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Do you paddle the children when they get out of line? Well, of course, not the girls — but do you think it's okay to use physical discipline on the boys? Do you think auntie has an opinion on this?

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The father says that he and his brothers were paddled when they really got out of line, and it didn't cause any problems for them.

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I mean, I suppose there is a value simply in writing publicly about the fact that some people still think that boys should learn to take it like a man ...

Pretty obviously, no one here thinks that that is a good idea.

- time-outs
- privilege removal (buh-bye game boy)
- grounding

Of course, my child's a hellion, so perhaps these aren't foolproof. But he was a hellion when I used to think that spanking was okay, too, and this way, the experience is less trauamtic for parent and child. And your arm doesn't get nearly as tired.

[ 04 July 2005: Message edited by: Granola Girl ]

People that do it in a state of not knowing what else to do but are actually opposed to it are people that I have some sympathy for.

He added that of course it will be mandatory that mothers only beat their sons and fathers only beat their daughters; no same-sex beating will be tolerated.

Further, he stipulated, the CPC would guarantee that parents only beat children with traditional materials, such as willow switches, cane rods, wooden spoons or leather belts. There will be no new-fangled devices such as electrical cords or fan belts allowed.

My daughter-in-law's ten year old daughter calls me "grandma" and I refer to her as my granddaughter, not a step-granddaughter. She is a very difficult child and I think she's that way for a number of reasons not the least of which is she is so damned smart she can think rings around most of the people she encounters. She pouts, she sulks, and always does it where it cannot but be noticed. Complete with sighing and tears and sniffles. She has been such a total pain in the ass I was starting to dread having her come, all I saw was a child who was on a huge power-and-control trip. She was here at Hallowe'en and something didn't please her and the performance started. Grandma suggested she had all the right in the world to behave in any way she wanted but the rest of us were under no obligation to have to submit to it so maybe this kid should go to the spare bedroom and pout there. She invited me to go fuck myself. I slapped her face and told her if she EVER ran her mouth at me again, in my own house, with her belly full of my food she might need an ambulance.

She has not pulled her number in my house since. She is pleasant. I make sure I am pleasant. Her behaviour at school has not improved. But here, she has bumped into the brick wall marked "limit".

Maybe my hand moved quickly because I grew up terrified of offending any adult, especially the certifiable wing nut who was my sperm donor. I have had my nose broken several times by him, I have had my cheekbones broken, I have had belt lash marks up and down my body, including my face, I have had black eyes and twice been knocked unconscious. All for my "own good" you understand. And my brother was treated worse.

And maybe one day we'll know other, better ways to demonstrate limits, to set boundaries, to show discipline and to instill respect but I see precious little sign of any of it right now.

I have been in schools recently and heard kids tell the teacher to fuck off, tell the teacher to go to hell, tell a teacher to get lost, faggot. I have had a principal tell me "our hands are tied", say "there's nothing we can do any more.".

My son has considered home schooling and decided against it for a number of reasons. I have held out against home schooling but as the "girlfriends" approach school age I begin to wonder all over again.

I talk to teachers, often, and hear how frustrated they are. Maybe they always have been. I've heard horror stories about kids who were strapped in school until their palms bled, etc., and can honestly say I was never strapped and never saw any kid whose hands were damaged by strapping. I admit I'd probably go ballistic if someone strapped the girlfriends. Double standards, I guess, exist everywhere.

But Joan has been spanked several times, for the same thing each time... she would not stop scribbling on the walls. Would NOT stop climbing up on the counter in the bathroom. Time and time I tried what has been suggested here and time and time she laughed and just went back to do it again. So she got spanked. The climbing stopped, the scribbling was done in hidden places. Emily has been spanked once. Three on the bum for being deliberately cruel to an animal. She was hitting the dog with a stick and laughing...so I gave her two on the backside and asked "did that hurt?". "yes" "well, it hurts the dog, too. You hurt my dog, I hurt you.". No further incidences of her being cruel to the dog.

If she winds up on the psychiatrists couch because of it, well, I guess I'll pick up the tab.

We have a culture where for most of recorded history children were spanked, even beaten. We aren't going to change that overnight. We have nothing set up to replace what most of us learned the hard and painful way. And I don't think demonizing people for NOT knowing how to "handle" their kids is going to help anything. I don't think someone who spanks a kid and sends it to it's room to think things over deserves to wind up in handcuffs or deserves to be equated to The Great Satan.

