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Author Topic: Copyright/Fortunate Son.
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 24 October 2002 10:37 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A while back, a couple of us commented on the jeans commercial that used CCR's "Fortunate Son".

Lest anyone think John Fogarty "sold out", I just found out that Fogarty doesn't own the rights to any of his old CCR songs, having lost a law suit against his old record label.

Not only that, the company recently sued Fogarty, claiming his "Old Man Down the Road" was just a rehash of "Run Through the Jungle", and as such, they claimed they should be entitled to all the royalties for that song. I don't think the suit was successful.

Now, with the legalized theft of copyright from artists being the name of the game in the music industry, why should the music industry be surprised when the listening public goes on line, or gets cd burners to steal from them? The fact they complain is pure chutzpah.

Can you steal from a thief?


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1873

posted 24 October 2002 10:54 PM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Now, with the legalized theft of copyright from artists being the name of the game in the music industry, why should the music industry be surprised when the listening public goes on line, or gets cd burners to steal from them? The fact they complain is pure chutzpah
Now this is an issue that I could seriously bore everyone with. My abbreviated tirade - the greedy soulesscorporate scum of music industry are responsible for a variety of social ills, the least of which is thieving music rights from artists.

Yes, you can steal from thieves, and it really really pisses them off. I HATE MusInc.


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ed Weatherbee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2844

posted 25 October 2002 01:21 AM      Profile for Ed Weatherbee        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think that the problem with copyright was why Fogarty wouldn't play his CCR songs in concert for many years. He also penned "Zantz can't Dance" about his problems with Fantasy Records president Saul Zaentz for "Centerfold.". That song got pulled pretty quick as I remember.
From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
TommyPaineatWork
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Babbler # 2956

posted 25 October 2002 01:33 AM      Profile for TommyPaineatWork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Another aspect of "copyright" in music is just how often we should be required to pay it.

Now, with CCR for example, I payed copyright back in about 1969 when I bought "Cosmos Factory". It was a one time deal, and there was no limit on how many times I could play "Up Around the Bend" before I had to pay copyright again. If I had taken car of the album, and not wieghted down the sytlus with a quarter, perhaps I'd still have it in listening condition.

Just because technology changed-- and the evidence more than suggests that the technology change was a deliberate construct of the record industry, and not the consumer-- Should I really have to pay for copyright again? I think I paid back in 1969, and the music industry trying to stop me from using "Napster" or "Kaaza" to download stuff I've already bought is egregiously unreasonable.


From: London | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 25 October 2002 03:44 PM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A question, TommyPaineatWork:

If your car breaks down, beyond repair, should you be allowed to go back to the dealer and drive off in a new replacement? After all, you had already paid for the car, way back when you purchased it ... why should you be required to pay again?


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
rici
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Babbler # 2710

posted 25 October 2002 04:10 PM      Profile for rici     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
TommyPaine is not asking if he should have to pay to replace the media; he is asking if he should have to pay for the copyright again.

Should he not be able to take his worn-out LP back in and buy a new CD of the same music for the retail price minus the royalties?

One of the things I find annoying about the application of copyright to computer programs is that in many cases I cannot replace my computer without buying the same software over again. Or rather, I would find it annoying if I did that -- I have long ago given up on buying software (personally) from companies which impose such policies.


From: Lima, Perú | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 26 October 2002 08:23 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If the manufacturing world guarded patents as zealously as the music industry, then recycling would be impossible.

I'm not a cheap bastard.....well, maybe a bit.

But the thing is, I want my money to go to the person who is bringing me a little ray of sunshine. Some of that, yes, goes to the physical industry that runs a studio, or melts the plastic and burns the digitized sound onto it.

But mostly, it should go to the artist-- particularly when the overhead and a nice profit has been made by the others.

The beef against theft of copyright by consumers is that if copyright isn't respected, artists won't produce art anymore.

It's an argument I have trouble buying into, because the artists don't seem to stop making art when it's the music industry executives are stealing thier copyright.

