never played any of them though, and I suspect that the market for that kind of game is pretty small.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 July 2001 04:55 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, Redneck Rampage never ceases to amaze me. I guess many people don't realize that in certain circles, Redneck is as derogatory a term as you can have.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 04:56 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
VT: I would agree with a family that wanted to block the distribution of a video like that, since I'd feel the ownership of their parents' image and likeness should belong to the family, unless THEY decide to put it in the public domain.

Like, if I video tape people on the street, what right do I have to put their image on the internet, or sell their image to a news outlet? You can't put a corporate logo in a movie without the permission of its owner, so why could you use an individual's image and likeness?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 July 2001 04:57 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Because corporations have paid big bucks to get legal protection legislated for their preferential use.
From: The People's Republic of Cook Street | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 31 July 2001 05:28 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No M'Boy, it's okay to kill orcs just because they're orcs. Let's face it... they are ORCS!

You can add big stinky trolls to that list too.

I think the point of Leisure Suit Larry is that it's sexist. That's the whole premise of the game. Played it in Grade 5 .

Hey, what about the Bernardo Tapes, does that apply to your debate?


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Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 31 July 2001 05:53 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, the Bernardo Tapes are a good example. I'd take the position that the voices of the girls are the intellectual property of the families, and they should have final say on what happens to them.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
verbatim
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posted 31 July 2001 06:08 PM      Profile for verbatim   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree, but good luck on getting that interpretation out of the legislation.
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Athena Dreaming
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posted 01 August 2001 08:33 PM      Profile for Athena Dreaming   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
MB:

quote:
What would a male video-game character, designed for the sexual titillation of women, look like?

Well, besides stunningly handsome, how does a 12-inch permanently erect dick sound to you? I can see that adding plenty in terms of enjoyment to the game for teenaged girls and it would be about par in terms of plausibility with Croft's tits.

PLEASE. Beautiful women with huge boobs in scanty body armour carrying a weapon is NOT NEW. It's not revolutionary. It's not meant for the empowerment of women. Talk about stating the obvious (like "the alphabet starts with "a"). It's the oldest combination in the book, sex and violence, and the sex is meant for .... who?

Is it really so fucking hard to see why games directed at boys that show women in a predatory light could be, you know, bad for girls? It's like a "How to Be A Misogynist" training manual. "Lesson 1: Girls scream better. Only about one girl can kick ass for every ten boys, so they're safe targets. And most importantly, no matter the weapon used, the armour of a well-endowed woman must only cover her genitals. Who cares if someone can stab her through the guts? It's her tits we care about."

Show me a male character of ANY medium wading into battle wearing a bronze thong struggling to cover his mammoth assets.

And the old "it's just fantasy" blame-the-victim crapola. "So what if magazines and pop TV are directly correllated with eating disorders in adolescent girls? It's their fault! Let's get angry at the ones who are getting hurt, not the ones doing the hurting!" Bears a striking resemblance to people who get angry at an abused woman for staying and not the asshole who beats her.

So sad. Here I thought Babble was intended for people, you know, on the LEFT. Who would presumably not only be feminist but have some marginal understanding of feminist issues. I guess sexism is still cool on both sides of the political spectrum.

Let's all have a moment of silence while the musician plays Taps for another bbs that turned into a mainstream centrist Playground and Petting Zoo. "Sure, I'm all for progressive social movements as long as nothing, you know, changes."

I"m not planning on coming back here. (I know, I know, you're crushed.) I've tried to contact most of the people I don't want to lose touch with, but I'm sure I've missed one or two so if anyone wants to talk, my inbox is always open.


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Debra
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posted 01 August 2001 11:03 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I will miss you Athena. And as long as sexism is seen to be alright then hey when exactly is dick boy going to show up in video?
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 02 August 2001 10:35 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ooh, please sign me up for an advanced release!

As a woman the sight of a huge, erect penis really gets my motor running and enhances my enjoyment of the video game, depite the fact I don't rely on primarily visual stimulation to get titilated, but hey - I'm a Woman, no different than a Man except for the syllables.

Man, I think Tifa is going to get a little uncomfortable trying to carry-on a conversation with Cloud about how to defeat Sepheroth when Cloud has this huge tent pitched.

I can see it all now, line-ups of preteen girls lining-up to buy the latest version of "The Adventures of Justin Timberlake... with a WOODY!"

