babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » right brain babble   » humanities & science   » FREEDOM

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: FREEDOM
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 16 June 2003 11:19 AM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
3 kinds of freedom

1) freedom that corresponds with the size of your bank account, the larger your bank account the more freedom u may experience (temporary/profane/delusional freedom)

2) liberating yourself from dependencies and becoming self-sufficient, subsisting independently. living a solitary existence by separating yourself from the parasites that make up the rest of humankind who have no concept of freedom while engaging in a process of freeing oneself from wants, needs and desires (eternal)

3) death (eternal)
*keep your fingers crossed on this one because it might be the only freedom many of us will ever know*


From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
Babbler # 3469

posted 16 June 2003 11:44 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, I don't want to lead a "solitary existence", and I don't want to die, so I guess you're saying that #1 is the sane choice?


From: `,_,`,_,,_,, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 16 June 2003 11:53 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Isn't freedom just another word for "nothing left to lose"?
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 16 June 2003 01:20 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Feelin' good is good enough for me ...

Well, actually, it isn't, although it is so nice ...

I am so in favour of freedom. If Deception is right and those are the only ways that freedom is presenting itself to us at the moment, then we must all think of ways to improve this situation.

The desire to be free is a basic animal impulse, and therefore most respectable in my books -- just like cuddling, and a few other desires. We must find ways to get more of these things for everyone.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 16 June 2003 01:42 PM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
sanity is so overrated especially in an insane world. i dont know if we have an intrinsic impulse to be free but our freedoms are lost in the socialization process so maybe rediscovering your freedom is essentially the realization of your untainted pristine self
From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 16 June 2003 02:07 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ronb:
Isn't freedom just another word for "nothing left to lose"?

"nothing aint worth nothing but it's free"

♪ Nah nah nah ♪ nah nah nah nah nah ♪ .. ♪ nah nah nah nah nah ♪ nah nah nah nah me and ♪ Bobby McGee ♪. . .

[ 16 June 2003: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 16 June 2003 03:24 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
rediscovering your freedom is essentially the realization of your untainted pristine self

Great idea, though hardly a new one.
In 1968 and thenabouts, people went off in droves, to Find Themselves. Mostly, they turned into ordinary adults, with jobs, kids, mortgages, worries - and very little freedom. I guess that indicates which are the strongest natural drives.
Some people manage to have normal lives, with family, friends and meaningful work, while keeping their economic baggage relatively light.

If there is such a thing as an "untainted pristine self", i hope you find one.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 16 June 2003 03:31 PM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
well actually rediscovering your untainted pristine self is an eastern concept, a prerequisite to moksha or nirvana
From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3336

posted 16 June 2003 06:04 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1. freedom from responsibility
2 freedom to choose one's responsibilities

From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 16 June 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deception:
3 kinds of freedom

1) freedom that corresponds with the size of your bank account, the larger your bank account the more freedom u may experience (temporary/profane/delusional freedom)

2) liberating yourself from dependencies and becoming self-sufficient, subsisting independently. living a solitary existence by separating yourself from the parasites that make up the rest of humankind who have no concept of freedom while engaging in a process of freeing oneself from wants, needs and desires (eternal)

3) death (eternal)
*keep your fingers crossed on this one because it might be the only freedom many of us will ever know*


Number two contains a false dichotomy - one needn't be solitary to engage in an inner work. To be 'in the world, but not of it', is the old beckoning call of many 'Ways'... In fact, from this point of view, you can even have number one, as long as you are sufficiently rooted in number two. The problem with number one conceivably arises from the issue of identification with commodities and commodity fetishism (vanity, pride, etc.) without any mind to their transcience. To USE them as tools in their own sphere without being identified, beholden, addicted to them is no mean feat, but certainly the essential 'freedom of conscience' or what-have-you is still there, non?


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 16 June 2003 11:28 PM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:

Number two contains a false dichotomy - one needn't be solitary to engage in an inner work. To be 'in the world, but not of it', is the old beckoning call of many 'Ways'... In fact, from this point of view, you can even have number one, as long as you are sufficiently rooted in number two. The problem with number one conceivably arises from the issue of identification with commodities and commodity fetishism (vanity, pride, etc.) without any mind to their transcience. To USE them as tools in their own sphere without being identified, beholden, addicted to them is no mean feat, but certainly the essential 'freedom of conscience' or what-have-you is still there, non?


i didn't insinuate that u had to lead a solitary existence to free yourself from wants, needs and desires. i was merely suggesting that cultivating a solitary existence may encourage the process of one freeing oneself from the cycle of conspicuous consumption. adopting a solitary existence to me entails renouncing all material things and living like an ascetic. i guess using your interpretation of solitary existence u could practice #1 and the first part of #2 simultaneously. however, i really dont know where u get the dichotomy from, i really dont see the tension being a solitary existence and renouncement.


From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 June 2003 11:50 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This thread may prove to be a good backgrounder.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 17 June 2003 11:21 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deception:

i didn't insinuate that u had to lead a solitary existence to free yourself from wants, needs and desires. i was merely suggesting that cultivating a solitary existence may encourage the process of one freeing oneself from the cycle of conspicuous consumption. adopting a solitary existence to me entails renouncing all material things and living like an ascetic. i guess using your interpretation of solitary existence u could practice #1 and the first part of #2 simultaneously. however, i really don’t know where u get the dichotomy from, i really don’t see the tension being a solitary existence and renouncement.