Seems the artists should be on the side of the consumer here, at least until the middle men get put out of the game.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rebecca West
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posted 26 October 2002 08:59 AM      Profile for Rebecca West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And when they own your shit, they decide how it gets marketed and distributed. Some guy who makes car commercials hires some models and makes a video that has nothing to do with you, your art or even your music. Someone puts together a marketing package, ships it off to label reps to shop it around to program directors for corporate radio. After said label rep sucks said PD's dick, maybe he plays your disk, maybe he doesn't. 2% of recorded music gets play on mainstream radio.

None of this has anythng to do with artistic merit of the product. It has everything to do with the perceived revenue-generation capability of the product.

Now, if you're lucky, you make an indie release and you get the chick who does the overnight at the local college station to give it some airplay cause she's still got an open mind and she does her own playlist goddamnit. You play it in campus bars and downtown in the clubs. Because your shit is genuinely good and you're talented, it catches on, stores wanna carry your disk, people buy it, and one day some label prick from some indie-eating monster musinc. corp barges into your studio and throws an astounding amount of money at you to buy out your little indie label and offer you an 8 record deal with a tour and all the booze, X, and 16 year old girls your heart desires.

And you, because you are an uncorruptible tower of artistic integrity, tell the label prick to go fuck himself. Yeah. That's it. Right.

Sigh.

There's alot of amazing indie music out there that doesn't get played. You buy it, freeze out the corporate product, and maybe you help support artist-controlled music. That'll feel good.

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Rebecca West ]


From: London , Ontario - homogeneous maximus | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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Babbler # 214

posted 26 October 2002 09:45 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's funny how the music industry could work out a copyright deal with radio without much problem.

What I noticed with "Napster" was that people my age were looking for old stuff from their obsolete vynyl collections to listen to on this new format. Not just me, but from talking to guys at work, this is how we were using it.

Sure, I did go and download some stuff I never bought before, like Johnny Burnets "Train Kept a 'Rollin", but you try finding that kind of stuff in a record store anyway-- and even if I tracked it down, would I have paid the price just for a look see? I doubt it.

The kids though, they were more apt to use Napster to steal fresh music, I'll grant you that.

But from my experience, I also saw kids my daughter's age really branching out, musically, becoming more eclectic in their tastes. It allowed broader sampling. I mean, my eldest had Marilyn Monroe's "Diamonds Are a Girls Best Friend" downloaded.

And, that's what the music industry is really afraid of, in the end, and that's why they don't in the least mind radio playing songs all the time without paying copyright over and over.

Because radio is in cahoots with the music industry to keep the general public neatly pigeion holed into specific genrés of music.

Kids who are eclectic in musical tastes are much harder to market to. That's why top 40 right now is "All Creed, all the time". And when it's not Creed, it's a Creed-a-like band.

Even "Classic Rock" isn't classic rock. These songs they play on Classic Rock are songs people who are into Rock got tired of listening to years and years ago. The only people who find "Classic Rock" cool now, are people my age who were into "Three Dog Night" or "Tony Orlando and Dawn" or "Barry Manilow" when Robert Plant was laying down the now sickeningly over played "Stairway to Heaven."

It is a matter of money, but it's also a matter of us being kept in lock step with what a few people think we should be buying and listening too.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 26 October 2002 10:06 AM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sure, I did go and download some stuff I never bought before, like Johnny Burnets "Train Kept a 'Rollin", but you try finding that kind of stuff in a record store anyway-- and even if I tracked it down, would I have paid the price just for a look see? I doubt it.

The kids though, they were more apt to use Napster to steal fresh music, I'll grant you that.



So, there are the youngsters who steal fresh music; and the not-so-young music-lovers who steal the not-so-fresh-music. Hmm, very intersting. Seems that thieving-tendencies tend to grow along with the years! Now, what is that copyright thingy all about?! Eh!

