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Author Topic: Olivia Chow walks for Israel
Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2008 11:10 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For those who think the NDP's new found support for "Durban II" represents a change in direction, keep this in mind

quote:
Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair led the walk, which was well represented by representatives from all political parties in all levels of government including Secretary of State (Multiculturalism and Canadian Identity), Jason Kenney and Stephane Dion, Leader of the Official Opposition. Other politicians included Ken Dryden, MP, Martha Hall Findlay, MP, Carolyn Bennett, MP, Joe Volpe, MP, Susan Kadis, MP, Mario Silva, MP, Borys Wrezensnewskyyj, MP, Senator Art Eggleton, Senator Jerry Grafstein, Peter Shurman, MPP, Mike Colle, MPP, Monte Kwinter, MPP, Toronto Councillor Shelly Carol, Vaughan Councillor Alan Shefman, Richmond Hill Councillor David Cohen, James Pasternak, Toronto District School Board Trustee and Olivia Chow, MP. Israel Consul General Amir Gissin also walked with the large crowd.

I know Olivia has a saintly reputation among progressive activists, so I'm sure this is disappointing to many.

I wonder how her constitutents would feel if they knew she participated in this march? Who is she trying to appeal to - Liberals and Conservatives?

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 June 2008 11:16 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I wonder how her constitutents would feel if they knew she participated in this march?

Hip Hip Hooray!!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 19 June 2008 11:20 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Seriously Stockholm, I can't imagine very many people in a very progressive riding like T-S would want their MP marching on behalf of the State of Israel...and that those who do, probably aren't very progressive.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Max Bialystock ]


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 June 2008 11:38 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would guess that 95% of people in the riding would be totally indifferent and of the remaining 5%, some will be progressive Jews who like being reassured that the NDP isn't anti-Israel and some will be people who aren't crazy about it but also know that there is no party in Canada that is anti-Israel - so you better find another issue to base your vote on.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 19 June 2008 12:20 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can't imagine very many people in a very progressive riding like T-S would want their MP marching on behalf of the State of Israel...and that those who do, probably aren't very progressive.

Your imagination is uninformed. You don't really have any idea of what a "progressive" person is, and Olivia Chow is best advised to ignore you and your ilk.

Israel is the culmination of the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people, and is the birthplace of millions of Jews, whose parents and grandparents faced death in concentration camps.

Whether Israeli policy is smart, stupid, oppressive, or otherwise is an entirely different question. Olivia is marching for Israel, and the right of Jewish people to have a state, and not for some specific policy.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 June 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Similarly, if someone wants to invite me to a Bastille Day party - I'll go regardless of what i might think of the Sarkozy government.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 June 2008 12:26 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I would guess that 95% of people in the riding would be totally indifferent and of the remaining 5%, some will be progressive Jews who like being reassured that the NDP isn't anti-Israel and some will be people who aren't crazy about it but also know that there is no party in Canada that is anti-Israel - so you better find another issue to base your vote on.

There are tons of progressive Jews in Trinity-Spadina and I really don't see Olivia NOT marching for Israel or the NDP supporting attendance at the anti-racism conference, etc. would lead them to decide to vote for Tony Ianno instead.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 19 June 2008 01:21 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't the walk take place in her riding? It is normal for the local MPP and local MP to attend all sorts of community events that take place in the riding.

But if people who live in the riding are so upset that their MP attended the event. The answer is simple find another candidate to run against her at the nomination meeting or vote for someone else.

Part of the role of an MP is to attend community events in the riding.


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 01:29 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:

Israel is the culmination of the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people, ...

Thanks for your "support". If you cared one bit about the liberation of the Jewish people, you would not speak kindly about Israel, whose murderous and ethnocentric policies expose more Jews to daily peril than any other phenomenon since World War II - leaving aside the misery and danger that it represents to all the non-Jews in the region. It is also a standing renunciation of centuries of Jewish struggle for equality before the law and other civil rights throughout the Diaspora.

Zimbabwe was born of the national liberation struggle of its people and their struggle against white racist minority rule. Would you suggest that Olivia Chow participate in a March for Zimbabwe?

It is unconscionable for a Canadian political leader to celebrate anything about Israel while Israel flouts international law in the Occupied Territories and neighbouring countries (leaving aside its internal policies). Either Olivia Chow is doing this because she believes it's a good thing, or because she's fishing for votes and has no principles. I wish there were a third explanation.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 19 June 2008 01:36 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whether Israeli policy is smart, stupid, oppressive, or otherwise is an entirely different question. Olivia is marching for Israel, and the right of Jewish people to have a state, and not for some specific policy.

Sure Jeff, just a harmless walk for Israel. Because Israel doesn't have any allies, or nukes, or get away with serious human rights abuses ( of which you, as a lawyer are supposed to stand against).

Glad you see this as nothing but a harmless little walk. Tell me, why are any progressive people marching for Israel? Even the non-progressives know Israel commits war crimes.

I am pretty damn sick of the "Israel as Victim" bullshit I read on here from people.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Whether Israeli policy is smart, stupid, oppressive, or otherwise is an entirely different question.

It's entirely the same question.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 19 June 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
It is unconscionable for a Canadian political leader to celebrate anything about Israel

Well I guess you can only vote for the Greens since they were not listed as attending


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 19 June 2008 01:48 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:

Tell me, why are any progressive people marching for Israel? Even the non-progressives know Israel commits war crimes.