I am sometimes bitterly amused at how those who believe the Bible is the absolute utter word of God then decry spanking when the Old Testament is full of things like Fathers, discipline now thy sons and let not thy heart refrain from their weeping...an ungrateful child is as the adders tooth... and worse...

and it is, perhaps , because of the Word Of God that so many people for so many years thought it was their duty to spank, slap, hammer... but I do know I see more bratty behaviour now than I saw even fifteen years ago...and I do not think those bratty kids are happy. They do not have boundaries and without boundaries the world must seem a very big and very scarey place.

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We're actually at what is only the start of a huge cultural shift. I would suggest we don't yet have any perceivable alternative for "spare the rod and spoil the child". I ask you to please pay attention to "perceivable" because if a solution isn't seen to be such by those involved, then it really isn't a solution.

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We are in a cultural shift on many issues including finding alternatives to violence within the family between adults. I think we are a little bit more behind the mark when it comes to children rather than adults. I know some will dispute that but the reality is that if a woman is being struck in public I believe someone is more likely to comment, to call the police, or to intervene in some way that doesn't involve changing their own physical safety. When we see a child slapped in safeway or zellers rarely do we intervene.

To use the logic is that the person perpetrating the act has to believe that there is a solution or there isn't one certainly is potentially dangerous. I am sure that many women are struck by men who feel that they have exhausted other avenues as well. The deficits of a perpetrator to find a solution doesn't make the act less wrong.

Teachers are expected to manage classrooms of behaviourally complex children without violence.

We expect prison guards to use violence within a certain context and they are to document any such incident.

Any restrictive procedure used against a psychiatric patient needs to be documented and supported.

A bigger threat though, according to my eldest, was "wait till your father gets home". We both laughed at that because I can't ever remember doing anything in that situation.

But they were always afraid.

For the record, I never used corporal punishment. Maybe because I'm enlightend. Maybe because I'm sexist. Maybe because I was brought up never to hit a girl or woman.

Mostly, I think, because I hate acting in anger, and hitting a child cold blooded is...just creepy.

My dad was disciplined with a Barber's strop, which my Grandfather kept hanging in the kitchen. My brother and I were disciplined with the belt, until we got old enough to take a punch. I think my brother is smarter than I. I don't think he ever got punched. It took one for me to smarten up-- a nice little shot to the shoulder that sent me across the room and into the couch-- harmless but effective.

Of course, I didn't turn out normal or "Okay". But my abnormalities and lack of okayness isn't due to corporal punishment.

I can't think of a time I was disciplined that, to this day, I don't think I didn't deserve.

I was reading the Du Plessix
Gray biography of de Sade a few years ago, and the author talked about possible origins for de Sade's masochism and, well, Sadism. He spent a short time in a school run by the Jesuits, and Du Plessix Gray uncovered guidlines on corporal punishment from that era.

The 18th century Jesuits, as we might imagine, were not slouches when it came to flogging the kids. But even they knew that it had diminishing returns, and that some kids didn't respond to it in the desired manner.

I'm conflicted on the issue, actually. I see adults today that make me wonder if they would be better off if they'd got a whoopin' from time to time as kids.

And there's probably as many who'd be better off today if they got less whoopin's as kids.

yeah, I know, edited to correct Du Plessix
Gray's name spelling.

[ 04 July 2005: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]

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Originally posted by Hephaestion:
He added that of course it will be mandatory that mothers only beat their sons and fathers only beat their daughters; no same-sex beating will be tolerated.

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The Criminal Code allows parents to use "reasonable" force on a child, and I was glad when the Supreme Court defined what that was. I'm assuming there is a consensus on this board, for instance, that if a child runs out onto the street, that the parent/caregiver is within his/her rights to physically restrain the child from so doing?

There are other situations where violence is condoned. Police officers, for instance, are forbidden from assaulting people, but if they have to restrain someone who is terribly violent or disorderly, people accept that the officers would use a level of force not otherwise condoned.

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
Given that approximately 3 of 4 parents still spank...

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Given that you totally made that stat up...

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I'm assuming there is a consensus on this board, for instance, that if a child runs out onto the street, that the parent/caregiver is within his/her rights to physically restrain the child from so doing?

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That's not spanking and its not discipline.

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What it boils down to for me, is that children are much smaller than adults, and that when you spank, fundamentally you are hitting because you don't like what the child is doing.

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Which doesn't make it a good thing to do.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: Scott Piatkowski ]

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

What it boils down to for me, is that children are much smaller than adults...

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...and that is exactly the reason why I never spank or slap or hit my kids.

Parents who spank only do it because they can get away with it. Kids are the perfect victims - think about that.

