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Author Topic: "Holy Grail" of antiquity deciphered
bittersweet
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posted 18 April 2005 01:03 AM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
...in a breakthrough described as the classical equivalent of finding the holy grail, Oxford University scientists have employed infra-red technology to open up the hoard, known as the Oxyrhynchus Papyri, and with it the prospect that hundreds of lost Greek comedies, tragedies and epic poems will soon be revealed.

In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia. They even believe they are likely to find lost Christian gospels, the originals of which were written around the time of the earliest books of the New Testament.

*snip*

The previously unknown texts, read for the first time last week, include parts of a long-lost tragedy - the Epigonoi ("Progeny") by the 5th-century BC Greek playwright Sophocles; part of a lost novel by the 2nd-century Greek writer Lucian; unknown material by Euripides; mythological poetry by the 1st-century BC Greek poet Parthenios; work by the 7th-century BC poet Hesiod; and an epic poem by Archilochos, a 7th-century successor of Homer, describing events leading up to the Trojan War. Additional material from Hesiod, Euripides and Sophocles almost certainly await discovery.


Click!


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 18 April 2005 01:10 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A NEW PLAY BY EURIPIDES AND SOPHOCLES!?

*graciously changes pants and begins reading The Frogs in anticipation*

Brekekekeke koax koax.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 18 April 2005 01:45 AM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Uhhh, this is not "news"... They've been gradually publishing these texts since the 1930s. On average, they publish one complete text a year.

check this web page:

http://oxyrhynchus.biography.ms/

Damn newspapers and their stupid sensationalism!


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 18 April 2005 08:51 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm curious to know how they can take a couple of words or a couple of sentences from a fragment and somehow 'know' it's Aeschylus or what have you.

The infra-red thing uses the difference in reflection between ink and papyrus under IR light to reveal more letters and words than otherwise might be visible. They tried it a few years back on the Dead Sea Scrolls to great effect, both finding new characters in damaged areas and also being able to confirm the nature of some less-certain characters (on the level of 'is that a j or a messy i?').

Edit: Reassemble your own papyrus fragments

[ 18 April 2005: Message edited by: aRoused ]


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 April 2005 10:09 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, on the one hand, Surferosad and aRoused, I'm grateful for any context that specialists can give us.

But it is hard to read all those distinguished specialists quoted in the Independent article and not think that something special has happened.

I'm not a classics scholar although I've worked with some, and I have a teensy notion of how much it would mean to them to have Archilochos to read. Theories about Homer (and how those works got written, over how long a time, by how many) are rich and various, and any new data added to the discussions could send them in new directions.

So I'm tempted to say Hallelujah! anyway. And I really want to read Lucian's novel.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 18 April 2005 11:20 AM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Non, no! This is really cool, I agree! But that wasn't my point! The article misrepresents the nature and the amount of work that is going into the deciphering of those manuscripts. It's painstaking meticulous slow work that has been going on for decades (which is typical of most scientific research) and they talk about it as if it had been the result of some "eureka" moment! Like if an archaeologist (picture Indiana Jones) tripped, fell into a tomb and found a mass of papyrus that he started to decipher on the spot, under torch light: "by Jove, I think it is a play by Sophocles! But it's nearly illegible. Let's take it to the eggheads in the infrared lab!"

[ 18 April 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
bittersweet
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posted 18 April 2005 11:52 AM      Profile for bittersweet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As for sensationalism: "But only a small proportion have been read so far. Many were illegible...Professor Richard Janko, a leading British scholar, formerly of University College London, now head of classics at the University of Michigan, said: "Normally we are lucky to get one such find per decade." "The Oxyrhynchus collection is of unparalleled importance - especially now that it can be read fully and relatively quickly," said the Oxford academic directing the research, Dr Dirk Obbink.

As for how they "somehow know" who wrote what: "The fragments form part of a giant "jigsaw puzzle" to be reassembled. Missing "pieces" can be supplied from quotations by later authors, and grammatical analysis." In other words, with this relatively rapid expansion, the puzzle's pieces will get larger, faster.


From: land of the midnight lotus | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 18 April 2005 12:05 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, it *was* probably a bit of an Eureka moment for the scholars, particularly if the ones from Oxford weren't aware of the advances in the IR techniques (also useful for rock art and other faded things). So if they gave the interview it's entirely possible they were completely blown away by how much more info they were able to get out of the fragments.

