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Author Topic: Tuskless elephants evolving in China, due to poaching
Hephaestion
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posted 18 July 2005 08:42 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
(Beijing) A recent study has predicted that more male Asian elephants in China will be born without tusks because poaching of tusked elephants is reducing the gene pool, the China Daily reported Sunday.

The study, conducted in the Xishuangbanna Dai Autonomous Prefecture in southwest China's Yunnan province, where two-thirds of China's Asian elephants live, found that the tuskless phenomenon is spreading, the report said.

The tusk-free gene, which is found in between two and five percent of male Asian elephants, has increased to between five percent and 10 percent in elephants in China, according to Zhang Li, an associate professor of zoology at Beijing Normal University.

"This decrease in the number of elephants born with tusks shows the poaching pressure for ivory on the animal," said Zhang, whose research team has been studying elephants since 1999 at a reserve in Xishuangbanna.

Only male elephants have tusks, which are said to be a symbol of masculinity and a weapon to fight for territory. However, due to poaching for ivory, the elephants' pride has become a death sentence, the report said.

"The larger tusks the male elephant has, the more likely it will be shot by poachers," said Zhang. "Therefore, the ones without tusks survive, preserving the tuskless gene in the species."

A similar decline in elephants with tusks has been seen in Uganda, which experienced heavy poaching in the 1970s and '80s, the report said.

However, Zhang's findings of the spread of the tuskless gene due to poaching must be tested, according to some academics.

"This is, of course, a possibility, but till now there is no clear genetic proof that it can occur," Vivek Menon, executive director of the Wildlife Trust of India, was quoted as saying.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 18 July 2005 09:01 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's interesting, Heph. Funnily enough, I was reading a couple of articles in the 9 July issue of New Scientist on the bus home from work this evening that touched on a very similar phenomemon in a variety of species. Cod off Newfoundland are shrinking due to our preference for larger specimens, the horn size of Bighorn Sheep have reduced by a quarter due to hunting, the Himalayan snow lotus is averaging 40% smaller in areas where it's regularly picked.

The point that was being made in the article was that we've been taught to think of evolution as being glacially slow, but in fact we're seeing it make definite changes within decades. (Artificially-induced, granted.) This is all the more reason to take study of the process even more seriously -- a concerted effort to squash this Intelligent Design shite would be a good place to start.


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 July 2005 01:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The problem is that nobody in the Christian realm seems to have made the connection between earlier human selective breeding attempts on animals and plants, to unintended evolutionary consequences of human activity.

But they amount to the same thing - a selective pressure exerted on a population whose allele frequencies shift in response to the pressure.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 18 July 2005 01:55 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Exactly Dr. A fundamentalist farmer should expect to breed his scrawniest bull with his scrawniest cow, and have the same chance of producing a champion as a person who bred a champion with a champion.

Interesting that when and where money talks, and bullshit walks, people opt for the scientific way of doing things.

Although some things don't work so neatly.

A hundred years of the automobile, and squirels still haven't evolved any traffic savy.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 July 2005 01:57 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That would make a great question to ask followers of "Intelligent Design": do you think that the various breeds of dog are the work of Evolution, or ID?

If more than 20% say "ID" then we can laugh cruelly at their utter ignorance of basic facts, and maybe even use this to discredit them now and again.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
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posted 18 July 2005 01:59 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Most fundie farmers would be willing to believe in microevolutionary pressures happening in the present day. So they wouldn't believe that breeding for traits in populations in impossible. What they would reject is:

1. Common descent.

2. Speciation.


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 18 July 2005 02:53 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
[QUOTE] What they would reject is:
1. Common descent.

2. Speciation.


That is a worthwhile clarification. Still their position is untenable.

"Speciation" refers to the inability of one specimen to produce viable young with another specimen, because they are too genetically distinct.

But if "traits" can be bred for, why would that not eventually lead to an accumulation of "traits" sufficient as to inhibit reproduction?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 July 2005 02:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I believe you can test that with a male St. Bernard and a female Chihuahua. Same number of genes, little chance of viable reproduction.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 July 2005 02:59 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So how long before elephants make the jump from stone tools to landing on the moon inside of about 50 thousand years ?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
wedge_oli
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posted 18 July 2005 03:07 PM      Profile for wedge_oli     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
So how long before elephants make the jump from stone tools to landing on the moon inside of about 50 thousand years ?.


From: Montreal, QC and St. Catharines Ontario | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 18 July 2005 03:14 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
That would make a great question to ask followers of "Intelligent Design": do you think that the various breeds of dog are the work of Evolution, or ID?

This is an excellent example. The example with dogs demonstartes that evolutionary change can occur very quickly and without any requirement for divine intervention. The Siberian Fox Experiement should, in a rational world, put to rest any nonsense about nature being to complex for, er, well ... nature:

quote:
Forty years into our unique lifelong experiment, we believe that Dmitry Belyaev would be pleased with its progress. By intense selective breeding, we have compressed into a few decades an ancient process that originally unfolded over thousands of years. Before our eyes, "the Beast" has turned into "Beauty," as the aggressive behavior of our herd's wild progenitors entirely disappeared. We have watched new morphological traits emerge, a process previously known only from archaeological evidence. Now we know that these changes can burst into a population early in domestication, triggered by the stresses of captivity, and that many of them result from changes in the timing of developmental processes. In some cases the changes in timing, such as earlier sexual maturity or retarded growth of somatic characters, resemble pedomorphosis.

http://reactor-core.org/taming-foxes.html


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 18 July 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh, you should see the bizzare thought that comes up in some reptile breeding circles

Someone was actually doing research on attempting to breed legless lizards to its closest (legged) relatives to see what would happen. There are lots of scary thought paths that go on there. Mind you, some of the breeders know what they are doing and can create beautiful living gems like poison dart frogs with AMAZING colouration. Some of them...Eeeek. They breed freaks from what I've heard.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 July 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe it's time we bred a lion and tiger... y'know, for its skills in magic.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 18 July 2005 03:36 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by wedge_oli:

>edited reference to wedgi's favorite cartoon<
[/IMG]

So wedgi, have you been watching children's cartoons long ?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 18 July 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, while I'm perfectly willing to believe that the tuskless gene is gonnna be spreading, on the face of it I'm not sure it's necessary to explain things.
I mean, suddenly the tuskless males are about twice as common. Well, yeah--but you could get that result by killing half of the tusked males and none of the tuskless ones, without any breeding at all.

Bloody poachers.
Bloody buyers!


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 18 July 2005 05:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
RPolson, the point remains. Removing alleles from a population will shift the distribution, and constitutes a selective pressure.

(It's obvious that killing elephants just for their tusks is a gratuitously selfish act, so I'll just say "hear, hear" to the last two lines of your post)


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 18 July 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Maybe it's time we bred a lion and tiger... y'know, for its skills in magic.

It's pretty much my favorite animal.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Nanuq
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posted 18 July 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for Nanuq   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's interesting. I would have thought that male and female ligers would both be sterile for the same reason, i.e., they're like mules. Why would female ligers be fertile?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Suzette
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posted 19 July 2005 05:24 AM      Profile for Suzette     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Aren't mules totally without gender rather than being merely sterile males and females?

Does the fact that I ask rather than consulting the google oracle make me a lazy sod?

Edited to add: It was a Herculean effort, but here is the answer...

quote:
Under conditions of domestication it is possible to obtain hybrids between equid species. There are records of onager/ass, onager/horse and zebra/horse (zebroids) crosses, but the cross that has been most significant in human history is one between horses and donkeys. Breeding a male donkey to a female horse results in a mule; breeding a male horse to a female donkey produces a hinny.

Offspring from either cross, although fully developed as males or females, are almost always sterile. Hence, a line of horses and a line of domestic asses must be maintained to perpetuate mule or hinny production.

More mule facts.


But for a line of domestic asses...

[ 19 July 2005: Message edited by: Suzette ]


From: Pig City | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 19 July 2005 04:36 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Breed male Conservative politicians with R.E.A.L. women. That'll get you some domestic asses.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 19 July 2005 05:49 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Breed male Conservative politicians with R.E.A.L. women. That'll get you some domestic asses.

I believe they're called 'ninnies'...


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged

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