Yes I wonder why....


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Slumberjack
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posted 19 June 2008 01:55 PM      Profile for Slumberjack     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Didn't the walk take place in her riding? It is normal for the local MPP and local MP to attend all sorts of community events that take place in the riding.

In all fairness then, someone should organize a Palestinian freedom march, and invite the same group of politicians. Fat chance any of them would show up. Chow might though.


From: An Intensive De-Indoctrination, But I'm Fine Now | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Politics101
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posted 19 June 2008 03:30 PM      Profile for Politics101   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is unconscionable for a Canadian political leader

When did Chow become the leader of a party - do you know something the rest of us aren't aware of.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 03:53 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Politics101:

When did Chow become the leader of a party - do you know something the rest of us aren't aware of.


Yes. The meaning of the word "leader".


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 04:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about a hyperlink to what is yet another damning news story about the NDP? This is slip-shod blogging without an actual news source for reference allowing us to jump to conclusions, false or otherwise.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 19 June 2008 04:15 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would she do this?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 04:27 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure either, but we'd best stay on topic. Ah! Here we go:

quote:
Proceeds from the 2008 walk will go to programs for children and youth in Israel, with a specific focus on those in Sderot and the western Negev. They include trauma services, a program to reinforce roofs on some public buildings, and educational or social welfare services for youth at risk.

This is insidious! I would never have guessed that an NDP'er and social democrat would put aside partisan politics to walk in support of social services for children in any country regardless of their politics. Disgusting and really low!!! Suffer the little children ...

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
Who is she trying to appeal to - Liberals and Conservatives?

Apparently not you, that's for sure.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 04:44 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Proceeds from the 2008 walk will go to programs for children and youth in Israel, with a specific focus on those in Sderot and the western Negev. They include trauma services, a program to reinforce roofs on some public buildings, and educational or social welfare services for youth at risk.

Surely you're joking, Fidel. This is far worse than I realized. The march is to support the handful of Israeli victims of the Gaza "terrorists" - to hell with the hundreds of Palestinian residents of Gaza murdered in Israeli raids and the entire territory which is held under blockade.

All these politicians, of whatever party, should be ashamed of themselves - and so should you, Fidel, always fishing for excuses for whatever some NDPer does. The NDP are the least guilty on this front of the three major parties - but they need people like you to keep them honest, otherwise crap like this happens.

quote:
I would never have guessed that an NDP'er and social democrat would put aside partisan politics to walk in support of social services for children in any country regardless of their politics.

Perhaps we should start a fund for children of U.S. "diplomats" and "contractors" in Iraq - imagine the trauma these poor little ones must be going through. Hell, put politics aside, think of the children...

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 19 June 2008 04:54 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Good for Olivia. Fear not Unionist and some others here I still hold that the majority of Jews in Toronto would welcome her support. Further when anti-Zionist Jews have a rally how many show up? At this walk there were 1000s. That should tell you something
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 04:56 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Surely you're joking, Fidel. This is far worse than I realized. The march is to support the handful of Israeli victims of the Gaza "terrorists" .


No, but this does seem to be about Olivia walking in support of social services for children traumatized by violence. I've provided a news source for the thread. Apparently you and several others weren't even interested as to what the walk was for. Now you know.

Sometimes it's not about the anti-NDP rhetoric. I know some people around here couldn't care less about Ontario's sky-high child poverty and lack of social supports for children in general, and that's somewhat revealing in itself. But the NDP has been fairly consistent and persistent in their condemnation of our 22 percent Liberal dictatorship with Pinocchio's nose growing longer as the months and years roll by. And now Olivia is being consistent in kind with supporting children's social services in Israel. She's not said that she supports Israeli apartheid. And suggesting that she does support THAT is despicable and low, imo.

THIS THREAD IS PURE UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT. CLOSE IT DOWN PLEASE!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 04:58 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Good for Olivia. Fear not Unionist and some others here I still hold that the majority of Jews in Toronto would welcome her support. Further when anti-Zionist Jews have a rally how many show up? At this walk there were 1000s. That should tell you something

Yeah, it tells me that they're interested in raising money for the kids in Sderot but not the kids in Gaza. Thanks for helping turn my people into that.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 05:06 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They're kids, unionist. Can you lower your hatred of social democrats for once and allow a break for kids not living under Liberal jackboots somewhere else in the world? Jeez!
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 05:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dogbert
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posted 19 June 2008 05:27 PM      Profile for Dogbert     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel and Jeff House on the same side? Did someone call an apocalypse and not tell me?
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RevolutionPlease
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posted 19 June 2008 05:39 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for getting me the real story Fidel.
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Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 05:44 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It was probably a federal Liberal government with all-parties in agreement which signed us all up for a UN Children's Rights pledge, and I'm not sure. Come on, let's everyone leave this thread in the gutter where it belongs.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 19 June 2008 06:43 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Proceeds from the 2008 walk will go to programs for children and youth in Israel, with a specific focus on those in Sderot and the western Negev. They include trauma services, a program to reinforce roofs on some public buildings, and educational or social welfare services for youth at risk.
Israel receives over $3 billion annually in aid (most of it military) from the USA, and politicians in Toronto are holding fund-raisers to raise a paltry half-million for the UJA Federation (formerly the United Jewish Appeal)?

Does Israel really have to depend on charity from Canada to meet its own obligations to provide social services? Couldn't they divert $500,000 (less than .03%) of the US military aid money to "reinforce roofs on some public buildings" and provide social services to youth?

No, of course they couldn't. They need to spend every dollar of that blood money on armaments with which to destroy the roofs on public buildings and kill and maim youth in Gaza, Lebanon, and other countries of the Middle East.

And so every charitable dollar sent to Israel in order to relieve the colonial settler state of its obligations to its own people is a dollar freed up for its pursuit of the phony war on Terra.

It's a shame Fidel can't see that.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 07:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Israel receives over $3 billion annually in aid (most of it military) from the USA, and politicians in Toronto are holding fund-raisers to raise a paltry half-million for the UJA Federation (formerly the United Jewish Appeal)?

Does Israel really have to depend on charity from Canada to meet its own obligations to provide social services? Couldn't they divert $500,000 (less than .03%) of the US military aid money to "reinforce roofs on some public buildings" and provide social services to youth?


This is what Freda Berrigan, Senior Research Associate with the Arms Trade Resource Center at the World Policy Institute had to say about U.S. aid to Israel:

quote:
We’re looking at incredible increases in U.S. military aid and weapons sales to Israel. Military aid stands at about $3 billion a year. That’s about $500 for every Israeli citizen that the United States provides on an annual basis. And then, weapons sales, most recently, since the Bush administration came into power, we’re looking at $6.3 billion worth of weaponry sold to Israel.

Israel’s relationship with the United States is unique in a number of ways. And one of those ways is that essentially the United States provides 20% of the Israeli military budget on an annual basis, and then about 70% of that money that is given from the United States, from U.S. taxpayers, to Israel is then spent on weapons from Lockheed Martin and Boeing and Raytheon. Most other countries don’t have that sort of cash relationship, where they go straight to U.S. corporations with U.S. money to buy weapons that are then used in the Occupied Territories and against Lebanon.


I don't imagine much of that money will be ear-marked for children's social services. We're talking about a country with an economy the size of Belgium's or Denmark's. The Israeli's can't really afford to be a self-sustaining front-line state for the U.S., and neither can Colombia afford to be a repressive right-wing death squad state without U.S. military aid. However, there are children in the middle of all this ...

eta: If any country were to send aid to Ontario for the purpose of fulfilling McGuinty's broken promises to half a million children living anywhere below the poverty line, I think our two old line parties might even be a little embarrassed. But even though they would not, the children likely wouldn't care where the money came from, even though Ontario has never been obligated to fritter aid money away on U.S. military contracts for weapons of death and destruction. Our stooges in Canada tend to fritter money away on more important things, like tax cuts for the growing foreign corporate domination of our economy, more military spending here, expensive gun registries, ad scandals, and debt payments to the private banking cabal after years of deliberately retarding overall economic growth in favour of exporting massive amounts of energy and raw materials to the same imperial master nation propping up a right-wing Israeli government today.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 19 June 2008 07:48 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I don't imagine much of that money will be ear-marked for children's social services.
So you and I have to chip in to help out poor underfunded Israel?

Sorry, I gave at the office.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 08:06 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
So you and I have to chip in to help out poor underfunded Israel?

Sorry, I gave at the office.


Children have rights no matter what quarrels you may have with right-wing Israeli's, an imperial master nation common to both Israel and Canada and propped up by our massive energy and raw materials exports to corporate America, or with an NDP real opposition MP. I think we should exclude children from our political disagreements with U.S. and Israeli hawks. Kids have no real rights in any country unless people guarantee them unconditionally, and that's more or less what the UN declaration on Rights of the Child says, and which one of our own hypocritical federal governments signed on to a number of years ago, and I think they were Liberals.

eta: Kids have long memories, and if they grow up not knowing any socialism whatsoever, then chances are they will be hard characters in adulthood and never desire social justice for their's or anyone elses. Kids are the future everywhere, and so I think we should think of a little socialism as an investment in the future. Investment in the future sometimes pays off. Central planning 101, comrade commisar.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 19 June 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do you actually read this crap before you post it?
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 08:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Do you actually read this crap before you post it?

What I want to know is, what is the petulant beef certain posters here might have with the NDP besides Olivia's support of children's rights in general? Spit it out, but quit using children for incredibly stupid political squabbles.

I think if we separate the bullshit from what matters, kids will be better off for it.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
laine lowe
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posted 19 June 2008 08:30 PM      Profile for laine lowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Being that Olivia Chow is a politician, I might cut her some slack if she also marched for a group raising money to help the Palestinian children and families trapped in Gaza and suffering 10x what the children and families of Siderot suffer.
From: north of 50 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 June 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh so now we have a heirarchy of suffering?? Suddenly its wrong to give any money to families of people blown up by suicide bombers in Israel, because there might be more suffering in Gaza.

Does that mean that we should all refuse to attend any marches or give any money to any causes relating to poverty or homelessness in Canada on the ground that there is 10x more poverty and more need in Bangladesh?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by laine lowe:
Being that Olivia Chow is a politician, I might cut her some slack if she also marched for a group raising money to help the Palestinian children and families trapped in Gaza and suffering 10x what the children and families of Siderot suffer.

Great idea. So when will you be organizing this walk? I'll try and be there myself. I'll even cut you some slack for copping out if you don't have the time but not for being without personal conviction to follow through on your support of Palestinian children's rights.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 08:52 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

What I want to know is, what is the petulant beef certain posters here might have with the NDP besides Olivia's support of children's rights in general? Spit it out, but quit using children for incredibly stupid political squabbles.

All right, Fidel, you're correct. Time to spit it out. Time for confession.

It's all about the NDP.

Nothing else matters.

We see every single issue through the prism of the NDP.

Will it help the NDP? Will it hurt the NDP? Has the NDP supported it? Has the NDP opposed it?

That's it, that's all. The rest is just window-dressing. Whether it's marches, or elections, or Israel, or Afghanistan, or Cuba, or ATM fees, or separate school funding, or faith and social justice commissions, or God in the constitution - sports - sex - everything - first we check to see what the NDP says, then we open threads and start blasting away accordingly.

And when the NDP changes its position - so do we. And when the NDP is waffling about its position - we say we're weighing our options until the waffling stops, and then out we come from the closet.

You've got us. Bingo. Touché. The NDP is the touchstone, the be-all and end-all, our yardstick, our metric system, our gold standard. It's what puts us to sleep in the morning and wakes us up at night. And vice versa.

The NDP. Without it, we'd have absolutely nothing to talk about.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to confess, Fidel. Yes, and Stockholm.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 09:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya, and I'm simply suggesting that vendetta specialists exclude children in every country from their latest and dumbest feud with the NDP, is all. Christ knows you wannabe social democrats don't give a rats' patooty about min wage or sky-high child poverty in Liberal Ontario. Whenever children are mentioned in a similar context, the parade of excuses come rolling out for deflecting blame from its rightful owners. And yes, there's a slow fuse on that one.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
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posted 19 June 2008 09:07 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
What I want to know is, what is the petulant beef certain posters here might have with the NDP besides Olivia's support of children's rights in general? Spit it out, but quit using children for incredibly stupid political squabbles.

I never realized Peter Shurman, Peter Kent, Joe Volpe and Monte Kwinter were so concerned with children's rights.


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Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 09:16 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

I never realized Peter Shurman, Peter Kent, Joe Volpe and Monte Kwinter were so concerned with children's rights.


Well we know that. And I won't hazard a guess as to what they were doing in the walk. So why are we singling out Olivia, because her's is the most consistent record on supporting child rights. This walk for a social cause tends to emphasize her record for supporting children's rights.

But are all those walkers secretly supporting Israeli apartheid we as well? Are these guys Knights of Columbine or some private society with a secret handshake I'm not aware of? Sorry, I don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would want to use children in a political battle against stupidity. Fighting fire with fire is stupid too. Right-wing Israeli's apparently don't care if their children are traumatized. So who does care? Let's know who supports social democracy if only for short people regardless of whose' lowly ones are involved. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 19 June 2008 09:44 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Does that mean that we should all refuse to attend any marches or give any money to any causes relating to poverty or homelessness in Canada on the ground that there is 10x more poverty and more need in Bangladesh?

That's pretty fucking ridiculous. Did you know that Israel is actively occupying Palestine? Unlike Canada and Bangladesh.

A better analogy would be Chow attending a march to provide aid to the children of Caledonia whose parents can't afford the basics because their businesses have been ruined by that terrible Six Nations conflict, which we can all agree, politics aside, causes harm to Caledonians and Haudenasuanee both. It's about the kids right?

By the way, 10x is a bit small if we are going to reduce murder into statistics. 400 Palestinians have been killed by Israel versus the 7 Israelis who have died in the most recent violence.


From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 09:52 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
400 Palestinians have been killed by Israel versus the 7 Israelis who have died in the most recent violence.

Well, the Palestinians can organize their own march in Toronto to raise money for their own kids. Right, Fidel? Stockholm?


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Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 09:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a matter of LOVE! vs HATE!!! And the world is filled to capacity with people who LOVE to HATE
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 19 June 2008 09:54 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, this just in... Olivia Chow apologizes for participating in the march and condemns Israeli aggression against Gaza...

Just kidding, Fidel. As you were.


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Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 10:02 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wage war on HATE with big LOVE. Je'taime Jjjjj'taime Je taime!

And leave the little bastards out of it. They're so impressionable, you know?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Le Téléspectateur
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posted 19 June 2008 10:08 PM      Profile for Le Téléspectateur     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Love's just an abstract concept it can't knockdown stuff." - Cleopatra from Clone High - Raisin the Stakes.
From: More here than there | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 19 June 2008 10:11 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Attennnn-hut!

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 June 2008 12:46 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel, every time we engage in a conversation about international politics that you don't like, you immediately try to steer the discussion towards domestic politics. What is wrong with you?
Do you know anything about Israel and its policies toward the Palestinians?

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 12:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, my shadow again. I'm just saying we should maybe consider drawing the line on when and why we're criticizing the NDP, or any politican really in our incessant and petulant grievances with various MP's or another. So I suggest that whenever any federal or provincial politician does something which might contribute to or show solidarity for the social welfare of children in any country, we might consider that to be off limits for petty and incessant attacks on their characters.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 01:04 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If she also marched in this march I will give her a pass for marching in the other one.

