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Author Topic: Putting a face to the past
clockwork
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posted 01 May 2002 02:45 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

A face only a Neanderthal mother could love.

From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 May 2002 03:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow. It's so odd to sit and stare at something that looks like a photograph and think, "That person with that very face never existed. That person is not a person."

So strange. Sorry, I know that's not what this is about, but does anyone else ever get a strange feeling when they look at something that looks like a photograph of a real person, and you think you can see personality and mood and emotion and expression on their face - and it's actually non-existent as a person and never did exist, and that expression on that face never existed even though we seem to have a record of it? Holy run on sentence. I'm just trying to describe the really odd feeling I get looking at that picture and failing dismally. So I'll stop now.

(Yes I know, neanderthals existed, and it's based on the bones from the neanderthal, but still - that particular face never existed.)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 01 May 2002 03:44 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you mean it's freaky that that picture is so lifelike?

The mind is hypersensitive to facial recognition.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 01 May 2002 04:35 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You could walk past that kid in any mall, and not notice anything odd, except maybe that s/he could use a comb to better effect.
Either it's prettied up a bit, or we haven't changed much.

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 01 May 2002 05:08 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder where the bone fragments upon which this model was made came from. For some reason I think it was Iberia. This face has a definite North-European cast about it. Why couldn't it look more "Mediterranean?"

I might be niggling here, but I find it strange that a south European should have such Germanic features. Then again, who knows what sort of human migrations occurred before recorded history.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 01 May 2002 05:18 PM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
cmpb???

Forensic, ahh. . . I forget what they are called, can take a skull and reconstruct the face to almost 100% accuracy. The face could be real if the bone fragements are all from one skull.


From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 01 May 2002 05:37 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
cmpb???

Comb, perhaps . Though perhaps among young people these days, this hairstyle would be considered rad, or phat, or whatever it is they do say nowadays (blessmewhatdotheyteachthemattheseschools youngwhippersnapperswhyinmyday, etc. & so forth).

You might be thinking of forensic reconstruction. But it's somewhat less than 100% accurate. There's considerable guesswork involved, and an unavoidable amount of subjectivity, for example in determining hair, eye and skin colour, or in the shape of the nose.

Joyce Carol Oates has a good story based on this very subject in the latest Harper's.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 01 May 2002 05:51 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

quote:
The high point comes with a reconstruction of the face. Programs from animation studios allow users to add skin and hair to the model skull of a Neanderthal, but this would be too easy. The art of science requires that fantasy be subordinated to plausible assumptions. Nevertheless, there is no proof for the central formula underlying this procedure -- that the skull and appearance of a Neanderthal are related in a manner equivalent to the relation between skull and appearance in Homo sapiens. The Homo sapiens' side of that equation can be worked out empirically and in great detail, using models of actual people. The face of Homo sapiens is then "morphed" onto the skull of the Neanderthal, as Zollikofer says in best computerese

I find it tough to read the article. But, I assume that it looks Germanic (it doesn't look quite Germanic to me.. there is something odd about it) is because they were using Germanic people to start with in the morphing process. For instance, the lips and nose are not made up of bones, so you can't reconstruct that with any accuracy. I'm guessing about that, of course, but I assume that is what the quote is saying.

I was also under the impression that Neanderthals lived in the colder climates of Northern Europe.


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Trinitty
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posted 01 May 2002 05:52 PM      Profile for Trinitty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Present day humans did not evolve from Neandertals.

Their bone density is different and their skulls were bigger.

Researchers think that we may have come from the same trunk, but the branches went in opposite directions, similar to the huge humanoid bipeds that roamed the planet during the same time frame.

Neandertals resembled early humans but were quite different. Some scientists think that our ancestors fought with them and eventually "wiped them out" because they could not concieve of projectile weapons.

While it's theorized that early humans may have interbred with Neandertals, they are not thought to be "early us".

http://makeashorterlink.com/?M23E6259
http://www.becominghuman.org/


From: Europa | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 01 May 2002 09:23 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry about the comb typo. I've fixed it.

I have seen some forensic reconstruction and they're usually pretty good, though accuracy does depend on how much of the skull is available. They're more accurate with an older subject, since the bones are harder. In a specimen this young, a lot of cartilege has been lost. Colouring is mostly guess-work: if some hair has been preserved, it gives a clue to pigmentation. Skin texture and eye-colour are entirely done by extrapolation.

The fact that H sapiens didn't descend from Neanderthal man isn't all that significant: the broken branches also came from the same tree.
It's kind of funny that Neanderthal had a bigger brain (probably) than any of the successful candidates. But it's not really significant, since brain-pan size and brain mass vary hugely in modern humans, with little or no corelation to intelligence.

There was a beautiful sf story about a Neanderthal child brought into the future and sent back again (the nurse went, too). It was made into an excellent a tv drama (Outer Limits?). Memory fails on details. The point i'm groping for is that the child was a LOT uglier than this one, and i found it more believable. I wonder if that's because we generally prefer to think of them as uglier than us.
Also a wonderful (and probably unfindable) novel by (?)William Golding called 'The Inheritors'.