Oh well. Who cares if it makes no sense, and is not enjoyable for anyone involved. As long as it's uniform it must be right.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 August 2001 10:42 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Athena Dreaming: Conan The Barbarian. Wears next to nothing. Huge muscles. Relatively little popularity among women.

Tarzan. Wears a wittle loincloth.

Are James Bond games particularly popular with women? I doubt it. He's fabulously handsome.


Trying to define who gets to call themselves "left" and who doesn't? Gotta love labels.

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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posted 02 August 2001 10:51 AM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Media boy I believe the point is she would love to have a battle of wits but she is tired of dealing with the unarmed.
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skdadl
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posted 02 August 2001 11:06 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Touche, earthmum.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 02 August 2001 11:11 AM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How in anyway was Mediaboy "unarmed" in what he said?

I don't find her witty in the least. Just angry. And perhaps justifiably so, but, I highly doubt her anger is a result of the portrayal of women in video games.

Mediaboy had valid points.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 August 2001 11:16 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Vituperative obfuscation. Sigh...
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 August 2001 11:19 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Athena has discovered, through some extensive experience, that feminism is, surprisingly to some of us, a hot-button issue on Babble. Perhaps we should not have been surprised; and for some of us it is still interesting to figure out how this is working and why (it was definitely news to me, but then I've been famously out of touch). But I can understand why Athena would finally say "E-nough!"
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 02 August 2001 11:27 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
skdadl, I sent a personal response to Athena Dreaming, but there's one point that I think is worth mentioning here in response to your question. I wrote to her:
quote:

I see it as a kind of split in the left that has been bubbling under the surface for a long time now. One side views conservative social restrictions/puritanism as the problem ("whatever turns you on"), and the other side feels that inhibitions are required to have an effect on other aspects of people's behaviour ("what turns you on may harm someone else"). Mediaboy falls on the former side, while you seem to fall on the latter.

"Feminism" is a hot-button issue because internally it still has many nuances and heated debates. Does anyone here read the moderated USENET group, soc.feminism? This is a newsgroup populated by self-described feminists where the posts are moderated to screen out too much anti-feminist content, but I see this very discussion repeated regularly by the participants (on Lara Croft!) in the same way as here. And the divisions I outlined in my mail to her operate quite obviously.

If Athena Dreaming finds this frustrating, I don't think she'll find any general-feminist bulletin board any less frustrating. Because this issue is not a fait accompli even within "feminism".


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 August 2001 11:56 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Couldn't the fact that Lara Croft wears skimpy clothes make her her even MORE of a kick-ass action hero. After all, only a wimp would need to wear armour. She can save the Universe WITHOUT armour!!! That takes guts...
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 August 2001 12:01 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Excellently well put, Mandos, for the time being and omitting some particular anecdotal pain.

As one of the original whatever-turns-you-onners , I am still surprised that people are not prepared to be told that what turns them on causes reactions in others. I can't see that asking someone else to consider impact on others is puritanical if it doesn't come with threats of legal suppression. From me it certainly doesn't, and I don't remember any such from Athena, either.

I also find absolute relativism (oxymoron?) curious, but that's a separate topic.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 August 2001 12:06 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
All media has an impact, of course. I would never deny that. Otherwise, why would companies spend so much on advertising?

People are, of course, free to debate the impact of various media. If they want to use a puritanical tone in their arguments, or resort to insults and obfuscation, that's their prerogative.

My argument is merely that the degree and manner of that impact is very complex, and incredibly difficult to label. Two people look at the same message and one sees empowerment while the other sees oppression. Whose world-view is definitive?

[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 August 2001 12:09 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sometimes they just want to shake hands and make peace, eh? Or kiss and make up?
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Trinitty
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posted 02 August 2001 03:00 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No kissing skdadl
From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 02 August 2001 04:39 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are y'all having fun, or is this thread too long?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 02 August 2001 04:51 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think preprecocious is going to come back to see the reactions to her questions.

I think it's a rather interesting subject.


