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Author Topic: Grand theft morality
Wide Eyes
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Babbler # 1414

posted 01 November 2002 11:46 PM      Profile for Wide Eyes        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No hope for the future
Okay, I can understand the attraction to violence by teens, but to promote illegal, not to mention heinous crimes is appalling. It scares me to think that young impressionable kids are being rewarded for beating up prostitutes, killing police officers and stealing cars.

Who thinks up these things and why?


From: a lofty perch in my basement | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 02 November 2002 12:59 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, give it a rest.

I've played GTA, GTA2 and I'm working on getting GTA3, and I have absolutely no urge whatsoever to steal cars or run over anybody.

Anybody who plays these games and can't tell game from reality has a screw loose anyway.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Flowers By Irene
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Babbler # 3012

posted 02 November 2002 04:12 AM      Profile for Flowers By Irene     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Would you rather kids play 'Cowboys and Indians' or is the sublteness of the inherent morality conflict a deciding factor? Escapism got its name from somewhere you know. If you want to fantacize about being a 'good guy' there is for example 'Army men' where you can kill Nazis or or whats that one where you hunt down terrorists?

Or are you waiting for the Xbox version of 'Hague Tribunal'


From: "To ignore the facts, does not change the facts." -- Andy Rooney | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 02 November 2002 05:41 AM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with the last two posts. As with most entertainment-moral dilemas, it comes down to parental guidance.

FBI: that sounds like a good game! Are there any court-room simulators on the market? I can't think of any, and considering the number of Law-based TV shows, I find that interesting. I think there is also too few political simulators as well - where's West Wing for the PC?


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 02 November 2002 03:16 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I've got to jump in here on the side of the angels and Wide Eyes.

Adults know the difference between games and reality. 18-year-olds are adults. People over 18 getting their jollies out of pretend-violence are mature, emotionally balanced and make excellent citizens. People between 12 and 18 fantasize about violence as a normal part of exploring their psyche. It is healthy for children under 12 to play violent games.
Each of the above statements is true - in specific cases, though not in all cases.

North Americans are violent in real life. High crime-rate, domestic abuse, gang warfare, interpersonal conflict, misuse of firearms, high popular support for foreign aggression. North Americans watch a great many violent films and tv series, enjoy a great many violent sport and pseudo-sport spectacles, and play a great many violent games.
Each of these statements is also true in specific cases, though not in all cases.

Is there a connection between the two sets of fact? I believe so, and i believe statistics would lead to a similar conclusion, but i can't prove it absolutely.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
wei-chi
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2799

posted 02 November 2002 03:38 PM      Profile for wei-chi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
nonesuch, I concur their is a connection but not a causal one.

With regards to video games, there is currently an industry-voluntary rating system, but not legally enforceable. Making it legally binding isn't going to do much, however. Just as the movie-rating don't really work. Especially in our modern digital world, games are hacked and downloaded by 13 year olds everyday; same with movies. While the laws help in the extreme cases, from day-to-day it doesn't do much.

Once again, the burden of raising our children properly falls, primarily, to parents and families.

Now, a better way to reduce violence-consumption is to give parents better tools. The rating guide is one. Things like V-chips and NetNanny can help too - but are not a substitute for engaging your children. But I'd like to see more money to help parents be at home more. Reduce the workday, or the work week. Spend money on daycare, so that children can be properly monitored when parents can't be around.


From: Saskatoon | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
satana
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posted 02 November 2002 03:53 PM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You might find a correlation, but not neccesarily cause and effect. Maybe violent people are more likely to play violent games?
From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Adam Smith
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Babbler # 3034

posted 02 November 2002 04:40 PM      Profile for Adam Smith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
since when did babble become a hangout for canadian alliance members. i thought the people here were a little more enlightened then to be narking out video games.

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Adam Smith ]


From: Manitoba | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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Babbler # 117

posted 02 November 2002 04:55 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not sure it's narking out anything. I see it as a parenting issue and there isn't a specific parenting forum on babble.

I don't feel comfortable with my 13 and 15 year old playing certain games. But we discuss them, why I feel the way I do. They understand and agree the violence against women aspect of many of these games is offensive.

They do like some of them as a form of escapism and really there have always been things like this just in different forms.