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]

[ May 01, 2002: Message edited by: nonesuch ]


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 01 May 2002 10:09 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm seeing a picture...

Not to worry. University lit courses still carry The Inheritors. I have seen many used copies.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 01 May 2002 10:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arch Stanton and nonesuch:

Dr. Isaac Asimov's "The Ugly Little Boy".

(and thus speaks the person whose babble handle is derived from another Asimov series)


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
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posted 02 May 2002 01:43 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That brilliant and annoying sob had some fine moments.

Is the kid in the picture probable or not?


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 02 May 2002 03:29 AM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I brought up the possibility that the features may reflect the desires of the scientists rather than what a Neanderthal actually looked like because I recently saw on TV a similar model made of the head of Jesus. This model was based on all mod. sci. evidence, of course.

Rather than looking like a rock star, as per the tradition down at yer Bible supply store, the model reconstruction of Jesus looked like one of Arafat's guards in the Ramallah compound.


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 May 2002 09:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not only that, but I'll bet he probably wasn't pale or sickly-thin either, because he was a carpenter and was probably quite built. He was extremely charismatic, so was probably a lot more striking-looking. And yes, I would be willing to bet that he had a more middle-eastern complexion and hair colouring than the blond, blue-eyed cherub colouring that so many western versions of him seem to portray.

I was reading a book by Robertson Davies where one of the characters was a university researcher whose big thing was to correlate physical body type to personality traits, and there was a neat idea there. If, as we believe, Jesus was a perfect man on earth, and you accept the idea that personality traits and physical types are correlated (not sure I do, but anyhow), then Jesus would likely have been a mesomorph (strong, muscular body) with handsome, or at least striking, looks. After all, if he was perfect, and the body correlates to the personality or spirit, then his body would likely have been pretty close to perfect too.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 May 2002 11:28 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
ROWR!

What captivates in that photo is the eyes -- so big. Don't anthropologists speculate (surely a wink needed there -- but maybe there's evidence) that we are hard-wired to respond generously to outsized eyes, in order to ensure that we will nurture our young?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SamL
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posted 02 May 2002 11:39 AM      Profile for SamL     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Off topic, but when I load this thread, I discovered that the website behind the picture has attached cookies to it, and is trying to get data off of all of us. (www.faz.com/. . . getdata)
From: Cambridge, MA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 02 May 2002 12:04 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Not only that, but I'll bet he probably wasn't pale or sickly-thin either, because he was a carpenter and was probably quite built. He was extremely charismatic, so was probably a lot more striking-looking.

So you're a fan of so-called "muscular Christianity," Michelle?

Thread drift alert: is there any independent, contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus? The Gospels were written long after he was supposed to have lived.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
grasshopper
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posted 02 May 2002 02:54 PM      Profile for grasshopper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The Nag Hammadi texts found by an young bedouin in a cave not far from where the dead sea scrolls were found begins something like "these are the words of jesus of .... taken down while he still lived by Thomas the twin brother of jesus " (obviously at least a second edition ) They are comprised entirely of parables many of which found their way into the new testament .
From: henry dargers attic | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Victor Von Mediaboy
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posted 02 May 2002 03:07 PM      Profile for Victor Von Mediaboy   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1273000/1273594.stm

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html

http://members.aol.com/FLJOSEPHUS/testimonium.htm

http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: Victor Von MediaBoy ]


From: A thread has merit only if I post to it. So sayeth VVMB! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 02 May 2002 03:38 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Right, thanks for these comments and links. Interesting.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
clockwork
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posted 02 May 2002 04:24 PM      Profile for clockwork     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

God, I am your Son.


Jesus, the short, fat bald man

[ May 02, 2002: Message edited by: clockwork ]


From: Pokaroo! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 02 May 2002 04:52 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's the guy!!
From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 02 May 2002 04:58 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's the guy who turned your perfectly good water into mediocre wine?

That's the guy who held the unauthorized picnic for 5000 in your backyard?

That's the guy who sent your herd of pigs hurtling over a cliff?

We've been after him a while. Supposedly lives in a cave. Every time we go, the stone's been rolled away, and nobody's there.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arch Stanton
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posted 02 May 2002 09:56 PM      Profile for Arch Stanton     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Nag Hammadi texts found by an young bedouin in a cave not far from where the dead sea scrolls...

Sorry, 'hopper, but according to my copy of the Nag Hammadi Library, the texts were found by Egyptian peasants near the village of al-Qasr, along the Upper Nile, (just north ot Thebes and the Valley of the Kings).


From: Borrioboola-Gha | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
grasshopper
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posted 02 May 2002 10:42 PM      Profile for grasshopper     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arch Stanton
Thanks for the clarification .
I really should be more careful .
Must have got my scrolls crossed .
The memory is the first thing to go . (laughs)

From: henry dargers attic | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged

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