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Author Topic: Maria Minna has failed Beaches-East York's progressive voters
Robo
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posted 18 June 2008 07:36 PM      Profile for Robo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We were invited by Robert MacBain in a thread that is now closed to comment on Maria Minna's policies and positions, rather than use personal attacks. Okey-dokey.

Ending Kyoto: Maria Minna abstained on the Oct 24/07 vote on the Throne Speech allowing the Harper government to end Canada's involvement in the Kyoto Accord.

Helping the Manufacturing Sector: On Nov 14/07, Maria Minna abstained on a vote that would have provided assistance to Canada's manufacturing and forestry sectors, allowing the Harper government to continue to ignore the job losses there.

Infringing Personal Security: Maria Minna abstained on a Feb 6/08 vote that allowed the Harper government to reinstate so-called "security certificates" widely opposed by human rights advocates.

Afghanistan: Maria Minna voted with Harper's government on Mar 13/08 to extend Canada's military role in Afghanistan to 2011.

Liberal Backbencher's Own Bill: A Liberal backbencher had crowed about his bill being passed to allow parents a $5000 tax deduction for parents saving for their children's education. On Mar 13/08, Maria Minna abstained when the Harper government introduced legislation to repeal the backbencher's bill, killing the short-lived accomplishment of her caucus-mate.

Maria Minna talks about being a "progressive" voice in the Liberal caucus at election time. In the House of Commons, she has failed to stand up to vote against the Harper agenda time after time. Marilyn Churley would have stood up aginst every one of those votes, as every New Democrat present did. Instead, Maria Minna is content to let the Harper government continue to implement its agenda. Actual progressives in Beaches-Each York deserve better than Maria Minna.

To quote Robert MacBain in that other thread: "End of story".

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Robo ]

[ 04 October 2008: Message edited by: Robo ]


From: East York | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Islander
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posted 18 June 2008 08:52 PM      Profile for Islander     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
None of these issues are the fault of Maria Minna. In a system of party discipline, decisions about what bills to support and what votes are cast are made by the leader. With the Liberal strategy of having only token numbers of MP's vote in opposition to the government, the individual names of members who vote or abstain are irrelevant. The fault lies with Stephan Dion.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 19 June 2008 03:51 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Who elected him leader?

Besides, MPs aren't sheep. They can ignore their leader when his strategy is one of self-defeat. Or worse, one that denies a huge chunk of voters their 'voice' (as unwise as those voters are, voting for a Liberal as a supposed 'progressive') in parliament.

I've got to get into the business of making yellow ties. There's a fortune to be made.

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 19 June 2008 03:53 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is the fault of Maria Minna (the supposedly progressive Liberal) that she doesn't openly denounce what her party is doing and if necessary resign from the Liberal caucus and sit as an independent.

Instead her only defence seems to be "the devil made me do it"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 19 June 2008 06:02 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Islander:
None of these issues are the fault of Maria Minna.

Does that mean that she can't take credit for any of the (allegedly) good things that the Liberals have done?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 June 2008 06:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Whether it's the leader who is forcing her to abstain or her own decision, it's clearly a lie to claim she is the "voice" for Beaches-East York.

Perhaps her campaign literature next time should say she's the "Absentee MP For Beaches-East York Because The Leader Told Me To" and that would be a little more accurate.

Same with all the other Liberal toadies who are giving the Harper minority a defacto majority government.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 19 June 2008 06:35 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
canvassing for Marilyn a few months ago, i used the line at the door that she wanted to provide better representation than the current Liberal MP, as every time they are asked to stand up and vote, they sit down. it got alot of chuckles and nods.

i would also point out that MP Minna didn't once in three years stand up for her constituents and oppose the Portland Energy Centre or come to a single public meeting on the issue, whose pollution track will directly affect the air quality in her riding. did i mention that the provincial Liberals exempted it from a full Environmental Assessment? yup.

i think the question that should be asked is...."Maria who?"

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: farnival ]


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 19 June 2008 06:37 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
...MPs aren't sheep. They can ignore their leader when his strategy is one of self-defeat. Or worse, one that denies a huge chunk of voters their 'voice' (as unwise as those voters are, voting for a Liberal as a supposed 'progressive') in parliament.
Now, this is nub heh?, Why are Liberal MP's, en masse, including Maria Minna, denying their constituents/electorate their voice? How do they justify it?

From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
john
Citizen
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posted 19 June 2008 09:42 AM      Profile for john     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you're making lists, Robo, here's another dismaying way in which Minna has left progressive BEY voters behind: rubber-stamping Harper's reckless tax cuts.

From last fall through this spring, Minna helped Harper by skipping the budget votes that finalized his $188-billion tax cut package. Tax cuts that will take a $40-billion annual bite out of the federal budget. Tax cuts that gut Canada's capacity to afford the kinds of social investments that Minna has never stopped talking up locally -- from child care to affordable housing.

How you solve a problem like Maria? Sit on your hands while Harper hollows out government in the under-reported coup of this (nominally) minority Parliament.


From: Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
JimmyRiddle
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posted 19 June 2008 10:04 AM      Profile for JimmyRiddle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Minna in her own words:

"It is clear that Harper wants to change our culture to a more far-right Republican state. The changes he has already made to our social programs and institutions are a major step in that wrong-headed direction.

As your Member of Parliament, I will do everything in my power to stop this man from destroying our country." – Maria Minna letter to constituents, “My View”, April 1, 2007.

Thanks for coming out Maria.


From: Soap box | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Erstwhile
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posted 19 June 2008 11:18 AM      Profile for Erstwhile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"It is clear that Harper wants to change our culture to a more far-right Republican state, when we Liberals know that we have taken the state just far-right enough. Although he continues the good work that my old bosses Chretien and Martin did in attempting to render the Canadian state impotent, well, gosh, going any further down the path we set this country on is just wrong-headed, darn it all.

As your Member of Parliament, I will do everything that the Liberal Party apparatus lets me do to stop this man from destroying our country, other than actually taking steps to stop this man from destroying our country.

Also, vote Liberal. We own your votes, remember?

Love, Maria."


From: Deepest Darkest Saskabush | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 19 June 2008 08:07 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't like this thread as it is clearly an attempt to annoy and bait a fellow babbler by going after his spouse. This is not debate and its disgusting.

This thread mostly tries to tag her with the blame for the strategy of her entire party and its leader. What has she done that is any worse than the rest of her caucus? Do we have a thread for every Liberal? No, just the one whose spouse happens to be here.

Would we accept going after a female babbler about her husband? I don't even want to consider the implications of this.

I am not a Liberal. I am not a supporter of hers but this is a tasteless crappy thread that ought to be shut down since it was not created in the spirit of debate at all. I thought that this sort of thing was called trolling.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
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posted 19 June 2008 08:34 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh boo-hoo.

Maria Minna is a public figure - a Member of the Canadian Parliament no less.

If she doesn't want to be held accountable, let her resign.

After all, it's not like she's doing anything to earn her paycheque anyway.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 June 2008 03:46 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Some may argue that undue attention was focused on Maria Minna by Robert MacBain, and that this sort of response was predictable. Nonetheless, I'm carefully trying to paint all the sit-down Liberals with the same yellow brush. No special treatment for individual MPs (unless they actually stand up and defy Dion by voting, not rotating).
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2008 03:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:
I don't like this thread as it is clearly an attempt to annoy and bait a fellow babbler by going after his spouse. This is not debate and its disgusting.

Robert MacBain INVITED babblers to comment on Minna's policies and positions in another thread.

In this thread, they are doing so.

This is fair comment.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 20 June 2008 04:01 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I was going to agree with Sean in Ottawa, until it became apparent that the babbler he defends used babble to have a discussion about his wife.

There is nothing harmful in this thread.

And yes there is nothing specific that Maria Minna is doing that the entire Liberal party isn't engaged in.

She either agrees with the Liberal strategy or she doesn't.

If she disagrees with her party and she cannot stand up for herself or for her constituents, how can she stand up against Harper and the CPC?

I would have to say, that if a spouse started a political thread here about their significant other all threads about such a person are fair game.

On a side note, has any Liberal MP had the courage to speak out?


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 20 June 2008 04:54 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Did he start the conversation about her or come to her defence?
Even if he did this-- is it good for Babble to allow threads that are for the purpose of getting under someone else's skin- even if deserved-- is that the tone we want around here.
This is not a real discussion this is a tit-for-tat sanctioned by a moderator-- I am totally unimpressed. I had understood that was not what this place was for.

I don't think visitors should come to this site to see whole threads created to irritate other people and then the Mods saying that is fair comment

If Babble wants to know why they have the poisoned atmosphere that people have been discussing in other places here for a while now-- look no further.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 05:20 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Michelle mistakenly says: “Robert MacBain INVITED babblers to comment on Minna's policies and positions in another thread.”

My exact words on that other thread were:

“Almost six years after her [Maria Minna’s] name was cleared [of false charges about having voted illegally in a municipal by-election], posters like Malcolm French and Robo libel her at will secure in the belief that they will not have to defend themselves in a court of law.