From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
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Babbler # 2836

posted 02 November 2002 06:40 PM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe we could write one called Grand Theft Presidency.
From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Debra
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Babbler # 117

posted 02 November 2002 06:45 PM      Profile for Debra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: The only difference between graffiti & philosophy is the word fuck... | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 02 November 2002 09:58 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
You might find a correlation, but not neccesarily cause and effect. Maybe violent people are more likely to play violent games?

Maybe. How many violent games are sold every year? And how safe do we feel on the street at night?

Humans are naturally violent. A society can cope with this fact, or deny it. We choose to deny it while making enormous profit on it. As long as we try to keep the 6-year-olds from watching horror movies, it's okay to buy them a plastic chain-saw for Halloween. As long as we tell teenagers why we don't approve of them hitting one another, let them see fictitious adults solve every problem by hitting one another. After all, i can't prove that young people learn by example.

It's fun to watch others suffer and die.
Bullfights, cock-fights, dog-fights; bear-baiting, wrestling, boxing, jousting; whippings, hangings, beheadings, crucifictions, impalements; barroom brawls, rumbles, schoolyard scuffles all draw an audience.

Violent entertainment doesn't cause violent behaviour - it's the other way around: violent entertainment is a response to our craving for it. The more we get, the more we want, the more they make, the more we demand, the more we get. Not only does the volume of violent entertainment escalate, but also the intensity and detail.

Movies and games don't make the whole population violent; they just tell us, a hundred times a day, that our most destructive impulses are justified, normal, even praiseworthy.
Here and there, an unstable personality is pushed over the line from fantasy to action. Here and there, a mostly-stable personality is pushed over the line from passive viewing to fantasy. Here and there, a stable personality is pushed over the line from avoidance to viewing. Here, and there, and over there, and another two over here and few more next year... Gradually, every taboo becomes thinkable, then doable, then acceptable, then commonplace.

It's not a simple cause and effect relationship: it's a self-perpetuating spiral.

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
xrcrguy
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Babbler # 1562

posted 03 November 2002 01:30 AM      Profile for xrcrguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How bout this one
article
quote:
You can never be the enemy, in America's Army. In this popular new game of multiplayer combat, you can log on as a U.S. soldier who must, say, invade a terrorist camp -- but if someone logs onto the opposing side, to fight you, he also plays as a U.S. soldier. It's just that from his point of view, he's defending a U.S. camp from terrorist invasion. You will always see yourself and your squad in U.S. Army uniforms, wielding U.S. weapons. Everyone who signs up to fight, then, fights as an American.


From: Believe in ideas, not ideology | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
keaner
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3307

posted 08 November 2002 01:41 AM      Profile for keaner     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yea, right, that reminds me. I just finished playing Red Alert.....I think I shall invade Russia.
From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
feerit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3293

posted 09 November 2002 01:28 AM      Profile for feerit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just finished a few turns in the latest Steel Panthers : Main battle Tank scenario I was playing. I was the USSR and was well underway in taking over a few towns in W. Germany. I probably killed (well, represntatively, you only see a non-detailed graphic representation of your soldiers and equipment) ~ 1800 W. German soldiers already and have suffered around 850 casualties. I suppose I qualify for Video Game Murdrer #1!

Watch out for my deadly squadron of Spetsnaz commandos attacking your rear quarters!

Anyway, whats the big deal. Entertainment does reflect the society in that we live. Unfortunately, we do live in a relatively brutal, violent society where other people are really just "obstacles" to your wants, desires and needs which all 3 are perpatrated influenced and shaped by the people responsible for making the society brutal and violent

I play violent games. I've never even punched someone outside of jest - I agree with the notion that good parenting is necessary instead of any sort of harping on the media produced - even if you mean it in a good way (ie, dont perpetuate violence against women, as in GTA3 you get to pick up hookers and well, ravage them) it still comes out as the same censorship tack that really isn't the way to run any society. At least to me!

(time to go back to firing on more Bundeswehr soldiers! Take an airstrike you capitalists! boom!)


From: Outside of Atlanta, otherwise known as loonyland | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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Babbler # 2

posted 09 November 2002 12:27 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, I'm really appalled that so many people are defending a game where one way to get points is to beat up a prostitute. That's really sickening.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 09 November 2002 02:06 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You don't *HAVE* to beat up the prostitute to get the points. And if I get GTA3 I certainly don't plan to.