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A look at the historical evolution of child-rearing confronts us with this sobering truth: that the history of childhood is virtually — and almost universally — a history of child-abuse. (See my previous article in Sydney’s Child — May 1999.) Difficult as it may seem to comes to terms with, this tradition of cruelty and neglect towards children haunts even our recent collective past (and to a lesser extent our present). There are profound ramifications to this sad revelation about historical childhood. As the veil of denial about past and present child-abuse is lifted, we are collectively challenged to face a bitter conclusion: that almost all of us are either former battered or neglected children, or descendants of battered or neglected children. Surely this helps us to understand why human history has been so unrelentingly blighted by horror, tyranny and war. We now know quite conclusively that harsh or neglectful parenting is a major risk factor for delinquency. It stands to reason then that the same conditions on a large scale, might move entire nations towards a greater acceptance of violent and oppressive means of social ‘discipline’, such as war or dictatorship. On the other hand, the steady improvements in child-care we have witnessed in the last two hundred years have produced some astonishing socio-political advances internationally.

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[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: brebis noire ]

How does it sound?

"Given that approximately 3 of 4 husbands still hit their wives, I don't see criminalising the behaviour and calling the cops on every husband who has ever slapped as being effective."

"I'm conflicted on the issue, actually. I see wives today that make me wonder if they would be better off if they'd got a whoopin' from time to time early in the marriage."

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Originally posted by ann cameron
And please know, that if I don't agree fully with what you say or write that doesn't mean I think you are "wrong". We just see things through different eyes.

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Your story was a bit creepy. I'm not going to bother condemning you, you already feel justified in perpetuating the violence you learned, and nothing I say will change that. Whether you are "wrong" or not, is not that important. Every parent or caregiver has a choice between violence and non-violence, and their choice goes to the root of the kind of person they are.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: RP. ]

On the spanking kids thing, I think resorting to violence is a pretty lame way of teaching. On the other hand, I certainly do not believe that every spanking parent is a bad one.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: EFA ]

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Originally posted by Alix:
I don't think RB's saying that. He's taking the earlier quote and substituting wife for children to show how it sounds.

On the other hand, in my grade 11 Sociology class (11 years ago?) in a discussion on corporal punishment, the teacher asked all those who had never been spanked by their parents to raise their hands, and I was the only one out of a class of 20 or so that could.

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Sorry. Wasn't reading carefully enough.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: EFA ]

As for whether or not they can spank me when I get old and feeble...if I get much older or more feeble than I am now I might look for an ice floe and go sit on it... and, for sure, if I start marking up their walls with permanent black marker or throwing my food I might wind up with my diapered arse paddled.

Apropos of absolutely nothing at all it is TEEMING down rain in Tahsis this morning. Some dirty bird stole the June sunshine and now July seems to be turning into a wash out , too. And if I find out who, someone is in for some serious paddling.

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Originally posted by anne cameron:
Do any of you have any anecdotes of things which you have done which worked well?

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The host made what I thought was a brilliant suggestion: when you're cleaning your son up after an accident, make sure the washcloth you use is cold. Rinse it in cold water rather than warm. Just enough to be a minor negative experience that he'll associate with the accidents.

The thing, though, is that there seems to be some expectation that people automatically know how to parent, simply by virtue of the fact that they've had a child. Some people just seem to naturally be good with kids, others (like me) need to be taught. And that's fine. The course I mentioned is being offered again soon, and I've noticed a great resistance amongst many parents to enrolling -- and these are parents who are having a difficult time with their kids, and despairing over it. It seems to be considered to be a slight on their competance or worth as a parent to even think about taking part. It brings the general resistance to counselling/psychology to mind. Shame, really, but perhaps the popularity of Super Nanny will turn that tide.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]

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Given that you totally made that stat up...

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In 1994: 70% of American adults agreed that it is "sometimes necessary to discipline a child with a good, hard spanking."

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Originally posted by Scott Piatkowski:
I'll withdraw the accusation that you made it up (although it's still possible that you did, then looked for something to back it up when challenged), but that's not at all what you claimed. You wrote that 3 out of 4 parents still spank, not that they thought it was morally defensible for others to do so. Moreover, an eleven year old stat from a different country doesn't prove much of anything.

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It seems to be considered to be a slight on their competance or worth as a parent to even think about taking part.

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I agree with that - it's how it is generally perceived. It's a very humbling thing.

We've taken an advanced baby massage class which was an offshoot of a class we didn't attend on reducing crying. Best best best course I've ever taken. We've also taken baby sign. When they get older we plan to take other things.

You know you'd think that a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, or any other professional that never updated their knowledge or wanted to learn was lousy at their job and if you saw a professional respond crossly to questioning you'd think they were marginal at best yet, somehow, it's seen as acceptable that parents should never be questioned without it being a personal insult and that nobody ever needs to learn more about it. How did we ever get here?