“Argue against her policies or the positions that she takes if you want. But, why persist with the false personal attacks?”

That was most definitely NOT an invitation to start a thread on Maria Minna's policies or positions.

It was a request to Malcolm French and Robo to stop libeling her at will.

Madmax mistakenly says: “I would have to say, that if a spouse started a political thread here about their significant other all threads about such a person are fair game.”

Again, I did most definitely did NOT start a thread on Maria Minna.

What I did do, on June 4, 2008, was point out that the reason she did not vote on an NDP motion on Bill C-50 was because she was in Toronto receiving an award.

That eight-line posting on my part opened the door for Malcolm French and Robo to bring up the false allegations that she voted illegally in a municipal by-election in 2000.

Despite evidence that I posted showing that she did nothing wrong, Malcolm French and Robo persisted in their false claim that she voted illegally.

Malcolm French described Maria Minna as an “inept and useless” Toronto MP.

To which I responded by saying: “Argue against her policies or the positions that she takes if you want. But, why persist with the false personal attacks?”

If supporters of NDP candidate Marilyn Churley want to start a thread saying: “Maria Minna has failed Beaches-East York’s progressive voters”, that is their prerogative.

However, drop the crap about my having invited you to do so.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
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posted 20 June 2008 05:24 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:
Did he start the conversation about her or come to her defence?

Minna's name was part of a list of Liberal MPs who had skipped an important vote. No one was singling her out for criticism, until her husband (and might I add, her publicity chair during election campaigns) decided to make the thread about her.

Yes, we could start a similar thread for every member of the Liberal Caucus ("Karen Redman has failed Kitchener Centre's progressive voters", etc. etc.). But, Minna is the only Liberal MP whose spokesperson has explicitly inviting babblers to examine her record. That's all that I see Robo and others doing here.


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Krago
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posted 20 June 2008 05:59 AM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
Despite evidence that I posted showing that she did nothing wrong, Malcolm French and Robo persisted in their false claim that she voted illegally.

Actually, you didn't post any evidence showing that she did nothing wrong. Could you please post a copy of the Ethics Commissioner's report on this matter, or at least a link to it on-line?


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 06:35 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Krago says: “Actually, you didn't post any evidence showing that she did nothing wrong. Could you please post a copy of the Ethics Commissioner's report on this matter, or at least a link to it on-line?”

I stated on babble on June 15, 2008:

“The Office of the Ethics Counsellor conducted an extensive review of the law and interviewed representatives of the body responsible for preparing the voters list and other officials involved in the election process.

“The Office of the Ethics Counsellor concluded that ‘Maria Minna was entitled and eligible to vote in the City of Toronto Ward 31 by-election of December, 2001.

“’Since she only voted once in the municipality, the provisions of the Municipal Elections Act of Ontario were respected.’

“That’s not my opinion. That’s the opinion of the federal Office of the Ethics Counsellor.

“It was upon that opinion and interviews with representatives of the Office of the Ethics Counsellor that reporters wrote stories which prompted such headlines as:

“National Post – ‘Liberal MP cleared in municipal vote controversy.’

“Toronto Star – ‘Ethics watchdog exonerates Minna of voting illegally.’

“Globe and Mail – ‘Liberal MP’s vote proper, official rules.’

“That opinion was supported by the lawyers upon whom Maria Minna spent more than $20,000 in the process of clearing her good name.”


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 20 June 2008 06:52 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This "Certs is a candymint! No, Certs is a breathmint!"-style debate about Maria Minna's ethics is really getting tedious.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 06:57 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Agreed, Stockholm.

But some posters won't let it go.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Catchfire
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posted 20 June 2008 07:01 AM      Profile for Catchfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I realize that Robert asked for this kind of response, but I agree with Sean that it is in poor taste, and meant to antagonize an individual babbler--not to marshall up support for Marilyn Churley or some other, brighter political end.
From: On the heather | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 07:23 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Catchfire, the fact that Robo lists his address as East York and Farnival is one of Marilyn Churley's canvassers is no accident.

This thread is an inappropriate extension of the Marilyn Churley election campaign.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
madmax
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posted 20 June 2008 07:40 AM      Profile for madmax   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe the thread should be cut.
I see lots of spinning going on.

It appears that there are TWO campaigns going on here.

I don't believe it elevates either.

As for attendance at a vote.

One has to decide whether receiving/giving an award is more "important" then participating in an "important" vote.

She made the choice, similar to many Liberals, that Parliment is not the place to be on "important" matters.


From: Ontario | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 20 June 2008 07:43 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Maybe the thread should be cut.

Since it is a riding-level discussion if not cut then at least moved to the Ontario forum...


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2008 07:57 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Oh, I didn't notice that this was in the Canadian politics forum. Yes, Toronto folks, please remember that "centre of the universe" is actually an ironic label for Toronto, not literal truth...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2008 07:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
P.S. And yes, I do realize this is about a federal politician, but this really is a riding-specific discussion...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 08:16 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Are we going to have a "riding specific discussion" on every MP in Ontario?
From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 20 June 2008 08:26 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you want to, go for it.
From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 20 June 2008 08:34 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
Catchfire, the fact that Robo lists his address as East York and Farnival is one of Marilyn Churley's canvassers is no accident.

This thread is an inappropriate extension of the Marilyn Churley election campaign.


well robert, i would disagree with that. I think MP Minna has failed BEY's voters, that's why i posted here and why i went to canvass for Churley. It definately was no accident.

and the response i got to my "she sits down every time she's asked to stand up and vote for something" or variations on that them, drew almost a unanimous agreement and lots of dissapointed head shaking. i'm not saying they were supportive of marilyn per se, but they weren't too impressed with their "sitting" MP.

Maria's people harrassed us openly at Stan Wadlow park last year on Canada day and i had no less than 3 young folks volunteering at her table come up to me and tell me i couldn't "sell" canada flags and blow bubbles for kids. when i went over to the older person who sent the kids and informed them that i was representing Layton, who was invited to the park, a federal MP, and was giving away the flags, his response was "oh".

Maria didn't once come to any meetings about the Portlands Energy Centre, which is now up and running thanks to serious monkeying with the the environmentlal legislation by the provincial Liberals, and whose known inevitable pollution will directly affect BEY constituants, and was opposed by those same folks en masse, who did come to the meetings.

It was Churley who started the group that shut down the Ashbridges incinerator, the garbage incinerator, and campaigned tirelessly against the PEC, along with BEY MPP Michael Prue, Councillors Davis, Bussin, and Fletcher, as well as now MPP Tabuns, and MP Layton too. it was Çhurley, Layton and Fletcher who got the Gardiner torn down and the Canada Metal land remediated to allow the extension of the Martin Goodman Trail out to the Beaches.

that is why i volunteer for all of them. If MP Minna was as active as they are for the health of the community, i'd volunteer for her too.

so exactly what is it that MP Minna is noted for accomplishing, if you think this is just an attempt to bash her?

list some of them, please. I for one am interested, cuz i ain't seen nothin' yet.

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: farnival ]


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 08:36 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, It's Me D, I don't want to go for it.

Neither do I want to continue posting on a thread started by the supporters of one federal candidate in an effort to undermine support for the incumbent.

I really do question why this thread is considered to be an appropriate use of babble space.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
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posted 20 June 2008 08:40 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Robert:

Personally I couldn't care less about this thread. That's true about lots of threads. I just ignore them; I'm glad Michelle moved this one, so it is easier to ignore. I certainly don't think that all such threads should be removed or that the moderators should be required to reflect what I find to be worthwhile discussion. Why don't you simply do the same?


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 08:55 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
OK, It’s Me D, how about if I just start a thread on Marilyn Churley having made the right decision when she announced that she was retiring last year after 20 years in politics?

Supporters of Tony Ianno could start a thread questioning the level of support Olivia Chow’s constituency office gives to the people of Trinity-Spadina.

And Gerard Kennedy’s supporters could start a thread on what a great candidate Peggy Nash would be as leader of the ONDP.

Threads like that, and the one that we are on, do not belong on babble.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 June 2008 09:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lots of people have done those kind of threads. Why not?

Did you mistake this board for one that ISN'T a political discussion forum?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
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posted 20 June 2008 09:07 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A political discussion is one thing, Michelle.

Having Marilyn Churley's supporters use babble to undermine support for Maria Minna is something else again.

This is a Beaches-East York issue that should be confined to the usual political brochures, flyers and websites.

No one candidate should have a thread on babble with the specific purpose of taking political shots at an incumbent.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 20 June 2008 09:30 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
OK, It’s Me D, how about if I just start a thread on Marilyn Churley having made the right decision when she announced that she was retiring last year after 20 years in politics?

Supporters of Tony Ianno could start a thread questioning the level of support Olivia Chow’s constituency office gives to the people of Trinity-Spadina.

And Gerard Kennedy’s supporters could start a thread on what a great candidate Peggy Nash would be as leader of the ONDP.

Threads like that, and the one that we are on, do not belong on babble.


I would welcome any of those threads, and they certainly are legitimate topics of discussion. I think I'll start a couple right now, for my local MPs.