Besides, you RUN PEOPLE OVER in those games. I lost track of how many times I did that to get points.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mohamad Khan
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posted 09 November 2002 02:50 PM      Profile for Mohamad Khan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i'm not going to get into the debate on violence, and not being a parent, i'm not sure what to suggest with regards to parenting. when i played Wolfenstein and Doom, i don't think my parents really knew what i was doing on the computer.

i haven't played much since grade 9; i only do so if kids ask me to do so to show off how cool their their games are, and this happens maybe once or twice a year. i played Grand Theft at my 12 year old cousin's place about two years ago, and it just struck me as a pretty dumb game, although if i had been my cousin's age, i'm sure it would have been fascinating.

i guess because i lost interest at a certain age, i can't help but wonder what it is that compels people over 16-17 to play. don't you ever feel like you have better things to do? i think that's why i eventually stopped...i kept having this gut-wrenching feeling that it was a massive waste of time. this is around the time i learned the phrase "bread and circuses."


From: "Glorified Harlem": Morningside Heights, NYC | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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Babbler # 1402

posted 09 November 2002 03:27 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Anyway, whats the big deal. Entertainment does reflect the society in that we live. Unfortunately, we do live in a relatively brutal, violent society where other people are really just "obstacles" to your wants, desires and needs which all 3 are perpatrated influenced and shaped by the people responsible for making the society brutal and violent

Gee, i wonder who does all that shaping?


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 09 November 2002 07:20 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Gee, i wonder who does all that shaping?

The dog-eat-dog job market, political and economic leaders, parents, relatives and other authority figures and role models; not video games, movies, comic books or rap music.

If a society stinks, it's because of the shit at the top.


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 10 November 2002 01:46 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In other words, everybody but us.
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 10 November 2002 03:36 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
In other words, everybody but us.

I'm not sure I understand. Who do you mean by "us"?

From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 10 November 2002 11:42 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Us: you and me and whoever else is in this discussion

quote:
political and economic leaders, parents, relatives and other authority figures and role models

That includes an awful lot of people, but somehow excludes you and me.

quote:
If a society stinks, it's because of the shit at the top.

...which somehow rose to the top; somehow became rich and powerful...

But none of this is in any way related to any product we enjoy.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 10 November 2002 11:49 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That includes an awful lot of people, but somehow excludes you and me.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends on how much influence you and I have on other people. I'd like to think that people consider me a role model, but I doubt that many people are influenced by me. If they were, the world would be a much nicer place.
quote:
...which somehow rose to the top; somehow became rich and powerful...

A lot of people at the top didn't rise there; they were already there since birth.
quote:
But none of this is in any way related to any product we enjoy.

I'm not sure what you mean by this statement either.

[ November 10, 2002: Message edited by: Andy Social ]


From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 11 November 2002 01:06 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
*sigh*

Even if somebody was born rich, their parents or grandparents or great-grandparents had to become rich first. The way that usually happens is: other people buy something they're selling and they make a profit. They usually make a big profit, because other people were willing to pay more than the thing was worth. A lot of people, somewhere along the line, were foolish enough to make them rich.
If somebody is getting rich, or richer, now, it's because other people are buying whatever they're selling. Other people are contributing to their wealth and power.

If the rich produce things that are harmful to society and you buy those things, you are contributing to whatever harm is being done to the society.

But you don't want to know about cumulative effect, because you enjoy the thing and it's not doing any obvious, immediate harm to you. You don't want to see the connection between small, individual choices and a bad society.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Secret Agent Style
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2077

posted 11 November 2002 11:23 PM      Profile for Secret Agent Style        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
But you don't want to know about cumulative effect, because you enjoy the thing and it's not doing any obvious, immediate harm to you.


I don't believe that video games (which I don't play, by the way) cause real harm to anyone, period.
quote:

You don't want to see the connection between small, individual choices and a bad society.


I definitely see a connection between small, individual choices and a bad society, but I don't believe that video games are one of those choices that lead to a bad society.

From: classified | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 12 November 2002 11:41 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
okay
From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4019

posted 29 April 2008 02:00 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Grand Theft Auto IV has hit shelves.