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The host made what I thought was a brilliant suggestion: when you're cleaning your son up after an accident, make sure the washcloth you use is cold. Rinse it in cold water rather than warm. Just enough to be a minor negative experience that he'll associate with the accidents.

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VOE: Bad advice. What then happens is your child fails to report their accidents in the hope of avoiding the punishment - which is what that is, however benign - and then you have some pretty serious rashes to deal with that cannot be cleaned with water at all. There is enough anxiety around toilet training, IME, it's turned out to be a lot more effective to simply be supportive.

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Thank you Hailey for drawing the parallel between child abuse and spousal abuse. All you people who think it's OK for me to slap my kids when I've run out of patience and ideas, is it also OK to slap my wife in the same circumstances?
How does it sound?

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Sorry, but I think that this sounds as silly as saying that the next time my wife rips the leaves off our tree, she is gonna get one serious time-out. I might even send her to her room with no PSII priviledges for a week! I see what you are saying, but I would not equate spanking a child to beating your wife. You are expected to discipline your child, but certainly not your wife.

While I believe that other methods should be tried before one resorts to spanking, I do think
that for some kids and in some situations, spanking can be a useful punishment. Kids are not equally socializeable and they might engage in behaviour from time to time that deserves spanking. I will use biting another child as an example where it may be effective.

Because I was taught as a child that violence is a acceptable method for behavior modification and by beating him, I could remove his abusive behavior towards his wife.

Sure, my parents sometimes hit me while their anger was fresh; sometimes they made the threat, mulled their anger for a while, then hit me even harder. Fresh or stale, anger is anger. And even as a kid I could see that the reason my parents were doing it was that they were angry and it made them feel good to be able to release their anger by taking it out on a little kid with no right or ability to defend myself. (Indeed, the hitting only stopped when I was 16 and hit back.)

They would relent if we cried (I guess seeing the pain they inflicted made them feel better), but foolishly, I held back the tears as much as I could anyway -- thereby earning more frequent and severe beatings than my sib.

So no, even though on the whole I would say my parents loved us and tried to be good parents, I wouldn't agree that spanking can be harmless: I'm not sure I've ever been able to truly forgive them that. I had same-age friends who were never hit by their parents -- to my eyes, they seemed better-adjusted than me & my sib. What message does it send a kid to say that the people who love them most in the world can hit the kid whenever they get mad, for any reason they want?

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Corporal punishment and other fear based discipline strategies seem self-defeating to me. They completely close most of your lines of communication, and usually you just end up with evasive and untruthful children. Be thankful for the wilful, smart-mouthed child, at least you know a good chunk of what she or he is feeling and doing and so can deal openly with it.

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Not only that, you have to ask why you want children to learn to avoid negative behaviours. Do you want children to avoid negative behaviours out of fear of punishment, or do you want them to avoid negative behaviours because those behaviours are wrong?

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It seems as though along with new methods, some parents expect immediate results, and if three time-outs doesn't turn their child into an angel (and I've seen parents, especially when this occurs in public places, give up on a punishment as soon as the child starts to make a scene) then time-outs don't work, and they need to resort to something else.

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Very well put.

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It seems to me that too many parents are afraid of being labeled bad parents for the wrong reasons. The effectiveness of corporal punishment is due to the parent being willing to follow through with discipline, without caring what somebody watching might think of them, because the child is not going to be able to disuade a parent from punishing them in public. For many other parents who are worried about being seen as 'bad parents' as soon as their child starts to throw a tantrum in public, they will do whatever they can to stop the child from making a scene, which most often involves bribing the child.

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Because I was taught as a child that violence is a acceptable method for behavior modification and by beating him, I could remove his abusive behavior towards his wife.

Now how was I taught that as a child? Why by my parents beating me to modify my behavior

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and physical punishment from their parents reinforces it.

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You are expected to discipline your child, but certainly not your wife.

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and physical punishment from their parents reinforces it.

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Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Kids seem to have a natural ability to sniff out a contradiction from authority figures.

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And they do a good job.

I think one of the problems with disciplining children is that caregivers tend to assume (albeit subconsciously) that children are not particularly smart. I think in many cases they are smarter than adults and that the way to discipline them effectively is to acknowledge that.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: Aristotleded24 ]

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I would prefer alternative methods simply because I dislike violence, but I often think the alternative methods are ineffective.

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Being hit/spanked/screamed at/threatened aggressively only made me sneakier about 'bad' behaviour.