Fun!


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 20 June 2008 09:33 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
A political discussion is one thing, Michelle.

Having Marilyn Churley's supporters use babble to undermine support for Maria Minna is something else again.

This is a Beaches-East York issue that should be confined to the usual political brochures, flyers and websites.

No one candidate should have a thread on babble with the specific purpose of taking political shots at an incumbent.


robert, MP Minna is quite capable of undermining support for herself quite nicely by being a do-nothing MP.

babble is a place where there are political discussion forums, precisely to discuss the conduct of elected persons or those running to be elected. It is exacly one of "the usual...websites".

and Marilyn didn't "retire" after 20 years. she stepped down to run against MP Minna precisely because of the poor representation lots of people feel MP Minna is responsible for. that is exactly what the political processes purpose is.

sounds to me like you aren't comfortable or confident in discussing anything about MP Minna that is negative, which to me is everything. that's politics and this is a political discussion forum.

wheird.


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 June 2008 09:37 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
A political discussion is one thing, Michelle.

Having Marilyn Churley's supporters use babble to undermine support for Maria Minna is something else again.


Ha. That's pretty funny. Are you even familiar wtih babble at all? We've been discussing political candidates in various ridings for, oh, seven years or so now.

People from ALL campaigns are welcome on babble to engage in political discussion. And as a prime campaigner for Maria Minna who posts on babble whenever her name comes up, you should be the last person to get all in a huff over political activists talking about their campaigns on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4173

posted 20 June 2008 09:57 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The difference is that this thread was created not for debate but for the purpose of aggrivating another babbler. This is the reason this MP has been singled out. I am not a defender of the Liberal party. I am a NDP supporter.
It is bad enough that some legitimate threads get derailed by personality issues between babblers. Direct attacks on another babbler is against posting policy here but apparently a thread that is an attack on a Babbler by going through his wife is okay. This is not designed to be an attack on Mina- after all there are the better part of 100 Liberals this could be written about- this is to get at her husband who is a babbler here and the opening post makes that clear.

the fact that they are Liberals seem to make it okay here because this kind of thread against a New Dem would result in a different response I suspect.

If this thread had surfaced due to political debate within the riding without reference to Mina's husband then that would be a different matter but that is not the case.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4173

posted 20 June 2008 10:08 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
And no, the tolerance of threads here designed for the primary purpose of aggravating another Babbler is actually rare here- rarely attempted and rarely tolerated- if ever before.
If you want this place to be an open forum for divergent points of view where real debate can happen this is not how to do it.

In spite of all the piling on this is not to do so much with Mina but a member of our community- if you want this place to be an elitist politically correct place unwelcome to divergent opinions then you are going about it the right way by both encouraging and participating in this space being used to attack a member of the community here.

this is little different than the distinction between attacking Conservatives in general of someone like Heywood Floyd personally.

And there is no excuse just because he has defended his wife before- that is different than instigating a personalized attack.

This type of thread contributes to this being an unfriendly place at times. Do we want the precedent where people can look at the parties we don't like and try to bring our venom as close to home as possible to them? How would people like it here if people started attacks on the NDP campaigns with the closest connections to Babble rather than keeping it a political debate-- opening threads clearly design to be a finger in the eye of another person here? Once you let this happen then how do you stop it without being partisan about it? The behavior and practice of opening a thread expressly to get back at or annoy a babbler is okay or it isn't -- it is not more okay if the target is a Liberal-- even if that is a party that disgusts many here.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 20 June 2008 10:19 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robo:
We were invited by Robert MacBain in a thread that is now closed to comment on Maria Minna's policies and positions, rather than use personal attacks. Okey-dokey...


um, sean, i didn't read the other thread. i didn't need to. i saw the title, read the opening post above, and proceeded to post in what is a common type of babble discussion.

i didn't even know that MP Minna is Robert's wife until you pointed it out.

i think you are more than a little off the mark here.

and Robert hasn't posted a list of her achievemnents or accomplishments in the riding yet, because as far as i can tell the only thing she is really good at is getting out her supporters on election day, which is commendable, but doesn't really do much for the air quality in the area, does it?


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 20 June 2008 10:20 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How many threads did we have in the "NDP is Racist" vein??

Why isn't her voting record a proper matter for discourse?? That after all is what she is elected to do, go to parliament and either help make legislation if in government or if not in government then look carefully at what the government is proposing and vote according to the political believes she claimed when asking her constituent to voter for her. Sitting on her hands is not progressive and she claimed she would actively work against this kind of crap.