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 August 2001 04:53 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think it's winding down. Too many tangents. I think it could be shut down, and if people have new things to argue they can start a new thread. I can't think of anything I could add to the discussion.
From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zeratul
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posted 03 August 2001 01:06 AM      Profile for Zeratul     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know what you are talking about Mediaboy the pedestrains are zombies in every version of Carmageddon, because you are playing to get off Earth after a nuclear holocaust. And everyone who didn't get into a habitaion dome in time was instantly turned into a nuclear zombie.
Also the portrayal of women in video games is not one way or another there are games where they ARE weak and defenceless and there are others where the MEN are defenceless. I also want to say that games directed towards girls/women have better play quality (puzzels, graphics, believibility) than games like DOOM with the exception of Quake. And I personally would play Tomb Raider even if Lara didn't look like Pamala Anderson.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Zeratul ]


From: Right behind you, with a big knife | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
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posted 03 August 2001 02:37 AM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
allright, lots of stuff I'd like to address, if I don't get around to everything....forgive me......

first, trin your questions regarding the possible educational material or campaigns which may insue after or during the research, well a lot of it still is being developed and prodded, and it definately relates to what we exactly discover, as well as the popular lore associated (not much of an answer I know)...

My string of research may solely be focusing upon imagery in video games, but there is a LOT of work going on relating to magazines, television, movies, advertisements etc. the internet and videogames are areas of focus because it's such an unchartered area, and many are unsure of how to approach negative imagery in such open territory...

am I going to ignore the many games which are okay and focus on the few which aren't?...well, this is all conjecture at the moment but it really depends on the format by which the research will appear..if it's a public awareness campaign, who knows...a research report may be more comprehensive....I can't really say....but I hope I've kind of/somewhat attempted to address things...

slick willy? well, I suppose that's always the argument-that "the apsects of sex, violence, and stereotypes are limited to the novice and uniformed of the game"...but we cannot escape the ingrained notions of women in whatever portrayal exists...
as a creative individual, a person who revels in freedom of speech (and such), I do understand that many will not fully understand the context by which a game is created, and that it may be a work of art or an individual utilizing their freedom of expression...I realize that those of us who are not seasoned video-gamers(?) will not fully appreciate the deftness of movement and the intricacies of fight...but again, it's a medium whereby LOads of individuals either ignore or subtly take-in the hidden messages or innuendo in these sources of endless entertainment and intrigue...I appreciate that YOU are not affected by these images, or even consider them...but many do, and we're still processing.....

and with mediaboy's comment regarding the featuring of black persons in mainly football and basketball games...well those are examples of stereotypes, and again it's so grey...either this can be positive depending on the game including the fact that there is inclusion, or it can be entirely stereotypical to imply that black individuals (men mostly) can only succeed in athletics...

can anyone think of images whereby steretypes of women are perpetuated? Like the asian women seductress/martial arts expert....or the amazon black woman who lusts for sex....or the wholesome white women?

I'm very aware of how difficult it is to negotiate everyone's idea of right/wrong/maybe/who gives a damn, and it's really nice to have a barometer?(whatever), a measure of sorts to determine what people are thinking about these issues, or even if they aren't...

athena dreaming? if you see this, or hear about this...feminism: "the fight", is always disheartening because it's difficult to manage such discussions especially when it's very close to home, but I hope discouragement...due to backlash or dis-satisfaction of discussion-doesn't entirely lead you away from individuals who don't share views exactly-or even in the ball park of...Your timing and words on this thread are greatly appreciated by me...

so if the thread is dead...then all's cool...I'll be sure to keep those (who're interested) abreast , of what's happening with the project-there is the possibility of a "focus group" regarding the topic, so I'll let you all know.......and if this stirs some more discussion..........great......


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 03 August 2001 10:03 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Where did we get the idea that video games are supposed to be enriching? I don't think the developers of Tomb Raider created the game to provide a possitive role model for young women. They took the same scenario and gave it a slight twist in order to make a who heap of money. And so it did. Why get so upset about something that was never intended to do what you want it to? You pick your role models, they don't pick you.
From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 03 August 2001 10:17 AM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The race of women characters isn't always easy to determine. Many (most?) new games are designed in an Anime style, and the race of the character is pretty ambiguous.

Black female characters, AFAIK, are almost non-existant.

The helpless princess is almost always white, it seems. But white female characters aren't always helpless. And sometimes the helpless princess grows herself a backbone, such as Princess Toadstool.

Personally, I don't think the anecdotal stories of a bunch of people on a website would really be very useful. If you really want to do a good analysis, you're gonna have to go down to Blockbuster, rent EVERY Playstation game they have, and do a content analysis for yourself.