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True enough, but this would apply to any effective punishment. There is nothing unique about spanking in this regard is there?

To use the example of a child biting another child, it seems to me that a calm, rational spanking is in order. I recall a case in Toronto where a little girl supposedly slammed the door on her baby brother's fingers. A spanking will decrease the chances for recidivism.
[Edit ted four spelleeng]

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: Cartman ]

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puzzlic: ...even if parents (like mine) do not hit the kids hard enough to do any physical damage, there is emotional (or, as you put it, spirit) harm...

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Yea, I feel a little clumsy with the terminology. I was trying to convey the effect of kids being "dis-heartened" or "de-moralized" as a result of physical punishment. It affects their enthusiasm for life and the formation of their moral values.
[See also my comment about hypocrisy above.]

Even adults that are beaten can become listless and hopeless. Women who are abused by their partners, for example, are more likely to have multiple abortions as the CMA Journal recently showed. Some such women just "give up" trying to exercise control over their reproductive capacities and don't even try to use contraception.

If I might think aloud here, perhaps the e-motional harm of excessive physical punishment slows the motion of the child's development and personality. Maybe it temporarily stops them from growing [even in conflict situations with us adults when they should still be able to learn and grow] which is their natural state of being.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]

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Originally posted by Raos:

It seems to me that too many parents are afraid of being labeled bad parents for the wrong reasons. The effectiveness of corporal punishment is due to the parent being willing to follow through with discipline, without caring what somebody watching might think of them, because the child is not going to be able to disuade a parent from punishing them in public. For many other parents who are worried about being seen as 'bad parents' as soon as their child starts to throw a tantrum in public, they will do whatever they can to stop the child from making a scene, which most often involves bribing the child.

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
At the same time, bribery, done well, can be a very effective parenting method. It's called "positive reinforcement", but it's basically bribery, and there's nothing really wrong with that.

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Originally posted by Bacchus:
Why, when confronted by my wife-beating cousin in law, did i want to beat hbis head in?

Because I was taught as a child that violence is a acceptable method for behavior modification and by beating him, I could remove his abusive behavior towards his wife.

Now how was I taught that as a child? Why by my parents beating me to modify my behavior

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

Certainly. Relates to the expression, "you attract more flies with honey than with vinegar." I think it's important to distinguish between, "here is a reward for being good," from "okay, I'll buy you a chocolate bar if you would just stop whining."

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When I was in Grade six, I got into a fight with a bully who'd been making my life miserable for about 6 months (punches from behind, pushes etc.) It was the only fight I've ever been in outside of martial arts.

When the vice-principal called my mother to inform her of the fight, her response was 'hallelujah' - the kid had been making my life miserable.

At that point the vp informed her that he'd be giving the both of us the strap. She told him, on no uncertain terms, that he'd do so over her dead body. It was escalating into something very nasty until my father (who is biologically incapable of losing his temper, as far as I can tell) took over and calmed the waters. Later, they took me out for pizza.

I was spanked once when I was pretty young - we had been playing on the highway. It was pretty light spanking, and I suspect it was more a function of my mother's fear than anything. I certainly don't harbour any grudges about it.

That being said, I can say with certainty that I will never spank arborboy for any reason. It just isn't my style to lose my temper in any case, and I just can't imagine ever harming him in any way.

In another sidenote - about 8 years ago arborwoman and I were staying with a family in Guatemala for a few weeks. At the time, Guatemala was considering ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. It took us awhile to realize it, but the family we were staying with were passionately involved in the fight against ratification - precisely because they didn't want to be limited from spanking children who misbehaved. We didn't get along very well fo a variety of reasons, though I've always suspected it was because we came home drunk and giggly at least once a week.

[ 05 July 2005: Message edited by: arborman ]

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Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

Further, a capacity , and even appetite, for violence is probably built in to people. It can certainly be modified by culture, and indeed should be modified by culture. Just because something's natural doesn't make it right. But it's pointless to imagine that if we could somehow all have perfect parenting the next generation would grow up zen masters. They'd be unusually well-adjusted on average, but they still have a heritage of animals that jockey for pack position, sometimes violently. What you use for not being violent is not lack of inclination, but understanding and will.

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To use the example of a child biting another child, it seems to me that a calm, rational spanking is in order. I recall a case in Toronto where a little girl supposedly slammed the door on her baby brother's fingers. A spanking will decrease the chances for recidivism.

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It sounds so lovely and rational and grownup when you say it like that- unfortunately it is anything but.