I wonder what her excuse will be if the Liberals win and they do as always and rule from the right. I suspect like all "progressive" Liberals before her she will say nothing outside the caucus room. Her behaviour now is a good predictor of her future effectiveness when faced with the right wing of the Liberal party pushing the same pro-corporation agenda.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152

posted 20 June 2008 10:27 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The difference is that this thread was created not for debate but for the purpose of aggrivating another babbler. This is the reason this MP has been singled out.

It could also be because the poster who created this thread lives in the MP in question's riding.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4173

posted 20 June 2008 10:30 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robo:
We were invited by Robert MacBain in a thread that is now closed to comment on Maria Minna's policies and positions, rather than use personal attacks. Okey-dokey.

...
To quote Robert MacBain in that other thread: "End of story".

[ 19 June 2008: Message edited by: Robo ]


This is the start and the end of the opening post-- about Robert MacBain- that's the difference.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Krago
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3064

posted 20 June 2008 10:37 AM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
Krago says: “Actually, you didn't post any evidence showing that she did nothing wrong. Could you please post a copy of the Ethics Commissioner's report on this matter, or at least a link to it on-line?”

I stated on babble on June 15, 2008:

“The Office of the Ethics Counsellor ... etc. etc. ... in the process of clearing her good name.”


You still haven't posted any evidence. Is the report of the Ethics Counsellor a public document? Is it available on-line or in an electronic format?


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
pookie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11357

posted 20 June 2008 10:37 AM      Profile for pookie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sean in Ottawa:

This is the start and the end of the opening post-- about Robert MacBain- that's the difference.


Sean, I agree with what you've said in this thread. It's a bit cringe-worthy to try and mask this as a real political discussion. It's just a big pile on meant to piss off Robert. Robert's admittedly narrow understanding of what would be acceptable political discourse on babble is beside the point.


From: there's no "there" there | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
It's Me D
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15152

posted 20 June 2008 10:51 AM      Profile for It's Me D     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Since as I have said before I have no interest at all in the MP in question or the local riding-level politics being discussed my interest in this thread has been exclusively the question of what is appropriate on babble and how Michelle and the other moderators are supposed to adjudicate this.

quote:
This is the start and the end of the opening post-- about Robert MacBain- that's the difference.

Now that is a good point; and reading that first post again I think you are right.

However as this is the reason the thread could be considered inappropriate there is no reason why Robo couldn't open a thread to discuss his displeasure with his local MP and simply not mention Robert. That would be fine yes?

I think perhaps Sean is right that the moderators should shut this discussion. Robo is free to make another thread without referencing Robert. I'd suggest editing the OP, but we are too far in now for that.


From: Parrsboro, NS | Registered: Apr 2008  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10579

posted 20 June 2008 11:21 AM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As much as I appreciate the supportive interventions of Sean in Ottawa, I think he missed the point completely.

Robo didn’t start this thread to aggravate me.

He started it in an effort to undermine the incumbent Liberal MP in his (or perhaps the immediately-adjacent) riding.

And, given that I am her husband and spokesman, he offered the false claim that I had invited him to do so.

I would have no problem with a news release that said:

“Maria Minna has failed Beaches-East York’s progressive voters,” NDP candidate Marilyn Churley said today.

That’s fair game.

What I do object to is a thread on babble with the title “Maria Minna has failed Beaches-East York’s progressive voters” followed by posts by Churley supporters like Farnival who said “canvassing for Marilyn a few months ago, i used the line at the door that she wanted to provide better representation than the current Liberal MP.”

Give me a break.

This isn’t a “political discussion”.

This is Churley’s supporters campaigning on her behalf on babble.

It is flat-out electioneering and it is wrong.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 20 June 2008 11:34 AM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
What exactly do you think is the purpose of Babble. No electioneering on this site!!! Are you delusional this site is constantly used by the Liberals, NDP and Greens to do exactly that. There are no free rides for Liberals on this site sorry you don't like it.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 20 June 2008 11:51 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:

...He started it in an effort to undermine the incumbent Liberal MP in his (or perhaps the immediately-adjacent) riding....


and your point is? if the incumbent Liberal MP had a voting record that was in any way defenseable, or matched her public quotes, then she wouldn't be able to be undermined by...the horror!...babblers!

why does being a supporter of a particular candidate disqualify me from commenting on a sitting MP that does diddly in my opinon to benefit the riding she was elected to represent?

if that's the case you, as her spokesman, are disqualified too.

ooooh, the power we wield! it's clearly gone to my head. i must lay down now and drink some water.

you really don't seem to have the slightest grasp of what this forum is for or about.


