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Author Topic: "Space elevator" to soon be a reality?
Hephaestion
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posted 26 September 2005 09:53 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Arthur C. Clarke first predicted orbital satellites, and they became reality; is his concept of a "space elevator" about to become true as well?

quote:
Russian scientists first envisaged a fixed link to space, and the idea was popularised by the British sci-fi writer and vision-ary, Arthur C Clarke, in his 1978 novel, The Fountains of Paradise.

The theory behind the space elevator is deceptively simple. With a base station on Earth and an orbiting satellite, solar-powered "climbers'', each carrying up to 20 tons, would crawl up a single cable into space over several days. The cable would be held up by the rotation of a 600-ton satellite counter-weight, much like a heavy object at the end of a spinning rope.

Until recently, the concept seemed doomed by the technology available, not least finding a material strong enough to make such a long cable, able to withstand extreme temperatures.

Scientists now believe that a material known as carbon nanotubes could be bound together to make a ribbon, rather than a cable, three-feet across but just half the width of a pencil.

Nanotubes, which are microscopic cylinders of carbon, are currently being developed by a number of companies, including GE and IBM. In one experiment, a sheet of nanotubes one-thousandth the thickness of a human hair could support 50,000 times its own mass.

"Elevator 2010'', which is to be launched on October 21 in California, will offer an annual first prize of $50,000 for the best design for both a tether - or ribbon - and a lightweight climber. It is being run by the Spaceward Foundation, which promotes space exploration, and has the backing of Nasa, which has given $400,000 in prize money. At least 10 teams will take part in the first contest.

Brad Edwards, a board member of the foundation, says the initial development could be ready "in the next couple of years", with the elevator itself being built in another decade.

"We are talking about getting this up in about 15 years,'' Dr Edwards predicted.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 26 September 2005 10:00 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hm. Why a ribbon, I wonder? I suppose if the long axis is in the direction of rotation it would cut down on air drag...?
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Albireo
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posted 26 September 2005 01:20 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Interesting:
quote:
Developers propose a floating base station near the equator, more than 400 miles from the nearest flight path.
I had always assumed that it would have to be tethered to bedrock or something, but it's hard to conceive of it either way. A geosynchronous orbit is really high, about 35,786 kilometers above the Earth's surface. That is more than 10 times the distance of the low-earth orbits used by such craft as the International Space Station and the Shuttles, and about one-tenth of the distance to the moon.

One conception:

You don't want to get stuck on that elevator.

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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Crippled_Newsie
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posted 26 September 2005 02:46 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
On every trip in this elevator, I bet there's one guy who insists on making small talk all the way to the top.
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 26 September 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I can't decide which is worse, three days of weather chat, or three days of uncomfortable silence staring at the floor indicator.
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'lance
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posted 26 September 2005 02:56 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'd be worried about the music, myself.

Some wag would probably insist on programming the music from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Over and over and...


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Albireo
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posted 26 September 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If a crew of two rides up the elevator with the cargo, and one of them farts, everybody will know who did it. And if the trip takes a few days, holding it in won't be an option.

And I would think that the lack of multiple stops along the way would seriously hamper one's odd's of Hitting the standard elevator joke trifecta.

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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chubbybear
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posted 26 September 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for chubbybear        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by 'lance:
Some wag would probably insist on programming the music from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Over and over and...
I'm sorry 'lance, I'm afraid I can't do that.

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'lance
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posted 26 September 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know I've been making some very poor decisions lately, chubbybear...
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arborman
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posted 26 September 2005 03:11 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Joking aside, I think a functional space elevator would be a hell of an improvement on the current 'make a big noise and burn a ton of fuel to escape the gravity well' approach currently being used.

What about flying debris in low orbit? Meteorites etc? How strong is the ribbon, again? I wonder if they could make it 'smart', as in able to repair itself after minor damage...

Presumably the anchor at the top would have to have some way of staying in place if the ribbon broke - it would be a bit alarming to be eating dinner in the space station, then hear a 'pop' and get flung out into space...

Technological concerns aside, it does seem to be the best chance of dealing with the 'gravity well' problem that currently makes space exploration and travel so prohibitive.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 26 September 2005 03:13 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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Southlander
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posted 26 September 2005 05:43 PM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Arthur C. Clarke first predicted orbital satellites, and they became reality; is his concept of a "space elevator" about to become true as well?


Doesn't the object on the end of the rope have to spin quite quickly around the earth, therefore the teather point down here would have to slide around the earth in a little groove, and everyone living near it could hear it zing every time, as it went past. If you could hear it comming, you could dash out and tie little parcels on it as it went past, and they would shoot up to the reciever in the space station. Have to watch for junkmail.


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Jimmy Brogan
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posted 27 September 2005 12:33 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I love the smell of space elevators in the morning. Smells like...

victory.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 September 2005 12:53 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why not just a space escalator? We could have a contest to name it, and see how many dudes write in "Stairway to Heaven!!"