I have smacked my 3 1/2 year old several times, and every time I feel like shit as I do now thinking about it, because I know I did it out of rage and anger, not in a calm rational state of mind. Now, some may like to pretend that if they wait 5 minutes and smack their child they aren't angry anymore- that's just bullshit.

I feel sick in the stomach knowing that my child is somewhat scared of me when I raise my voice. I can see it in her eyes- she knows what comes next. I don't want my children to fear me. I hate myself for becoming this type of person. I am trying real hard to change this.

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Originally posted by Cartman:
You are expected to discipline your child, but certainly not your wife.

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Expected by whom? I'm sure there are many people who expect men to discipline their wives. In olden days many, many would have expected me to discipline her with a stick no wider than my thumb.

Times change. We modify the behaviour of all of those around us. It's no longer acceptable for us to do so with violence towards other adults, and I think it's downright deplorable to raise a hand against a child.

Yes, it's silly to suggest I give my wife a time out, but you said that, not me. How do adults sort things out? By creating an environment of respect, and by encouraging dialogue. Yes, this is how we treat our 4 year old, like she was an equal, although without the benefit of our wisdom and knowledge. There are those who don't think it's possible, but that's because they underestimate kids and don't accept them as full human beings. It works, I think mostly because we don't just react when she does something we don't approve of--we're conditioning her through positive reinforcement all day long.

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Originally posted by RP.:
How do adults sort things out? By creating an environment of respect, and by encouraging dialogue. Yes, this is how we treat our 4 year old, like she was an equal, although without the benefit of our wisdom and knowledge.

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If you do not the kid will die.

I have known three instances of such behavior. Now all three were boys but a girl who behaves that way needs the same treatment.

That is basicly what the three I know of got--and they stopped. And they lived.

I for one have lived for quite a while ( for a man) and I probably wouldn't have if I had not got mt ass paddled.

This is not about beating with fists or heavy bats.

Sometimes a LITTLE bit of pain IS a loving thing.

I don't think it warped me--just because when I am naughty and my wife spanks my bare bum with her hand I...oh well

I really don't think there is a correlation

[ 29 September 2005: Message edited by: Rumrumrumrum ]

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I probably wouldn't have if I had not got mt ass paddled.

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Originally posted by Rumrumrumrum:
If you have a child who runs out into the street in order to "see" the cars serve and hear the scream of brakes and saying stop that does not stop the behaviour--paddle their ass with a belt or stick (3/8" willow or hazelnut works great)

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Why not just physically grab them and stop them from running into the street? If they insist, why not simply have them sit in a corner, physically restraining them there if necessary?

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Originally posted by ronb:
I wasn't spanked as a child. How on earth did I survive? I should've been run over by a truck long ago.

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Originally posted by ronb:
I wasn't spanked as a child. How on earth did I survive? I should've been run over by a truck long ago.

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:

I would just love for someone to be talking about spanking and say, "I was spanked as a child and I turned out okay," and someone else would respond by saying, "are you sure about that? Most of us aren't."

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Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
The woman training us said that when you talk to children, they are your equals...

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Originally posted by scooter:

Some of the problem with out of controls kids can be linked back to parent treating their kids as equals. Children are not the parents equals.

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Originally posted by scooter:
Some of the problem with out of controls kids can be linked back to parent treating their kids as equals. Children are not the parents equals.

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Originally posted by Rumrumrumrum:

Sometimes a LITTLE bit of pain IS a loving thing.
[ 29 September 2005: Message edited by: Rumrumrumrum ]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Charles:
We have spent our son's entire three years of life teacing him you never hit - ever. It's been one of our most consistent messages, and he is already becoming one of the most thoughtful, empathetic kids I have ever seen. That said he's extremely rambunctious, curious and sometimes a little bratty. Last week he reached into the toilet after he had used it, and I just reacted and swatted his hand away a little. Nothing that ever would have hurt at all, just a little swipe, yet the look of shock on his face is something I will never forget. He just stared at me a minute, with a look of both confusion and hurt and said, with a degree of incredulity, "You hit me Daddy." He wasn't hurt physically but even at three he knew I had been a hypocrite. After years of saying you never hit, I had violated that. These kids are smart. They understand.

My father hit me a lot as a kid and all it taught me was to fear and dislike him. You never hit another human being unless you are physically theatened. The idea of hitting someone smaller than you who has no chance of hitting you back disgusts me. I'm no pacifist, I've been in fights, just not with any little kids. There should be no exceptions to that.

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Now it's different. Children know that parents can't legally spank. So if they're spanked, they feel abused.