Zeratul: In my copy of Carmageddon, they most certainly are NOT zombies.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zeratul
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posted 03 August 2001 12:26 PM      Profile for Zeratul     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mediaboy your version MUST be pirated because in every version Nintendo released they are zombies. Even in the prototype they were zombies. I know this because it was reviewed on "Gamerz"

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Zeratul ]


From: Right behind you, with a big knife | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 03 August 2001 12:29 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well there's your answer right there! The Nintendo version is the edited version. As IF Nintendo would put out a game with such extreme violence as the unedited Carmageddon. They're a family company, don't you know. The PC and Mac versions of the original game (and Carmageddon II) are both bloody, bloody, bloody. No zombies.
http://www.carmageddon.com/

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Kneel before MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 03 August 2001 12:53 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Preprecocious,

I would concur with Mediaboy on this. I'm sure you could write-off the research expense of renting all of the Playstion and Nin 64 games, and make notes on all of them... that would be the best, most objective way to conduct your research.

Blacks in videogames? There's a black man in Final Fantasy 7 and 8. They aren't anywhere near a piece of sports equipment. In FF7 he has a main role, and a kick-ass gun-hand. Mediaboy has a strong point in saying that many of the characters are anime, therefore, you don't really consider their race.

Um, about the sports games. Most of the sports games out now are directly taken from the official league of the game... money to be made ya know? I haven't seen a generic sports game in YEARS. Not since Super Nintentdo.

Example: the Basketball games are sanctioned by the NBA, and include the real names, stats, etc of the players... even the stars movments and signature plays are recorded and included in the games. Most of the NBA is black. Therefore, most of the characters in the NBA games are black.

The NHL games are the same. Most of the NHL hockey players are white, so, that is accuratly portrayed in the video game.

Know what I mean?

Trin


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
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posted 03 August 2001 03:55 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I definately realize that more conclusive research is necessary, this was more or less an attempt to gauge the sentiments which may or may not be prevalent...That's all...
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 03 August 2001 03:58 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Groovy.

I think the most politically incorrect games would tend to be shareware that you download offa the net.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 03 August 2001 04:48 PM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
LOads of individuals either ignore or subtly take-in the hidden messages or innuendo in these sources of endless entertainment and intrigue

I agree, no question there. But so what? Name something that someone can't find innuendo and so called hidden messages.

For ages there were people convinced that Pink Floyd's Darkside Of The Moon was writen to and about the Wizard Of Oz. Web sites have detailed files about where to sync the two up and what means what. Roger Waters (one of the people who wrote DSOTM, officially stated that DSOTM has nothing to do what so ever with the movie the Wizard Of Oz. Yet people believe what they want to believe.

We see and hear everything. We filter out what is irrelevant to us and retain what is of importance.


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
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posted 03 August 2001 07:30 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sorry s/will, but I don't think you can link the negative portrayal of women with your example...it's NOT the same...I don't want to alienate people here...but,

"We see and hear everything. We filter out what is irrelevant to us and retain what is of importance"

you're simply speaking of processes we perform conciously...who knows the ramifications of continually being subjected to whatever images abound...what does this all do to us intrinsically?

anyhow, these questions really don't have answers...and really when you state "so what?"

well I suppose that's exactly the question...so what if it perpetuates violence against women, or the sexual objectification of....or continuing stream of stereotypes and marginalization...who really cares?? well, despite how hazy this area is...it doesn't mean that attempts should not be made to investigate and research/learn/discuss the issues, that aren't apparent to YOU, but definately are/affecting ME.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: preprecocious ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Slick Willy
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posted 04 August 2001 10:38 AM      Profile for Slick Willy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
so what if it perpetuates violence against women, or the sexual objectification of....or continuing stream of stereotypes and marginalization.

Just my opinion mind,
but what do you have to back this up? I feel that those who have a propensity towards violence had it long before they were able to lay their hands on video games. To the point that they nolonger can distinguish the difference between real and imaginary. If your point is that this idea needs to be studied then I am behind you all the way. If you feel that it should be taken away just incase, then expect to see me on the battle lines in opposition. Video games, like tv, or media, or books or anything else really, are not intended for everyone. So we put warning labels on them. In this way parents can explain what is questionable or restrict what is innapropriate. A failure on the part of parents does not equate into reason for censorship. My question is when we find that outside stimulus directly produces unwated behavior, where do we stop the restrictions?


From: Hog Heaven | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 04 August 2001 02:46 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just finished reading A Clockwork Orange, and I'm about to start reading Justine, by the Marquis De Sade. After reading Justine, will I suddenly become a rapist and an atheist?