Or a space dumbwaiter. All you'd need is a pulley (attach to nearest space rock) and a few stout astronauts pulling on this end. Up, up and away!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 27 September 2005 01:03 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Why not just a space escalator?

Because it would constantly be blocked by people carrying folded-up strollers.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 27 September 2005 01:35 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Too true. I don't know why, but I guess I always assumed we wouldn't have idjits in the World of the Future. Like science would have found the gene by then or something.
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Papal Bull
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posted 27 September 2005 01:41 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Mr. Magoo...But what of your potential descendants?!

Do we dare dream of a world where your scions have been wiped out by science gone awry?

I say that I dare to do such a thing!


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maestro
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posted 27 September 2005 04:00 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, if we're into 'Stairway To Heaven', why not just a stairs. Theoretically there's no difference between a ribbon and a stairs.

At least a stairs one could walk up, and then slide down the bannister...wheeeeee! ooops, shit, splinter.


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Fidel
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posted 27 September 2005 04:38 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It worries me. With all the nukes, pollution-based capitalism and us slobs down here, why do they want to build a bean stock to a home up there?. What's the hurry ?.

[ 27 September 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


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Vansterdam Kid
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posted 27 September 2005 04:38 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How fast do they think that elevator would go?
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Michelle
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posted 27 September 2005 06:10 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Why not just a space escalator? We could have a contest to name it, and see how many dudes write in "Stairway to Heaven!!"

I'm suddenly having visions of Marvin the Martian reruns.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 27 September 2005 08:33 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
i think this elevator idea is aiming a bit low.
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Blondin
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posted 27 September 2005 10:57 AM      Profile for Blondin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Southlander:

Doesn't the object on the end of the rope have to spin quite quickly around the earth, therefore the teather point down here would have to slide around the earth in a little groove, and everyone living near it could hear it zing every time, as it went past. If you could hear it comming, you could dash out and tie little parcels on it as it went past, and they would shoot up to the reciever in the space station. Have to watch for junkmail.


An object in orbit at ~36,000 km has an orbital period of ~24 hrs. This is called a geostationary orbit.

Here's a bit of fun: go to
NASA's satellite trackingpage and select the J-Track 3D option. This will give you a real-time 3D image of the Earth with all the satellites in orbit around it. Notice the band of geostationary ones in a 'belt' out at ~36,000 km.


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Southlander
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posted 29 September 2005 07:16 AM      Profile for Southlander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thanks for the info, so it'll be out 36,000km and not have to spin any faster than us. I was rather attached to the idea of the spinning anchor point, no trouble with getting stuff up there. Oh well, have to go with the esculator.
Ever been on the esculators in Melbourne at museum station? about three (city type)stories high. Weird. Anyone seen one bigger?

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Blondin
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posted 29 September 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Blondin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's quite a long one at the Toronto Science Center (IIRC) but I don't think it's 3 stories.
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Mandos
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posted 29 September 2005 10:40 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dupont Circle Station in Washington DC. It's like, ridiculous.
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Hinterland
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posted 29 September 2005 11:33 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The longest escalator I've been on is the one at the (Burrard Street?) SkyTrain station in Vancouver. I've said this before on babble, but it bears repeating. Since it's hard to see the end of the escalator, there's a neat optical trick you can do if you imagine the escalator being horizontal (rather than angled diagonally). Once you do this, everyone looks as if they're standing slanted on a horizontal surface.
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cco
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posted 29 September 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for cco     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
Dupont Circle Station in Washington DC. It's like, ridiculous.

Isn't Dupont Circle actually two escalators?

Anyway, memory serves (and Google confirms) that Wheaton's escalator, again on the DC metro, is actually longer, taking over 4 minutes to ascend. Pyongyang's (North Korea) is supposedly the deepest, but nobody knows for sure.


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West Coast Greeny
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posted 29 September 2005 05:02 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
If a crew of two rides up the elevator with the cargo, and one of them farts, everybody will know who did it. And if the trip takes a few days, holding it in won't be an option.


[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Albireo ]


Oh forget farting, how are you supposed to hold anything in for 2 days. And whatever manages to leak will just be THERE, for TWO DAYS.


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Hephaestion
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posted 25 October 2005 04:16 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
'Space elevator' competitors rise to occasion

quote:
A three-day competition at the NASA Ames Research Center, which wrapped up Sunday, brought together callow college students and grizzled engineering hobbyists to design a ``space elevator'' -- a platform rising beyond the Earth's atmosphere along a super-strong ribbon of carbon ``nanotubes'' that could, one day, carry cargo into space much more cheaply than rockets.

Just as the first airplane flight at Kitty Hawk lasted only 12 seconds, the seven ``robot climbers'' entered in the competition didn't ascend more than a few dozen feet up a tether attached to a giant crane. And none performed well enough to win the $50,000 grand prize.

But they broke a barrier on Sunday nonetheless -- proving that the idea is not some science-fiction fantasy.

``If we get financing, it'll be one or two years'' before a space elevator becomes a reality, said Brad Edwards, a former staff scientist at Los Alamos National Laboratory who has written a book on the subject.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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