I have seen children (a pre-teen and an early-teen) call their mother 'fucking bitch' (seems to be the epithet of choice) and indulge themselves in door-slamming, throwing things, and just walking out of the house when the mother wants them to do their homework or do household chores such as putting out the garbage. Father comes home later and if the child is at home father delivers a lecture which is sullenly received, but usually the children get their way: the homework is not done, the chores are done by the parents (who both work). The parents dread the emotional scenes, which they find exhausting. What is the consequence to the child? Nothing. The mother accepts the child back into the home, just glad, it seems, that the child has not fallen into the hands of someone who will exploit him/her.

The strategies that work best from the children's point of view are noisy violent behavior towards household objects, swearing and cursing at the parents, threatening to leave home (which each has done for up to three days) and hitting the parent when the parent tried to prevent the child from leaving the house.

The strategy that works best from the parents' point of view is bribery. The children do respond to promises of expensive toys and treats.

The mother tells me she dreads coming home from work. (She arrives home first.) She will find the children already there, and engaged in violent and noisy sibling conflicts. She gets hit if she places herself between them to prevent the fighting. Both parents have given up on requiring househhold chores, finding it simpler and more condusive to domestic peace to just do everything themselves.

The parents will survive this. In only a few years, the two kids will be either away at school or working or otherwise gone -- if they find the outside word accepting and rewarding. Otherwise I suppose they may live at home forever.

But I'm wondering how the children will survive.

They have learned that:

- violence and the threat of violence against those who may not retaliate works in terms of getting what you want out of life. The parents may not hit, but the children may hit the parents with no consequences;

- you can get away with violent behavior towards others if they are not in a position to stop you;

- deals are always re-negotiable: if someone says
'if you get your math up to a B by spring break, I'll give you an i-pod (or some other expensive toy of choice)'; but the child can escalate these demands as spring break approaches. The parents will respond favorably to demands for more goodies in return for the same behavior if the child is convincing enough in insisting, at the last minute, that the goal is not worth the effort;

-it is amazing the abuse that people will tolerate just in order to avoid a noisy, unpleasant scene; one can use that knowledge to one's advantage;

- it is not important that one contributes to communal or familial goals and duties, these can be avoided. What is important is getting one's own way, and having maximum personal freedom.

[ 24 October 2005: Message edited by: babthrower ]

See, the problem is that rotten, spoiled brats do not necessarily follow from not spanking. There are other methods of discipline should your child strike you or throw a fit. You can remove priveleges. You can remove belongings. Hell, you can move the furniture out of their rooms and confine them there if need be. It depends on what the kid values most and the extent of the acting out.

And what's the big deal about a slammed door or a punched pillow? Kids are as entitled to their emotions as we are. We may need to help them learn to channel strong emotions like anger appropriately -- but spanking or hitting doesn't further that aim. Setting firm boundaries and enforcing them consistently does.

In my opinion children are people and deserve respect but they should also return that respect. If you have ever been in a situation where you have seen a child, told by the parent to do something five times in a row and the child ignores it, then the parent gets bored asking and just accepts it then perhaps you will see the requirement for more direct forms of discipline. Why are more and more young people binge drinking, getting pregnant, leaving home at a young age etc etc - there is an obvious problem with society.

I believe those with an issue in spanking their kids were either beaten too hard as kids or are just raising kids who do not need to be spanked. But I would like those people not to try to impose their beliefs onto those who believe spanking to be necesary, and do it properly. Children and humans don't change much in one hundred years and society all those years ago was a far safer one than it is today.

Use a mixture of disciplining methods for your kids in my opinion but don't rule out corporal punishment, it doesn't teach kids to hit it teaches kids that bad people get hit, thus not to be bad. And my last point, a kid should only be spanked as a last resort, when the usual procedure of disciplining methods have failed, children need routine. They also shouldn't walk away from the spanking with a white butt.

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Originally posted by SSM:
ZOOT if that is your opinion then that is fine but it is fairly easy to notice your obvious lack of self control. Your post has obviously been written with a great amount of anger and perhaps you lack or lacked some discipline yourself?

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I don't see that in her post at all. She argues rationally and, yes, passionately, but there's nothing wrong with a spirited discussion.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: Left J.A.B. ]

quote:

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Originally posted by SSM:
Use a mixture of disciplining methods for your kids in my opinion but don't rule out corporal punishment, it doesn't teach kids to hit it teaches kids that bad people get hit, thus not to be bad. And my last point, a kid should only be spanked as a last resort, when the usual procedure of disciplining methods have failed, children need routine. They also shouldn't walk away from the spanking with a white butt.