From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 26 October 2002 10:20 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've never said it was anything but stealing. That's clear under the current laws.

I'm just saying it's a load of codswallop, and my theft is nothing compared to the theft of the people I'm stealing from.

Oh, and what of the poor artist? The artists that regularly get "influenced by" or "inspired by" other artists? It would be interesting to see if "The Tea Party" paid copyright to Jimmy Page for lifting that riff from "In My Time of Dying" that they used in "Sun Going Down".... unless they paid it to whoever Jimmy Page lifted it...sorry....gained "inspiration" from.


We'r all a big happy family of thieves, aint we?

[ October 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
CyberNomad
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Babbler # 2926

posted 26 October 2002 10:38 AM      Profile for CyberNomad     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Luv yer logik!

[Two wrongs don't make a right, right?! (What a nagging thought!)]


From: St. Catharines ON | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ed Weatherbee
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Babbler # 2844

posted 27 October 2002 12:27 AM      Profile for Ed Weatherbee        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
...if I had taken care of the album, and notwieghted down the sytlus with a quarter, perhaps I'd still have it in listening condition...

Haven't thought of that procedure for playing dodgy albums in years..Brought a smile.
Did you start off with a penny and work your way up to a quarter.
You could hook your turntale up to your computer pretty easily and record your old CCR album as a digital file. Clean it up and you'd be ready to go. Nothing illegal with doing that.


From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 27 October 2002 02:07 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I never thought of that Ed, maybe someday I'll do that. I came across my old albums while cleaning the basement last year. I'd love to have the old library back in pristine condition.

No, Cyber, I'm the last to use "two wrongs make a right" argument.

I'm just arguing it's a big mess everywhere you look at it, and that the consumer is the least of the thieves, not the greatest-- or only one-- as some artists and music industry executives would like to have everyone believe, for obvious reasons.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ed Weatherbee
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Babbler # 2844

posted 27 October 2002 11:51 AM      Profile for Ed Weatherbee        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A friend has been doing this with a lot of his older, obscure albums. Already had a top of the line turntable and invested in a small amplifer from Radio Shack for under 100 bucks. Got rid of the scratches whatever with a some kind of editing (?) program. Great for stuff that is only available on import or has never been released on CD.
From: Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 27 October 2002 12:30 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The entire music industry is theft.

Which is why a method that allows music lovers to purchase directly from artists is the best solution. I read about a music service that will allows listeners to download tracks at 95 cents per song. The service has already signed up with a couple of big labels. The indies, who already sell their music this way with this service are worried they will be cut out. And they are probably right.

The solution is for the indies to establish their own service. And I bet within a reasonably short time, artists will begin to drift away from the big labels.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
SHH
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Babbler # 1527

posted 27 October 2002 07:38 PM      Profile for SHH     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Jenna Jamieson could teach these youngins something ‘bout content control and distribution.

More to the topic though: RIAA flack, Hilary Rosen, seems to have gotten her assed kicked in a recent debate at the Ox.


From: Ex-Silicon Valley to State Saguaro | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
cook_e monster
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2552

posted 03 November 2002 05:51 AM      Profile for cook_e monster     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
interesting topic. i would be one of the "youngens" that downloads music both fresh and obscure. i like having the choice of music, and unlike some of (if not most) of my contemperaries i will often buy the cd that i downloaded the day or week before, provided i can find it at the local store. I see no problem with my technique. if i like it enough i will definately spend the money, if not no such luck. its kind of like a test drive. there are dozens of bands and musicians that i never would have even heard of if not for music downloads and with some i have also bought there cd. music is for all and should be accessible to all whether they can afford the cd or not.
From: hell | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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Babbler # 1292

posted 05 November 2002 03:03 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whoops!
quote:
While major victories against Napster and MP3.com have won the RIAA much press, they have done little to stop other players from quickly replacing the ousted sites. KaZaA and MusicCity (the creator of Morpheus) have both logged over 90 million downloads through download.com.



From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged

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