World Partnership Walk


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 01:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya, we have no alternative but to conclude Olivia is for Israeli apartheid and against fighting global poverty. That's brilliant. So, were any of you there by any chance? If not why not?
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 01:16 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope, my conclusion is she should pay more attention who she gives her support to. Both these groups claim to be altruistic and I have no reason to doubt it but really don't you see the difference between something called "A Walk for Israel" and a "World Partnership Walk." The one has its charitable purpose subsumed in a political statement about Israel while the other is all about the charitable causes. I know which one I would want my MP attending.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 20 June 2008 01:29 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My conclusion is that you couldn't get elected Chairman of the Outhouse.

But go ahead, prove me wrong; run for something and see how far you get with your ideas.


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unionist
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posted 20 June 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One more post, and I'm pretty sure you'll have Fidel convinced.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
My conclusion is that you couldn't get elected Chairman of the Outhouse.

But go ahead, prove me wrong; run for something and see how far you get with your ideas.


Again Jeff with the personal attacks. Is this the way you act in real life? Maybe you should try debating ideas instead of presuming only yours are right.

I don't run for things but have worked in leadership roles in many winning campaigns. For me I would be too frustrated with being elected and having to watch people like Emerson meet in secret with his corporate buddies from both sides of the border and then have him come and grace us peons with his Lumber Deal or Security and Prosperity sell out.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 01:45 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
The one has its charitable purpose subsumed in a political statement about Israel while the other is all about the charitable causes. I know which one I would want my MP attending.

Sure, the Aga Khan Foundation is a member of the Aga Khan Development Network. And they built a five star hotel in Kabul complete with luxury suites for visiting dignitaries, western corproate execs and other charitable cases who can afford what 95% of them can't in a country with some of the worst infant mortality rates in the third world after decades of western interference in that country on Russia's doorsteps.

What I do recognize is that medieval sieges of countries blackballed by the axis of weasels tends to have wide-ranging consequences for people living in those countries, like 1.5 million dead Iraqis since 1991. Cubans have felt the wrath of a vicious and genocidal U.S. sanctions as have North Koreans, Cambodians, Vietnamese etc.

Canada provides all kinds of important support unconditinally to a vicious empire when we send cheap raw materials and energy to the USSA. In turn, that country sends billions of dollars in military aid to Israel and other front-line fascist states around the world. I'm not suggesting we cutoff trade to the USSA altogether, but simply that use free market mechanisms to make them pay for what's taken off our hands in this country as well as a few conditions attached to basic human rights violations in the USSA.

Similarly, trade sanctions against South Africa's apartheid regime were ineffective and mostly hurt the most vulnerable in that country. in the end it was sociallly responsible investing cutoff over $600 billion dollars in foreign money to key industries in South Africa and credited with contributing largely to bringing down the fascist apartheid regime.

And so, I think we can direct money to children's welfare causes without propping up fascist military regimes at the same time. It's been done before.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 01:49 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel Fidel my friend. You would make a far more effective advocate if you didn't find such convoluted reasons for supporting some of the NDP's mistakes. Lets face it the NDP is a group of humans and to err is human. Once in awhile even good people like Olivia make bad choices.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 02:02 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And you might be a more effective cherry-picker if you had a clue as to what you were talking about in this instance. But I doubt it.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 20 June 2008 02:04 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Both of you are very silly people. It's like you had a competition to name yourselves after decrepit "revolutionary" figures so that your political escapism could seem heroic.
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Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 02:25 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Both of you are very silly people. It's like you had a competition to name yourselves after decrepit "revolutionary" figures so that your political escapism could seem heroic.

The only thing decrepit is your tired cold war era rhetoric and the "new" Liberal capitalism now failing hundreds of millions of human beings around the world. Socialism in Cuba is a success. Just ask a former World Banker or two, or the many Canadians who have been to Cuba and realize how much better off the people are than in freely-trading Haiti or those struggling countries in Central America just a few day's drive from Texas.

Some posters here have said in so many words that all this U.S. imperialism is a product of ineffecient capitalism and bad choices made innocently by Republicans and Democrats alike. And all of those bad decisions for foreign and domestic policies which just so happen to line the pockets of and concentrate vast wealth in the hands of a few, has nothing to do with U.S. imperialism or US aspirations for empire and global domination - the very same thing our cold warriors accused the Soviets of. And that's where you fall down on your weak and unconvincing arguments in general. It's a vicious empire at the root cause of the most dire issues threatening true democracy around the world, today and for a long time.

As for the pot-shot'ers and cherry-pickers with terrible aim on the NDP, I, too, have certain issues with the NDP's policies. None of which most here would dream of mentioning. I wouldn't dare mention what those issues are for fear of feeding the trolls.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2008 02:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jeff, please stay out of this thread from now on since you can't seem to post without making personal attacks.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 June 2008 02:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just saw this:

quote:
Israel is the culmination of the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people,

I'd have some sympsthy for this statement if the "Jewish people" had freed themselves from foreign occupation, which is what is usually understood by the phrase "national liberation struggle."

The irony of what I just quoted ought to be obvious to anyone familiar with the 60-year Palestinian struggle for national liberation.