A History of Violence

Seth Schiesel's review at the New York Times

quote:
Breathing life into Niko and the other characters is a pungent script by Dan Houser and Rupert Humphries that reveals a mastery of street patois to rival Elmore Leonard’s. The point of the main plot is to guide Niko through the city’s criminal underworld. Gang leaders and thugs set missions for him to complete, and his success moves the story along toward a conclusion that seems as dark as its beginning. But the real star of the game is the city itself. It looks like New York. It sounds like New York. It feels like New York. Liberty City has been so meticulously created it almost even smells like New York. From Brooklyn (called Broker), through Queens (Dukes), the Bronx (Bohan), Manhattan (Algonquin) and an urban slice of New Jersey (Alderney), the game’s streets and alleys ooze a stylized yet unmistakable authenticity.

Violence and video games

quote:
Video game popularity and real-world youth violence have been moving in opposite directions. Violent juvenile crime in the United States reached a peak in 1993 and has been declining ever since. School violence has also gone down. The U.S. Secret Service intensely studied each of the 37 non-gang and non-drug-related school shootings and stabbings that were considered "targeted attacks" that took place nationally from 1974 through 2000.

The Secret Service found that there was no accurate profile. Only one in eight school shooters showed any interest in violent video games; only one in four liked violent movies.

On the other hand, reports of bullying are up. Our research found that certain patterns of video game play were much more likely to be associated with these types of behavioural problems than with major violent crime such as school shootings.

For many children and adolescents, playing video games is an intensely social activity, not an isolating one.

Many games involve multi-person play, with the players either in the same room or connected electronically. They often require that players communicate so that they can co-ordinate their efforts. Our research found that playing violent video games was associated with playing with friends.

For younger children especially, games are a topic of conversation that allows them to build relationships with peers.


Of course, groundbreaking code, rich characters in a textured narrative and improved social skills are all well and good, but there is that nagging problem of selling beating up prostitutes and objectifying women to adolescent boys. From feministing:

quote:
So someone tell me why is it okay to objectify women and "allude" to sex while engaging in excessively violent behavior in a very very realistic video game, but we draw a line when we can actually SEE the sexual acts? Why the arbitrary line? The hidden pedagogy within this game is clear and is ALREADY affecting the minds of young (and older) boys. Not to mention the effect on young girls that play the game (because some girls DO play video games!)

[ 29 April 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 April 2008 03:14 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just saw this now for the first time:

quote:
Originally posted by Flowers By Irene:
Or are you waiting for the Xbox version of 'Hague Tribunal'

Haha! I miss FBI.

Maybe they now have "Hague Tribunal" for the Wii. You can be the judge, and use the joystick to pound the gavel.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152

posted 30 April 2008 09:43 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When people complain of violence, racism or sexism in video games, movies, and music I am always reminded of this quotation that I am sure some babblers are familiar with:

quote:
"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."
Tony Campolo

As mentioned in this thread way back in 2002 objectionable content in entertainment reveals objectionable content in our society; it does not cause it. Focusing on representations of serious problems in entertainment just takes the focus of those same problems in reality; in fact most of the time thats why people engage in such, because they have no interest in solving any problems, just covering them up.


That said I won't be playing GTA4. Because I can't afford to.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Scout
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1595

posted 30 April 2008 12:40 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
When people complain of violence, racism or sexism in video games, movies, and music I am always reminded of this quotation that I am sure some babblers are familiar with:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have three things I'd like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a shit. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said shit than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So you lurked for ages and still think that dismissing racism and misogny is good conversation on babble? That's fucking fantastic.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 April 2008 12:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, how about not assuming that babblers don't give a shit about all those things, okay? There are about a million threads here that many of us have contributed to over the past seven years that prove otherwise.

And by the way, Campolo was saying that to homophobic idiots who sit in their million dollar churches and preach hate against gays and lesbians, not to left-wing activists who actually care and speak out on those issues.

[ 30 April 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152

posted 30 April 2008 01:03 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
So you lurked for ages and still think that dismissing racism and misogny is good conversation on babble? That's fucking fantastic.

Ouch, I guess thats what I deserve.

I didn't mean to suggest that everyone here was uninterested in fighting present racism and misogny. You can give me the benefit of the doubt or not.