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Scott Piatkowski
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1299

posted 20 June 2008 11:54 AM      Profile for Scott Piatkowski   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
And, given that I am her husband and spokesman, he offered the false claim that I had invited him to do so.

Really? In the other thread

quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:

Argue against her policies or the positions that she takes if you want.

That's exactly what he has done. And you invited him to do so.

quote:
This isn’t a “political discussion”.

This is Churley’s supporters campaigning on her behalf on babble.

It is flat-out electioneering and it is wrong.


Whereas, what you're doing on babble (frequently attacking Marilyn Churley, I might add) is what?


From: Kitchener-Waterloo | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 20 June 2008 12:00 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
He just wants to extend Jeff Houses call to ban all socialist posters to include all NDP posters as well. We can't have debate in a democracy the people might learn something. Attacking a sitting MP for their record this is such an outrageous act it should be banned from all public discourse.

Just say no to criticism of MP's and get back to Picking Maria.

The Problem with Maria

[ 20 June 2008: Message edited by: kropotkin1951 ]


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10579

posted 20 June 2008 12:16 PM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To Scott Piatkowski:

1.) My postings about Maria Minna are ALWAYS in response to statements made about her by others on babble.

I have never been the first to post anything about her.

2.) I invite you to give me two examples of me “frequently attacking Marilyn Churley”.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 20 June 2008 12:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Okay, here's the deal.

People are allowed to discuss politicians and whether they're doing a good job or not. Even if one of those politicians' spouses happen to post on babble. Even if babblers are working for that person's opponent in a campaign.

That's just the way it is and that's the way it has always been on babble.

If this thread had been started simply to say, "Hey Robert, your wife sucks, nyah nyah," then yeah, I would have a problem with that. But this thread was started with substantive comments, and while Robert did not ask directly for a new thread to be started about his wife's performance in office, he did state in another thread that he would prefer that people discuss her performance to personally attacking her.

So, Robo started a thread about her performance, acknowledging Robert's request in the opening post.

This board is packed full of people who are active in probably every political party in Canada. Everyone here is constantly talking about political campaigns they're involved with, their opponents, politicians, etc. They always have.

That is not going to change, so you're just going to have to live with it.

If you have a problem with this, take it to rabble reactions. But it's time to stop derailing this thread with metadiscussions about whether babblers are allowed to criticize politicians or to be partisan on here. The answer is, yes, of course they are.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Robert MacBain
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10579

posted 20 June 2008 02:25 PM      Profile for Robert MacBain     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The moderator has ruled in favor of singling out one Liberal MP out of about 95 to account for the strategy adopted by her Leader on a series of votes.

The fact that the questions are being raised by supporters of her opponent in Beaches-East York has been ruled irrelevant.

In that case, continue the "political discussion" without me.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 20 June 2008 02:43 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:

In that case, continue the "political discussion" without me.

Eminently reasonable.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 20 June 2008 06:28 PM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
The moderator has ruled in favor of singling out one Liberal MP out of about 95 to account for the strategy adopted by her Leader on a series of votes.

The fact that the questions are being raised by supporters of her opponent in Beaches-East York has been ruled irrelevant.

In that case, continue the "political discussion" without me.


well robert, that would be me, so far after 19 posters aside from yourself that have weighed in here, i'm the only one that has identified myself specifically as a supporter.

note that singular modification. supporter. not supporters.

and the questions i asked, because generally the others made quite definitive statements, were, what exactly does MP Minna list as her accomplishments in the riding? and you have, as her self identified spokesperson, not said a single word in that regard.

is that because i'm right? she hasn't done anything of note, nor can she reconcile her voting record with her public statements?

i'll be over here while you compile your notes.


From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 20 June 2008 08:32 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:
A political discussion is one thing, Michelle.

Having Marilyn Churley's supporters use babble to undermine support for Maria Minna is something else again.

This is a Beaches-East York issue that should be confined to the usual political brochures, flyers and websites.

No one candidate should have a thread on babble with the specific purpose of taking political shots at an incumbent.


This gets more ridiculous by the post.

Yes, Robert. It is a political site.

And yes, Robert. Your wife is a politician.

In a previous thread listing extensive horde of disgraced Liberative abstainers, Maria Minna was one of the herd.

You chose to single her out to defend her. Not the whole gang of lazy Liberative abstainers. Just the one.

She's a politician. She's fair game on a political site. That's how political sites work, you see.

That's how free speech works, you see. One of those values that Liberatives pretend to believe in.

If Maria (or Karen Redman, or Ujjal Dossanjh, or Bob Rae, or Scott Brison or anyone of the lazy abstainers) do not care to be the subject of public discussion, if they do not wish to be held accountable for their inaction by Canadian citizens, they have an option.