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The part about 'bad people getting hit': it's a bogus argument, from all angles. The part about the white butt - do you mean it should be red, or worse, blue?

quote:

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Originally posted by SSM:
ZOOT if that is your opinion then that is fine but it is fairly easy to notice your obvious lack of self control. Your post has obviously been written with a great amount of anger and perhaps you lack or lacked some discipline yourself?

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My point wasn't written with a great amount of anger. Annoyance, perhaps, but believe me, that wasn't even close to me losing my temper.

And yes, it is absolutely my opinion that not spanking children does not create spoiled brats, or that spanking prevents spoiled brats.

quote:

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Originally posted by SSM:
In my opinion children are people and deserve respect but they should also return that respect. If you have ever been in a situation where you have seen a child, told by the parent to do something five times in a row and the child ignores it, then the parent gets bored asking and just accepts it then perhaps you will see the requirement for more direct forms of discipline. Why are more and more young people binge drinking, getting pregnant, leaving home at a young age etc etc - there is an obvious problem with society.

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I don't think kids are drinking, getting pregnant or leaving home young in any greater numbers than they were 25 years ago when I was a teen. I'd be interested to see if you could support the claim that it's so statistically.

Nevertheless, the kid who's been asked to do something 5 times could well be my kid -- or anybody else's for that matter. They all do it at some time or another. Personally, I'd be more worried about the child that snaps to and does as s/he's told at all times. Regardless, we've found that other consequences than hitting are both effective and appropriate.

I'd also note that I've rarely seen a parent get bored with telling their child to do something and let it go, unless the child was very young. It's far more common to see said hypothetical parent yell and said hypothetical kid.

quote:

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Originally posted by SSM:
I believe those with an issue in spanking their kids were either beaten too hard as kids or are just raising kids who do not need to be spanked. But I would like those people not to try to impose their beliefs onto those who believe spanking to be necesary, and do it properly. Children and humans don't change much in one hundred years and society all those years ago was a far safer one than it is today.

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Do you have a source for that? Because I'm skeptical that it was any safer 100 years ago than it is right now.

As to having an issue with spanking, I was not beaten as a child. I take exception to the insinuation that my parents were brutes and abusers.

I also take exception to the idea that any child NEEDS to be spanked. I think it is more likely that the parent feels out of control and lacks the patience and self-discipline to work at finding it without physically assaulting their offspring.

I don't believe my previous post said anything about imposing the above belief on others. Rather, what I requested was that people stop using examples of inept parenting to bolster the argument for spanking, when the ineptitude has more to do with boundaries and consistency than it does with corporal punishment or the lack thereof. You get exactly the same problems arising if you discipline with corporal punishment, but do it inconsistently or with variable boundaries.

quote:

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Originally posted by SSM:
Use a mixture of disciplining methods for your kids in my opinion but don't rule out corporal punishment, it doesn't teach kids to hit it teaches kids that bad people get hit, thus not to be bad. And my last point, a kid should only be spanked as a last resort, when the usual procedure of disciplining methods have failed, children need routine. They also shouldn't walk away from the spanking with a white butt.

Love your kids enough to teach them right and wrong properly.

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Here's a funny idea -- "bad people get hit". You see, my daughters might act up sometimes. They just might misbehave, or behave inappropriately. But neither of them have ever been "bad people". Even at their most frustrating, they are not "bad". They are always, in my eyes, the most wonderful people in the world -- even if I'm angry with them at the time. And so, perhaps, this is why I have never felt either of them deserved to be slapped.

Not that that exempts them from having consequences -- they have consequences, and they learn from them. But they also know that we all have our moments, we all make mistakes (because making mistakes is how we all learn), and I never for an instant would consider harming them. I think that sort of self-esteem building prevents more binge drinking, teen pregnancy and early home leaving than any regimen of spanking ever could.

Michelle -- thanks.

edited to add: and brebis, too.

[ 25 October 2005: Message edited by: Zoot ]

[ 31 October 2005: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]

I recall the school bully at my elementary school. I got shoved around and punched on a few occasions. So did everyone who lived within a few blocks. Actually, come to think of it, so did everyone in our grade except for one guy who were this guy's size (he was a 6-footer in grade 5.) And he routinely pounded his younger sister and brother too.

Needless to say, he was not known as Mr. Popularity.

But I also know that he got beatings on a regular basis from his father, who beat him with a belt and his fists, sometimes even taking a belt to his face. To see him with a blackened eye or bruises was not uncommon. His mother was no soft touch either. She used to slap him across the face, even in public and scream at him. These were the "good old days" that some of my age peers, and a lot of the elders, wax poetically about.

you can get government grants to do it and everything.

i don't think a little smack to a kid when they are misbehaving does any harm.