When companies like Walmart pull video games like GTA from their shelves are they fighting racism and misogny? Their effort starts and stops there, with the appearance of giving a fuck; so does most people's. Obviously not including yours. I'd just rather keep real and present issues like these at the forefront rather than under the carpet.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 30 April 2008 01:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's okay, everyone puts their foot in it once in a while. I don't think you need to worry about us not caring about other issues just because some of us care about this one.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Snuckles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2764

posted 30 April 2008 06:09 PM      Profile for Snuckles   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The prohibitionist killjoys at MADD want a stricter rating for GTA IV:

quote:
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Mothers Against Drunk Driving wants a stricter rating on "Grand Theft Auto IV."

The organization is calling on the Entertainment Software Ratings Board, the independent organization that assigns video-game ratings, to reclassify "GTA IV" as an Adults Only game. The action-driving game, which includes the ability to drive while intoxicated, is currently rated Mature.

"Drunk driving is not a game, and it is not a joke," MADD said in a statement released Tuesday. "Drunk driving is a choice, a violent crime and it is also 100 percent preventable."

MADD is also calling on publisher Take-Two Interactive and developer Rockstar Games to consider stopping distribution of the game — which analysts expect to sell 9 million copies and make over $400 million at launch — "out of respect for the millions of victims/survivors of drunk driving."


Read it here.


From: Hell | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7673

posted 30 April 2008 07:13 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
MADD is also calling on publisher Take-Two Interactive and developer Rockstar Games to consider stopping distribution of the game — which analysts expect to sell 9 million copies and make over $400 million at launch — "out of respect for the millions of victims/survivors of drunk driving."

Yeah there's a winning argument. Let's call on a business to turn down obscene amounts of cash out of respect for other people.


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152

posted 01 May 2008 05:09 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Yeah there's a winning argument. Let's call on a business to turn down obscene amounts of cash out of respect for other people.

Stopping distribution is pretty well impossible since Rockstar already developed the game and all paid all their costs; this is when they expect to get paid. MADD would have a little more luck stopping development of GTA5 by working to attack demand for GTA4 rather than supply of the product; attacking supply doesn't work in the war on drugs either.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 15 May 2008 04:11 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
MADD would have a little more luck stopping development of GTA5 by working to attack demand for GTA4...
And just what makes you so confident they aren't?

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 15 May 2008 04:32 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My Trip to Liberty City Jim Munroe
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Michelle
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posted 15 May 2008 04:40 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's FABULOUS!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 15 May 2008 05:44 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Glad you like it. The mime was my favourite.
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Michelle
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posted 15 May 2008 05:56 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think my favorite part was just him running along the streets, talking casually about how it's too nice out to kill someone with a bat, and about how you can see the city so much better on foot than driving. Priceless!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 15 May 2008 06:01 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, I love Jim's delivery.
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Catchfire
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posted 16 May 2008 12:49 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Here's my suspicion of criticism against games like GTA. Video games seem to bear a disproportionate amount of criticism for misogyny and violence from other cultural forms like film and television, even though the content of the video game is far less graphic than shows like CSI or torture-porn films like Saw and Hostel.

There is very little evidence that the first-person aspect of gaming connects users to the violence any more than one would identify with it through other media. But the virtual killing of a woman seems to attract much more attention than the real killing of a woman, whether by state-sanctioned violence in acts of war or by criminal violence. It's almost as if the protests against violence become as virtual as the game: virtual protests for virtual violence while the real deal continues apace.

Of course, games like this also afford users to distract from their own misogyny. The explanations and apologizing for the game, some of which appear in this thread, are revealing. There's something barbaric about the explanation "You don't have to kill prostitutes to win the game." But I find it equally barbaric for a culture to condemn sex worker violence in a game and do nothing about it in real life, for real sex workers and for real women. I mean, criticizing the game for normalizing virtual drunk driving? That is so out of touch, I can't begin to process it.

I can certainly relate to the visceral reaction these games provokes from us. But what does it say about our society when a game provokes a larger reaction than life?


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
writer
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posted 16 May 2008 03:30 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
One of the things I like about Jim's video is that his delivery is so conversational. Not alarmist. It's like a double-critique, both of elements of the game, and of the kind of thing you write about.

All done with a quiet humour and humanity. And a celebration of the creativity of the people who imagined all of these details that aren't promoted in the marketing of the game, but that do exist.

At one point, he comments about there being no advertising in Liberty City, and what a pleasure it is to spend time in an urban landscape free of it.