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kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 03:07 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I saw that and other pro-Israel language and that is why I thought this was not an appropriate march for Olivia. When Israel stops its occupation and there is a peace celebration I hope all NDP politicians come out and march hand in hand with both Palestinians and Israelis. In the meantime my sympathies lie with the oppressed not the oppressor state. I tend to agree with the comments from above.

quote:
A better analogy would be Chow attending a march to provide aid to the children of Caledonia whose parents can't afford the basics because their businesses have been ruined by that terrible Six Nations conflict, which we can all agree, politics aside, causes harm to Caledonians and Haudenasuanee both. It's about the kids right?

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 03:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Le Téléspectateur:
A better analogy would be Chow attending a march to provide aid to the children of Caledonia whose parents can't afford the basics because ... It's about the kids right?

Google Results 1 - 10 of about 1,240 from ndp.ca for children

Google Results 1 - 10 of about 143 from oliviachow.ndp.ca for children

How does your MP compare? Olivia Chow apparently refuses to use children as political pawns to make some irrelevant and small-minded point about something children have no control over.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 03:42 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My MP is better. But I think Olivia is also good and a good advocate. Some of us are not attacking her we are saying that this event showed support for Israel and the children part was an add on.

The view that these children need camps to cope with stress from living under a constant threat is a vomit inducing. What the children need is peace with their neighbours who are under far greater threats from the Israeli government than vice versa.

quote:
Children in and around Sderot, in Israel’s Negev, have lived under daily rocket attacks most of their lives. The disruption of normal life and the economic hardships that result take a heavy toll on families. All money raised at this year’s Walk With Israel will benefit a special summer camp run by Youth Futures, a program that breaks the cycle of poverty and stress. The camp isn’t just for kids in the region; it’s for whole families. It’s a place where parents and children can spend time together, building their relationship and trust, and learning, with the help of trained staff, how to cope. It’s also a place where they can relax for a while and enjoy themselves, away from the danger.
Imagine that getting away from the danger. I wonder if the people of Gaza or the West Bank ever think of getting away form danger. But I guess its an impossible dream when you live in prison.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 03:48 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you think punishing children is a good way to spite people who love to hate?

And who's the MP for Cyberspace anyway?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 20 June 2008 03:54 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
So you think punishing children is a good way to spite people who love to hate?

And who's the MP for Cyberspace anyway?


Punishing children? No I think their parents should make peace with their neighbours and stop punishing children on both sides of the border. War hurts children. Supporting Israel unconditionally supports their occupation and extends the war and does nothing to promote peace. I would love to see marches with both Israeli supporters and Palestinian supporters demanding that peace break out. That would help the children.

My MP is not from cyberspace is Olivia?


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 June 2008 04:00 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This "children" bullshit has to stop. Children are actually being used as human shields - to avert attacks on Israeli policy. This is pathetic.

If the thread had been entitled "Liberals and Conservatives walk for Israel", the "children" fraud would never have reared its head in this thread. And certain NDP supporters would have been onside about the injustice of "walking for Israel".

Partisanship turns the brain to mush and freezes the heart. In times of actual struggle, it can actually confuse good people into ending up on the wrong side of the barricades. Someone should do a study of this phenomenon.


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Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 04:07 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
War hurts children. Supporting Israel unconditionally supports their occupation and extends the war and does nothing to promote peace.

Israeli children are not doing anything of the sort. You're delusional.

quote:
My MP is not from cyberspace is Olivia?

So who is this MP who loves children? Olivia has a web site where she references the word children over 140 times.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 04:20 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
This "children" bullshit has to stop.

Children are the future. Why do you hate the future, unionist? What have they done to you?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 June 2008 04:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Olivia isn't evil. She hasn't sold her soul to the corporate devil. But she did make a very bad political decison. If she was marching in an attempt to end Israeli militarism, I would support her decision. She didn't. The march is about reaffirming the idea that Israel is a victim, nothing more.
Fidel, having a march for Israel is a bit like having a march for France. Israel has the money to deal with whatever social problems it has, it just dosen't, because it's spending so much on occupying Palestinian land.
We can't speak for the oppressed. We shouldn't build their infrastructure, or tell them what to do. But we can sure as hell stay away from dumb ass marches which celebrate
the oppressor.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 June 2008 05:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Children are the future. Why do you hate the future, unionist? What have they done to you?


This is a Macarthyite straw man.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 20 June 2008 05:08 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OT:

quote:
having a march for Israel is a bit like having a march for France

Who is in for the march for France? Afterall think of the children!

quote:
Although France occupies an average position in terms of European levels of general poverty, the rate of child poverty is above average for the EU.

source

From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 05:18 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
According to this UNICEF report of 2005(pdf) Canada's child poverty is nearly twice the same rate in France.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 June 2008 05:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

So who is this MP who loves children? Olivia has a web site where she references the word children over 140 times.


A web site, or a menu?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 05:23 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

This is a Macarthyite straw man.


I am not now nor have I ever been an advocate for using children as political pawns.

Children have certain undeniable rights whether you like it or not.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 05:32 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

A web site, or a menu?


What's that supposed to mean? A feeble attempt at ethnic humour? Because if it is, it's pretty low class.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 20 June 2008 05:43 PM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
According to this UNICEF report of 2005(pdf) Canada's child poverty is nearly twice the same rate in France.