Time will tell, I suppose...


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 August 2001 02:57 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, mediaboy, you will either quit before you're 100 pages in, or you will die of boredom.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
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posted 04 August 2001 03:20 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Allright, I suppose I'm not expressing myself clearly enough...

I expressly understand the dilemma or issue one has in either researching an area whereby one's discoveries may give vice to those who'll cry out for censorship measures, but I'm not going to refrain from investigating and engaging in discourse merely because this is a possibility...So, I agree with you S/Wil, (the part about pursuing research and such), but I definately believe that having constant /or even not so contant images will lead to either an acceptance or a desensitization of whatever issue-either violence/sexism/racism..whatever.

We don't necessarily need a large-scale million dollar study to explain to us how images affect and distort perceptions.
We can see how this occurs in our own lives...
No, I don't think reading Justine by the Marquis will lead to mediaboy raping the hired help...but it may give you differing ideas about sexuality and how this plays out in your own life...well who's to know...(I'm not AT all stating this is either "good" or "bad", but that it does affect us, and it'd be extremely interesting to see how it does)

I really think we're all somewhat on the same page here....aren't we?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 04 August 2001 04:27 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
After the Columbine(sp?) shootings a high ranking officer from the army said that the game those boys were 'addicted' to was a more effective way of desensitizing people to taking another human beings life than the training the army currently uses. It is also a very effective devise for teaching marksmanship. They aimed for the heads of all their victims and most were killed with a single shot. No effect there.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 04 August 2001 10:42 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Remember Columbine" a slogan used in much the same way that "Remember Munich" was used by the US to justify the Gulf War and "Remember Seattle" is used by governments to justify turning cities into fortresses.

I'd like to think we'd be beyond such simplistic, knee-jerk judgements.

I think there should be an equivalent to Godwin's Law that applies to Columbine.


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Debra
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 117

posted 04 August 2001 10:47 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well there you go focus on Columbine and not on my real point which was what the officer said. Wouldn't want to confuse you with the facts.
From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1018

posted 05 August 2001 03:34 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Columbine came up in a meeting I had...apparently there was a video game online wherein one can go about and shoot columbine highschool students (obviously this is inappropriate, in lieu of what happened....) but when you place the shooting in some annonymous jungle and have soldiers or aliens killed instead, well...we all say that's allright, or no harm was intended....

I think due to the overwhelming protest to the game, it was taken offline...(a young male claimed that it was "just fun" for him and his friends)


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 554

posted 05 August 2001 08:19 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(obviously this is inappropriate, in lieu of what happened....)

Obviously? Why is that so obvious?


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1018

posted 07 August 2001 12:44 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well I suppose it's inappropriate to me...I mean...if someone I cared about was murdered and someone creates a videogame about it...I would find it inconsiderate...but that's just me...
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sleepstalker
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1186

posted 10 August 2001 10:44 PM      Profile for Sleepstalker     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Damn! I missed out on this one , I for one purchased and played a PC game called FAKK 2 which features an incredibly endowed female who runs around in all sorts of clothing including thong bikinis! I even found sites on the internet where you could download patches to make her completely naked! I just couldn't be bothered with that because the female form is to be appreciated with a little left to the imagination in my humble opinion.
After all who REALLY gives a rat's ass if the Main character or the victim is male or female , just as long as the game is fun and satisfying. Of course to be politically correct you should make the game able to swap gendre for all characters! Unfortunately that would involve extra coding by the Game developers and reflect it in the final cost of the Game.
Final word is , if ya don't like porn don't rent it , if ya don't like gossip don't buy tabloids , If ya don't like stereotyping don't look at games that are geared to sell to teenage boyz...Nuff said...Da Sleepster....

From: Kelowna B.C. | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
preprecocious
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1018

posted 11 August 2001 11:02 PM      Profile for preprecocious        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hey Arkham, thanks for the link...I've been checking it out and it'll prove really helpful.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
kuri
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4202

posted 21 June 2005 04:46 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is this perhaps the most sexist commercial of all time? Hard to say, but it certainly annoys me. It's not the nudity, but the manner in which it's achieved.

Oh yeah, and if my description wasn't enough of a clue, this link is not work safe.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7050

posted 21 June 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
4 year bump...
OPA!

Wow, that commercial is absolutely terrible. It's sexist and it again fails to appeal to female gamers. Who are the largest growing demographic. So sad.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged

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