after the last couple of years on this site, I've come across some reasonable and some unreasonable ideas and ideals, and I've often wondered how many folks would fight for those ideals, physically. I know there are lots of pacifists around, so I guess count them out (although, for them it would be a matter of *not* fighting for their ideals).

I think sometimes about the Foreign Brigades in the Spanish Civil War, and I wonder if anyone 'round here would ever be so inclined as to volunteer for military service, with the Canadian Forces or another group, to fight for something they believed in - knowing that they might be called upon to kill for those ideas. That sounds cliche, or old-fashioned, or wishful thinking (can anyone really claim that the ends justifies the means, anymore) - but that aside. Does anyone care about anything *that* much?

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yeah, I feel as though I could be persuaded to join a cause somewhere, fighting for something I believed in.

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Translation of the 2 first paragaphs:

Die for ideas, that's a great idea.
Me, I nearly died because I didn't have any.
Because those who had the ideals, an overwhelming crowd,
Fell on me yelling "Slaughter".
They were able to convince me, and my cheeky Muse
Admitted she was wrong, and rallied to their cause.
Just maintaining a tiny suspicion of doubt.
Die for ideas, OK, but just make it a slow death,
OK, a slow death.

Judging that there's no danger in staying at home,
Let's meander on the road to the other world.
Because if you force the pace, you end up dying
For ideals which are out of date tomorrow.
Now if there's one thing that's really bitter and upsetting
When you offer up your soul to God, its realising
That you took the wrong turning, got hold of the wrong idea.
Die for ideas, OK, but just make it a slow death,
OK, a slow death.

Fighting and dying for ideals usually means massacring some poor schmucks for those ideas, which then turn up to have been wrong all along.

You: important, Left-wing, militant.
Me: passionate, violent, ready to die for you.

Tired of dating the same old pacifists and finding that things aren't changing? Tired of a relationship that only "consummates" every four years? Want a real rebel who's ready to do what it takes for a special cause like you? Call me! Let's make beautiful revolutionary music together!

That's funny. What a resemblance!

No - the whole idea is really academic. Because if there I *was* currently convinced to fight for a cause, well, wouldn't I be there fighting for it? But I can conceive of situations where I'd be forced to. Like, oh, I don't know.

Okay: here, *say* (this is extremely unlikely) there is a civil war in the US, basically pitting democrats and modereate republicans against extremists, quasi-fascists. I think it would be in our best interests to let "foreign insurgents" cross the borders and go help out the democrats.

Because, if we're not actually willing to do anything about them, why bother having them, right?

Has anyone else noticed the growing trend of people voicing opinions in the abstract? As in, "I've heard that people think X about Y..." and that way, they're not held responsible for the views they're expressing, but still somehow they're getting the idea out. I find this to be increasingly frustrating. How can we talk about ideas if nobody's willing to actually own their own thoughts and speak out about them?

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Has anyone else noticed the growing trend of people voicing opinions in the abstract? As in, "I've heard that people think X about Y..." and that way, they're not held responsible for the views they're expressing, but still somehow they're getting the idea out.

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In fairness, this is babble, after all. Anything else would be... well, look:

babbler A: "I personally, strongly believe that...."

babbler B: "Oh, so this is all about you and your beliefs? Well guess what bub, everyone's got beliefs!"

babbler A: "Many Canadians believe that..."

babbler B: "I'll need sources from at least 3 newspapers, all of whose politics I support, before I can even address this specious claim!"

babbler A: "Many polls show, and I agree, that Canadians believe..."

babbler B: "Let's hurry up and Freep that poll!

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after the last couple of years on this site, I've come across some reasonable and some unreasonable ideas and ideals, and I've often wondered how many folks would fight for those ideals, physically.

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ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,

And then my head exploded...

[ 20 July 2004: Message edited by: Critical Mass ]

That is a fine and noble ideal. I share it. The question is what happens when others do not desire peace. For there to be co-existence there must be existence; I think that in the face of genocide, mass-murder, and breakdown of civil society, forceful intervention is a moral option. I am a soldier not because I long to kill, but because I think people should have the right to a peaceful existence.

I was not claiming that there are whole nations full of drooling blood thirsty monsters. (Even though there are times and places where large numbers of people get caught up in collective madness.) Two examples of what I am talking about what happened in Yugoslavia, and Rwanda. The majority of people did not desire war, it was forced upon them. We failed to various degrees in both of those examples. Rwanda, for example, ~800,000 people died, and ~2,000,000 million people were displaced. Most of these killings were conducted with machetes. The Nation is a small one, about 1/3 the size of New Brunswick. Considering the technology level behind the killings and the size of the area involved, a rapid intervention force could have saved many people. I think most of the people that we could have saved would have desired peace.

[ 20 July 2004: Message edited by: Rand McNally ]

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I didn't know you were a soldier, McNally. Way to go!

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The army's offering signing bonuses for engineers, Zahid. Get up to $40,000 cash for signing up.

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Get up to $40,000 cash for signing up.

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I completely see what Michelle is saying. But what about a possible conflict between two first-world states? Like WWII? Or a civil war within a first-world state?

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But that's not about ideals: that's about necessity.
Ideals or ideas - no, i wouldn't physically fight for them. No armed conflict i've ever heard of has succeeded in promoting an idea. Imposing an idea is another matter. All you can accomplish with force is to make people say "Yes, Sir, you're right", when they really mean "I hate your guts and will kill you if i get the chance."

A good idea is still good, even when unarmed and defeated. A bad idea keeps right on being bad, no matter how many guns it commands or how many battles it wins.
The only way to help a good idea grow is to plant it in fertile minds and let people work out the physical details for themselves. It takes patience and tolerance and flexibility and a huge capacity for disappointment.

[ 21 July 2004: Message edited by: nonesuch ]