He also tries to get into the cabs that go by on the street. Apparently, they aren't programmed to accept passengers. Funny, telling.

BTW, the first Saw had only one female victim, if I recall correctly. She was the only one to survive. The rest were male.

That said, I agree that torture porn gets a fraction of the attention paid to these games. As do the real lives of women, and the war being waged against us.

[ 16 May 2008: Message edited by: writer ]


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martin dufresne
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posted 16 May 2008 05:30 AM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In response to Catchfire:
quote:
the virtual killing of a woman seems to attract much more attention than the real killing of a woman, whether by state-sanctioned violence in acts of war or by criminal violence
Well, if you look around, there is actually quite a movement afoot to denounce and end real-life violence against women and racialized populations.
As for the rationale of protesting the misogyny ingrained in gore films and games such as GTA IV, forgive me for stating the obvious, how about the fact that they are packaged and sold as entertainment, aimed at a mostly young audience? It seems to me that this may well deserve a thought and a protest too in some progressive quarters.

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 May 2008 06:10 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I played this game when it came out as GTA II. I shot a few people, robbed some, paid for a prostitute and sort of dicked around looking at what was there to see. There wasn't much really to it. And it didn't really require any skill.

It's pretty interesting in the scope of the environment, and it really is a huge place, but the RPG aspects of the game a pretty limited, and story lines are pretty much predictable. There are much more interesting RPG/Action games on the market now.

Probably the most interesting aspect of the game sociologically speaking is its deep cynism that it expresses about the soul of American society. Its the chicken and the egg here, is the game normalizing violence, or is it representative of the normalized violence? Having lived a little in the states, I'd be more inclined to say its the latter really, plus it is a big fuck you to a "morality" that is largely perceived to be a con job.

No good messages here, but then again, I did not feel any compulsion to act out violently or engage in a crime wave. Nor did I buy the game after I played it a few times.

The "my Trip to Liberty City" vid sums it up pretty much. It's a yawn.

[ 16 May 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 16 May 2008 07:45 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That video is hilarious. I love his shock at having to pay $1000 after being hospitalized. And then it incites him to theft, which then incites him to run away from the police, and then...

quote:
As for the rationale of protesting the misogyny ingrained in gore films and games such as GTA IV, forgive me for stating the obvious, how about the fact that they are packaged and sold as entertainment, aimed at a mostly young audience? It seems to me that this may well deserve a thought and a protest too in some progressive quarters.

I don't understand this point. First of all, I said that gore films do not get nearly as much journalistic outrage as video games do, and both get far more press than any protest against war or systematic misogyny. Secondly, bolding aside, why does the fact that these products are sold as entertainment make them a better target for progressives than actual, physical acts of violence? Why does being sold as entertainment make them any more severe? Shouldn't it, instead, render their significance more inane?

[ 16 May 2008: Message edited by: Catchfire ]


From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 16 May 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A grand inquisitor played Grand Theft Chariot in southern France, saying of the Cathars, "kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!"
From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 16 May 2008 11:01 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nonesuch:
Movies and games don't make the whole population violent; they just tell us, a hundred times a day, that our most destructive impulses are justified, normal, even praiseworthy.
Here and there, an unstable personality is pushed over the line from fantasy to action. Here and there, a mostly-stable personality is pushed over the line from passive viewing to fantasy. Here and there, a stable personality is pushed over the line from avoidance to viewing. Here, and there, and over there, and another two over here and few more next year... Gradually, every taboo becomes thinkable, then doable, then acceptable, then commonplace.

It's not a simple cause and effect relationship: it's a self-perpetuating spiral.

Agreed.

It might all be a coincidence, but I don't think so.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 16 May 2008 05:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My son told me tonight all about a friend of his that he was playing with outside, and about some playground drama (nothing serious, just the usual primary school mind games between kids - if you're his friend you can't be mine, blah blah).

Anyhow, after he told me this story about his friend, who he stuck up for, he told me that this friend of his was "really cool". He said that he was cool because he's nice, and fun, and he has the new Grand Theft Auto.

I was kind of surprised (dismayed is more like it) and I asked him whether he had ever played it. He said no. I asked how old this kid was (my son's 9 and a half), and he said the kid was 11. He told me that his friend is only allowed to play the game for one hour a week.

What kind of moron parent buys Grand Theft Auto for their 11 year-old kid?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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