It *is* very cool stuff, for example that writer of whom only 500 words remain, and now there's 30 more (words? Sentences? Can't recall).


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 18 April 2005 03:37 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Surferosad, your link is not current [after 1999 but before 2005]; the Independent article says:
quote:
...In the past four days alone, Oxford's classicists have used it to make a series of astonishing discoveries, including writing by Sophocles, Euripides, Hesiod and other literary giants of the ancient world, lost for millennia...
quote:
...Now scientists are using multi-spectral imaging techniques developed from satellite technology to read the papyri at Oxford University's Sackler Library. The fragments, preserved between sheets of glass, respond to the infra-red spectrum - ink invisible to the naked eye can be seen and photographed...
How long have these specific imaging techniques been available?

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 18 April 2005 03:44 PM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
My point was that work on these manuscripts has been going on for quite a while. This new infrared technique is just a new tool being added to something that has been going on since the 30s. I got a bit annoyed because the article didn't quite acknowledge this. I thought it misrepresented in a sensationalistic way the effort that has been put into understanding these papyruses. But, I mean, it doesn't really matter, this is undeniably cool! I,m just being cranky, just reacting to the way how a lot of science is talked about in the media.

[ 18 April 2005: Message edited by: Surferosad ]


From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 18 April 2005 05:51 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes it does Surferosad. This work goes on for centuries, really. In fact, various manuscripts keep on getting added because new information is added to them. This century alone has seen the completion of gospels that were supposedly lost during the middle ages, all because they were passed down from scholar to scholar.

In this case is the fact that they've been able to actually get a collection together and in a few days unearth what is like a secret pirate treasure of information. That's what is making this unique.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 18 April 2005 06:58 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'm curious to know how they can take a couple of words or a couple of sentences from a fragment and somehow 'know' it's Aeschylus or what have you.

One way may be that there do exist lists of plays by Aeschylus, plays which had been lost.

I believe he won the Olympic play writing contest several times with plays now unknown.

There also exist numerous references to the lost plays, including character names and even snatches of dialogue.

So, this sounds pretty good.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 18 April 2005 10:52 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As It Happens interviewed an Oxford guy about this this evening; he said it's possible to date a papyrus by changes in handwriting. I don't recall all of it but he said the new techniques might improve some papyri that they have already published; and that the new techniques had been used on papyri from Herculaneum, which had been carbonized but in which now the ink could be distinguished from the carbon, or something like that.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 18 April 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Surferosad, I think there is just a problem with reporting science in the media. Somebody makes a discovery, but then they take months or years figuring out what it means and writing it up for publication; so when does the media report it? Also it may be like every generation discovering sex; some reporter who snoozed through their science courses in school suddenly becomes aware of an exciting bit of science, but has no idea of the historical context.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Surferosad
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posted 19 April 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for Surferosad   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Quite right. Also, they probably tend to think that the "eureka" story sounds more interesting from a selling the newspaper point of view.
From: Montreal | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Brett Mann
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posted 19 April 2005 06:49 PM      Profile for Brett Mann        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Frankly, it is the prospect of discovering new Christian gospels which may pre-date the earliest New Testament writings which really intrigues me. I understand Biblical scholars posit a missing work which they call simply "Q" which seems to be the source for later writings. A lot of people got distracted (and disappointed?) by the Dead Sea Scolls, which have little direct connection with early Christianity. But the Nag Hammadi discoveries in the 1950s in Egypt include the Gospel of Thomas which is acknowledged by the majority of Biblical scholars to be authentic, and worthy of inclusion with the other four Gospels of the NT.

The picture of Jesus and his teachings which comes through the Thomas Gospel is a somewhat different one than that given us by most orthodox Christian history. If newly de-coded Gospels at Oxford support Thomas, this might represent the start of a fresh look at Jesus and a "primitive Christianity" renaissance.


From: Prince Edward County ON | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
angrymonkey
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posted 20 April 2005 02:10 AM      Profile for angrymonkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
and that the new techniques had been used on papyri from Herculaneum, which had been carbonized but in which now the ink could be distinguished from the carbon, or something like that.

Yes, watched that on a tv documentary.
Herculaneum papyri


From: the cold | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 20 April 2005 09:17 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
How long have these specific imaging techniques been available?

They derive from satellite image processing techniques (like using satellite photos to track vegetation changes, etc), so...since Landsat 1? Using them on paper is what's new.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 21 April 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Nice link, angrymonkey; I'm all for treasure hunting.
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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