They are free to resign.

And they should have a care not to let the Commons doorknob hit them in the arse on the way out.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Robo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4168

posted 23 June 2008 04:43 PM      Profile for Robo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robert MacBain:

And, given that I am her husband and spokesman, ...

...

This isn’t a “political discussion”.

This is Churley’s supporters campaigning on her behalf on babble.

It is flat-out electioneering and it is wrong.


I see. So the person who self-identifies as the "spokesman" for a Liberal MP think he should be allowed to post what he sees fit to defend that MP with impunity. But supporters of Marilyn Churley (yes, I canvassed for Marilyn as a provincial member, but didn't do so in the last federal campaign since I was occupied elsewhere) that write posts here pointing out the hypocrisy on Maria Minna campaigning like a progressive at election time but failing to actually cast votes in the House when it mattered are "flat-out electioneering". As many pointed out above, since when is advocating on behalf of a candidate of choice not one of the many things that is done on Babble on a quite regular basis?

More to the point, under what definition of "electioneering" are your comments calling posts in the previously-referenced thread about how unfair it was for people to post that Maria Minna was absent from a vote not electioneering, but my comments are electioneering?

And while we're at it, Krago has twice asked you to provide links to the report of the Ethics Commissioner that you claim absolve Maria Minna of wrongdoing. I have not been able to find it on-line to read for myself. Are you willing to respond to his polite questions and provide the link so readers can judge for themselves, rather than relying on the opinion of a self-declared "spokesman" for the MP in question?

[ 23 June 2008: Message edited by: Robo ]


From: East York | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Robo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4168

posted 30 September 2008 03:26 PM      Profile for Robo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So folks, what's the latest in Beaches-East York?
From: East York | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 30 September 2008 03:45 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
NOW article on Beaches-East York

quote:
“I’m as left as any NDPer,” she tells me. “I just choose to do my politics in such a way that I can get things done.”

From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 30 September 2008 09:28 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:

“I’m as left as any NDPer,” she tells me. “I just choose to do my politics in such a way that I can get things done.”



Perhaps someone can explain to me how skulking behind the curtains instead of voting in the House of Commons gets things done.

No sensible progressive should waste their vote on the hypogrits.

The First Liberal act of cowardice:

There follows 40 further Liberal acts of cowardice, culminating in . . .

The 42d Liberal act of cowardice.

The entire set of 42 acts of Liberal cowardice can be found beginning
here.


From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Robo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4168

posted 05 October 2008 12:47 PM      Profile for Robo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the lighter side of endless hours of campaigning, check out You gotta get up mighty early to keep up with Marilyn Churley. From Mike Ford of Moxy Fruvous fame. Hokey but fun!

[ 05 October 2008: Message edited by: Robo ]


From: East York | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Uncle John
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14940

posted 05 October 2008 03:41 PM      Profile for Uncle John     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I sincerely hope Churley beats Minna in Beaches-East York.

Some friends of mine who live in that riding say that her performance as an MP has been truly Minimal.


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Krago
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3064

posted 05 October 2008 04:39 PM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shouldn't that be 'Minna-mal'?
From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
flight from kamakura
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13562

posted 05 October 2008 07:10 PM      Profile for flight from kamakura     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
wow, i can't believe some guy would get on here and post notes about his wife.

anyway, i hope minna loses (churley would be a lot better mostly because she's an ndper, but also just generally), but barring something bizarre, i think she's got this one in the bag. not to say that folks shouldn't work hard, just that the demographics are working against the good guys in this one.


From: Montreal | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 05 October 2008 08:19 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How are the demographics against the NDP? They came within 3000 votes in B-EY last time and they're very likely to take it this time.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 05 October 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The "demographics" are the same ones that produced an NDP landslide win in the same riding in the provincial election a year ago. Minna edged Churley by 2,000 votes in '06 (about 20,000 to 18,000), but that was an election where the Liberals got 40.5% of the vote across Ontario and the NDP had 19.6%. This time the Liberal vote across the province is likely to tank to 30-35% max and the NDP will get 20-22% or more.

A rising tide raises all ships and a falling tide lowers all ships.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Malcolm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5168

posted 05 October 2008 09:24 PM      Profile for Malcolm   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Though the tidal tables show that the rise and is not exactly the same at every port.
From: Regina, SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Robo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4168

posted 12 October 2008 07:22 AM      Profile for Robo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anyone have a last minute prediction? (Beyond the predictions at the Election Prediction web site, operated by Maria Minna's campaign manager...)
From: East York | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged

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