Well then I'll be calling the French to ask when they're planning a march for us

We clearly aren't thinking of our own children, let alone those in Israel/Palestine.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 05:52 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by It's Me D:

Well then I'll be calling the French to ask when they're planning a march for us


I don't imagine France is perfect either. But their kids aren't going into mortgage size debt for the right to access higher education like young Canadians. And according to that Michael Moore video, the government pays for nanny services to new mothers in France. Our experience here isn't so and leaning more and more towards U.S. style conservative nanny state And in certain ways, even the U.S. has more socialism than we do in Canada, except that not a lot of it goes to poor people in that country.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 20 June 2008 07:05 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Whether Israeli policy is smart, stupid, oppressive, or otherwise is an entirely different question. Olivia is marching for Israel, and the right of Jewish people to have a state, and not for some specific policy.

How very nice of her to walk for an ethno-centrist, supremacist state. Will she walk for a White Christian state as well? Did she walk in support of White South Africa? The Boers fought a real liberation struggle to establish a white supremacist state. Surely she would have walked for that?

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 June 2008 07:17 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

What's that supposed to mean? A feeble attempt at ethnic humour? Because if it is, it's pretty low class.


It was a joke about eating children. Sorry if I revealed my low-class origins.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 20 June 2008 07:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Will she walk for a White Christian state as well?

Are you saying Whites and Christians don't have a right to their own country, just like Palestinians?

I refuse to negotiate with you until you recognize the right of White and Christian states to exist.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 June 2008 11:47 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

How very nice of her to walk for an ethno-centrist, supremacist state.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
tweety
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posted 21 June 2008 02:49 PM      Profile for tweety        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

How very nice of her to walk for an ethno-centrist, supremacist state. Will she walk for a White Christian state as well?
[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]

I think it is much more simple. Based om 2001 data, Elections Canada reports 4400 jews in Trinity Spadina, as opposed to 2800 muslims. Enough said.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 21 June 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tweety:

I think it is much more simple. Based om 2001 data, Elections Canada reports 4400 jews in Trinity Spadina, as opposed to 2800 muslims. Enough said.


Go away.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 21 June 2008 03:02 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually Fidel, she is supporting a supremest ethnic centric state. I think this was a bad move on her part. I'm an NDP supporter as well, but I think lately they have been making far too many mistakes. To the point where they aren't really speaking for me.

The whole BS with the prayers and this and helping to prop up the fucking Cons. It has got to end. We need a true left party, not this shit.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 June 2008 03:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I refuse to spite children so that I can be on the right side of history. For me, hate stops at children.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 21 June 2008 03:35 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I fail to see how Israeli children are going hungry, and how that has to do with us. We have our own problems. If it was a march for the Palestinian kids who have been left orphaned, or without homes, or clean drinking water (because Israel is dumping its sewage on their land), I would support this.

This is a walk to raise money for kids who live in a society that values large military budgets over kids. I have no pity for them.

Fidel, when are you sending some money to the kids in the US? Those kids living in New Orleans sure could use the money. There are a ton of kids in rich societies who are screwed over by their governments.

Giving money to Israel is stupid. They can buy nukes, start wars but can't feed their kids? Bullshit.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 21 June 2008 04:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that just about everything you've described is Israeli apartheid. I give to charities when I am able to and donate my time when able.

However, children around the world, whether Palestinian, Israeli, Afghan, Haitian, Nunavutian, etc have basic rights though whether we like it or not. If no one cares about the welfare of children and their rights, then who will? Hatred is the seed of destruction

[ 21 June 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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posted 22 June 2008 03:32 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're not implying I hate kids right? Because that would be wrong.

But whatever. Draw up a cheque for the poor kids in NO and I'll believe that this is about the kids.

Personally I refuse to give money to places which commit atrocities against their own kids by engaging in wars (and and might I add, killing other kids while doing so?). I don't think I'll be giving the US or Israel a dollar to help fund more wars so they can avoid the responsibility of taking care of their own citizens, while killing others. Sorry.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 22 June 2008 04:03 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Agreed. The more money you raise to pay for stuff that they should be spending their money on instead of killing Palestinians, the more you enable them to kill Palestinians.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jaku
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posted 22 June 2008 04:22 AM      Profile for Jaku     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
then we should also not give aid (by your standards) to sudan, gaza, columbia, china, sri lanka. in other words so many so called governments today put their children at such grave risk never mind children of other nations. yes we must hold israeli policy to world scrutiny as a means to stop the occupation. but being selective on issues such are being discussed here only gives more ammunition to people like ohara and stockholm who continually remind us that we at times are seen as having a singular view of israel in comparision to others. let's not give them that ammunition.
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 22 June 2008 04:31 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of your list of countries, only Israel commits aggression against other countries, occupies lands belonging to others in violation of U.N. resolutions and international law, and discriminates juridically against people of the wrong ethno-religious origins.

Israel must be isolated as the pariah country that it is, until it brings itself within the rule of international law and of human morality. Until then, it will continue to be responsible for the murder of children, both inside and outside Israel.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jaku
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posted 22 June 2008 04:39 AM      Profile for Jaku     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
china has not occupied tibet? for me though it does not matter. all these countries have terrible human rights records. the ivory coast and some other nations force children into the miltary and treat children in almost slave like conditions. unionist we cannot be simply myopic as are you. israel's transgressions are well known and we do not let it off the hook. but your singular focus , as some others here, on israel alone is a problem. especially when it comes to the treatment of children.

[ 22 June 2008: Message edited by: Jaku ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 22 June 2008 04:54 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jaku:
china has not occupied tibet?

Tibet is part of China, according to every country in the world.

quote:
for me though it does not matter.

Apparently.

quote:
all these countries have terrible human rights records.

This isn't about "human rights". Our human rights responsibility begins in Canada. We have no business interering in the internal affairs of other sovereign countries. Your "human rights" slogan was invented by the U.S. as a pretext for invasion and slaughter.

quote:
israel's transgressions are well known and we do not let it off the hook. but your singular focus , as some others here, on israel alone is a problem. especially when it comes to the treatment of children.

I patiently tried to explain that the "children" issue in this thread is bullshit, and it does not behoove adults and progressive people to argue in this fashion. Why don't you go organize a "Walk for Republicans" to raise money for their children? Do you think you're talking to a child here?

My "singular focus" is not on Israel - it is, in the first place, on Canada, the U.S., and other such powers which commit crimes abroad on a vast scale. Israel exists on life support of the U.S. and commits particularly abominable crimes in that regard - but it's not the biggest player, just one of the more vile ones.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 22 June 2008 05:00 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Israel is the culmination of the national liberation struggle of the Jewish people, and is the birthplace of millions of Jews, whose parents and grandparents faced death in concentration camps.

Whether Israeli policy is smart, stupid, oppressive, or otherwise is an entirely different question. Olivia is marching for Israel, and the right of Jewish people to have a state, and not for some specific policy.



Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Similarly, if someone wants to invite me to a Bastille Day party - I'll go regardless of what i might think of the Sarkozy government.

quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Zimbabwe was born of the national liberation struggle of its people and their struggle against white racist minority rule. Would you suggest that Olivia Chow participate in a March for Zimbabwe?

Certainly. Zimbabwe is not Robert Mugabe.
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I would never have guessed that an NDP'er and social democrat would put aside partisan politics to walk in support of social services for children in any country regardless of their politics. Disgusting and really low!!! Suffer the little children ...

Good one.
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbert:
Fidel and Jeff House on the same side? Did someone call an apocalypse and not tell me?

This is a much better thread than I expected.
quote:
Originally posted by Jaku:
israel's transgressions are well known and we do not let it off the hook. but your singular focus, as some others here, on israel alone is a problem.

Agreed.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 22 June 2008 05:08 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilf, I thought I'd mention I find your "right of Jewish people to have a state" to be very offensive. Given your other comments, I'm pretty sure you won't understand why that's offensive.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 22 June 2008 05:27 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it assumes Jewish people can't really be full citizens of Canada, France, Argentina or wherever. Something anti-semites have always hinted at or said openly.

The idea of Israel as the culmination of the struggle of the Jewish people is historically wrong - before the Second World War and the mass murder of European Jewry, the vast majority of Jews were NOT Zionists, and the struggle of the Jewish people typically took various Socialist or Liberal forms. The Bund's concept of Jewish peoplehood was far more cultural than territorial, and that was the largest group that put such an accent on Jewish peoplehood.

Israel was a place to send the Jews who had not been murdered by the Nazis and their friends - why did the Palestinian people have to be forced of their lands for the crimes of Europeans? (Not only Germans - collaborators could be just as bad).

On an aside, I loathe the "think of the children stuff". We must think of all vulnerable people, young, old or in-between. The reason child poverty rates are lower in France than in North America is the state provision of various forms of benefits to lower-income PARENTS and universal measures for parents. For example, far fewer divorced or separated mums wind up in poverty in France than in Canada, to say nothing of the US.

Of course if Sarko had his way, the above would change.

I do have a problem attending commemorative events at the Italian consulate given the current Italian government - not because it is conservative (I wouldn't have such problems attending German consular events, though I certainly don't support Merkel) but because it includes avowed racist and fascist elements. The mayor of Rome and his anti-Roma (Gypsy) statements are among the most horrible examples of what is to be found in the current Berlusconi coalition.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 22 June 2008 05:46 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Wilf, I thought I'd mention I find your "right of Jewish people to have a state" to be very offensive.

Perhaps I do. I misread Jeff's quote as "right of the Jewish people . . ."
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
The idea of Israel as the culmination of the struggle of the Jewish people is historically wrong - before the Second World War and the mass murder of European Jewry, the vast majority of Jews were NOT Zionists, and the struggle of the Jewish people typically took various Socialist or Liberal forms. The Bund's concept of Jewish peoplehood was far more cultural than territorial, and that was the largest group that put such an accent on Jewish peoplehood.

I certainly defer to your judgment here, and I have read the same thing before. Still, I also defer to the judgment of the many people who DID flee to Israel.
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
why did the Palestinian people have to be forced of their lands for the crimes of Europeans? (Not only Germans - collaborators could be just as bad).

Can you tell me -- I'm asking because I don't know -- whether any Palestinians would have been forced off their lands by the original United Nations partition resultion?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 22 June 2008 06:17 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you tell me -- I'm asking because I don't know -- whether any Palestinians would have been forced off their lands by the original United Nations partition resultion?

I'd like to know why this makes a difference? Does it negate what is currently happening? Does it make the crimes perpetrated by Israel any less? I am honestly curious.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
jrose
babble intern
Babbler # 13401

posted 22 June 2008 06:54 AM      Profile for jrose     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry to have to close this thread, especially when it ends on a question, but we're over 100 posts. Please open another one.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged

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