Sorry for the misunderreading, the structure of your sentence made me read the ideas as if they were joined. I agree that a certain 'renunciation' may be necessary, but as a blanket doctrine it isn't necessary. Some people may require to actually start 'buying more' or 'participating more' in certain kinds of activities. The principle for this is the following: in order to really 'see' one's self; in order to be able to watch one's self as they really are in all their addictions, one must consciously act differently in a way that would make them uncomfortable. So, a person who already lives a meagre existence, and is 'afraid to consume' - you know, a spendthrift - may actually need to try experiments where they spend much more, even to the point of putting themselves in financial risk and then watch the terrible push and pull inside of them as they try to carry out the order. The energy produced can give the oppurtunity to 'see' one's self, so that you can know what it is that you are trying to get free of.

Otherwise, it is very easy to simply fall into an equal identification/addiction to the 'ascetic self', the controlling personality who thinks they have it all figured out...


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
ValleyGirl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2315

posted 17 June 2003 01:22 PM      Profile for ValleyGirl        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are 12 definitions of Freedom in my Funk'n'Wagnalls.I think it's a very relative thing.Obviously,it has different meanings for different people.I even have a friend named Freedom(It's his given name).I wonder what freedom means to him.
From: Slocan;British Columbia | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 18 June 2003 01:51 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Come now!

We are all marionettes, tied with an infinite number of strings to the 'others'. As they say 'a rose is a rose is a rose', some freedom!


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 18 June 2003 03:25 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Two kinds: positive and negative.

Ask Isiah Berlin.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 18 June 2003 09:34 AM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
from reading some of the replies it seems apparent that death is the only freedom many of u will ever know
From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Deception
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4101

posted 18 June 2003 09:48 AM      Profile for Deception     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Courage:


Otherwise, it is very easy to simply fall into an equal identification/addiction to the 'ascetic self', the controlling personality who thinks they have it all figured out...


i think u have misconstrued a few things, the ascetic lives the reclusive life of quiet contemplation. the ascetic doesnt retain a moral condescension believing he has it "figured out"; he just removes himself from the mass distractions that daily capital accumulating existence presents us with.


From: front lines of the revolution | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 18 June 2003 10:25 AM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"He alone is free who lives with free consent under the entire guidance of reason." (Baruch Spinosa)

This is probably the closes we come to freedom.


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 18 June 2003 10:43 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deception:
from reading some of the replies it seems apparent that death is the only freedom many of u will ever know

I don't believe it's your or anyone's place to make a comment like that about others.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
paxamillion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2836

posted 18 June 2003 10:45 AM      Profile for paxamillion   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
"There is the overcoming of suffering." --- The Buddha

That's even closer than Spinoza's view, IMO.


From: the process of recovery | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Courage
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3980

posted 18 June 2003 11:41 AM      Profile for Courage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Deception:

i think u have misconstrued a few things, the ascetic lives the reclusive life of quiet contemplation. the ascetic doesn’t retain a moral condescension believing he has it "figured out"; he just removes himself from the mass distractions that daily capital accumulating existence presents us with.


Perhaps I've misconstrued some things. However, there are any number of self-proclaimed ascetics out there who claim much moral high ground for themselves. Look at the Christian monastic tradition and how it deterioriated into formalism for one example.

What I've tried to accomplish is to shift the discussion out of the abstract and into the particular problems of walking the 'Way' of any
Search: in other words, I'm trying not to talk about 'THE ascetic' but about being 'an ascetic'.
Simply walking away from 'the world' and contemplating is not necessarily going to bring one any level of spiritual freedom. There are many pitfalls along the way, and one's self-centered ego finds many ways to recast and reshape itself. It is somewhat of a chameleon, which is why we very rarely can glimpse it in all its falsity - because often where we are analysing 'it' from is just another of our myriad I's running around inside. It is easy to identify with the new 'ascetic' personality as something 'new' when it is simply a recasting of the multifarious ego in another guise.

Do you know the allegory in Plato about sailing a ship - where all the hands try to grab the wheel at once and steer the ship in their own direction?This is not a bad image of our inner state. And, as careful contemplation and meditation may demonstrate to you, no amount of 'quiet renunciation of capital' will necessarily calm the raging waters underneath.


More than just material renunciation, most 'ascetic' ways teach that there must be an inner renunciation, not just of desires for goods and materiality, but of personalities, thoughts, negative emotions, and more which we cling to even more firmly than any particular 'capital'. In fact, we find that below the attachment to 'things' and 'wealth' there is a much bigger monster waiting for us, and that is our undisciplined and largely negative emotional attachment to a unified self - you know, that person we call 'I' and present with all kinds of fantastic qualities (unity, choice, the ability to 'do') which, upon closer examination, 'I' hardly have at all due to the din of conflicting voices speaking from different parts of my mind, emotions, and body. It is a common error, and I speak from experience - to take certain of these I's - one's that please us and make us feel like we have achieved 'asceticism' and canonise them as my 'better self'. Its a hard lesson.

So what I'm trying to say is that renunciation in and of itself is merely a TOOL to see 1) One's level of physical dependence on food, shelter, etc. 2) One's emotional dependence on friends, family, certain relationships. 3) To use the above to create a 'stress' or 'friction' within one's self in order that the resulting energy might be steered toward inner change. If we become identified with 'renunciation' we have simply 're-attached' ourselves to something which is just a method and not 'us' at all.


From: Earth | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca