babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


Post New Topic  Post A Reply
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » right brain babble   » humanities & science   » free will

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: free will
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 22 November 2003 06:34 AM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
this stems from my post in the thread philosophical question

what is free will? how sure are we that this condition exists? perhaps it is more of an optimism than a surety - that the physical laws that govern the universe are less than deterministic, or even probabalistic when applied to the structures of humanity. but is that arrogance? are we really free to decide anything? i mean is the sub-quantum fluctuation that started the big bang and ended eternity, for at least the span of time anyway, and is the root cause of everything, of every electron's movement, of every supernova, is it possible that the firing of synapses in our brains, the electrical current that twitches our muscles, is already determined the moment the universe started expanding?

the stars don't do random things. can we? i guess since we don't, and probably can't, know what happens below the planck scale we will never know if the universe is really as ordered as it appears, or if random truly exists. we think we can approximate random, but again, only to the extent governed by physical laws - which are not random. so maybe 'random' is as much arrogance as 'free will'.

or maybe the fundamental orderedness of the universe is what itself bestows upon us free will. because we can, and do, understand the physical laws that govern the whole of everything, we can exploit the lack of randomness underlying existence, and act of our own free will, in effect creating randomness out of thin air, as it were.

the notion of freedom - political, personal, etc. - depends on the existence of free will, and we take it for granted so often, yet at the same time we romanticize fatalism (ie look around hollywood, any religious organization you want) as if free will were some kind of burden to be thrown off our backs for the safety of knowing it's not our fault, it's part of some master plan.

feel free to disagree, of course.


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 22 November 2003 04:21 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course there is no free anything, in the absolute sense: everything is controlled and limited by laws and forces of some kind - ultimately, the same original Law and Force. Within those limits, there is a bit of "wriggle-room". Maybe even that is an illusion.

From the human point of view - inside this type of brain - free will might as well exist, since we imagine that it does. Besides, we don't know about all the forces constraining our thoughts and actions; we don't know how, exactly, the rules operate.
Since we're programmed with the perception of choices, we have no choice but to think and act as if they were real.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 22 November 2003 06:58 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's no way to "prove" free will, as such proof necessitates an omniscient point of view that can take all factors into account and see all outcomes, then determine if outcomes have followed their pre-aligned course, or if they have followed another course. I think we can assume that such an omniscient POV is unattainable.

If it's even logical. Perhaps the universe isn't as deterministic as we assume in our ignorance. Maybe the stars do do random things, just on a level we don't perceive. Everyone thought Newton's laws were the be-all, end-all until it was discovered that they only worked within certain confines. The same will be found about our physical "laws". Maybe the universe is one great mind where all the stars are atoms and the behaviour of the universe is the result of the free choices of this cosmic mind. Sounds kooky, but we rule it out based on our ignorance, not our knowledge. What I'm saying is that we just don't know as much as we like to think.

Free will isn't something you can really reconcile, in my opinion. You just gotta believe. I suppose you could say it's a religious matter.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bubbles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3787

posted 22 November 2003 11:18 PM      Profile for Bubbles        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Free will" ??

You are free as long as you have no will.

If you have a will, then you are not free.

That is the limit of your choise about 'free will'


From: somewhere | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tackaberry
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 487

posted 23 November 2003 02:27 AM      Profile for Tackaberry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

From: Tokyo | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 23 November 2003 01:11 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Thought-experiment:
Try go one hour (awake!) without making any conscious decisions, or taking any self-willed action.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1064

posted 23 November 2003 01:21 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sounds like certain late afternoons at my office.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 23 November 2003 01:32 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
nonesuch, why do I get the feeling that will turn out to be harder than it looks?

In all seriousness, I think it is actually possible to not make decisions with conscious volition, as anyone who drives or transits a well-worn commute route can attest. I can personally state that several times on a commute I've come to the end of it realizing that at no time did I have to actually think about which step to take next.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 23 November 2003 04:13 PM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You never change lanes? Never decide whether to stop on yellow or scoot through? Never pass another car - or pull back in, because something's coming? Never stop and wait for a gap before turning? Never dim your lights - and, if so, when?

There is a difference between not willing an action and not deeming an action significant enough to remember. Yes, things that we do habitually become almost automatic; they require very little of our attention. I can crochet while watching a thriller, yet no predetermined force - internal or external - directs my choice of stitches, or when to start decreasing. Of course i don't later recall deciding and doing these things, yet i'm aware of them at the time.


From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 23 November 2003 05:49 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The point is not that you don't make choices, it's wondering where the choices come from. Are you actually acting "freely", in the sense that even an omniscient observer (God, for lack of a better word) could not predict your actions, or are all your choices the result of dizzyingly complex conjunction of forces beyond your control, meaning that our god-guy could tell you exactly when you'll stop stitching and why?

Regardless of your apparent certainty in this matter, the fact is you don't know. If a ball could think, it would no doubt believe that it is choosing how to bounce, yet we maintain that its behaviour is rigidly determined by physical laws that no one can alter. The only difference with us is that our behaviour is so ridiculously complex that nobody has ever created a model to explain it (or ever will, in my opinion).

One thing I feel sure of (though, once again, I can't prove it): If there is real volition, it applies to all creation, not just to human beings. If we can choose, then on some unfathomable level, so can the ball.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
nonsuch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1402

posted 24 November 2003 10:26 AM      Profile for nonsuch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Of course i don't know - either about us, or the ball. If some teensy subatomic particle can decicide which slot to go through, then a ball could presumably make far more complex choices - perhaps democratic ones, based on a referendum of all the electrons in it. Maybe free will exists only on the subatomic level and everything else follows from that.
The point is
quote:
Since we're programmed with the perception of choices, we have no choice but to think and act as if they were real.
that there is no point in speculating, or trying to prove it one way or the other, since we're never going to get another type of brain or an external point of view.

From: coming and going | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
babbler/dabbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4633

posted 24 November 2003 09:07 PM      Profile for babbler/dabbler        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There is a great book called "Phantoms in the Brain", that starts out probing how the brain works, coping mechanisms and the phantom limb syndrome of amputees and towards the end of all the research says that "this research suggests that we may not actually exist"!

Ya gotta read it. I've had it out of the library about 5 times.

Course, the bottom line is , we will have to die to be sure, so I'm not in a hurry to find out for sure just yet.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca