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Author Topic: Lesbien bonobo's and female power in baboons
Brian White
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posted 15 August 2006 06:16 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I saw a program by the katz brothers a couple of months ago where baboon troups in ethopia were filmed over an extended period. It was very interesting indeed! Typically a harem of 10 or 12 females selected their male from those which follow the troup around. They keep the male as their guard and lover until they get tired of him. This can be months or years. In baboons, the males are much bigger and more powerful than the females and so they should easily be able to bully them. Not so! It showed the male after accidently or diliberately hurting one of the infants. He was chased and bitten by a bunch of howling females. Is this how primates develloped their brain power? These pretty complex social interactions where male physical power is trumped by female group concensus?
And I have just seen a scientific magazine in a store that shows female bonobos (pigmy chimps) pressing their genitals together to demonstrate to a nearby dominant male that they have a strong bond with each other. The suggestion is that it shows the male that if they have food, he will have to fight both of them if he just barges in to try to steal some of it.
I think it is a pretty neat possible explaination of how and why lesbien behaviour arose.
Do you?

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 15 August 2006 07:27 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
bonobos actually use sex rather than aggression as their primary method for resolving conflict and negotiating for food. I would not say there is any threat of aggression behind the sexual behaviour rather a preferred method of social problem solving. Bonobo's also have a great deal of same sex interactions for this same reason. I also believe the groups are matriarchal

bonobo-a-go-go says I


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brian White
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posted 21 August 2006 07:07 PM      Profile for Brian White   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The magazine in question is scientific american.
It is one of the more reputable scientific mags.
And it even shows (shock horror) the female lesbien behavour telling a bigger male to stay away from their food.

From: Victoria Bc | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 21 August 2006 11:30 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brian White:
I think it is a pretty neat possible explaination of how and why lesbien behaviour arose.
Do you?

So the theory would be that lesbian behaviour "arose" as a gesture of female solidarity against potential male aggression?

And I guess a corollary would be that once the male is no longer looking, the lesbian behaviour would become unnecessary?

It's a theory devoid of any accounting for the erotic attraction that motivates most lesbian relationships among humans (which I assume is what the theory is supposed to be about).

It also ignores the fact that this supposed "lesbian" behaviour observed among bonobos occurs among heterosexual females.

How would this theory explain the presumed link between the behaviour of bonobos and the behaviour of humans? Does human behaviour result from mimicking the behaviour of bonobos? Or did human ancestors behave the way bonobos do and somehow we inherited this behaviour?

I find the theory less than compelling.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 22 August 2006 02:15 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe it is because there is a little monkey in all of us?
From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
500_Apples
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posted 22 August 2006 03:26 PM      Profile for 500_Apples   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not to nitpick but Scientific American is hardly one of the more reputable scientific mags out there.

Also, complex primate interactions should not be needed to explain homosexual and lesbian behaviors which are evident in much simpler animals. I think even ants can be gay.

[ 22 August 2006: Message edited by: 500_Apples ]


From: Montreal, Quebec | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 22 August 2006 09:18 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is also an article in scientific american and is written by Franz De Wahl one of the most recognized experts on Bonobos

quote:
During reconciliations, bonobos use the same sexual repertoire as they do during feeding time. Based on an analysis of many such incidents, my study yielded the first solid evidence for sexual behavior as a mechanism to overcome aggression. Not that this function is absent in other animals--or in humans, for that matter--but the art of sexual reconciliation may well have reached its evolutionary peak in the bonobo. For these animals, sexual behavior is indistinguishable from social behavior. Given its peacemaking and appeasement functions, it is not surprising that sex among bonobos occurs in so many different partner combinations, including between juveniles and adults. The need for peaceful coexistence is obviously not restricted to adult heterosexual pairs.


Bonobo Sex and Society

From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
erroneousrebelrouser
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posted 23 August 2006 05:20 PM      Profile for erroneousrebelrouser   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
like me maybe they're born that way; they don't have a choice in the matter. Thing is we can't find out if a male (or a series of males) were abusing them; especially at an early age; which would have made the choice easier. (which sometimes is the issue, too)!

Some people argue about the genetics thing too. However...

quote:

And I have just seen a scientific magazine in a store that shows female bonobos (pigmy chimps) pressing their genitals together to demonstrate to a nearby dominant male that they have a strong bond with each other. The suggestion is that it shows the male that if they have food, he will have to fight both of them if he just barges in to try to steal some of it.

The only parallel that I can imagine after reading this would be a visual of a workout gym with personal trainers like Jackie and Zen; and the pressing that they would be doing would be working on their biceps, triceps, and upper body for instance -- and in this case if a 'straight' male came in to try to fight them for anything I would personally like to see them work it out; basically showing the straight male that not only is food not allowed in the gym; but that neither is a 'nearby dominant male.'! (The only dominant males being the other gay trainers who work for Jackie, of course not interested in invitro or the old-fashioned way of fertilizing their eggs! (or stealing their food)

Although on the last segment; Zen was depressed and asked her gay/male friend after asking what he could do to make her feel better; she replied "you can fertilize my eggs!"

[ 24 August 2006: Message edited by: erroneousrebelrouser ]


From: home sweet home | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged

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