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Author Topic: Geomythology; early warnings of disasters
Contrarian
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posted 07 December 2005 01:37 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Scientists using old stories to figure out which areas have had repeated disasters.
quote:
...The area sits over massive fault lines whose dangers have been highlighted by a startling new scientific discipline that combines Earth science studies and analysis of ancient legends. This is geomythology, and it is transforming our knowledge of earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis, says the journal Science.

According to the discipline's proponents, violent geological upheavals may be more frequent than was previously suspected.

Apart from the 'lost' Seattle earthquake, geomythology has recently revealed that a volcano in Fiji, thought to be dormant, is active, a discovery that followed geologists' decision to follow up legends of a mountain appearing overnight...


What astonishes me is that they haven't been doing this long since. Did they think local myths were just complete fiction?

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 07 December 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
Scientists using old stories to figure out which areas have had repeated disasters. What astonishes me is that they haven't been doing this long since. Did they think local myths were just complete fiction?
Most Europeans have always dismissed FN oral tradition as fiction. One interesting critical discussion of this can be found in Red Earth - White Lies, Native Americas and the myth of Scientific Fact. Vine, Deloria, JR. Scribner Press, 1995.

[ 07 December 2005: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 07 December 2005 02:04 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Contrarian:
What astonishes me is that they haven't been doing this long since. Did they think local myths were just complete fiction?
I'm certain I've heard of this before, such as a suspected 16th century earthquake being corraborated through both the accounts of the earthquake amongst West Coast native peoples, and a tsunami in Japanese historical records.

From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
charlieM
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posted 07 December 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for charlieM     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Westerns may be stereotyped as not believing in myths as fact, besides of-course things like that Great Flood, and Atlantis. Most societies are self-centred aren't they? People have turned myth into historic fact often, I've even seen discovery specials on it. I guess the only difference now is that they have assigned it a specific dicsapline...
From: hamilton | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 07 December 2005 07:30 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oral traditions have a way of becoming distorted over time. Reports of some long-ago disasters become changed beyond all recognition, i.e., the Great Flood, others get forgotten altogether, i.e. the eruption at Santorini circa 1500 BC.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 07 December 2005 08:17 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, they may be distorted, or at least the details may be lost, but it is still possible that the myths are based on actual events.

The scientists need to be able to distinguish between a description of an actual physical event and whatever explanations and significance people might attach to it afterwards.

I just read somewhere that some argue Thera's eruption could explain the 10 plagues that hit Egypt in the Old Testament [sorry I forget what website]. There was a pillar of smoke showing the Israelites what direction to take out of Egypt; the website objects that the smoke from Thera would have been in the wrong direction. But I say, what if somebody remembered that a pillar of smoke had been seen, and without caring what direction it was in, they attached the meaning that it was there as a guide for the Israelites? You cannot dismiss the possibility that the smoke from Thera was seen and remembered, though the story was distorted for the storyteller's purposes. [I have no idea if there is any valid connection between Thera/Santorini and the 10 plagues in Egypt]

[ 07 December 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 07 December 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A) It's not even so much what Makwa said, but just that there's no timescale involved, so that ethnohistory has remained within the scope of anthropology, not history. Historians (still, despite all our efforts) deal with dates, and 'we got washed away back in the days way back' doesn't let them pin a nice numerical year-date on that event, so it gets swept under the rug.
B) It all sounds very interesting, but note well that, again, the only event they're able to safely assign consequences to is one that was noted by another society that had recorded historical documents, namely Japan.

There are a massive and complex variety of ethnohistorical accounts from various FN's. I dealt with West Coast groups myself, and in some of their early oral histories, there are accounts that are suggestive of glaciers, land bridges, volcanism and refugiae, suggesting that ethnohistorical accounts from that region might (BIG *might*) extend as far back as the first settlers arriving from Siberia. BUT, proving that beyond any kind of scepticism is another matter entirely. For the record I'm quite willing to believe that some of these tales are in fact that old (and remember we're talking about tales that have lasted on the order of 10,000 years here).

The real question, beyond the supercoolness factor of having oral histories extending back that are, though, is what benefit or advantage these tales have for us in the present day. The linked article makes it sound like these tales will somehow keep San Francisco from sliding into the sea when the Big One comes. Bull. That being said, they're an amazing (potential) link to an incredibly distant past, and if there's some way of demonstrating their survival to that sort of time depth, it'll be a revolutionary impact on ethnohistory the world over.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 07 December 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, as you say, historians need documents to help confirm stories; but scientists may have better luck by looking for physical evidence. Still, you are left with some speculation.

Maybe there is evidence in pictographic art as well. Some prairie tribes kept winter counts, drawn on buffalo robes, with a picture of something for each year. The picture was a memory aid for a description of something memorable about every year.

After the tsunami, there was a story that on one island the people knew to run inland as soon as they saw the water being sucked out to sea before the tsunami hit; based on stories handed down of the effect of Krakatoa about 120 years before I think.

Oh yes, and there were Helge Instadt and Anne Stine, who used the sagas to help find L'Anse aux Meadows.

[ 07 December 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]

[ 07 December 2005: Message edited by: Contrarian ]


From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 07 December 2005 09:24 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
For the record I'm quite willing to believe that some of these tales are in fact that old (and remember we're talking about tales that have lasted on the order of 10,000 years here).

10,000 is pushing the envelope I think. I'm not sure that anybody has come up with convincing evidence of oral traditions stretching back more than a few centuries. Let's say, 1500 years tops with significant events before that time being forgotten entirely. Remember, we're talking about an exclusively oral tradition. Even petroglyphs aren't likely to withstand more than a few centuries except under extraordinary circumstances.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 07 December 2005 09:24 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
For the record I'm quite willing to believe that some of these tales are in fact that old (and remember we're talking about tales that have lasted on the order of 10,000 years here).

10,000 is pushing the envelope I think. I'm not sure that anybody has come up with convincing evidence of oral traditions stretching back more than a few centuries. Let's say, 1500 years tops with significant events before that time being forgotten entirely. Remember, we're talking about an exclusively oral tradition. Even petroglyphs aren't likely to withstand more than a few centuries except under extraordinary circumstances.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 07 December 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sigh. It's deja vu all over again.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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